William Plumlee

TOSH YOUR WELCOME AND WHEN YOU GET A MOMENT..PLEASE ..IF AND WHEN...THE GUNSMOKE ODOR THAT LINGERED IN THE AREA AS I BELIEVE YOU MENTIONED IN A PAST THREAD AS YOU CLIMBED THE ENBANKMENT WOULD YOU HAVE THOUGHT THAT COULD HAVE BEEN LINGERING FROM THE PARKING LOT AREA SHOWN IN CANCELLARE...THANKS...B

Bernice: I have no problem with the postings of your pictures. Good work. As to the smell of gun smoke and the markings in the photo, you are right on. I first noticed the smell as we approached the truck with the man in the back or standing next to the truck. At first I thought the odor had drifted on the wind from the north knoll because all the people were running toward that knoll. The south parking lot was my second thought. However, I did not connect that a shooter, or shooters, had been located there, because Sergio and I had checked that area earlier and thought it to be clear of people. We crossed over the tracks in a slanted movement because of the switching tracks which would have made walking over them very difficult. After crossing the tracks we cut back south and crossed down into the west side of the south end of the underpass the into parking lot which was muddy. Sergio fell down the slippery slope and was full of mud when we got to a waiting car. (51 or 52 Ford)

I hope this helps in some way. The best to you. Tosh

 

If there was a shooter on the south side of the underpass and he was located in the south wedge shape of the winged banister he would not be seen from the location by the railroad worker. The angled banister and the raised concrete pillar would have prevented this.

As to the train passing that was some minutes after the shooting as confirmed by the train logs and switching yards logs, I was told this some years ago by SAC Check Middleton of the Denver FBI at Buna Vista Colorado in 1964.

Interesting Tosh, I remember you telling me you were visited from time to time in Buena Vista by FBI (and perhaps CIA/MI), but never knew any of them told you any details of the events that went on in Dallas. I thought they were there to ask you things, and mostly to make sure you stopped 'talking' about 'Dallas' - or you'd not see the light of day again. Amazingly, soon after Tosh was released [i believe it was after another year, correct me if I've forgotten] he was not only out of prison, but had been given a huge 'loan' with no provisions for having to pay it back [!] by a one desk, one man 'bank'. With this 'loan' Tosh purchased or leased [forget] one or more aircraft and started flying off-the-shelf missions again. Hey T, ever pay back that 'loan'? 

Pete: Nice to hear from you. It was not quite as simple as your recap. It was not "prison" it was a state reformatory at Buna Vista on a charge of a fifty dollar "no account check". Judge Finsilver of District #10 sentenced me to a "term" in the Colorado State Reformatory after I had been extradited from south Florida to Colorado at a cost to the State of Colorado of $2800. Shortly after that sentencing Judge Finsilver was appointed to a position as a Federal Judge. I was transfered to Buna Vista from the Denver County Jail in April of 1964 after being in lockup from January of 64 in Florida.

(note: I was arrested in Florida soon after we got back from Dallas, November 25,1963 my birthday and the day JFK was buried. I was sent back to Loxahchee, near West Palm Beach Florida on the 26th. I was extradited to Colorado around January of 1964 and put in the Denver County Jail to await sentencing on the $50 no account check which, by the way, as you know, was never produced in a court of law.., or ever located for that matter.)

While in Buna Vista's State Reformatory I was visited four times by the Denver FBI and twice by people from Washington D.C. In those conversations I was told to stop talking to the Warden Wayne K. Patterson about the assassination or I would, "never get out of jail, or see the light of day again". Most of the conversations were the agents telling me how wrong I was in my recap of the events of that day.

As to the train crossing the overpass? I had mentioned previously to the FBI that there were trains and freight cars in the railroad yard before the shooting. Check Middleton SAC FBI, told me I was wrong that the train crossed the bridge after the shooting. I told him I never said the train was crossing at the time of the shooting and that his report was wrong. At that time, about January or February I believe there was talk about the forming of the Warren Commission to investigate the assassination. I was held in lockup until shortly after that commission completed their work. I am not sure of the actual release date from Buna Vista. I believe we checked that out when you and I were in Denver together.., when you were working with Tom Wilson on the south knoll photo.

In reference to the money as a loan and the aircraft? That was some years later, 1969-70. I was given a new credit rating at the Denver Credit Board and the Dun and Bradstreet in order to get a loan to start a business in Denver. I bought two aircraft a Cessna 172 and a Cessna 310 and based them at Jefferson County airport It was agreed I would use these aircraft on a "lease to" agreement using my new company as cover for the use of the aircraft in "Drug Interdiction" operations in behalf of the State and Federal narcotics programs. My company Plum-Lee Corp and Consolidated Pipelines, Inc. were operating companies and also used as "cut outs" as cover in those undercover operations. The loans ( total of a $125,000) were arranged to me as personal loans by the Jefferson County Bank of Lakewood Colorado, which were mostly paid back by the operating companies, that is until the IRS step in and shut both of those companies down for back taxes and bankrupt me and the companies.

I divorced and moved to Phoenix Arizona and became involved in a series of undercover operations with the Arizona "Tri State Drug Task Force", and the Phoenix Organized Crime detail, using them as cut outs for the Federal Government in various undercover operations as a pilot on those missions to Mexico. Soon came the Iran contra affair and thats another story.

As to Kennedy? Point being. I was in lockup all through the Warren Commission on a fake no account charge and released soon after the Commission had completed their work. And at that time I did make a deal with CIA and the Administration, which went into effect a few years later 1970-79.

I know this is perhaps more detail than anyone, or perhaps you Peter, care about, but the slant of your recap left a sour taste on my mouth and I kind of got the wrong impression. Perhaps, because it sounded much like the FBI recapping some things I have said in the past. I know I have told you that I never intend to get re-involved in the JFK matter again... BUT when I read and see things others say I have said and slant them in a way that is not true I will respond for the sake of history. The best to you my friend. Tosh

THANKS KATHY...''Note: Each time this south knoll information comes up; the thread is turned back to the "Badgeman" and other north side of Plaza matters and those theories and doctored photos. Why is it so important not to really look into that area of the south side? Each time that area is brought up it is past by or diverted into something else not related. It was the same in 1964, and again in 1974, and again in 1978, 81, 91, and now 2006. It was the same with the FBI, Secret Service, Congressional and Senate investigators of many years ago. It seems to be very important to focus on the North side and by pass the South. Why? Is it perhaps that is the area that best confirms the fake story played by the government of where the shooters or assassins really were?

Also note. I have put out a lot of information these past few years and months; most of it backed up with documentation and preponderance of evidence. None of that information is addressed directly. Each time it is moved away from and something else is put in place to investigate. What really happens is I get investigated and threated by federal sources, including IRS. I find this strange if we say we are truly looking at all available information in reference to who shot Kennedy. If we say we want the truth-- then should we not really look into this south area with a fine tooth comb?''

Tosh, MANY THANKS MANY FOR STEPPING BACK IN..I THINK MANY APPRECIATE YOU DOING SO FOR THE SAKE OF THE RESEARCH AGAIN TAKE CARE..B

B

Thanks for posting the pictures. I am really rushed right now but will comment on them soon. Until then: notice the curve in Elm Street and the underpass bannister and slanted portion thereof. Study that location and get back to me on what you think as to a shooter being seen by the railroad workers on the west end and north of that south location.... Thanks again Tosh

The police officer (Foster or White, I forget which) who was stationed on the west side of the underpass over Elm Street was in a position to see a south knoll shooter. So you know what? He testified that a freight train was passing at the time of the assassination, so he couldn't see anything to the east (or of course to the south) at the time of the shooting.

Why would this officer testify to a passing train that everyone knows wasn't there? The only reason I can think of is that he was protecting himself. He saw something at the south end of the underpass, but he wanted the conspirators to know that he didn't see it. So he invented a train that blocked his view.

and ron this makes perfect sense what common sense coming into this ...oh my... b re the list of peoples below i have read both that 11 and 14 were rrworkers...fwtw..

If there was a shooter on the south side of the underpass and he was located in the south wedge shape of the winged banister he would not be seen from the location by the railroad worker. The angled banister and the raised concrete pillar would have prevented this.

As to the train passing that was some minutes after the shooting as confirmed by the train logs and switching yards logs, I was told this some years ago by SAC Check Middleton of the Denver FBI at Buna Vista Colorado in 1964.

THANKS KATHY...''Note: Each time this south knoll information comes up; the thread is turned back to the "Badgeman" and other north side of Plaza matters and those theories and doctored photos. Why is it so important not to really look into that area of the south side? Each time that area is brought up it is past by or diverted into something else not related. It was the same in 1964, and again in 1974, and again in 1978, 81, 91, and now 2006. It was the same with the FBI, Secret Service, Congressional and Senate investigators of many years ago. It seems to be very important to focus on the North side and by pass the South. Why? Is it perhaps that is the area that best confirms the fake story played by the government of where the shooters or assassins really were?

Also note. I have put out a lot of information these past few years and months; most of it backed up with documentation and preponderance of evidence. None of that information is addressed directly. Each time it is moved away from and something else is put in place to investigate. What really happens is I get investigated and threated by federal sources, including IRS. I find this strange if we say we are truly looking at all available information in reference to who shot Kennedy. If we say we want the truth-- then should we not really look into this south area with a fine tooth comb?''

Tosh, MANY THANKS MANY FOR STEPPING BACK IN..I THINK MANY APPRECIATE YOU DOING SO FOR THE SAKE OF THE RESEARCH AGAIN TAKE CARE..B

B

Thanks very much Bernice for posting those pictures. If you notice pictures #4 and 5 you will see clearly the area where I believe the "south knoll shooter" was located. A few years ago I was told that the railroad workers would have seen a shooter if one had been on the triple underpass with a rifle. At that time I took issue with that statement and pointed out that a shooter would not have been seen because of the slanted wing of the banister which would have prevented the workers from seeing anyone at that location. ( if you notice there is a wedge and a tall pillar at the south end of the underpass. This is where Sergio and I crossed over the railroad tracks from our location some 75 feet or so east of this area at the time of the shots. This was about perhaps one minute or so after the shots had been fired)

As Sergio and I approached this area we did smell a strong oder of gunpowder about where the man standing near the pickup truck was parked on Commerce street. At the time I thought the smell of gunpowder had drifted on the wind from the north knoll near the picket fence. I also thought other shots had came from the south knoll area, perhaps somewhere near the south knoll parking lot.

Your pictures clearly points out the area I was referencing some years ago. However the debate went on that a shooter would have been seen by all the railroad workers on the bridge at the time of the shooting and the threads drifted off into theories and speculations. At the time, I also mentioned that the railroad tracks were higher from the base of the bridges foundation in 63 than what they were today and that would account for the man standing on the opposite side of the underpass, who some had said was found in a photo. He was referenced as a "seven foot man". and I mentioned that the raised rail road tracks would account for this height variation. However, the experts prevailed. That logic was thrown into the mix before any of the pictures, of which you have posted, were shown.

On another note. I was also told by the Forum and others, that a shot fired from that location would not have cleared the windshield or the crossbar and too, it would have hit Jackie. I also took issue with those statements and mentioned that JFK's head was slightly turned to his left at the time of the shots and the angle of fire I believed, would have cleared the windshield. I did point out the slight curve in Elm Street which I claimed would have put the President more in line with a fatal front head shot from the south and that shot would have missed Jackie, because of the curve in the street and the President facing slightly to his left.

All these recollections were also told to John Winer and Dick Mc Call of Senator John Kerry's staff in close door (under oath) testimony in 1990 and 91 concerning the Iran-contra matter of which all that testimony was classified " Committee Sensitive, Top Secret", and remains so today.

( note: I was asked by the committee to give them a time line of my activities of the years of my involvement in covert activities in behalf of the Federal Government, of which I did and I had to incorporate the, "flight to Dallas", in that timeline. John Winer did have a problem with the portion concerning that day in Dallas and told me so after the testimony. I was asked in May of 1991 to come back to Washington D.C and reconfirm the sections of my testimony concerning the Kennedy Assassination, of which I did and was told at that time that the section concerning JFK was also now classified)

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imo doug and ]all that would be a great source if we could have threads of both tosh's info of a south side of elm thread and this one to continue..there has been much information being released and offered by doug in this thread am i now surprised it has been halted to some degree..no not in the least it really was going too well, seems that happens not faultng anyone but that does seem to happen often...please continue tosh if possible.and if you do want your information out there if not it cannot be looked into any further can it..??.tosh thanks for your information it is always of great interest to many others....why pack up your bags so quickly AND LEAVE STAY AND stART A NEW THREAD COPY AND PASTE all YOUR INFO AND TEACH THOSE WHO DO WANT TO ACCESS SUCH, or let them down, your call..best b..please excuse the caps and muddled typing..txs

Thanks very much Bernice for posting those pictures. If you notice pictures #4 and 5 you will see clearly the area where I believe the "south knoll shooter" was located. A few years ago I was told that the railroad workers would have seen a shooter if one had been on the triple underpass with a rifle. At that time I took issue with that statement and pointed out that a shooter would not have been seen because of the slanted wing of the banister which would have prevented the workers from seeing anyone at that location. ( if you notice there is a wedge and a tall pillar at the south end of the underpass. This is where Sergio and I crossed over the railroad tracks from our location some 75 feet or so east of this area at the time of the shots. This was about perhaps one minute or so after the shots had been fired)

As Sergio and I approached this area we did smell a strong oder of gunpowder about where the man standing near the pickup truck was parked on Commerce street. At the time I thought the smell of gunpowder had drifted on the wind from the north knoll near the picket fence. I also thought other shots had came from the south knoll area, perhaps somewhere near the south knoll parking lot.

Your pictures clearly points out the area I was referencing some years ago. However the debate went on that a shooter would have been seen by all the railroad workers on the bridge at the time of the shooting and the threads drifted off into theories and speculations. At the time, I also mentioned that the railroad tracks were higher from the base of the bridges foundation in 63 than what they were today and that would account for the man standing on the opposite side of the underpass, who some had said was found in a photo. He was referenced as a "seven foot man". and I mentioned that the raised rail road tracks would account for this height variation. However, the experts prevailed. That logic was thrown into the mix before any of the pictures, of which you have posted, were shown.

On another note. I was also told by the Forum and others, that a shot fired from that location would not have cleared the windshield or the crossbar and too, it would have hit Jackie. I also took issue with those statements and mentioned that JFK's head was slightly turned to his left at the time of the shots and the angle of fire I believed, would have cleared the windshield. I did point out the slight curve in Elm Street which I claimed would have put the President more in line with a fatal front head shot from the south and that shot would have missed Jackie, because of the curve in the street and the President facing slightly to his left.

All these recollections were also told to John Winer and Dick Mc Call of Senator John Kerry's staff in close door (under oath) testimony in 1990 and 91 concerning the Iran-contra matter of which all that testimony was classified " Committee Sensitive, Top Secret", and remains so today.

( note: I was asked by the committee to give them a time line of my activities of the years of my involvement in covert activities in behalf of the Federal Government, of which I did and I had to incorporate the, "flight to Dallas", in that timeline. John Winer did have a problem with the portion concerning that day in Dallas and told me so after the testimony. I was asked in May of 1991 to come back to Washington D.C and reconfirm the sections of my testimony concerning the Kennedy Assassination, of which I did and was told at that time that the section concerning JFK was also now classified)

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Bernice, where it is circled is erroneous to me. To our left stand 2 men it seems. Also, there seems to be a man south and on the level of the top of the underpass. It's either a man or it's the top of the lamp pole.

Kathy C PS KATHY THE CIRCLED INFO MEN ABOVE WAS DONE BY TOSH SOME YEARS AGO IN THE CROP OF THE CANCELLARE SO THERE YOU GO WHAT DO I KNOW NADA...B

KATHY THE CIRCLED WHATEVER ARE NOT OF MY DOING TO ME IN FACT I ALWAYS THOUGHT IT WAS A LIMB I AM POSTING SOME OF WHAT HAS BEEN GATHERED DOWN THROUGH THE YEARS HOPEFULLY SOME MAY BRING FURTHER INFORMATION ABOUT AS IT MAY POSSIBLY JAR SOME PEOPLES MEMORIES...AND PERK UP OTHERS THINKING CAPS..TO STEP IN WITH THEIR INFORMATION..SO MUCH HAS BEEN LOST OVER THE YEARS AS WEB SITES FALTERED OTHERS BOUGHT UP AND THE WORK DISAPPEARED SOME DELIBERATELY IMO...SO I TRIED TO GATHER AS MUCH AS I COULD RE THIS INFO HOPING SOME DAY IT MAY HELP BRING SOMETHING TO LIGHT ALONG WITH THE VERY THOROUGH AND GOOD WORK OF DOUG AND ALSO TOSH'S WHO HAS TRIED MANY TIMES TO GET HIS OUT FOR ALL.SO SAVE WHAT YOU CAN,IF INTERESTED EVENTUALLY IT IS GONE AND NEVER SEEN AGAIN THIS AREA HAS ALWAYS BEEN TO ME ONE OF SUCH... .B

imo doug and ]all that would be a great source if we could have threads of both tosh's info of the south side of elm thread and this one to contine..there has been much information being released and offered by doug in this thread am i now surprised it has been mucked up..no not in the least it really was going too well, seems that always happens not faultng anyone but that does seem to happen often...please continue tosh if possible.and if you do want your information out there if not it cannot be looked into any further can it..??.tosh thanks for your information it is always of great interest to many others....why pack up your bags so quickly AND LEAVE STAY AND stART A NEW THREAD COPY AND PASTE YOUR INFO AND TEACH THOSE WHO DO WANT TO ACCESS YOUR INFO, or let them down, your call..best b..

In your picture: Notice the upper slight curve in Elm Street. The Limo had turned slightly to the left with the street, putting it a few degrees to the south.., not due west as some have claimed. The Limo was pointing directly toward the south side of the underpass. Where was JFK facing at that moment? If he had also turned his head slightly to his left this would line up with the alleged south side kill shot and the windshield hole.

Bernice:

I agree about Tosh I just do not want to lose focus on the thread I have going. That is why I opened a new thread to begin with. Plumlee is extremely important! I hope he will watch the you-tube presentation and see what a sniper would have viewed from the south side of the underpass with my video. I do want to get the questions I addressed in my long posting and I believe the dialog and responses will be important.

Take care,

Doug

Bernice...Threads are ALL MUCKED UP on purpose by certain persons who are here not to enlighten but to obfuscate.

I name no names. By their fruits ye shall know them.

Jack

YES JACK I KNOW OF THE MUCKERS CLUB AND THEIR ROTTEN FRUIT...THANKS KATHY FOR GOING TO THE TROUBLE Of ARRANGING A SEPARATE THREAD IMO THAT'S GREAT SO As the separate but similar in some areas of information can be perused.to see what gels and comes together.....b again excuse caps many thanks...

EXCELLENT, Doug. I am with you! There WAS a hole. It very likely came from the south knoll.

The government hid the hole and tried to produce windshields with cracks but no hole.

I agree with ALL of your research, but am not 100 percent sure that the windshield bullet was

the throat bullet, because there is no evidence to support a bullet in the throat...since none

(that we know of) was found.

Jack

Jack:

I do not disagree with you but I believe there was an entrance wound to Kennedy's throat LIKELY caused by the shot through the windshield. Mantik speculates that a glass fragment caused by the bullet from the windshield may have caused that entrance wound. It is a reasonable hypothethiis.

Best,

Doug

Hi Doug

Quick question. Where would the bullet have ended up theoretically if it did miss according to Mantik's hypo? Would it have wound up entering some structure within the limousine or missed all occupants and limo altogether and flew off behind the motorcade?

Cheers

Lee

Lee:

Thank you. Mantik would have to answer that. I believe there are many potential possibilites including that a bullet did enter the throat and exited the back. Robert Groden had told me that he always believed that the back wound was an exit wound. However, I do not have a definitive answer and have always stated that I believed that I could prove that a bullet was fired through the front of the windshield with the "likely" result that it caused the wound to the throat. It is interesting to note Nick Prencipe's account of Wiliam Greer's statement to Nick that night, "Nick ,you should have been there. Shots were coming from everywhere and one came through the windshield and almost hit me." With making one assumption, that is that the person was trying to hit Kennedy, and if Greer was correct, the hole would have been in the vicinity of Altgen's 6 and would have had to have been fired from the vicinity of the south side of the overpass. Josiah, yes, I believe that Frazier and the FBI did describe the area correctly, but unlike Taylor of the Secret Service, not only omitted the mention of the hole but took the most unusual step of describing the negative and mentioning that there was no hole. In thirty one years of viewing police reports I have never seen one mention something that was not there. As can be seen in my youtube presentation from 1999 the negative could have been described ad infinitum, i.e., there were no crayon marks, grass stains, etc. found.

Best,

Doug Weldon

Doug for what its worth. Some years ago Jay harrison mentioned that he had documentation that a shot did indeed hit the windshield and he also stated he had proof that another shot was fired from the south parking lot which missed and ended up in the grass on the N/E side of the north knoll. As a result of those conversations Jim Marrs meet with me in the Plaza where I scanned with a metal detector looking for the bullet allegedly fired from the south parking lot. Perhaps you might like to ask Jim Marrs about that day and the safe house apartment building behind the Beckley rooming house, which we also visited that day. Jim and Jay met, sometime later in Austin, at Harrison's place where Jay told me he showed Marrs the documentation which proved the windshield shot and the south parking lot missed shot. Jay was very proud of this find and told me he wanted to share this find with Marrs. Jim and I met at Jay's place in Austin where Jay had all his research files of which he went over with Jim. Also Jay had just met with Nigel Turner in Dallas and again in Austin. I am not sure if the south shot documentation was told or shown to Nigel. This date was shortly after Mary Ferrel had past away.

Reproduced from http://www.unknowncountry.com of Feb. 19, 2010:

This Week on Dreamland: The Kennedy Assassination

Doug Horne was the Chief Military Analyst for the Assassination Records Review Board that was delegated to study the Kennedy assassination by Congress in 1992.

Here, Jim Marrs interviews him, and he says, quite frankly, "there was massive fraud in the evidence," and that the autopsy results released after the autopsy at Bethesda Naval Hospital are false, and conceal an exit wound that prove the fact that he was struck by a bullet from the front, as well as the ones that hit him in the back of the head.

This will be the most extraordinary interview about the Kennedy Assassination that you have ever heard. Listen as a man in a unique position to know the truth talks about how the real autopsy reports have been destroyed, and the available documents are forgeries. He outlines exactly how he discovered this, and creates an airtight case, and we have this message from Whitley Strieber: "Please, folks, do not let the Kennedy Assassination go. Listen to this and continue to demand that your representatives take action. The Review Board came about because of public pressure on Congress. Demand the truth!"

To listen to the interview, click on the link below:

http://www.unknowncountry.com/media

Someone should transcribe this so it can be referenced and quoted as a source.

Otherwise it is just a media show.

The House Oversight Committee, chaired by Rep. Ed Towns (D. NY) is responsible for oversight of the JFK Act, specifically the Subcommittee on Information Policy, NARA and the Census chaired by W. L. Clay (D. St. Louis).

COPA has been lobbying this committee for over ten years now [since June 2001 -http://jfkcountercoup.blogspot.com/2009/12...university.html]

and while we had no chance of any oversight while the Republicans controlled the committee, we now have an opportunity to convince Towns and Clay that this is really an important issue.

We have targeted Sunshine Open Government Week - March 14-20 as the time to rally the troops to get them to contact their representatives and ask them to talk personally to Towns and Clay, both of whom are supportative of JFK Act hearings.

In the meantime, John Judge and Sen. Kerry have been working on getting the same subcommittee to hold hearings on the proposed MLK Act, and the subcommittee staff have penciled in a tentative joint JFK Act - MLK Act hearing for one day during Sunshine Week that might actually happen.

While such a hearing will not investigate who kill JFK, it will focus on the JFK Act, the work of the ARRB, and the records that were destoryed, are missing and wrongfullywithheld, and there's enough of that to keep them busy for months.

That will be a great start, and it will obtain new sworn testimony on the assassination for the first time since the review boad was in action.

Doug Horne, Jim Lesar, Jeff Morley, John Newman, Peter Dale Scott and others should be called to testify, or else it will be just a fake show and tell by the usual suspects - Max Holland, Steve Tilley, Mark Zaid and other appologists for the coup.

You can make a difference, read more about it:

http://jfkcountercoup.blogspot.com/2009/06...s-petition.html

Get on the JFK Act Oversight Bandwagon - Sign the petition:

http://www.petitiononline.com/JFKACT/petition.html

Contact your Representative and ask them to support the Oversight of JFK Act, as I know a few members of the forum have already done.

Sign up as a follower at my blog and I'll keep you posted on the progress of the petition.

http://jfkcountercoup.blogspot.com/

Bill Kelly

bkjfk3@yahoo.com

Seems I have been saying there was fraud and evidence had been tampered with many years ago. I am on record many years ago say what has now been stated by one who who was in charge of some of those investigations. In Fact some of these same people put the word out that the south knoll story was nothing to investigate and a fabrication, that " there was no front shot from the south knoll.

Perhaps Jim Marrs or Peter Lemkin might like to comment on this now..., in view of the following interview of Jim Marrs.

From the interview of Jim Marrs:

".... Doug Horne was the Chief Military Analyst for the Assassination Records Review Board that was delegated to study the Kennedy assassination by Congress in 1992.

Here, Jim Marrs interviews him, and he says, quite frankly, "there was massive fraud in the evidence," and that the autopsy results released after the autopsy at Bethesda Naval Hospital are false, and conceal an exit wound that prove the fact that he was struck by a bullet from the front, as well as the ones that hit him in the back of the head.

I must agree, your information re the south side shot imo is entirely a different subject in it's own in the area of tosh and his observastions in being there that day etc.but are ..two separate fields but similar and relating to each other in a very important way... and we need it to come together but not if tosh leaves though he has always been very open and wanting such looked into and released so it could have been time for the researchers to have had both side in otherwards but not if his bag has been packed, imo tosh i cannot understand your doing so, in the past i have broken a thread with other info and have been asked the same to start a new thread, and have done so, so have many others so you could also. it's no big deal....if you do want all out there so it can possibley be worked on and connected..sorry to repeat myself but this kind of thing cheeses me off and it shows as a rule...take care all i shall too...best b..

a couple of others b..the second one if from tosh's approximate area...of view ...

Seems I have been saying there was fraud and evidence had been tampered with many years ago. I am on record many years ago say what has now been stated by one who who was in charge of some of those investigations. In Fact some of these same people put the word out that the south knoll story was nothing to investigate and a fabrication, that " there was no front shot from the south knoll.

Perhaps Jim Marrs or Peter Lemkin might like to comment on this now..., in view of the following interview of Jim Marrs.

".... Doug Horne was the Chief Military Analyst for the Assassination Records Review Board that was delegated to study the Kennedy assassination by Congress in 1992.

Here, Jim Marrs interviews him, and he says, quite frankly, "there was massive fraud in the evidence," and that the autopsy results released after the autopsy at Bethesda Naval Hospital are false, and conceal an exit wound that prove the fact that he was struck by a bullet from the front, as well as the ones that hit him in the back of the head.

This will be the most extraordinary interview about the Kennedy Assassination that you have ever heard. Listen as a man in a unique position to know the truth talks about how the real autopsy reports have been destroyed, and the available documents are forgeries. He outlines exactly how he discovered this, and creates an airtight case, and we have this message from Whitley Strieber: "Please, folks, do not let the Kennedy Assassination go. Listen to this and continue to demand that your representatives take action. The Review Board came about because of public pressure on Congress. Demand the truth!"

Thomas Graves! Back from the grave? Just kidding. Welcome back.

The "ballistics guy" was Al Carrier, who unfortunately no longer posts.

The fatal head shot coming from the south knoll area makes the most sense to me. Much better trajectory for a shooter than the north knoll, plus I've never been able to buy a shot from the north knoll (particularly the hat man position) hitting JFK in the right temple, then turning right to blow out the right rear of his head, instead of basically continuing straight. But what do I know about ballistics? I guess bullets can do anything, especially when you don't want them to.

I have had my issues with a grassy knoll shooter delivering "the head shot" from that angle, also. But if you read the excerpts from Doug Horne's book (put up by Bill Kelly, with permission) - in particular Horne's conclusion involving multiple finishing shots including a tangential shot to the rear from the right - there's some compelling material for a grassy (north) knoll shot along with a frontal from the south knoll.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...5&start=345

Look for Kelly's post with Horne's chapter heading, "What it all Means"

I wish Tosh would look at this and comment if he cares to.

sorry I posted the following on another thread by mistake:

"... • One shot from the right front (probably fired from well down the grassy knoll fence line, near where the triple overpass meets the knoll, at or near the storm drain behind the stockade fence) entered high in the President’s forehead above the right eye and just below his hairline, and exited high in the posterior skull, just left of the midline. ...".

My viewpoint (tosh): If you really look at the photos and film you can see that the President was looking slightly toward his left toward Jackie (S/W)... couple that with the slight curve in the road to the left at that point (about 2 or 3 degrees) and the downward slop of the road, puts the kill zone to the left toward the south side of the underpass of the above stated spot .. said to be around the storm drain and the west north knoll and fence. JFK's head had moved a few degrees to his left and the slight curve added a few more degrees. I believe this would be a right frontal shoot. Perhaps, a front throat shot from the south side of the underpass either over the windshield or through the windshield. I believe one shot near the south parking lot of the south knoll missed and perhaps is still behind the kill zone in the grass on the east side of the north area of the plaza.

As to a shooter from the storm drain? The distance to the kill zone would not be a shot that could be made. The angle would have been better than thirty degrees and would be a right back (above the right ear) frontal shot, because the President was looking slightly to his left when the fatal shot was fired.

http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/galle..._Knoll_Area.jpg

This post has been edited by William Plumlee: Yesterday, 10:53 PM

Oh my,a three head shot conclusion,with a possibilility of a fourth? that is one more then mine.Bill,what is Doug`s conclusion on the throat wound?This remarkable wound has caused me the most grief (the depth,trajectory & path)

OK, OK. There were multiple shooters. It WAS a Conspiracy. We ALL know that. So I surrender. But who were the actual PERPS?

Who were they? Why did they do it? Who paid them? And where are they now? And what did they do both before and after the fact of the JFK murder?

STAY TUNED or you might miss something. The answers to your questions are on the wind and soon to arrive.

Baby steps first... then the running to the finish line starts. All things come in there own time and season, and that time is very near my friend.

Mac Wallace was one of the assassins, although he was not one of the point men, but just an instrument or tool.

Its time to focus on Texas and its politics of the time..., not the mob..., not Cuba... I know the military thought Texas was the source, that was so many years ago... that is why we were sent in. But what do I know. I'm just an 800 lb Guerilla sitting on a fence.

imo doug and ]all that would be a great source if we could have threads of both tosh's info of a south side of elm thread and this one to continue..there has been much information being released and offered by doug in this thread am i now surprised it has been halted to some degree..no not in the least it really was going too well, seems that happens not faultng anyone but that does seem to happen often...please continue tosh if possible.and if you do want your information out there if not it cannot be looked into any further can it..??.tosh thanks for your information it is always of great interest to many others....why pack up your bags so quickly AND LEAVE STAY AND stART A NEW THREAD COPY AND PASTE all YOUR INFO AND TEACH THOSE WHO DO WANT TO ACCESS SUCH, or let them down, your call..best b..please excuse the caps and muddled typing..txs

Thanks B... Again.., I understand. Its not that I want to get things out there and I never intended to jump the thread. I thought those past post which went nowhere long ago, should be brought to light in the windshield thread in relation to the south knoll shooter. I just thought it might help a new breed of researcher to gather additional information. You know as well as I things get lost when new threads are started and the subject matter is viewed as "competition". I assure you and Doug that was not the case. Most of what I have had to say is out there and perhaps if there is any interest someone could pull it all together. If I did that it would be considered as "self serving" and my motives would be challenged. Its happened before and as a result the meat of the matter is lost. Again thanks for your interest and the very best to you and your research. T

Is this the Cancellare photo of the South Knoll you're referring to, Tosh?

Kathy C

Is this the Cancellare photo of the South Knoll you're referring to, Tosh?

YES... However, in order not to high jack this thread and offend some... I will not respond further. I see things different than some in reference to the windshield and the crack/hole: In my view I look at things a little different than some, because I was there.

Information only becomes intelligence, after its been deciphered: All information is important regardless of the source or how it is obtained.... sorry my information does not fit in this exchange on this thread. However, I believe it is important to the total picture and leads to the motive behind the shooting and those involved.

I am not here to 'tickle ears' or play word games. Thanks for posting the picture. Although, its out of place at this location I am sure some will see it as a step in the right direction as to a possible hole in the windshield. FWIW.

Mr. Plumlee:

I do want to get to the south knoll issue. Please watch my you-tube video from Minnesota in 1999. I knew Tom Wilson was working on the Cancellaire photo when he died. I know far more than you imagine. I think if we can get there again we can tie many things together and this issue won't just die as it appears to have happened before. If you want to start a parallel thread I would be glad to contribute. I need to establish the best evidence that there was a shot through the windshield before I can even address where the shot originated. I would be glad to find out more if you can send me a message through the forum.

My best,

Doug Weldon

I understand. We are on the same page. One point I must " point out" B Vernon or Wim never "owned" me or my story, in spite of what they claimed or threatened. I have never supported their theories, nor the theories of Joe West. I have tried to make this very clear after they started twisting the facts to fit their agendas. They did nothing except to try and block the total story and the facts thereof as I recalled them, because they could not make them fit into their theories.

I am glad to see you are working in the direction you are going.., and I might add I do not want to interfere with your work... that said, lets move along. If I can be of help when the time comes just let me know.

Oh my,a three head shot conclusion,with a possibilility of a fourth? that is one more then mine.Bill,what is Doug`s conclusion on the throat wound?This remarkable wound has caused me the most grief (the depth,trajectory & path)

"... • One shot from the right front (probably fired from well down the grassy knoll fence line, near where the triple overpass meets the knoll, at or near the storm drain behind the stockade fence) entered high in the President’s forehead above the right eye and just below his hairline, and exited high in the posterior skull, just left of the midline. ...".

My viewpoint: If you really look at the photos and film you can see that the President was looking slightly toward his left toward Jackie (S/W)... couple that with the slight curve in the road to the left at that point (about 2 or 3 degrees) and the downward slop of the road, puts the kill zone to the left toward the south side of the underpass of the above stated spot .. said to be around the storm drain and the west north knoll and fence. JFK's head had moved a few degrees to his left and the slight curve added a few more degrees. I believe this would be a right frontal shoot. Perhaps, a front throat shot from the south side of the underpass either over the windshield or through the windshield. I believe one shot near the south parking lot of the south knoll missed and perhaps is still behind the kill zone in the grass on the east side of the north area of the plaza.

As to a shooter from the storm drain? The distance to the kill zone would not be a shot that could be made. The angle would have been better than thirty degrees and would be a right back (above the right ear) frontal shot, because the President was looking slightly to his left when the fatal shot was fired.

http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/galle..._Knoll_Area.jpg

Is this the Cancellare photo of the South Knoll you're referring to, Tosh?

Kathy C

Is this the Cancellare photo of the South Knoll you're referring to, Tosh?

YES... However, in order not to high jack this thread and offend some... I will not respond further. I see things different than some in reference to the windshield and the crack/hole: In my view I look at things a little different than some, because I was there.

Information only becomes intelligence, after its been deciphered: All information is important regardless of the source or how it is obtained.... sorry my information does not fit in this exchange on this thread. However, I believe it is important to the total picture and leads to the motive behind the shooting and those involved.

I am not here to 'tickle ears' or play word games. Thanks for posting the picture. Although, its out of place at this location I am sure some will see it as a step in the right direction as to a possible hole in the windshield. FWIW.

And now, here comes a tale to be investigated, and some photos to compare, also:

"White House Technical Service Rep. F. Vaughn Ferguson [...] whose involvement with the limousine before and after the shooting is well-documented, writes in part: '...The leather…is from the automobile in which John F. Kennedy, President of the United States, was assassinated in on November 22, 1963...Four days after the assassination the White House upholsterer and I removed this leather at the White House. The light blue leather is from the center of the rear seat…The spots on the leather are the dried blood of our beloved President John F. Kennedy…' '' (As quoted just above this post.)

I apologize for not being able to put up the photos that I am citing below, but --

1) There is a Dillard photo of the limo taken (from behind the rear seat) at Love Field after the assassination. It shows a clean limo seat, and just a little bit of blotted-out stain on the carpet in Kennedy's side of the footwell, as if some unfortunate had spilled a nice glass of tokay on the president. This photo was recently up on this forum.

2) There are other photos of the limo seat in the WH garage, covered in gore, and also showing the disputed Lambchop puppet/chrysanthemum bouquet.

Which of these photos is accurate? Can someone post these for comparison? The Dillard photo was recently used to "establish" that there was no hole in the windshield, so the topic is important to this thread.

David:

Again, this is so odd. I actually spoke with workers in Ohio who replaced the leather and Whitaker was clear that the vehicle was stripped to metal on November 25, 1963. It is literallly like a shell game.

Doug

Not to take away from anyone... BUT what about the "alleged" south knoll shooter? The Windshield hole or crack is a very interesting topic... so is the background leading up to the "alleged hole in the windshield.

Sometime ago I posted an overhead picture of Delay Plaza and drew a "line of shot" from the south side of the underpass and parking lot. Perhaps someone would care to locate that picture and post it and compare it to the hole or crack in the windshield. Remember the road curves and dips as it goes under the underpass. Shoots came from our left . I know some do not want to hear this... BUT... I post this for no other reason that to make some aware of this little known background.... I am sure this will kill this thread.... no Pun, intended.

OLD POSTINGS:

Mar 28 2007, 06:58 AM

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QUOTE (Charles Drago @ Mar 27 2007, 10:51 PM)

I wanted to revisit this topic, if only to move it to the top of the list with the hope of stimulating additional postings.

Charles

Charles and all, I have been exploring things behind the scenes [not posting them as I do them on the Forum]. I have, as I said, some images by Tom and have located four other much larger clusters of them. If this were to really be moved forward it would need a core group with a lead person; a well organized plan of how to collect, preserve, validate the methodology of and present to the public (and in what forum?!); some money with which to do this; a permanent archive for these items that will be publicly accessable yet highly secure against tampering or theft, etc. Anyone with ideas toward these ends is certainly welcome to post those ideas or contact me by email. When things cystalize a bit more behind the scenes I'll post a bit more. Tom was highly secretive during his lifetime, but he made copies and placed them in secure places. I'd also like to make here a list with URLs, if available, of all presentations Tom did, as well as all recolections people have of meeting and talking with him about his technique, etc.

One interesting fact I came accross in what I've been working on is that Tom gave a very large amount of his conclusions and enhancements to the FBI! It would be most interesting to file a FOIA on those. All of that material exists in copies elsewhere, but to see if the FBI claims to have them, has done anything with them, passed them on to any other agencies, tested his enhancement process, etc. Anyone out there who can work with me on that for a fast-track FOIA contact me by email.

Tom was quite naive [iMHO] to the end of his life that goodness still could be found within the varous agencies of the USG and his presentation and 'donation' of these materials to the FBI he thought was sufficient to prove to them, and thus the Nation, that there had been a massive conspiracy and coverup [perish the thought!] and he was very disappointed that the FBI, as well as no other Government agencies, never got back to him over the materials he tendered. I'd almost bet that those materials were looked at carefully for the purposes of denying and refuting them and would like to try to find those analyses, if they exist. Tom died not long after his donation of these materials to the USG.

Peter

This post has been edited by Peter Lemkin: Mar 28 2007, 07:12 AM

William Plumlee

Feb 15 2008, 04:15 AM

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QUOTE (Jack White @ Mar 8 2007, 03:14 PM)

QUOTE (Peter Lemkin @ Mar 8 2007, 09:37 PM)

It is late here and I'm tired....and will try to put down a few thoughts

briefly and come back to put down more in a day or so. I'm probably one of the or the only researcher here to have had some of my work and photos 'enhanced' by Tom Wilson. I'm looking at them here on my desk. I've never put them on the internet...and likely not about to. I know some about Tom's computer program and there is much I don't. He was too secretive. There are those who could help, but I can't [yet] pry information out of them. I'll not mention who they are here and now. He was approved by the courts as an expert witness in forensics, using his techniques on forensic materials. Cyril is too busy with his own problems to help much on that now. What to say...I had him use his program on the ultra-high-quality Cancellare photo I got via the back door. He never explained totally how his system worked and thus what one gets [or sees] is, yes, hard to verify. Basicly, he had his system look for spectral patterns characterisic of specific materials: glass, metal, wood, cloth, etc. He claimed he could even 'see'/distinguish variants of these. OK, I can 'see' these in his enhancements...but without the independant test on a non-controversial item who is to say if the new image is an artifact or a real 'enhancement' of what was there. My problem and I'm trying to 'lean' on those who could answer....thus far with no success. My gut feeling is his technique worked, but not to the level he claimed in all cases. I have some very interesing 'images' here I can overlay on the original Cancellare and thus orient what is where...but ....too tired to go into it all now...tomorrow....more.... Peter

I am familiar with Tom's work for Peter, because it was I who persuaded Tom to take a look. However, he was very secretive

with both Peter and me about what he found. He would only tell me that he found TWO MEN in the tree shadows. I never saw

his work on this, and frankly was doubtful, since darkroom enhancement of the area showed nothing. He would not show Peter

what he found either, and soon his relations with Peter soured, because I feel he thought Peter was being too "pushy" and impatient

for progress...plus he was busy building his lawsuit against the govt.

Jack

What does the south knoll photo really mean? Two people in the shadows of a tree? It means nothing unless you take into account the story behind the photo and how it came into being and the background of the people in question..

(1) the location of these two people were first told to the FBI in Buna Vista Colorado in April and May of 1964. The FBI was not at all interested in the story and said there was nobody there because they had pictures of the aera and it did not show anyone at that location.

They also said their investigation proved I was at another location in Florida at the time of the assassination. I was not. ( THE Cancellara Photo had not surfaced at this early date, 1964) It was also stated by the FBI that if I (Plumlee) did not quit talking about Dallas and my wild stories concerning the assassination I would never get out of jail ( I was in lock up from about two weeks after the JFK until sometime shortly after the WC completed its findings. I was never interviewed by the WC)

Some years later (1980) Barnard Finsterwald Jr and Gary Shaw had a copy of the Cancellara photo which appeared in Gary Shaws early or first book (can't recall name about 1976 ??) I was shown that picture for the first time and I pointed out to them where Sergio and I were standing at the time of the shots. (near and within the shadows of the fork tree. I drew them a map of our route out of Delay Plaza. Shortly after that my house in Grant Colorado was burned down and I was beat up at a Evergreen Colorado Bar and had ten stitches in right forehead and eye. A few months later, I was shot at in my truck and ran off the road. There were passengers in the truck at the time who have given statements to law enforcement)

Some years later (1990 ??) Jim Maras and Peter Lambkin and I started research on this subject and others concerning JFK and OPS. It that point all hell broke loose and the FBI hounded me for years and IRS took all my holdings and bank accounts for back taxes) We, the three of us continued to work on trying to prove I and Sergio were there that day and at that location on the south knoll when the shots were fired Around that time Jim Maras introduced me to Jack White and the photo came up and I was under the impression that Jack White was going to look into the picture. I was told he had done that and he failed to see anything there. Soon thereafter Peter Lambkin retained Tom Wilson to take a look at the picture. Carl Which also looked at Tom's work, I was told. I was also told he (Wilson) had found two people near or at the forked tree, but he was working on it . Shortly after that and just before he died The FBI contacted me in Denver Colorado asking about the picture and they showed me a copy and wanted me to mark the location where we were standing. I refused. They also showed me an affidavit which my brother had signed that stated I was in Dallas early AM visiting my step-mother his mother. I refused to help them in any way because I was pissed at them because of the IRS matter. I told them to shove it and to talk to the CIA if they wanted to know anything about what I did and had done, including Iran-Contra operations. I felt I was being set up.

Now that is a very rough background as to the events which leads to this south knoll investigation and the photo.. (For the sake of time, I have been about as short as I Can make this)

The reason this is important to the investigation, is because it proves two people were there and when you take into account the background of these two people then it should be looked into. I have always felt that photo is an important link and should be looked into, perhaps more so than the north knoll..

How and why the software works and who did what back when is really not the issue.

Again. What does it prove if two people are proved to be at that location at the time of the shots?.

Add that to the "Tall Tales" of the Plumlee story and what have you? Include the new release documents and all the new evidence and take a hard look at what Plumlee has said before the new releases were released.. If two people are prove to be there, then why were they there? To kill the President? Well could they have been at that location for other reasons? I have been called "one of the assassins". Why? Could my story be true if it is proved I was at that location... Why one of the assassins? Why not one who tried to stop it?

Preponderance of the evidence over the years and the new declassified documents, I feel should be looked into in order to get the trail to point to the real assassination. That is the issue I feel.

Seems each time we start to go into a matter we get drawn away from the subject and our egos get in the way.

I say I saw JFK get assassinated. I saw we were sent in to stop it or as I have said long ago "ABORT IT"

I do not expect anyone to even read this long post about an old mans forty year plus story.. The JFK matter has been shut down and contaminated by dis information. This story also will die on the vine because this story goes beyond reason and it also conflicts with others theories and their life work has been dedicated to their theories and there is not room for a true tall tale... it goes against the norm and all the experts. If the real story did get out or released then all that has been written would have to be sent to the deep six... and the experts would not be of much help in any new investigations... we would have to breed another group of new experts and investigators, because all the old experts would have discredited themselves by their own works.

Peter Lemkin

Feb 15 2008, 08:27 AM

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QUOTE (William Plumlee @ Feb 15 2008, 04:15 AM)

Carl Which also looked at Tom's work, I was told. I was also told he (Wilson) had found two people near or at the forked tree, but he was working on it . Shortly after that and just before he died The FBI contacted me in Denver Colorado asking about the picture and they showed me a copy and wanted me to mark the location where we were standing. I refused. They also showed me an affidavit which my brother had signed that stated I was in Dallas early AM visiting my step-mother his mother. I refused to help them in any way because I was pissed at them because of the IRS matter. I told them to shove it and to talk to the CIA if they wanted to know anything about what I did and had done, including Iran-Contra operations. I felt I was being set up.

Tosh, Who is Carl? Also, I know you were 'spooked' that the FBI had various materials and that they approached you at that point. I know think I understand, in part, what that might have been about. Before Tom Wilson died he had arranged to meet with some fairly high-level FBI agent at their Dallas offices. There he gave a presentation several times repeated of his technique and what he had uncovered about the assassination, using it. He then turned some of these materials over to the FBI - from which they went into a black hole. You are apparently the only person to have seen part of them when those FBI men came to you and asked for you to verify parts of what Wilson had told them. Wilson, in his naivete, had assumed the FBI would take his years of hard work and 'solve' or make major progress on Dallas. As we all know they have done nothing before, during or since. They closed the case on or about 11/14/1963.

William Plumlee

Feb 16 2008, 01:07 AM

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QUOTE (Charles Drago @ Mar 27 2007, 01:51 PM)

I wanted to revisit this topic, if only to move it to the top of the list with the hope of stimulating additional postings.

Charles

Charles. Its been almost a year of this thread and as yet nothing has been done in reference to any of the photos of the south knoll and others. The only thing which has been accomplished is the threads go nowhere and the subject matter goes into the black hole.

What is most important? How the work was done or what the work of Wilson's pointed out. As to the south knoll photo and if shown that two people were there in the shadow of the forked tree, then what does that mean? What questions will this raise if it is prove that there were two persons at that location? We will never get to that point. Its been over a year of back and forth as to the photo work and how it was or was not done. Seems we miss the real point of why these two people, if real, were there on the south knoll. Why were they there and too, why were they not interviewed. The story behind the photo is a interesting story when you mention that the FBI knew about these two people many years ago. Why were they not questioned even after one of these persons stated they were there?

I too, brought this thread forward, but it too will die on the vine and the subject matter will not be addressed. What would these two people in the photo, if real, have to say on the subject of what they saw and why they were there? To me that is the real issues. I understand the work has to be validated. However, we speculate on everything else that comes down the pike in reference to the assassination of JFK.... but this matter seems to be "Taboo" for whatever reasons.

For the benefit of doubt lets say there were two people there... what would that really mean? Would what these two persons have to say really mean anything? Did they hear any shots? From where? How many? What were they going to do? Were they there to kill the President? OR were they there for other reasons? We drift off into speculations on many matters as to JFK. But as to the two people on the south knoll we stay away from that subject and if we push we are attacked and called liars. But the FBI does come to one of them asking many questions about the south knoll and they take things out of your burned house. Why?

More south Knoll which went nowhere and the thread went dead much like thr hole in the windshield some years ago:

QUOTE (William Plumlee @ Oct 22 2006, 05:25 PM)

NEW TOPIC: being the other thread was diverted and a little off track:

Now I am going to "step out of line" again and ask a few questions that some do not want asked. I will not go into Central America. After all this is a JFK investigative forum. Right?

Have you noticed how everyone stays away from that "south knoll shooter", or that south knoll picture. Also who brought the "south knoll shooter", and the picture into this investigation?

"... a shot came from behind and to the left of us...". (previous quote)

"... we checked the south parking lot but did not notice anything". (previous quote)

"... the shots ECHOED through out the plaza"... ". (previous quote)

"... some years ago I set off a firecracker at the south end of the triple underpass and watched people look toward the north side of the Plaza and at the north end of the underpass. I think that was because of the echo effect from the tube like tunnels of the underpass...". (previous quote)

".... the Limo was directly in-line with the south shooter and the Presidents head was turned toward the south, Jackie (south knoll south end of underpass) ".

Note: Each time this south knoll information comes up; the thread is turned back to the "Badgeman" and other north side of Plaza matters and those theories and doctored photos. Why is it so important not to really look into that area of the south side? Each time that area is brought up it is past by or diverted into something else not related. It was the same in 1964, and again in 1974, and again in 1978, 81, 91, and now 2006. It was the same with the FBI, Secret Service, Congressional and Senate investigators of many years ago. It seems to be very important to focus on the North side and by pass the South. Why? Is it perhaps that is the area that best confirms the fake story played by the government of where the shooters or assassins really were?

Also note. I have put out a lot of information these past few years and months; most of it backed up with documentation and preponderance of evidence. None of that information is addressed directly. Each time it is moved away from and something else is put in place to investigate. What really happens is I get investigated and threated by federal sources, including IRS. I find this strange if we say we are truly looking at all available information in reference to who shot Kennedy. If we say we want the truth-- then should we not really look into this south area with a fine tooth comb?

Tosh,

I have believed in the South Knoll shooter for quite some time, and felt somewhat exonerated when I first saw Sherry G's analysis. And you're right, in that when the topic comes up, it invariably leads back to the North Knoll. Frankly, there are as many potentials in the Cancellare photo of the South Knoll parking lot as there are of the North Knoll area photos. For anyone who has been or will be in Dealey Plaza, or has seen some recent photos taken from the south end of the railroad overpass facing the TSBD, you'll see something you generally don't see from other angles. Stand in Elm St near the head shot X facing west and look straight ahead. You'll be facing the west end of the South Knoll, and not down Elm towards the Stemmons entrance. I would suggest the forum's resident photo experts take a look at the background of Cancellare with the same zeal as they have of Moorman, Betzner, Willis, the Z film, etc.

I have some photos, but unfortunately can't post here due to limited attachment space.

RJS

This post has been edited by Richard J. Smith: Oct 23 2006, 01:29 PM

Mr. Plumlee:

You are correct. This is killing the thread and I am not sure why you are doing this. I believe in a south knoll shooter and have written and spoken extensively about it. However, though I am deeply interested in this and would comment I am requesting that you begin another thread with this tpic. Thank you.

Doug Weldon

Sir; This is all connected to your windshield thing which connects to the south knoll... sorry you can't see this. I will back off and let you solve this can of worms, being as you seem to know my motives... sorry I offended you Adios, Plumlee

I have moved this topic because it did not fit well within the topic from which there had been some previous discussion. Barb and Jerry have examined some further evidence and have agreed to contribute to the exchange. I believe the prior discussion has been constructive and has demonstrated that disagreement can be expessed passionately, at times, without personal attacks. I submit, unequivocally, that it is a fact that a shot was fired through the front of the windshield and second that there is a strong possibility that the shot resulted in an entrance wound to the throat of President Kennedy. I would define a "fact" as testimony or evidence which would convince an impartial body of people that such was true. I sincerely believe that I could have convinced any unbiased jury "beyond a reasonable doubt" that such a shot was fired and that a cover-up occurred at the highest levels of the United States government and that members of the United States Secret Service had to be complicit in allowing the assassination to occur. I have not reached my conclusions lightly or without great concern and disappointment.

There have been a number of people on this forum who have indicated that this is an extraneous issue. I would contend that issues such as this, the alteration of the body, and the manipulation of the Zapruder film, etc., each and of themselves, if proven, would have dramatic impact on the history of our nation. However. I also believe that truth in this matter would be the genesis for providing a positive change for our future.

Thompson, Jerry, and Barb have sought to refute that there was a hole in the windshield. They noted, "Our purpose, as stated in the intro to our article, was to share what had been discussed and learned in a discussion that took place on a yahoo group. We dealt with what had been offered as proofs by Mr. Fetzer who brought others into it, like David Lifton, Rich, White, Healy, etc. We dealt with those issues, those witnesses. And especially given the new documents regarding Taylor we decided to write it all up and share it elsewhere... like on the Ed Forum."

If this was a summarization of the exchange on the group then I have no problem. However, as I have noted. Fetzer, Lifton, Rich, White, Healy, etc. do not speak for me and not knowing what they posted I can neither support or defend any of their propositions. I am not aware that you or any of the people listed ever spoke to any of the witnesses and are not fully aware of everything they said.

I do have to take exception to a couple of your points. First of all, St. Louis Dispatcher newspaper reporter Richard Dudman had NO doubt he saw a hole in the windshield of the Kennedy limo but was unable to get close enough to determine if the hole entered the front or rear of the windshield.

You have questioned the account of U.S. Park police officer Nick Prencipe. I have provided you with a copy of my first conversation with the late Mr. Prencipe and I am willing to address any concerns you might have. I will neither seek to enhance or minimize anyone's account but I believe I can demonstrate that the overall record is compelling. It did concern me that you wrote that none of you had much knowledge about the limousine but yet you were willing to post very definitive conclusions. It bothered me that you characterized two highly trained police officers as "casual observers" and the fact that three experienced police officers, including Nick Prencipe, unequivocally described the hole they witnessed as a "bullet hole." Dr. Evalea Glanges, who was well experienced with firearms, was also unequivocal in describing what she witnessed as a "bullet hole." Charles Taylor of the Secret Service described a hole from which it appeared that "bullet fragments" had been removed. A key witness who you failed to mention was George Whitaker. a man who in 1963 had thirty years of experience working with glass and had been involved with many tests involving guns and glass, was 100 percent certain that he witnessed a bullet hole that penetrated the windshield from the outside to the inside of the windshield. What is ambiguous about Dallas Police Officer Stavis Ellis, considered by his colleagues to have impeccable integrity, stating that he placed "a pencil in the hole?"

I am sincerely astounded by the contention Jerry made that witnesses "could have been found" who saw no hole in the windshield (assuming I guess that they saw the windshield at Parkland) but yet there are at least eight people (nine, if Prencipe is credible} who clearly saw a hole in the windshield! There is not one identifiable person at Parkland Hospital who saw the windshield and stated there was NO HOLE. I would like to use that logic and state I could have found 1000 people who saw the hole. Is there any difference in the logic? The closest evidence to someone not witnessing a hole is when Officer Ellis loudly stated there was a hole in the windshield and a Secret Service agent came up to him and said "That's not a hole, it's a fragment." Ellis loudly replied "It's not a damn fragment, it's a hole."

One of you wrote that "How about the cops? They could have named others who were standing around the limo." There were many civilians shown in the photographs standing in front of the limousine. Two police officers saw the hole. Who else do they need? They corroborate each other. What would cause one to conjecture that they would have known the civilians and personnel at Parkland and would have taken names of all who would have seen the hole while the Secret Service was pushing people away and drove the limousine away? As for Dr. Glanges she did say there was someone with her who saw the hole but when she spoke with me he was in fear for his job if he said anything. Is that reasonable. I believe so, simply based upon the fears, real or perceived, that so many witnesses expressed to me. If he was trying to distort her account would it not have been easier to say that she was by herself and thus no one could contradict her?

Jerry stated "Latter day gilding the lily, perhaps, but outright lie...no. They saw a spot on the windshield. There was a spot there. They thought/speculated/assumed it was, or may have been a complete hole." What witness said they saw a SPOT? All of them said they saw a HOLE! How does Jerry or anyone have the knowledge to say they saw a SPOT or thought/speculated/assumed they saw a hole. If anyone has the ability to get into the mind of all of the witnesses and speak for them it is a skill far beyond anything I have ever known. When I mentioned to Stavis Ellis once that someone questioned whether he saw a hole, his response to me was "Were they there?"

I acknowledge and appreciate the new information you brought forth about Charles Taylor. However, I believe that there has to be some suspicion of someone who wrote in 1963 that he saw a hole, confirmed it in 1975, and then was approached by the government and suddenly an affidavit is signed that he was mistaken and that the windshield he saw then was the same one he saw in 1963 without a hole. Would that changed information be more reliable than those who never changed their accounts? Which would be more reliable, the account he wrote in November 1963 and verified in 1975 or a retraction noted in an affidavit after that time. Do we know that he even wrote that affidavit or if it was given to him by the government to sign? Why was this retraction classified as "Top Secret."

Isn't it somewhat ironic that a similar circumstance happened to Richard Dudman. Like Taylor, he wrote he saw a hole in the windshield. Lo and behold the government flew him from St. Louis to Washington D.C. and showed him a windshield that had no hole. Like Taylor, he renounced his prior position and wrote another article and would never speak about the assassination again and severed his deep friendship with Robert Livingstone. If you saw a hole and then were shown a different windshield by the government would you not be intimidated or even fearful?

There are further problems. The windshield Taylor was shown in 1975 had to be the one you showed in your comparison study in your article by John Hunt. Martin Hinrichs did a detailed study and demonstrated that the cracks were not the same. Jerry himself now questions whether the two windshields in the article are the same. Jerry wrote on this forum "Yes, that's correct. Right now, I don't think any windshield comparison can be conclusive including Hunt's. If we can gather better data at the Archives it might be possible, but right now I'm certain that we really don't know exactly what it is we're trying to compare."

Martin Hinrichs also pointed out a very pertinent fact: "A comparison of this two windshield cracks is nevertheless dominated by the following undeniable principal:

The windshield was kicked out at 11/26/63 by the feet of the Arlington Glass men. And that dominant cross crack should be visible in every photo post to 11/26/63."

There is also evidence that the Secret Service ordered twelve windshields after the assassination for "target practice." Did they need these windshields to attempt to duplicate the damage to the original windshield but without a crack," George Whitaker stated that the original windshield was "scrapped" (destroyed) on November 25, 1963 in Dearborn, Michigan.

I believe there has to be a stronger argument than I "think" all of the witnesses to the hole were mistaken or to state that you are sure that witnesses could be found who did not see a hole, when NO such witness can be presented. I appreciate this exchange. Barb, Jerry, and Josiah have all been very gracious in their responses. Jerry and Barb have now seen further evidence. I respect the intelligence of each of them and each brings a unique expertise to the discussion. I would have preferred that each had responded individually without the opportunity to corroborate with a response, but ultimately it does not make a difference. I am certain that others have shared the position that there was no hole in the windshield evidencing a shot from the front, but those beliefs should be based on more than feelings.

I have discovered many things that I have not yet published but hopefully will get the opportunity to do so in my book. I eagerly anticipate the reactions of Jerry, Barb, Josiah, and anyone. This is not an academic exercise for me nor do I have any interest in any notoriety for myself. I hope to be responsive and seek only truth.

Best,

Doug Weldon

Doug,

" There is not one identifiable person at Parkland Hospital who saw the windshield and stated there was NO HOLE."

FWIW actually there is - DPD motorcycle officer B.J Martin. He says that in a Garrison investigation interview.

Todd

There was one person. A Texas Researcher by the name of Jay Harrison who had a affidavit from a Dallas Police officer who stated there was a hole in the windshield which he saw at Parkland. Jay Harrison had been a DPD investigative officer at the time of the assassination. He was engaged concerning subversive active groups in the Dallas area from 1961-63. I believe he showed those documents to Jim Marrs at Austin Texas before he (Jay) died of cancer. Another researcher has most of Jay's work today. I am not sure if he has that affidavit.

(on a sidebar.... I was told by Jay before his death that the DPD officer was killed in a car accident in Dallas Oakcliff, Texas in 1976.) There is a Texas Ranger in Austin who is the grandson of a murdered person at a golf course who it was alleged had an affair with LBJ's girlfriend, I think... not sure if I got this right. Its from memory

Did Al Carrier ever get around to commenting on the throat wound?

Not that I know of. He was fed up with all the in fighting on this forum and quit the forum in frustration. I have not heard from him in many years. Tim Carrol, who past away a few years ago, was working on some of Al's post and looking into the south knoll shots. Seems at that time some did not want that information to see the light of day. Perhaps because it interfered with their theories or for other reasons only known to them.

John,

On paper, those who provided negative identifications could be accused of having vested interests but ultimately, I was persuaded they were being honest and open with me. I was particularly impressed by how helpful Chavez, Fernandez, Roman and the Morales family were in answering my questions and providing new images (Rita and Sandra are pseudonyms, by the way).

I now believe the two figures in the ballroom are Michael Roman and, probably, Frank Owens. The Bulova connection and the actions of Roman after the shooting are a bit strange but I don't now believe the man with him is Joannides.

The "Morales" identification is so disputed at this stage, I prefer to emphasise that Morales confessed he was in Dallas and Los Angeles and, after talking to his family, they have no alibi for his whereabouts on June 5, 1968. This is significant because generally Morales' family lived with him wherever he was posted, with the exception of his tour of Vietnam and his first year in Laos.

Brad Ayers, Wayne Smith and Ed Lopez are all highly credible and I found their IDs persuasive for a long time. While I personally now doubt it is Morales in the video, the new images of Morales his family provided made Ayers and Smith even more sure of their original IDs. Even if it isn't Morales in the video, his statement that he was there and his implication that he was involved must be followed through as far as possible. What more can be done to pin this down, I'm not sure.

I found the interviews with Morales’ two eldest daughters interesting. On page 462 Rita Morales claims that David Morales was at home on the evening of the assassination of JFK and showed no reaction to the death. This sounds very abnormal and suggests that he was keeping himself under tight control (something that all spooks have to do when the subject matter of an issue concerns their work).

Rita said in the interview that “when he wasn’t drinking, he was a good guy”. The only problem with this assessment is that he was an alcoholic.

Rita also says: “If my father got a direct order to do it, I’m sure he did it. He knew the people who could get the job done.” Doesn’t sound like a “good guy” to me.

If true he was home and showed no reaction, that in and of itself is strange. Everyone had a strong reaction - one way or another!....and he was well known to not like JFK. He also worked for the man - his commander in chief. No reaction is almost a 'reaction' [of covering his real ones] in itself!.......

As someone who was supposed to have kicked Che's head like a football after it had been severed from his body....and many other ' wet jobs', I think we can conclude he was not a 'good guy' except to his friends and family, perhaps. Morales certainly could have done it without any troubled sleep if ordered or if he was one of the plotters. All evidence seems to point to his involvement in both JFK and RFK assassinations and American coup d'etat.

Peter: What about the signed affidavit which Brad Ayers and I signed at your residence in Solano Beach, California about 1991? If I remember right, it covered details about Ayers and our knowing each other at JM/WAVE, Miami Station.., and what he and I knew about operations in Miami and the timeline when we knew it.

Would you care to expand on that certified document and what all was discussed at that meeting before we both went to south Florida. As you know Brad almost got Jim Marrs and I killed when we were down there..., or is it to secret for you to go into today.

Would you care to POST that document/affidavit or explain why you can't?

Thomas Graves! Back from the grave? Just kidding. Welcome back.

The "ballistics guy" was Al Carrier, who unfortunately no longer posts.

The fatal head shot coming from the south knoll area makes the most sense to me. Much better trajectory for a shooter than the north knoll, plus I've never been able to buy a shot from the north knoll (particularly the hat man position) hitting JFK in the right temple, then turning right to blow out the right rear of his head, instead of basically continuing straight. But what do I know about ballistics? I guess bullets can do anything, especially when you don't want them to.

"... Post from Al Carrier some years ago, 2004...( note: I never deleted my post)

"...

Someone mentioned "Al Carrier" and his ballistic work. Here is a series of post dated 2004. They were quickly buried:

"... Al Carrier

Nov 25 2004, 11:46 PM

Post #1

Advanced Member

Group: Members

Posts: 325

Joined: 1-November 04

Member No.: 1814

(" ... Beyond the headshot wound issue, I have also aligned this shot origin with the neck wound and have established it by showing Elm at a higher elevation]at this point and how the shot would have to penetrate the windshield through its trajectory.". ...) note:Found in body of below post

Reference All Carrier's post of Nov. 25, 2004:

"....I have been seriously researching the JFK Assassination for some fourteen years. What I bring into it is a background in weaponry, ballistics, crime scene investigative techniques and an understanding for sniper deployment and procedures. I have never accepted the official version of a lone sniper achieving the feat from a location 60’ above in the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository. Then add to this official account, the capabilities of the weapon and shooter that was accepted by the Warren Commission and later the HSCA, it was ridiculous.

Wound ballistics became an immediate issue when I began researching the Kennedy assassination in order to determine a shot origin. While there is overwhelming evidence in my opinion of a shooter on the north knoll at the time of the assassination, I had issues with this angle of trajectory creating the head wound suffered by President Kennedy. The discovery of Badgeman by Jack White and Gary Mack in the Mooreman Photograph, witnesses who reported hearing shot(s) on the north knoll, Gordon Arnold’s reporting of a shooter there, as well as other sightings of shooters and smoke from that origin, leaves no doubt in my mind that shot(s) were fired from this location. That does not necessarily mean that the head wound was inflicted by this shot origin and in my opinion from my background in weaponry and wound ballistics, I believe that it was not.

There are issues to consider when determining a point of entrance. The greater fracturing of the skull will occur forward of the point of impact as the energy from the penetrating projectile will radiate forward along the trajectory path of the initial penetration point. As seen in the Zapruder film and after the lightening of the top of the head autopsy photos, a large defect was also found high on the head, right of midline and a flap of scalp and partial skull bone was attached to the flap. This is created when the penetration trajectory is shallow below the skull, creating the energy dispersion to push out against the fractured bone.

By noting where the skull fracture and flap begins, it is logical that the point of entry is close to that location. By following the trajectory back to the massive wound in the right portion of the occipital parietal, which was clearly seen at Parkland Hospital by medical personnel, it shows a true line of trajectory and shot origin.

The challenge to this line of trajectory in support of shot origin of the north knoll comes from many researchers and is supported by forensic pathologist Dr. Cyril Wecht. Dr. Wecht believes that a shot fired from the north knoll, striking the right temporal/parietal region of the president’s skull would DEFLECT and turn outward (left), maintaining a wound cavity to the right portion of the skull.

The problem with this is that penetration from a rifle caliber projectile that is traveling in excess of 1800fps and most likely above 2400fps, would not deviate outward, but actually slightly inward through skull penetration. The ratio of diameter v. length of the projectile penetrating through a multi-layed resistant surface, such as skull plating, would actually create a rollover effect through surface penetration. This would cause the projectile to turn slightly inward instead of deflecting upon penetration. This has been proven in wound ballistic testing through the work of Dr. Martin Fackler over the past twenty years and accepted by the NIJ in studies of wound ballistics in order to determine effectiveness in ballistic resistant materials in ballistic vests.

The problem this shot trajectory creates is that it shows a shot origin that is in conflict with the witnesses who made a determination on shot origin by what they heard. This shot trajectory would place a shot origin in the region of the south end of the overpass over some sixty feet to the south knoll parking lot. No witnesses reported hearing a shot from this location, other than one who has came forward as being part of an abort team. This witness I will address later.

With 200 plus witnesses in DP at the time of the assassination and none focusing on shots from this location, most researchers write off the likelihood of a south plaza shooter. They also have concerns with this exposed location. This can easily be explained by a common practice by military sniper teams in both urban and rural environments.

Often, the most ideal location for shot origin, especially on a moving target, is a location that exposes the shooter the greatest. Making the shot is only half the objective, the other is escaping either undetected or without being molested. The military found a practice to overcome this obstacle and it has been termed “Canyon Shoot”. This practice utilizes multiple snipers from locations suited to draw attention to those origins where they cannot be accessed, or by allowing the terrain to confuse the shot origin to the enemy present. The term “Canyon Shoot” was unofficially adopted when Sgt. Alvin York utilized various shot origins and the echo effects of the terrain to fool the enemy into believing they were surrounded, when in fact it was only he who was shooting.

In the case of Dealey Plaza, a shooter firing from the Texas School Book Depository would initially fire and the other shooters in the plaza would cue off the Depository shooter by startle reaction and fire a round immediately on top of the shot fired by the Depository shooter. Witnesses would detect the first sound and roughly identify a shot origin and this would cover the fire of the others shooters, deeper in the plaza. The echo effect of the Plaza would also aid in making the witnesses believe that it was shot reverberation that they were hearing deeper in the plaza. With another shooter firing from the North Knoll, this would direct witnesses along Elm and at the intersection of Elm and Houston to focus their attention on the area between the Depository and the Knoll. By utilizing startle reaction to cue simultaneous fire from three locations, three shots could easily sound like one.

The closest known witnesses to the South End Overpass/South Knoll position were James Tague who was positioned on Commerce under the overpass, two Dallas Police Officers and nine railroad employees atop the underpass over Elm, and Tosh Plumlee and an associate who were on the bank of the South Knoll. Tague did not hear a shot originate from overhead or to his left and rear, but his perception could easily have been hampered by the extreme echo effects of all shots reverberating under the underpass. The persons atop the underpass did not detect the shot fired to their left, but their attention was on the approaching motorcade and their attention was drawn to the shots fired from the north knoll, which was in the direct of the approaching motorcade and of nearly equal distance in comparison to the south origin. Plumlee and his associate, who he has reported as being sent to Dallas as part of an assassinations abort team, clearly heard a shot fired from behind them, that would put it in line with the shot origin I have been describing. Plumlee was also ex-military and was their to stop an assassination attempt, so he would be prepared for the sounds he was about to hear. He apparently also recognized the ideal location of the south knoll region as that is where he chose to station himself.

The most recent challenge to the South End of the Overpass/South Knoll shot origin comes from Sixth Floor Museum Curator Gary Mack. Mack has come forward with new reporter Bob Jett, who has claimed to have been in the South Knoll Parking Lot eating his lunch at the time of the assassination. Jett has stated that he saw no assassin and heard no shots fired from that origin. Jett was working at the time of the assassination. My question as to his credibility and presence is why did he not immediately report on air, witnessing the assassination? Why was he not called upon by the Warren Commission to testify as to what he saw and did not see? The Warren Commission directed questions at most witnesses as to whether they heard or saw anything suspicious in this region. Wouldn’t Jett have been the nail in the coffin they needed to disprove a shooter there?

Another established researcher who supports my belief of shot origin from the south end of overpass/south knoll region, is nationally recognized Bloodstain Pattern Analysis Expert and Instructor, Sherry Gutierrez. Sherry has presented at JFK Lancer November in Dallas Seminars in 2001 and 2003. In 2003, she partly focused on this shot origin. She has also produced threads on the Lancer Forum regarding this.

Beyond the headshot wound issue, I have also aligned this shot origin with the neck wound and have established it by showing Elm at a higher elevation at this point and how the shot would have to penetrate the windshield through its trajectory. This also explains the compromised velocity that would result in a shallower wound path. I have been challenged on this through photos including Altgens 6 and 7 and have provided arguments on both. Because this is already a rather complex subject, I will not go into detail on the throat wound.

Al Carrier ...". (End of Post)

I have moved this topic because it did not fit well within the topic from which there had been some previous discussion. Barb and Jerry have examined some further evidence and have agreed to contribute to the exchange. I believe the prior discussion has been constructive and has demonstrated that disagreement can be expessed passionately, at times, without personal attacks. I submit, unequivocally, that it is a fact that a shot was fired through the front of the windshield and second that there is a strong possibility that the shot resulted in an entrance wound to the throat of President Kennedy. I would define a "fact" as testimony or evidence which would convince an impartial body of people that such was true. I sincerely believe that I could have convinced any unbiased jury "beyond a reasonable doubt" that such a shot was fired and that a cover-up occurred at the highest levels of the United States government and that members of the United States Secret Service had to be complicit in allowing the assassination to occur. I have not reached my conclusions lightly or without great concern and disappointment. (Etc., etc......)

Best,

Doug Weldon

-----------------------------------------------------

Thanks very much for this contribution and others as well. I and various colleagues have long been of the belief that the entrance wound occurred exactly as you descirbed. I found this posting informative and compelling. Look forward to your book.

John Gillespie

Someone mentioned "Al Carrier" and his ballistic work. Here is a series of post dated 2004. They were quickly buried:

"... Al Carrier

Nov 25 2004, 11:46 PM

Post #1

Advanced Member

Group: Members

Posts: 325

Joined: 1-November 04

Member No.: 1814

(" ... Beyond the headshot wound issue, I have also aligned this shot origin with the neck wound and have established it by showing Elm at a higher elevation]at this point and how the shot would have to penetrate the windshield through its trajectory.". ...) note:Found in body of below post

Reference All Carrier's post of Nov. 25, 2004:

"....I have been seriously researching the JFK Assassination for some fourteen years. What I bring into it is a background in weaponry, ballistics, crime scene investigative techniques and an understanding for sniper deployment and procedures. I have never accepted the official version of a lone sniper achieving the feat from a location 60’ above in the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository. Then add to this official account, the capabilities of the weapon and shooter that was accepted by the Warren Commission and later the HSCA, it was ridiculous.

Wound ballistics became an immediate issue when I began researching the Kennedy assassination in order to determine a shot origin. While there is overwhelming evidence in my opinion of a shooter on the north knoll at the time of the assassination, I had issues with this angle of trajectory creating the head wound suffered by President Kennedy. The discovery of Badgeman by Jack White and Gary Mack in the Mooreman Photograph, witnesses who reported hearing shot(s) on the north knoll, Gordon Arnold’s reporting of a shooter there, as well as other sightings of shooters and smoke from that origin, leaves no doubt in my mind that shot(s) were fired from this location. That does not necessarily mean that the head wound was inflicted by this shot origin and in my opinion from my background in weaponry and wound ballistics, I believe that it was not.

There are issues to consider when determining a point of entrance. The greater fracturing of the skull will occur forward of the point of impact as the energy from the penetrating projectile will radiate forward along the trajectory path of the initial penetration point. As seen in the Zapruder film and after the lightening of the top of the head autopsy photos, a large defect was also found high on the head, right of midline and a flap of scalp and partial skull bone was attached to the flap. This is created when the penetration trajectory is shallow below the skull, creating the energy dispersion to push out against the fractured bone.

By noting where the skull fracture and flap begins, it is logical that the point of entry is close to that location. By following the trajectory back to the massive wound in the right portion of the occipital parietal, which was clearly seen at Parkland Hospital by medical personnel, it shows a true line of trajectory and shot origin.

The challenge to this line of trajectory in support of shot origin of the north knoll comes from many researchers and is supported by forensic pathologist Dr. Cyril Wecht. Dr. Wecht believes that a shot fired from the north knoll, striking the right temporal/parietal region of the president’s skull would DEFLECT and turn outward (left), maintaining a wound cavity to the right portion of the skull.

The problem with this is that penetration from a rifle caliber projectile that is traveling in excess of 1800fps and most likely above 2400fps, would not deviate outward, but actually slightly inward through skull penetration. The ratio of diameter v. length of the projectile penetrating through a multi-layed resistant surface, such as skull plating, would actually create a rollover effect through surface penetration. This would cause the projectile to turn slightly inward instead of deflecting upon penetration. This has been proven in wound ballistic testing through the work of Dr. Martin Fackler over the past twenty years and accepted by the NIJ in studies of wound ballistics in order to determine effectiveness in ballistic resistant materials in ballistic vests.

The problem this shot trajectory creates is that it shows a shot origin that is in conflict with the witnesses who made a determination on shot origin by what they heard. This shot trajectory would place a shot origin in the region of the south end of the overpass over some sixty feet to the south knoll parking lot. No witnesses reported hearing a shot from this location, other than one who has came forward as being part of an abort team. This witness I will address later.

With 200 plus witnesses in DP at the time of the assassination and none focusing on shots from this location, most researchers write off the likelihood of a south plaza shooter. They also have concerns with this exposed location. This can easily be explained by a common practice by military sniper teams in both urban and rural environments.

Often, the most ideal location for shot origin, especially on a moving target, is a location that exposes the shooter the greatest. Making the shot is only half the objective, the other is escaping either undetected or without being molested. The military found a practice to overcome this obstacle and it has been termed “Canyon Shoot”. This practice utilizes multiple snipers from locations suited to draw attention to those origins where they cannot be accessed, or by allowing the terrain to confuse the shot origin to the enemy present. The term “Canyon Shoot” was unofficially adopted when Sgt. Alvin York utilized various shot origins and the echo effects of the terrain to fool the enemy into believing they were surrounded, when in fact it was only he who was shooting.

In the case of Dealey Plaza, a shooter firing from the Texas School Book Depository would initially fire and the other shooters in the plaza would cue off the Depository shooter by startle reaction and fire a round immediately on top of the shot fired by the Depository shooter. Witnesses would detect the first sound and roughly identify a shot origin and this would cover the fire of the others shooters, deeper in the plaza. The echo effect of the Plaza would also aid in making the witnesses believe that it was shot reverberation that they were hearing deeper in the plaza. With another shooter firing from the North Knoll, this would direct witnesses along Elm and at the intersection of Elm and Houston to focus their attention on the area between the Depository and the Knoll. By utilizing startle reaction to cue simultaneous fire from three locations, three shots could easily sound like one.

The closest known witnesses to the South End Overpass/South Knoll position were James Tague who was positioned on Commerce under the overpass, two Dallas Police Officers and nine railroad employees atop the underpass over Elm, and Tosh Plumlee and an associate who were on the bank of the South Knoll. Tague did not hear a shot originate from overhead or to his left and rear, but his perception could easily have been hampered by the extreme echo effects of all shots reverberating under the underpass. The persons atop the underpass did not detect the shot fired to their left, but their attention was on the approaching motorcade and their attention was drawn to the shots fired from the north knoll, which was in the direct of the approaching motorcade and of nearly equal distance in comparison to the south origin. Plumlee and his associate, who he has reported as being sent to Dallas as part of an assassinations abort team, clearly heard a shot fired from behind them, that would put it in line with the shot origin I have been describing. Plumlee was also ex-military and was their to stop an assassination attempt, so he would be prepared for the sounds he was about to hear. He apparently also recognized the ideal location of the south knoll region as that is where he chose to station himself.

The most recent challenge to the South End of the Overpass/South Knoll shot origin comes from Sixth Floor Museum Curator Gary Mack. Mack has come forward with new reporter Bob Jett, who has claimed to have been in the South Knoll Parking Lot eating his lunch at the time of the assassination. Jett has stated that he saw no assassin and heard no shots fired from that origin. Jett was working at the time of the assassination. My question as to his credibility and presence is why did he not immediately report on air, witnessing the assassination? Why was he not called upon by the Warren Commission to testify as to what he saw and did not see? The Warren Commission directed questions at most witnesses as to whether they heard or saw anything suspicious in this region. Wouldn’t Jett have been the nail in the coffin they needed to disprove a shooter there?

Another established researcher who supports my belief of shot origin from the south end of overpass/south knoll region, is nationally recognized Bloodstain Pattern Analysis Expert and Instructor, Sherry Gutierrez. Sherry has presented at JFK Lancer November in Dallas Seminars in 2001 and 2003. In 2003, she partly focused on this shot origin. She has also produced threads on the Lancer Forum regarding this.

Beyond the headshot wound issue, I have also aligned this shot origin with the neck wound and have established it by showing Elm at a higher elevation at this point and how the shot would have to penetrate the windshield through its trajectory. This also explains the compromised velocity that would result in a shallower wound path. I have been challenged on this through photos including Altgens 6 and 7 and have provided arguments on both. Because this is already a rather complex subject, I will not go into detail on the throat wound.

Al Carrier ...". (End of Post)

Replies:

Nic Martin

Nov 26 2004, 09:18 AM

Post #2

Advanced Member

Group: Members

Posts: 286

Joined: 6-November 04

Member No.: 1853

Wonderful points, I wonder what all it would take to get an experiment running to test the echo effect. This was really well-written, and I'm sure it'd be an eye opener for anyone who didn't previously consider the south Knoll. Congrats!

John Simkin

Nov 26 2004, 09:49 AM

Post #3

Super Member

Group: Admin

Posts: 14094

Joined: 16-December 03

From: Worthing, Sussex

Member No.: 7

"Great posting Al. I hope this is the beginning of a long thread:"

(note: This thread was quickly dropped as the record shows)

Con't from John Simkin Post:

"... In Harold Weisberg’s book Whitewash he states:

When the motorcade turned toward the Depository Building on Houston Street, for several hundred feet there was a completely unobstructed view of it from the sixth-floor window. The police photographs and the forgotten Secret Service reconstruction of 1963 also show this. There was not a twig between the window and the President. There were no curves in that street, no tricky shooting angles. If all the shots came from this window, and the assassin was as cool and collected as the Report represents, why did he not shoot at the easiest and by far the best target? Why did he wait until his target was so difficult that the country's best shots could not duplicate his feat?

Do you share Weisberg’s view that the fact that the firing did not start until the motorcade reached Elm Street, suggests that there must have been more than one gunman?

To help this discussion I have added a drawing of scene of the assassination.

There is no question in my mind Tosh,that you are an asset to this forum.I myself have never judged you.

I have tried to utilize the search function on this site,but have been unsucessful.

THANKS: You know you are in with the minority.., Right? I'll do what I can. I am sure the back door channels and PM's are cooking now. I have received a few of those "Private" Emails which have been sent out over the years... seems I am an "Idiot" and not to be trusted. I have often wondered what their motives were and why so secret?

Tosh, I think we are in majority incredibly interested in the south knoll shooter, and welcome any of your experience and comment.

I hope so. Years ago when I tried to get into these recollections of mine, I was attacked and the threads were diverted. In spite of what some have said about me and my credibility, I never deleted any of my threads, nor faked my death. I have been reading this forum for some years and only come forth when I see something that I think might help in the investigation into JFK's murder. I desire no gain... just the truth. I will not fight or defend my position in reference to the special interest and so called, "experts" who monitor these type of forums. My information was on record many years before some of these "experts" were even born.

It`s so interesting that Tosh & Sergio were so close to a shooter.

Take into account those people so close to the north knoll shooter? ("Badgeman", less than ten feet and they did not see or hear a shooter, or look around...did they looked to the south?) What's wrong with that picture? The south knoll shooter was concealed behind the south end of the railroad overpass or the west end of the south parking lot, about fifty plus feet west and slightly south from Sergio and I. Again line this position (southend of RR) up with the allege picture of the hole or crack in the windshield? Also notice the direction the Limo was facing due to the curve in the road as it went down into the overpass. (slightly to the s/w..., not due west as some claim.., roughly 4 degrees south of west; decline approx 3 and1/2 degrees to underpass.)

Some years ago I posted a picture of the overhead Delay Plaza and marked this position. Perhaps someone can find it and post. There is no doubt in my mind that a shot came from the left front of the President and one shot missed and is still perhaps in the ground directly northeast in the grass behind where the President was shot. I believe perhaps two shooters were south... one in the parking lot and one at the south end of the overpass.