Robert Harris
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Posts posted by Robert Harris
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As to whether he was pushing his hair back or checking that part of his head for damage, I don't think we have nearly enough detail to confirm that one way or the other.
Boy oh boy oh boy, completely bonkers is all I can say about that lunatic suggestion.
Of course he's not checking his head for damage. A shot hadn't even been fired yet.
Duncan, the truth is not going to change, no matter how many of your friends you drag over here from your forum to disagree with me.
Every word you utter is for the solitary, vengeful purpose of trying to "get Harris". That's why you altered the Altgens photo to make it appear that there were boxes in that window, and why you pretended that JFK pushing his hair out of his eyes was the same as him balling his hand into a fist and falling to the left in the Towner film. You didn't believe that anymore than anyone else did, did you duncan
And you've been doing that since February of this year. But I couldn't believe that even you would team up with that nutcase two days ago who said I was a government disinformation agent, who altered the Zapruder film in order to coverup Bill Greer's murder of the President.
And you're a lone nutter Duncan???
Are you really hateful enough to undermine your own personal beliefs about the case and promote a "theory" which you know is false, just to be able to take a shot at me???
Actually, come to think of it - your absolute certainty about what JFK was doing 133 isn't much different than your new friends absolute certainty about what they see Greer doing at 312, except that we all get a much clearer view at 312.
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7-Frame Gif ( Z-133 Z-140 )
The few early frames z133-z137 appear to be quite blury, and the camera shake in frame Z-134 doesn't help
Click on the thumbnail
Thanks Robin.
Here the same frames, except 134 but stable.
best to you
Martin
As I stated at the top of the thread, he was absolutely, positively not waving to the crowd then as has been believed practically since the day of the assassination.
As to whether he was pushing his hair back or checking that part of his head for damage, I don't think we have nearly enough detail to confirm that one way or the other. If he was checking for damage, I suspect that he would have gone out of his way to stay cool and appear normal.
JFK heard no shot then and it appears that he was not directly wounded. So, there was no reason for him to believe at that point, that anyone was shooting at him. And in fact, up until a few days ago I was under the same illusion that everyone else was, that he was waving to the crowd then.
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7-Frame Gif ( Z-133 Z-140 )
The few early frames z133-z137 appear to be quite blury, and the camera shake in frame Z-134 doesn't help
Click on the thumbnail
Thanks Robin.
Here the same frames, except 134 but stable.
best to you
Martin
As I stated at the top of the thread, he was absolutely, positively not waving to the crowd then as has been believed practically since the day of the assassination.
As to whether he was pushing his hair back or checking that part of his head for damage, I don't think we have nearly enough detail to confirm that one way or the other.
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Bill, you don't seem to quite grasp the concept that when a reporter quotes someone, their claim is second hand. But why are you dodging my questions?
Why would you take the word of a reporter over Connally's sworn testimonies before the WC and the HSCA, which was corroborated in other interviews including some in which he was televised? You need to stop running Bill and give us a few straight answers. I've lost count of all the questions you've run from. When you are evasive you only prove that you KNOW you are wrong.
I will answer your question with a question ....
I have a better idea Bill. Why don't you answer my question with an answer?
And why did you claim that Mrs. Connally said she was "not sure when her husband said 'Oh no,no, no'"? I'm sure you wouldn't just make up a deliberate lie about that would you Bill??
I must ask that you cite the post where I made the remark.
Sure Bill. I guess you just forgot what you said yesterday
"I had explained, quite clearly in my view, that Nellie said that the second shot she had heard was the one that hit her husband in the back despite her not being sure when her husband said 'Oh no,no,no'."
Bill, when did Nellie say that she was not sure about when her husband said "Oh, no, no, no"?
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\Why in holy hell would you think that a reporter's second hand claim about what John Connally said in 1966 should take precedence over his testimonies which were made under oath in 1963 and again in 1978?
Is that what you call good research Bill? I'd call it desperation
The Harris response above should go on the blooper reel. The reason for this is that there was no "second hand" claim by a reporter ... It was John Connally right there doing the interview with Life Magazine ... the one and only John Connally. Unless there is a new rule out there that I had never heard .... statements made by the person who originally said them are not "second hand" claims.
Bill
Bill, you don't seem to quite grasp the concept that when a reporter quotes someone, their claim is secnd hand. But why are you dodging my questions?
Why would you take the word of a reporter over Connally's sworn testimonies before the WC and the HSCA, which was corroborated in other interviews including some in which he was televised? You need to stop running Bill and give us a few straight answers. I've lost count of all the questions you've run from. When you are evasive you only prove that you KNOW you are wrong.
And why did you claim that Mrs. Connally said she was "not sure when her husband said 'Oh no,no, no'"? I'm sure you wouldn't just make up a deliberate lie about that would you Bill??
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Duncan - something happened during the turn that was snipped (or "burnt") out of the Towner film, and omitted entire from Zapruder.
It may have been Kennedy reacting to the famed "short turn," potentially embarrassing to an already criticized Secret Service. People might see Kennedy lurch in his seat from the abrupt turn motion, right "under the assassin's window."
But should we look at the Towner film again to see if the "short turn" is not a cover fiction for some other disturbance that might have been even more obvious in an unedited Zapruder? Did anyone in the limo (aside from Greer) complain about the turn? Does the fabled turn look alarming to the spectators or anyone besides Kennedy? If not, we have to consider other scenarios.
Bob has alerted us to important things missing in Zapruder that have to be researched from other films, other experiences of the motorcade, other possibilities. I'm not sure that a open-and-close left-hand wave made by JFK while the limo proceeded without trouble is strictly comparable to a gesture made during the complex motions and duration of the turn. And comparison of Kennedy's two right-hand hair brushings - in Towner before the "aborted wave," and at Z-133 - has to be discussed if we seek cues to what's going on, and what's missing in the films.
I try very hard to give the feds the benefit of the doubt whenever possible although the track record of Hoover's FBI in this case makes that extremely hard to do. But as I stated in my first presentation on this issue, it may be that the damage was not deliberate. Since they didn't have Quicktime back in those days, the easiest way to study a film was to stop the projector and look at individual frames. But if you did that for more than a few seconds, the projector lamp would burn the film, which appears to be what happened.
It boggles the mind however to think that in a case of this magnitude, the FBI could be so incredibly negligent that they would study a film that way before they made a copy of it and without taking precautions to prevent such a thing. We might expect that from the Mayberry PD but the FBI is supposed to know what they are doing. And THAT I think is the best reason to be suspicious. These guys were supposed to be the best cops on the planet. I have a really hard time believing that they were so stupid and incompetent that they would do something like that by accident.
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You are correct, Bill. Debating with Bob "Scissorhands" Harris is like talking to a dead tree.
For my part, I have shown him more than enough video evidence which proves beyond any shadow of a doubt, that his "You'll never find a photo or another video in which you will see President Kennedy react like that, either in Dallas, or for that matter during his entire life" is simply not true, and that his research ability consists of jumping to false and silly conclusions by not cross referencing materials and joining the dots.
Duncan MacRae
BTW, is that the third or the fourth time you have told us that, today?
What I think you fail to realize is that the people you are pitching are actually going to look at those videos. I wonder if you understand how bad that is making you look Duncan?
You need to stick with images that you can alter and draw in the things you want people to see. You can't do that with the Towner film Duncan, though I wouldn't be surprised if you tried
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You are correct, Bill. Debating with Bob "Scissorhands" Harris is like talking to a dead tree.
For my part, I have shown him more than enough video evidence which proves beyond any shadow of a doubt, that his "You'll never find a photo or another video in which you will see President Kennedy react like that, either in Dallas, or for that matter during his entire life" is simply not true, and that his research ability consists of jumping to false and silly conclusions by not cross referencing materials and joining the dots.
Duncan MacRae
LOL!! Duncan you are pathetic. If you think JFK brushing the hair out of his face was the same as his reactions in the Towner film then you are either on heavy drugs or you have one VERY serious problem with integrity.
And why is it that every time I suggest that people make their own call on this, you feel compelled to butt in and tell everyone what they are supposed be seeing??
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"He then says no one is answering his questions and yet when they are answered ... like some sort of Baghdad Bob he denies seeing them."
Bill, would you like to review the questions so that you can prove you are not the LSOS that you have actually been?
Would you like me to cite them all together or one at a time??
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And there's more.
Credit Mark Valenti.
Here it is. Start at 4:50.
JFK does that thing with his hand - the thing that nobody in the history of the entire world has ever seen him do, not on that day or any day before that - according to Robert Harris.
He raises his hand - and then lets it drop without waving or touching his hair.
In fact - in the scene prior to this one, at around 4:42, JFK adjusts himself in his seat and then resumes his normal seated position. The very movement that Harris claims is JFK ducking in front of the Dal-Tex building.
What!! JFK dropped his hand after pushing the hair back out of his face???
You mean he didn't hold it up in the air all day???
OHMIGOD, nothing gets past you, does it Duncan
:D So, you think he was doing the same thing in the Towner film, is that correct??
I'm sure everyone appreciates you telling them what they are seeing Duncan, but my thinking is that most people are a helluva lot more capable of figuring this out than you are. I suggest we let them make their own decision. Perhaps some folks would like to compare your video with the Towner film and decide for themselves if JFK was doing the same thing:
It might also be helpful to study JFK's face in a photo taken by Tina's father at the same instant that she was filming his reactions and compare that with his face in Duncan's video.
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Oh, and as to your accusation Bill, that I lied about reading the Life article, I have a photocopy of that article in my files that I received at COPA in 1994 and have been a fan of Google Books since it began, so of course I have seen the article there. Since you are so desperate to find a 'gothcha' however, I will freely confess that I have not memorized every one of the literally thousands of articles I have read over the years.
BTW Bill, when did Mrs. Connally say she was "not sure when her husband said 'Oh no,no, no'"?
Would you mind citing her verbatim, Bill?
Oh and one last question. Why in holy hell would you think that a reporter's second hand claim about what John Connally said in 1966 should take precedence over his testimonies which were made under oath in 1963 and again in 1978?
Is that what you call good research Bill? I'd call it desperation
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The shot at 285 is infinitely more important because it settles the conspiracy question once and for all.
There was no shot at 285
Well then, you should have no problem answering 8 or 9 questions that Bill has been dodging.
How soon can we expect you to do that Duncan?
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"You'll never find a photo or another video in which you will see President Kennedy react like that, either in Dallas, or for that matter during his entire life"
That statement was about JFK pulling his hand down and balling it into a fist and then falling to his left. Why are you citing me out of context and trying to make it appear that I was talking about his hair???
Is there some rule you have to follow Duncan, which prohibits you from making even a single accurate and honest statement?
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If John Connally was quoted correctly in that article, he did indeed contradict his Warren Commission testimony, his HSCA testimony and every other interview I ever heard from him. I don't think I ever said that he was 100% consistent, but frankly if I had been asked I probably would have said he was. This is what he told the HSCA,
Yet when you were told about the other interviews and statements they made ... you were so arrogant that I was in error that you didn't need to refresh your memory about the Life article that you claimed to have read even though your reply now makes it clear that you had no such memory or had even read the article .... none of which surprises me.
"..it was a bit later when I said oh, no, no, no. This was after I realized I had been hit and, then I said my God, they are going to kill us all."And that is what he said over and over again both before and after the Life article. I don't think it is impossible that the interviewer misunderstood him.
As I recall you were shown statements by Connally where he said both in the same breath as if he wasn't sure. I can't say whether the interviewer for the Commission or elsewhere had misunderstood him, but what I can say is that the Life Interview was given by Connally to offer a more precise accounting for what happened during those few brief seconds. You were warned that they had done so and you ignored it as if what I was telling wasn't so. Your were advised not to rely so much on obviously contradictory statements they had made and to rely more on the one thing they were consistent on and that was when Connally was hit in the back. I had explained, quite clearly in my view, that Nellie said that the second shot she had heard was the one that hit her husband in the back despite her not being sure when her husband said 'Oh no,no,no'.
Much more importantly, we KNOW that he said "Oh, no.." , AFTER 223. We can see him ourselves and that has been confirmed by professional lip readers. He began to shout at about 242.Others here disagree with your memory of what the lip readers said ... all I am saying is that Connally had said that it came after he heard the first shot and before he felt the blow to his back.
But Nellie is the real issue here. It is all those questions about HER, that you have been running from. And your problem is that she not only told us when she heard that shot, but we can SEE her react to it a third of a second following 285 and in almost perfect unison with Zapruder and every other nonvictim in the limo.I don't believe you will ever find her contradicting herself. But if she ever did, I have 100% faith in you Bill, that you will find it
And what reaction is that, Harris? The entire shooting lasted about six seconds! Nellie attempted to explain what happened in the Life interview so people like us wouldn't be confusing what she was trying to convey in the past to what we were interpreting her to mean. Had you have read the Life interview, you would be forced to see that it is not me saying this stuff, but the Connally's themselves. Whether the Connally's were ever previously mis-quoted or whether they felt they had previously mis-stated something ... they wanted the record set straight and said so in the interview.
In my previous response concerning Nellie wanting to set the record straight, I took the time to cite Nellie from the instant she saw John first being shot at the moment of the second blast - to buckling over - to recoiling to his right - to slumping down - to her pulling him back towards her .... and all in that order!!! So without the use of sock-puppets to help you better follow the chain of events through Nellie's own words during those few seconds .... she couldn't have done a better job of breaking things down.
Bill Miller
Bill, you seem to be imagining that I said John Connally was infallible or something like that. I never did. I said Nellie was totally consistent throughout her entire life. I hate to think of how many hours you have spent trying to find her contradicting some trivial detail but you obviously couldn't do it.
And why in holy hell would you even care? The shot at 285 is infinitely more important because it settles the conspiracy question once and for all.
Your pretense that you cannot see those reactions is pathetic Bill. Even some of the most hardcore nutters have acknowledged them in mcadams forum. And the ridiculously obvious reason why you have evaded every single significant question I have asked you is that you know you would have to make a fool out of yourself by trying to deny what any sane person can see.
And yes Bill, you did a great job citing Nellie. The only problem is, that you cited her saying exactly what she always said - she heard a "noise", looked back at JFK with his hands up, and then heard another shot - exactly as we see her do in the Zapruder film.
Unfortunately for you however and everyone else who wants to squelch these facts, we also see her look back at the President at 258. And there was NO OTHER point in time in which she could have done that and seen his arms raised. And we see her turn back to her husband and pull him to her at precisely 291. And she told us over and over again, she never looked back at JFK again.
She turned back toward JFK TWICE following 223, Bill - another fact that you don't seem interested in discussing. But she never looked back again after Zapruder frame 285.
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Duncan - something happened during the turn that was snipped (or "burnt") out of the Towner film, and omitted entire from Zapruder.
It may have been Kennedy reacting to the famed "short turn," potentially embarrassing to an already criticized Secret Service. People might see Kennedy lurch in his seat from the abrupt turn motion, right "under the assassin's window."
But should we look at the Towner film again to see if the "short turn" is not a cover fiction for some other disturbance that might have been even more obvious in an unedited Zapruder? Did anyone in the limo (aside from Greer) complain about the turn? Does the fabled turn look alarming to the spectators or anyone besides Kennedy? If not, we have to consider other scenarios.
Bob has alerted us to important things missing in Zapruder that have to be researched from other films, other experiences of the motorcade, other possibilities. I'm not sure that a open-and-close left-hand wave made by JFK while the limo proceeded without trouble is strictly comparable to a gesture made during the complex motions and duration of the turn. And comparison of Kennedy's two right-hand hair brushings - in Towner before the "aborted wave," and at Z-133 - has to be discussed if we seek cues to what's going on, and what's missing in the films.
Duncan and Bill are my newly acquired shadows. They follow me around from thread to thread attacking pretty much anything and everything I say and they do so without even the faintest concern for integrity or honesty. Duncan managed to find a horribly blurry copy of the Altgens photo and then drew in a picture of some boxes, apparently thinking that someone might actually believe they were real.
He also likes to post pictures of cartoon characters and then tell us that they agree with him. Duncan's is one of the saddest cases of arrested development I have ever seen. He appears to remain locked into his pre-adolescent years when he was bullied by the other children who made fun of him because he was a little slower than them.
Bill is not that complicated. He just runs like hell from every issue that is even remotely significant.
I am told that shortly after I was born, my mother's friends urged her to take her newborn son to a local gypsy who was thought to have psychic powers, and ask her for a blessing. She did but the gypsy charged for her services and my family was poor back then. Sadly, mom couldn't afford the price of a "wealth" or "good looks" blessing, but the gypsy told her not to worry. She was having a sale that day and mom could purchase one very special blessing for just a single dollar. She happily paid the dollar and the gypsy sat at a table with us, going into a deep trance and then in a voice that mom was sure, came from another world, she uttered the magical words, "May all Robert's enemies be incredibly stupid!".
I doubt that the gypsy is still alive today but if she was I sure would like to give her a big hug
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Yes, but I think we see more than enough to confirm that he was reacting very strangely and considering the situation at the time, it's hard to imagine that being caused by anything other than a gunshot.
And since he fell to his left, it would seem that he was struck by something from his right, so it would seem likely that the area where his hand was at 133 could have been where he was hit.
Of course, there's no way to prove any of that. There's not enough detail in the Zfilm at that point, but doesn't it make sense that he would move his hand to wherever he was struck, perhaps to check to see if there was any blood?
Anyway, whatever he was doing, he sure as hell wasn't cheerfully waving at the crowd.
I wish you (Bob) would stop saying 'we' as if you speak for the rest of us. You take these trivial meaningless things and try to make more out of them than what they are. What witness said that a shot hit the pavement when JFK was in the intersection of Elm and Houston ... ???????? The only spark off the street that I recall reading about came once the limo had completed the turn and was moving down Elm Street.
In the Betzner photo there are women standing along the top of the street who JFK passed that had been waving to him ... one had raised her newspaper as if to jester a 'hi' to the President. The people in the background in the Towner film are moving very fast through JFK's field of view because of the turning of the limo. I think you are making too much out of nothing.
Bill
I'm sorry Bill. By "we" I am referring to both people who acknowledge what they see and those who pretend otherwise.
And yes! People in the crowd did indeed wave at the President - another brilliant insight on your part!
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I've followed a lot of Bob's video presentations on the "early miss," though - and I'm far from ready to write it off.
The gesture could conceivably have both motives in it. Ex-servicemen and executive officers both, Kennedy and Connally were definitely "on parade," and thus their reactions were tempered - until the bullet penetrates the windshield from the front, and Connally ducks to his right most forcefully.
Kennedy's presidential cool was on the line down there in "nut country," so interpretation of his gestures has to take his self-restraint into account.
Good Day David .... Here is the simplest, most direct reason, based solidly on the precise locations of JFK and JBC @ Z-206 relative to the windshield defect point, for exactly why during the volleys of the attack shots there was never any bullet that passed through the windshield from the front....
.... and, further detailed here....
http://www.jfklancer...5&mesg_id=82475
Best Regards in Research,
Don
Donald Roberdeau
U.S.S. John F. Kennedy, CV-67, "Big John," Plank Walker
Sooner, or later, The Truth emerges Clearly
For your considerations....
Visual Report: Reality versus C.A.D. : the Real World, versus, Garbage-In, Garbage-Out
West, Ultrafast, and Directly Towards the Grassy Knoll"
File: President KENNEDY Assassination Research, Maps, & Discoveries for Your Considerations
T ogether
E veryone
A chieves
M ore
National Terror Alert for the United States:
This doea not account for the damage to the chrome strip nor that of the rearview mirror mount (which seems to be studiously ignored..
I think a trajectory that takes this into account as a sequence of events of a fragmenting bullet or part thereof can explain all these three damages to the limo and fragments found in the limo as well as the sense of a number of occupants that there were more bullets fired than there were.
(While I'm at it, the 'Tague strike' is, imo, questionable, yet taken as given. I think this is a mistake.)
The DP witnesses saw the same thing we see in the film, except we can slow things down, blowup the images and look at them a hundred times. Yet even with that advantage most people thought JFK for decades that he was waving at 133 and again during the frames between 170 and 193. So it is hardly surprising that some of the witnesses thought that too.
But he wasn't. He was reacting first to the shot fired during the Towner film and then again to the shot fired at app. 160.
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Don R.: Critic, please! Turn the cheesy soundtrack all the way down and watch Connally in this rather useful framing. What is it that Connally jerks his left arm at and lifts his hat up to ward away? A bumblebee?
Bob H: Find the last couple places in your own filmography where JFK brushes his hair away, and compare the size/duration of the hand gesture involved. He does it briefly with his right hand just at the beginning of the Tina Towner clip shown in your "The First Shot" presentation, before the limo proper is fully turned onto Elm. It's at about 0:02-0:03 in this version:
I'm thinking that the "hair-brush motion" at Z-133 (which is after the "before" comparison moment in Towner above) is partly habit, and partly a self-checking gesture. If JFK wasn't actually peppered with backflying asphalt grains from the missed shot, then the hair-brush motion may be the physical equivalent of a "Whew!" - that is, a transfer of energy from Kennedy's reaction to the missed shot into an innocuous, "business-as-usual" gesture, to not alarm the crowd or Jackie. I notice that his next action is to look over toward Jackie, as if to make sure she's OK.
This hair-brush/self-check is just a residual effect; the real action is already over. It was cut out of Zapruder (whose JFK footage "begins" as soon as it's safe to, with JFK's "innocuous" gesture), and it was truncated in Towner due to the "processing damage" done by the FBI. Then, during the turn, as you've shown us, is where the real action was - something happened in the middle of Towner and at the start of Zapruder that, um, somebody didn't want us to see...
Yes, but I think we see more than enough to confirm that he was reacting very strangely and considering the situation at the time, it's hard to imagine that being caused by anything other than a gunshot.
And since he fell to his left, it would seem that he was struck by something from his right, so it would seem likely that the area where his hand was at 133 could have been where he was hit.
Of course, there's no way to prove any of that. There's not enough detail in the Zfilm at that point, but doesn't it make sense that he would move his hand to wherever he was struck, perhaps to check to see if there was any blood?
Anyway, whatever he was doing, he sure as hell wasn't cheerfully waving at the crowd.
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And I have never claimed that the second shot was fired at a "much later time than 223/224". Both Connally and Kennedy were hit at 223, give or take a frame.
And Nellie has NEVER contradicted her statements about the shooting - not even once. If she had, you would have been able to cite her doing that. Why are you pretending that she did??
I won't argue with you as to JFK being hit by a separate bullet ... you can think what you want. We have been talking about what Connally and his wife have said. I cited in a previous post that Nellie said that she heard the second shot that hit her husband in the back. I cited the source and quoted it.
Now here the Life Magazine quotes that you said I was wrong about and how you didn't need to go read it again. The issue was November 1966 and I am quoting John and Nellie:
John Connally says to Life Magazine, "Between the time I heard the first shot and felt the impact of the other bullet that obviously hit me, I sensed something was wrong and said, "Oh no, no, no." " Nellie Connally says to Life Magazine, "First I heard the shot, or a strange or loud noise ........ then next I turned to my right and saw the President gripping at his throat. Then I turned back towards John, and heard the second shot that hit John .... I must have been looking right at him when it hit because I saw him recoil to the right."
The Connally's have spoken ... they claim that the first shot that hit the President WAS NOT the shot that hit John Connally in the back. The statement 'Oh no, no, no' is said to have come before the impact to Connally's back. I have told you several times that they have said just what you see quoted here and in my previous post where I quoted them from another source. You said they have never said any such thing and now I have shown that you were mistaken. All your propaganda didn't change the facts. Both John and Nellie make it perfectly clear in all their versions that a separate bullet hit the Governor than what hit JFK. Connally said he had time to react and say 'Oh no, no, no' and added that he said this when he was behind the road sign and BEFORE he was hit in the back. So feel free to read the Life Magazine Interview before saying anything else that will put you in a bad light. The other option would be to continue to deny that I have cited the Connally's correctly.
My only error was that I said I recalled the interview being in the November 67' issue when it was the November 66' issue.
Also you said, "The simple fact which you are trying so desperately to evade is, that during the assassination, Mrs. Connally was oblivious to her husband being wounded at the time he was actually hit, and that she didn't believe he was wounded until AFTER she heard the next shot, which provoked her to finally turn to him and pull him back to her." I believe the above cited statements prove otherwise. Nellie said that she saw John recoil to the right after being hit and slump down and that was what caused her to pull him back to her. Both Z255/56 and Altgens #6 show Connaly recoiled to the right from already being hit. I guess one could say NELLIE KNEW IT AND ROBERT BLEW IT!!!
Bill Miller
I can find three statements that seem to be about your accusation. Now, there may be others but I am not going reread everything I ever wrote on this subject.
"Your claim that she was too old to know what she was talking about in that interview was outrageously disingenuous, since you must realize that her story hadn't changed even slightly since she testified in 1964."
"And Nellie has NEVER contradicted her statements about the shooting - not even once. If she had, you would have been able to cite her doing that. Why are you pretending that she did??"
"I read that Life article years ago and nothing in it contradicts the Connallys."
If John Connally was quoted correctly in that article, he did indeed contradict his Warren Commission testimony, his HSCA testimony and every other interview I ever heard from him. I don't think I ever said that he was 100% consistent, but frankly if I had been asked I probably would have said he was. This is what he told the HSCA,
"..it was a bit later when I said oh, no, no, no. This was after I realized I had been hit and, then I said my God, they are going to kill us all."
And that is what he said over and over again both before and after the Life article. I don't think it is impossible that the interviewer misunderstood him.
Much more importantly, we KNOW that he said "Oh, no.." , AFTER 223. We can see him ourselves and that has been confirmed by professional lip readers. He began to shout at about 242.
But Nellie is the real issue here. It is all those questions about HER, that you have been running from. And your problem is that she not only told us when she heard that shot, but we can SEE her react to it a third of a second following 285 and in almost perfect unison with Zapruder and every other nonvictim in the limo.
And THAT is what has you running for a dry pair of pants, isn't it Bill?
I don't believe you will ever find her contradicting herself. But if she ever did, I have 100% faith in you Bill, that you will find it
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OK - but as earlier film of the motorcade on Main and elsewhere shows, Kennedy was repeatedly brushing his windblown forelock back.
Good call David, this is what JFK is doing, he waves then brushes his hair back
Do you really think his hand goes back far enough to be brushing his hair?
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Vincent, you are trying to substitute quantity here for quality.
Your "theory" as I understand it is that Boring deliberately lied to his fellow agents so that the sniper(s) would have an easy shot at JFK. Is that correct?
So, when you phoned Boring, you believe he thought to himself, "Gosh, I better get it off my chest that I conspired with the killers and lied to coverup my evil deeds. I'll just confess to this total stranger on the phone!".
Is that what you believe happened, Vince?
Or do you suspect that this elderly man just forgot the incident from 30 years earlier, which to him was a totally trivial and unimportant event?
Which is it Vince?
Another confuser who is a Secret Service apologist.
"Bob Harris, a disinfo failure at Kennedy research"
ROFLMAO!!
So, I am a disinfo agent who doctored the Zapruder film to cover up Bill Greer's brutal murder of the President!!
Woohoo!! Welcome to La La land folks!
Visiting hours for the inmates will be over soon!
You guys DEFINITELY belong in Vince's ward!
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Robert, it's pretty clear that Connally yells out "My God! They're going to kill us all!" before Z-285. While Nellie Connally believed her husband yelled out "No, no, no" before he was hit,
That is absolutely correct.
she always insisted he yelled out "My God..." after. This means that she believed he was hit seconds before Z-285.
Pat, we cannot be certain about when he said that. She may have heard the tail end of that sentence as the 312 shot was going off. But the fact that she heard that "second shot" after looking back at 258, and then reacted within a third of a second following 285, has to trump anything else.
I don't follow you here, Bob, and suspect you are greatly mistaken. Deaf mutes have studied the film and have read Connally's lips. Their appraisal, moreover, seems obvious when one studies the film. Connally begins claiming "My God" in response to getting hit almost two seconds before you believe his wife thinks he was hit, even though she claimed from the first, even before viewing the film, that she thought he yelled this out as a response to getting hit. If you want to claim she was confused. Fine. But you shouldn't pretend that this is not a problem for your scenario.
Other problems I see... You seem to believe there was a shot at 160, but that no one heard it, or some such thing. Those claiming there was a shot at this time inevitably do so because they think they see Connally react to it. If no one heard it...then why should we think it happened? I don't get this at all...
Also, while you correctly claim that the witnesses heard the last two shots close together, you seem to ignore that the bulk of these claimed the head shot was the first of these two shots...and that Kinney and Roberts--looking at the back of Kennedy's head at the time of the shots--said they were so close together that they just couldn't tell or some such thing. This, to me, is a clear indication that the head shot was the second shot, and not the third of the three shots heard by most witnesses.
Pat, let's be specific about what the lip readers actually said. This is regarding frames 255-287.
Gov. Connally is screaming and talking (his face is in shadow; he may be saying, "My God, they're going to kill us all," based on what can be seen of his expression
By their own words, they cannot see his mouth and are only guessing about what he was saying.
And remember, they had him saying, "Oh, no, no, no" beginning at 242-250. It takes me about 2 seconds (36 frames) to say that and I talk faster than most Texans. And he would not have run the two statements immediately together. He had to have stopped to grab a breathe before the "My God.." statement.
242 + 32 to say "Oh, no..", then let's say 12 frames (2/3rds of a second) to take a breathe and we have him beginning that second sentence at 286.
Do you see what I mean? Seriously, try it yourself. Tell me if those numbers are reasonable, Pat.
As for the timing of the head shot, that is another can of worms which gets a bit complicated because I'm pretty sure there was a shot after 312 which was drowned out by the much louder shot that preceded it. But Greer said the second and third shots were nearly simultaneous as did most of the other witnesses. And look at Kellerman's reaction immediately following 285. Watch as he ducks and simultaneously raises his left hand to shield his ear.
Obviously, Kellerman was reacting to the 130 decibel sound level of the same shock wave that Greer described as the "concussion" he felt from that shot. Also in that same animation, look at Greer reacting simultaneously with Kellerman. Some alterationists believe that Greer's turns to the front and back then were humanly impossible. They're not of course, but they are damned fast. I was able to match them back in the 90's but it took me several tries and I was more than a little dizzy afterward.
And as we all know, he panicked and slowed the limo which I believe further confirms that he was seriously startled then, exactly as we would expect him to be.
Both Greers and Kellerman's reactions began at the same 1/18th of a second at frame 292. They began within the same 1/6th of a second as Jackie's and Nellies reactions and the reaction by Zapruder that that Alvarez identified.
As for 160, yes I believe that some witnesses, probably a majority, heard it. But almost no one believed at the time that it was a gunshot. Nor did the limo passengers exhibit startle reactions to it. Obviously, it did not come from a high powered rifle and was almost certainly from a suppressed weapon. What the witnesses might have heard, was the sound of it shattering when it hit the pavement. Now, there may be another explanation for that but it seems pretty obvious that for whatever reason, it was heard by quite a few people.
I know a lot of conspiracy people don't buy the shot at 160 but consider how many witnesses including Jackie herself, said the she was looking to her left when the shot was fired and that she reacted by turning toward her husband. She began that turn at precisely frame 169.
No one heard the shot at 223 however, probably because it never hit the pavement. That's why most witnesses reported no more than one early shot. And that's why Connally never heard the shot that hit him. The nutter excuses for that are just BS. A bullet in the back doesn't affect one's auditory system unless he is rendered unconscious. There is no reason why Connally would not have heard that shot if it was audible. And the testimonies of the other witnesses confirm that they didn't hear it either.
I realize that this is different than anything you have probably heard before. But if you think about it I believe you will realize that this explanation is the ONLY one that is really consistent with the known facts. Everything else from Posner to Groden, directly contradicts the witnesses and a great deal of evidence.
Robert, it seems clear from your post that, while I have followed your arguments for years from a distance, you have never read the chapters on my webpage dealing with this issue.
In Chapters 5 through 9, I go through ALL the eyewitness statements over the years, and show how they support a scenario in which 1) the first shot heard by most was fired circa 190, and hit Kennedy; 2) a suppressed or subsonic shot hit Connally circa 223/224, and 3) two loud noises were heard circa Z-313, with the bullet associated with the first one striking Kennedy in the skull, and the second one, if it was a bullet and not a diversionary device, missing.
That is what the eyewitness statements suggest, when taken in total. There is virtually nothing to suggest a shot of any kind was fired circa Z-160. I dismantle all of Bugliosi's arguments for such a shot in Chapter 9b of my webpage.
Now, you have taken the fact that everyone in the limo is moving at a certain point in the Z-film as an indication everyone was reacting to a missed shot at this time. And I don't think you can do that. One of your reactions--Kellerman's--appears to be nothing more than his reaching for the microphone on the dash of the limo.
Now, one way I think you could shore up your argument would be for you to go through the eyewitness statements, and find those who said something suggesting the head shot followed a missed shot fired but a second or two before. Happy hunting. I think Hickey might be your best bet.
P.S. Shackleford's article with the deaf mutes was written long before clear copies of the film were available. In the digitized version of the film, it's pretty darned clear, as I recall, that Connally yells out "My God," just after Z-250. Maybe you can post this so we can see if my memory's correct.
So.. what you get out my previous post is that I base my analysis on an assertion that "everyone is moving"?? Is that right?
Thank you Pat. If nothing else I have acquired a much better feel for where you are coming from and how seriously you take this case.
I will not bother you again.
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Standard lore in the JFK case is that at the time JFK first appeared at frame 133 in the Zapruder film, he was happily waving to the crowd. And it may be that some of the witnesses thought the same. But we have an advantage over them. We can slow down the action and magnify the frames to make a much better determination of what was happening.
In this animation I would invite interested readers to look VERY closely at JFK then and particularly at frame 139 where I inserted a short pause to give you a better look at his right hand. If his hand was turned outward, then he was probably waving.
But if it was turned inward, it is far more likely that he had raised his hand to his head, exactly as we would expect him to do if he had been struck there by a piece of debris from a missed shot that shattered on the pavement to his right.
I'm sure some of my newfound shadows will be eager to tell you what you are seeing but I would urge everyone to look very, very closely and make his own call.
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Robert, it's pretty clear that Connally yells out "My God! They're going to kill us all!" before Z-285. While Nellie Connally believed her husband yelled out "No, no, no" before he was hit,
That is absolutely correct.
she always insisted he yelled out "My God..." after. This means that she believed he was hit seconds before Z-285.
Pat, we cannot be certain about when he said that. She may have heard the tail end of that sentence as the 312 shot was going off. But the fact that she heard that "second shot" after looking back at 258, and then reacted within a third of a second following 285, has to trump anything else.
I don't follow you here, Bob, and suspect you are greatly mistaken. Deaf mutes have studied the film and have read Connally's lips. Their appraisal, moreover, seems obvious when one studies the film. Connally begins claiming "My God" in response to getting hit almost two seconds before you believe his wife thinks he was hit, even though she claimed from the first, even before viewing the film, that she thought he yelled this out as a response to getting hit. If you want to claim she was confused. Fine. But you shouldn't pretend that this is not a problem for your scenario.
Other problems I see... You seem to believe there was a shot at 160, but that no one heard it, or some such thing. Those claiming there was a shot at this time inevitably do so because they think they see Connally react to it. If no one heard it...then why should we think it happened? I don't get this at all...
Also, while you correctly claim that the witnesses heard the last two shots close together, you seem to ignore that the bulk of these claimed the head shot was the first of these two shots...and that Kinney and Roberts--looking at the back of Kennedy's head at the time of the shots--said they were so close together that they just couldn't tell or some such thing. This, to me, is a clear indication that the head shot was the second shot, and not the third of the three shots heard by most witnesses.
Pat, let's be specific about what the lip readers actually said. This is regarding frames 255-287.
Gov. Connally is screaming and talking (his face is in shadow; he may be saying, "My God, they're going to kill us all," based on what can be seen of his expression
By their own words, they cannot see his mouth and are only guessing about what he was saying.
And remember, they had him saying, "Oh, no, no, no" beginning at 242-250. It takes me about 2 seconds (36 frames) to say that and I talk faster than most Texans. And he would not have run the two statements immediately together. He had to have stopped to grab a breathe before the "My God.." statement.
242 + 32 to say "Oh, no..", then let's say 12 frames (2/3rds of a second) to take a breathe and we have him beginning that second sentence at 286.
Do you see what I mean? Seriously, try it yourself. Tell me if those numbers are reasonable, Pat.
As for the timing of the head shot, that is another can of worms which gets a bit complicated because I'm pretty sure there was a shot after 312 which was drowned out by the much louder shot that preceded it. But Greer said the second and third shots were nearly simultaneous as did most of the other witnesses. And look at Kellerman's reaction immediately following 285. Watch as he ducks and simultaneously raises his left hand to shield his ear.
Obviously, Kellerman was reacting to the 130 decibel sound level of the same shock wave that Greer described as the "concussion" he felt from that shot. Also in that same animation, look at Greer reacting simultaneously with Kellerman. Some alterationists believe that Greer's turns to the front and back then were humanly impossible. They're not of course, but they are damned fast. I was able to match them back in the 90's but it took me several tries and I was more than a little dizzy afterward.
And as we all know, he panicked and slowed the limo which I believe further confirms that he was seriously startled then, exactly as we would expect him to be.
Both Greers and Kellerman's reactions began at the same 1/18th of a second at frame 292. They began within the same 1/6th of a second as Jackie's and Nellies reactions and the reaction by Zapruder that that Alvarez identified.
As for 160, yes I believe that some witnesses, probably a majority, heard it. But almost no one believed at the time that it was a gunshot. Nor did the limo passengers exhibit startle reactions to it. Obviously, it did not come from a high powered rifle and was almost certainly from a suppressed weapon. What the witnesses might have heard, was the sound of it shattering when it hit the pavement. Now, there may be another explanation for that but it seems pretty obvious that for whatever reason, it was heard by quite a few people.
I know a lot of conspiracy people don't buy the shot at 160 but consider how many witnesses including Jackie herself, said the she was looking to her left when the shot was fired and that she reacted by turning toward her husband. She began that turn at precisely frame 169.
No one heard the shot at 223 however, probably because it never hit the pavement. That's why most witnesses reported no more than one early shot. And that's why Connally never heard the shot that hit him. The nutter excuses for that are just BS. A bullet in the back doesn't affect one's auditory system unless he is rendered unconscious. There is no reason why Connally would not have heard that shot if it was audible. And the testimonies of the other witnesses confirm that they didn't hear it either.
I realize that this is different than anything you have probably heard before. But if you think about it I believe you will realize that this explanation is the ONLY one that is really consistent with the known facts. Everything else from Posner to Groden, directly contradicts the witnesses and a great deal of evidence.
Robert Harris's Broken 3rd Floor Daltex Window Theory Blown Out Of The Water
in JFK Assassination Debate
Posted
Yes Bill, that's what everybody did who interviewed the Connallys.
This is not about what I said, Bill. This is about what you said and your decision to choose a single, isolated statement that contradicted what that man said over and over and over again, throughout his entire life. Here is my question again. Why don't you stop running and just give us a straight answer?
"Why would you take the word of a reporter over Connally's sworn testimonies before the WC and the HSCA, which was corroborated in other interviews including some in which he was televised? You need to stop running Bill and give us a few straight answers. I've lost count of all the questions you've run from. When you are evasive you only prove that you KNOW you are wrong."
Bill, I have no clue as to whether they said such a thing or not - privately or publicly. How did you determine with such certainty that they did not? Please be specific, Bill.
First of all Bill, you have not explained why you would prefer the claims of a single, isolated reporter, over Connally's sworn testimonies. Will you be doing that soon Bill?
And why are you deliberately misrepresenting what I said? In the Towner film, JFK raised his hand to wave to the crowd. His hand was nowhere near his hair. He then pulls his hand down, balling it into a fist, just before falling to his left.
Two questions Bill - first, why would you support the individual who told the outrageous lie that those actions were the same as JFK pushing his hair back?
And second, why do you feel it is necessary to deliberately misrepresent what I said? Haven't you ever wondered why you guys have to continually do that kind of thing, in order to make your case? And BTW, since you will probably deny JFK's movements, let me post my presentation which illustrates exactly what was going on. I think everyone can make their own call on the veracity of your statements and mine:
Well, let's look at the images and count the pixels. This is my copy:
http://jfkhistory.com/altgens.jpg
Now, post a link to yours and let's compare.
continued.....