Robert Harris

Standard lore in the JFK case is that at the time JFK first appeared at frame 133 in the Zapruder film, he was happily waving to the crowd. And it may be that some of the witnesses thought the same. But we have an advantage over them. We can slow down the action and magnify the frames to make a much better determination of what was happening. In this animation I would invite interested readers to look VERY closely at JFK then and particularly at frame 139 where I inserted a short pause to give you a better look at his right hand. If his hand was turned outward, then he was probably waving. But if it was turned inward, it is far more likely that he had raised his hand to his head, exactly as we would expect him to do if he had been struck there by a piece of debris from a missed shot that shattered on the pavement to his right. I'm sure some of my newfound shadows will be eager to tell you what you are seeing but I would urge everyone to look very, very closely and make his own call.

That is absolutely correct. Pat, we cannot be certain about when he said that. She may have heard the tail end of that sentence as the 312 shot was going off. But the fact that she heard that "second shot" after looking back at 258, and then reacted within a third of a second following 285, has to trump anything else. I don't follow you here, Bob, and suspect you are greatly mistaken. Deaf mutes have studied the film and have read Connally's lips. Their appraisal, moreover, seems obvious when one studies the film. Connally begins claiming "My God" in response to getting hit almost two seconds before you believe his wife thinks he was hit, even though she claimed from the first, even before viewing the film, that she thought he yelled this out as a response to getting hit. If you want to claim she was confused. Fine. But you shouldn't pretend that this is not a problem for your scenario. Other problems I see... You seem to believe there was a shot at 160, but that no one heard it, or some such thing. Those claiming there was a shot at this time inevitably do so because they think they see Connally react to it. If no one heard it...then why should we think it happened? I don't get this at all... Also, while you correctly claim that the witnesses heard the last two shots close together, you seem to ignore that the bulk of these claimed the head shot was the first of these two shots...and that Kinney and Roberts--looking at the back of Kennedy's head at the time of the shots--said they were so close together that they just couldn't tell or some such thing. This, to me, is a clear indication that the head shot was the second shot, and not the third of the three shots heard by most witnesses. Pat, let's be specific about what the lip readers actually said. This is regarding frames 255-287. Gov. Connally is screaming and talking (his face is in shadow; he may be saying, "My God, they're going to kill us all," based on what can be seen of his expression By their own words, they cannot see his mouth and are only guessing about what he was saying. And remember, they had him saying, "Oh, no, no, no" beginning at 242-250. It takes me about 2 seconds (36 frames) to say that and I talk faster than most Texans. And he would not have run the two statements immediately together. He had to have stopped to grab a breathe before the "My God.." statement. 242 + 32 to say "Oh, no..", then let's say 12 frames (2/3rds of a second) to take a breathe and we have him beginning that second sentence at 286. Do you see what I mean? Seriously, try it yourself. Tell me if those numbers are reasonable, Pat. As for the timing of the head shot, that is another can of worms which gets a bit complicated because I'm pretty sure there was a shot after 312 which was drowned out by the much louder shot that preceded it. But Greer said the second and third shots were nearly simultaneous as did most of the other witnesses. And look at Kellerman's reaction immediately following 285. Watch as he ducks and simultaneously raises his left hand to shield his ear. Obviously, Kellerman was reacting to the 130 decibel sound level of the same shock wave that Greer described as the "concussion" he felt from that shot. Also in that same animation, look at Greer reacting simultaneously with Kellerman. Some alterationists believe that Greer's turns to the front and back then were humanly impossible. They're not of course, but they are damned fast. I was able to match them back in the 90's but it took me several tries and I was more than a little dizzy afterward. And as we all know, he panicked and slowed the limo which I believe further confirms that he was seriously startled then, exactly as we would expect him to be. Both Greers and Kellerman's reactions began at the same 1/18th of a second at frame 292. They began within the same 1/6th of a second as Jackie's and Nellies reactions and the reaction by Zapruder that that Alvarez identified. As for 160, yes I believe that some witnesses, probably a majority, heard it. But almost no one believed at the time that it was a gunshot. Nor did the limo passengers exhibit startle reactions to it. Obviously, it did not come from a high powered rifle and was almost certainly from a suppressed weapon. What the witnesses might have heard, was the sound of it shattering when it hit the pavement. Now, there may be another explanation for that but it seems pretty obvious that for whatever reason, it was heard by quite a few people. I know a lot of conspiracy people don't buy the shot at 160 but consider how many witnesses including Jackie herself, said the she was looking to her left when the shot was fired and that she reacted by turning toward her husband. She began that turn at precisely frame 169. No one heard the shot at 223 however, probably because it never hit the pavement. That's why most witnesses reported no more than one early shot. And that's why Connally never heard the shot that hit him. The nutter excuses for that are just BS. A bullet in the back doesn't affect one's auditory system unless he is rendered unconscious. There is no reason why Connally would not have heard that shot if it was audible. And the testimonies of the other witnesses confirm that they didn't hear it either. I realize that this is different than anything you have probably heard before. But if you think about it I believe you will realize that this explanation is the ONLY one that is really consistent with the known facts. Everything else from Posner to Groden, directly contradicts the witnesses and a great deal of evidence.

It is interesting to compare Duncan's blurry, low resolution image of that window (on the left) with a much sharper, high resolution image. Not only is it obvious that there are no boxes in that window (or little men for that matter), but if we look closely, we see in Duncan's image a couple of subtle but visible, dark lines. One of them extends all the way across to the rightmost cord and the other goes to the right at a descending angle of about 30 degrees, apparently meant to make us think we see boxes. You will not see them in any legitimate copy of the Altgens photo - ONLY in Duncan's.

Bill, the reason that LBJ and most other people didn't trust the Secret Service is that everyone thought they were "sluggish" because they just stood around and didn't come to JFK's aid until it was too late. What people didn't get was, that the reason they didn't do anything beyond looking around a bit was that nothing they heard prior to frame 285 sounded like a gunshot. Clint Hill didn't hear ANY of the early shots. Charles Brehm didn't either. Watch him still applauding as the limo passed in front of him. Look at all the happy, smiling faces in the Algtens photo after at least two high powered rifle shot are supposed to have been fired. If people would read about the HSCA tests in Dealey Plaza and think about the 130 decibel sound levels that the MC generated, they would realize that the early shots could NOT have come Oswald's or anyone else's high powered rifle. They would also realize that if those early shots came from a high powered rifle, the limo passengers would have been thoroughly startled and would have reacted as they did following 285 and 312. Once one understands this stuff, then all kinds of things finally make sense, including the actions and nonactions of the Secret Service and the statements of numerous witnesses who we previously thought were crazy.

The discovery is, although you are obviously too thick in the upstairs department to get it, that with the clearer Thomson Altgens photograph, it's easy to see that the window is not broken, and that there are boxes behind the window, whether it be opened or closed. There were no people walking about with lumps of sharp broken glass and dripping with blood after being hit with the falling glass shrapnel from a lunatic assassin cutting window blinds and then battering a hole in the window with a rifle. What a joker you are. LOL!!! You can't even tell the truth about your own statements, can you Duncan? "Miles Scull has brought to my attention, the visibility of the lower window sill in Altgens 8. The window must therefore be closed." Why do you now pretend that you said something different?? As for your moronic claim that you now see a pile of boxes in that window, because you drew in some white lines, I will leave that to readers to decide for themselves

"Miles Scull has brought to my attention, the visibility of the lower window sill in Altgens 8. The window must therefore be closed." :D Of course the freaking window was closed. I told you that a long time ago. Why are you pretending that this was some kind of magnificent discovery after you argued all month that the broken glass would have fallen on people's head?? They wouldn't have needed to break the glass if the window was raised, duh... You and Bill seem to be having a contest to see who can make the stupidest arguments. I think you are pretty much neck and neck so far

"Correct me if I am wrong, but you have been debating whether Connally said "Oh no ... no... no" after he was hit in the back as you contend or before he was hit in the back as I contend. You hold to your position because its part of your analogy that the second shot (according to Nellie Connally) was fired at a much later time than Z223/224." No, I am not arguing about when Connally said that. That is a given. The film has been studied by professional lip readers who confirmed that he said, "Oh, no..." beginning between 242 and 250. You can read the article here. http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/listen.htm And I have never claimed that the second shot was fired at a "much later time than 223/224". Both Connally and Kennedy were hit at 223, give or take a frame. And Nellie has NEVER contradicted her statements about the shooting - not even once. If she had, you would have been able to cite her doing that. Why are you pretending that she did?? And why are you still pretending that you don't get it? Why would you evade the questions which would force you to admit that Nellie heard a shot after she looked back at 258 and before the fatal headshot at 223? Why would you continue to argue after you know that you are wrong? Bill, would you like me to repost the questions that you have been evading?

Vincent, you are trying to substitute quantity here for quality. Your "theory" as I understand it is that Boring deliberately lied to his fellow agents so that the sniper(s) would have an easy shot at JFK. Is that correct? So, when you phoned Boring, you believe he thought to himself, "Gosh, I better get it off my chest that I conspired with the killers and lied to coverup my evil deeds. I'll just confess to this total stranger on the phone!". Is that what you believe happened, Vince? Or do you suspect that this elderly man just forgot the incident from 30 years earlier, which to him was a totally trivial and unimportant event? Which is it Vince?

(duplicate)

Maybe you'll like this Nellie Connally version ... a penny for your thoughts? Larry King Interview on the first and second shot: KING: Did you know immediately? CONNALLY: Well, I felt like then that it was -- John sitting right in front of him knew it was a shot. KING: He did? CONNALLY: Well, he's a hunter and a shooter, you know. So he turned quick... KING: To his right? CONNALLY: ... to his right and he couldn't see him because he was directly in front of him. And he said, "No, no, no" and turned to his left. KING: He visibly said that? CONNALLY: Yes. And turned to his left and he still couldn't see him. Now this is a second or two. Then, as he whirled back, the second shot hit John and... KING: Where did it enter him? CONNALLY: It went under his shoulder, out through -- under the nipple. It went through -- it took out five inches of his fifth rib and went through one of his lungs. He would -- which had all of that... (end) Now unless I am missing something here ... Connally heard the first shot his wife went on to say that the second shot hit John in the shoulder AFTER John said : "Oh No ...No...No" I will see if I can next contact someone I know and get a quote from the Life Magazine interview to see if I remembered it correctly ... I'll keep you posted. Bill Miller PS: Here is a piece from a post Ron Hepler made on Lancer concerning John and Nellie's remarks on when John said "Oh No,no,no" to the timing of his wounding .... "Nellie supports the timing issue with her testimony to the Warren Commission, "...As the first shot was hit, and I turned to look at the same time, I recall John saying, `Oh, no, no, no.’ Then there was a second shot, and it hit John..."(18). She reinforced the timing with her statement to the HSCA, “...John had turned to his right also when we heard that first noise and shouted, `no, no, no,' and in the process of turning back around so that he could look back and see the President--I don't think he could see him when he turned to his right--the second shot was fired and hit him.” (19) The Governor’s statement to the HSCA indicates that he was having trouble keeping his story straight, "When I was hit, or shortly before I was hit--no, I guess it was after I was hit--I said first, just almost in despair, I said, "no, no, no,...". (20) This Freudian slip indicates that he actually made the statement before he was wounded, but that did not fit the official story and had to be altered." Yes, Bill. Nellie said her husband was hit after he shouted but he said said he was hit before he shouted. I think I said that about eight times in this thread. And only an idiot would think that JBC was pressured to say that. If he was then his wife would have been too. Why are you babbling like this? You might as well type up a page from the phone book. It would be just as productive. I posted some questions for you. Why won't you answer? Would you reply if I asked you some easier questions, Bill? Or would you prefer to talk about Kellerman or Greer or Clint Hill or Charles Brehm or Mrs. Kennedy or some of the agents in the followup car? How about Mary Moorman or Jean Hill? I will show you that it doesn't even matter that Jean's credibility is questionable. Or perhaps you would like to talk about Dr. Luis Alvarez. You tell me Bill. I want to make this easy for you

I not only saw it - I was one of the main participants in the thread ... I remember a Gary Myers not liking what Connally had said or whether he got to see all the slides, thus it would have been on Lancer, but it was probably posted here as well as most stuff ends up on both forums. So its not a matter of me making it up ... do a search and go find it! It gets pretty tiresome to have people want to be at the head of a debate, but yet won't life a finger to go find it for themselves. I recall a researcher once saying that his Grandpa used to say that you can lead a horse to water, but you shouldn't have to drown the damned thing to get it to take a drink! If you chose not to research the article, then that is your problem - not mine. However, here is a lead I can give you by doing a simple Google search ... but be careful it would be considered research on your part to follow-up on it !!! http://www.google.ca...lient=firefox-a In the HSCA testimony it appeared that Connally stumbled and wasn't sure if he said Oh no before being hit in the back or after. So if Nellie is talking about hearing a shot and it hitting her husband in the back, then who cares if she thought he said Oh no 10 seconds later ... the Governor was only hit in the back one time and that moment can be shown to have happened back at Z223/224. If you were wanting to argue the sound only, then we would be discussing just how precise can Nellie's memory be to the millisecond? In this case she also adds that the shot she heard hit her husband in the back and that can be narrowed down to the transfer of momentum previously noted. Bill Bill, what is the point in just babbling on and evading another question. I read that Life article years ago and nothing in it contradicts the Connallys. And why are you pretending that this is about when John Connally was hit in the back? As I said the last three times, we both know that he was hit at 223. Evasion is shameful Bill. This is an important part of your country's history. How do you live with yourself?

That says it all, Pat. I am saving your other citations for future reference, but she seems to have been pretty consistent over the years, repeating the same thing she told the WC. Is there anything else she said that you feel contradicts a shot at 285? Look, we all know that witnesses are fallible. But in this case we have an opportunity to test Nellie's statements about the shot that she believed, wounded Governor Connally. And Nellie's reaction began at 290-291 - exactly the instant that Alvarez identified as Zapruder's reaction to that loud noise. And it began within 1/18ths of a second of the other three nonvictims in the limousine. Look at what else happened, almost instantly, following frame 285: Greer spun around at near inhuman speed and in his panic, slowed the limo, as he was feeling the "concussion" of what could only have been the shock wave of a passing bullet. Clint Hill leaped from the running board of the followup car, in immediate reaction to a gunshot. He (mistakenly of course) testified that JFK first reacted at the same time that he jumped. Charles Brehm heard the first of three shots, just as the limo passed "15-20" feet from him. JFK was actually about 18 feet away at 285. Jean Hill, who said the limo was "almost abreast" of her position when she heard that shot, snapped her head very quickly, away from JFK within about a sixth of a second following the reactions of the limo passengers. Mary Moorman also heard several shots beginning at roughly the same instant that she snapped her final photo. And of course, Kellerman heard the "flurry"; Greer heard nearly simultaneous shots and people all over DP said they heard closely bunched shots at the end of the attack. And I can give you another dozen examples which prove that there was a shot at 285. To understand the shooting in DP that day, you have to understand two facts. First, there was a loud shot at frame 285 and second, ALL shots prior to 285 were fired from a suppressed weapon.

That is absolutely correct. Pat, we cannot be certain about when he said that. She may have heard the tail end of that sentence as the 312 shot was going off. But the fact that she heard that "second shot" after looking back at 258, and then reacted within a third of a second following 285, has to trump anything else. That is correct. I believe that JBC was hit at 223 and that the 285 shot missed the president. I suppose it's not absolutely impossible that Connally was hit at 285, but for a number of reasons, I don't think that is likely. I see no reason to look at second hand statements when we have a dozen interviews in which the Connallys give us first hand accounts which were almost flawlessly consistent. Let's cut to Mrs. Connally's actual words, as you just cited them. Yes, that was probably the shot at 160. The shot at 223 was silent and no one heard it - not even John Connally. That is correct. And in fact, we can see Mrs. Connally as she turned back to the President and saw him in distress. Wouldn't you agree, that she is totally unaware at this time, that her husband has been wounded? That statement is HUGE, Pat. She said it twice during her WC testimony and repeated it in nearly every interview she ever gave. But look at the Zapruder film. She turned to the rear TWICE after 223 - the last time, just after 280. But we NEVER see her turn to the rear again, after she reacted to the shot at 285 and pulled her husband back to her. Nellie was one of the extremely rare witnesses in DP that day to claim that the early shots were closer than the final ones. But there is a well known phenomenon in which people's perception of time seems to slow down during life threatening situations. I think that after she saw the massive blood on her husband's chest, the next couple of seconds seemed much longer than they really were. Jackie described that time period as "an eternity". Her guess, based on a casual look at the Zapruder film, is absolutely worthless, because she had no points of reference which would allow her to know where they were at that time. And she was seeing in the Zapruder film, what she was unable to see on 11/22/63 - the anguished, painful look on her husband's face. Isn't that what convinces most of us that Connally was hit during that time period? At the risk of sounding like a broken record, the sequence of events which we can visually corroborate has to take precedence over any subjective opinions. We KNOW when she looked back at Kennedy and we KNOW when she reacted to the shot that caused her to turn around and pull her husband back to her. Nellie realized that he turned back to his right and toward the president and then back to his left, which we can see him do, beginning in the 230's. She obviously, didn't realize that he was writhing involuntarily in pain and believed he was checking out JFK just as she was. Granted, he didn't quite make it a full 180 degrees by 285, but she was IMO, well within a reasonable margin of error. Oops, the system tells me I have too many quotes. I'll try to finish up with a second message a bit later this evening.

Robert ... discussing this with you is a complete waste of time. Read the Life Magazine interview for it too is archived between here and Lancer's site. The purpose of that interview the author said was to dispel any misconceptions about the shooting concerning the Connally's take on it. It was to allow Connally (and Nellie) to be more precise because so many different interpretations were flying around as to what they believed had happened and when. As I recall it was Connally who said he said 'Oh no .......' as soon as he heard the first shot. I seem to recall that Connally spoke about him being behind the road sign. So in my view it matters little what you make out of the less than precise way the Commissions questioning went down and I instead rely more on the 1967 Life interview which allowed Connally to view each 4" x 6" transparency under high magnification and to comment on his thoughts. Nellie also spoke during that interview. Just as researchers had taken Connally's statement of how he turned to his right to see if he could see JFK and wrongly attributed that move to the latter full body turn seen in the Zapruder film which had he of done, then he would have had no problem seeing the President ... let alone out of the corner of his eye. This kind of thing you are doing has been an ongoing hindrance to researchers from the beginning because so much was left up to interpretation. The Life interview set out to put an end to all that. I have ridden in the replica limo and I know that the way Nellie was sitting that she didn't have to turn her head to see the President. I understand you want to look for a head turn, but that is not what needed to happen and I believe this was quite clear after reading their Life Magazine interview. Nellie was looking in her husbands direction when she heard the shot and saw John hit in the shoulder. That interview coincided with the other evidence seen in the Zapruder film ... it does not coincide with your interpretation of the evidence. End of story! I am sure it is no fun to make Youtube presentations only to find that you may have wasted your time and maybe this is why you grab onto a particular general reference to defend your conclusion. You have your take and I have mine ... readers can research the two and see if either one makes sense or neither. Bill Bill, you don't have a "take". You just run like hell and make up excuses for dodging every critical question related to this issue. Why won't you answer my questions, Bill? And would you please be specific about what you read in that Life article, which contradicted anything that the Connally's stated either in 1964 or in numerous interviews over the years since then? I certainly never saw such a thing, and I have to suspect that neither have you, or you would have cited the article, verbatim. As for your claim that Mrs. Connally could see JFK without turning around, that is pure, unadulterated BS. Any idiot can see that she could not see JFK while she was looking forward, and we can SEE her turn to the rear to look at him - exactly as she said she did. Furthermore, she could not have seen JFK with his arms to his neck, until after he was hit (duh..) at app. 223, when he actually did raise his arms. At that instant, she was looking fully forward. The simple fact which you are trying so desperately to evade is, that during the assassination, Mrs. Connally was oblivious to her husband being wounded at the time he was actually hit, and that she didn't believe he was wounded until AFTER she heard the next shot, which provoked her to finally turn to him and pull him back to her. And we would know that even if she had never testified or said a single word, because we can see her only glance briefly at JBC while his back was turned to her, and she was turning around to examine the President. It is ridiculously obvious that she did not realize that he was hit at 223 and her testimony corroborates that fact. You have evaded every question I have asked you Bill. And those questions are critically important. You cannot just blow off Nellie as another confused witness, because we can SEE her doing exactly what she said she did, and EXACTLY WHEN SHE SAID SHE DID IT. That's what has you on the run, isn't it Bill? Come on Bill! Man up, stop running and give us some straight answers to my very simple questions. Do you really think anyone is impressed by your endless, lame excuses?

Bill, there is no confusion at all about when that occurred. We both realize that he was hit at 223. The issue is not about what happened, but what Mrs. Connally thought happened. And there is no doubt whatsoever, that she was unaware that he was hit then. Yes, and since you refuse to answer the question, she looked back and could see JFK at about frame 258. This was 33 frames AFTER her husband had been wounded, and PRIOR to the shot that she believed had caused his wounds. LISTEN to me Bill, and LEARN. Mr. and Mrs. Connally contradicted each other on one critical point. She said, "I recall John saying 'Oh, no, no, no, no, no'. Then there was a second shot, and it hit John." But John was the guy who got shot, so he knew better. He said, "I immediately, when I was hit, I said, 'Oh, no, no, no'" Now, I realize that you will probably play dumb and pretend you don't get it, so to make this crystal clear for you, he knew that he shouted AFTER he was shot. Nellie thought he got shot AFTER he shouted. He began to shout circa frame 240. Are you getting this Bill??? NELLIE THOUGHT HE WAS HIT BY THE SHOT AT 285 AND DIDN'T REALIZE THAT HE WAS HIT EARLIER. And none of this requires us to trust anyone's testimony. We can see when Nellie looked back at JFK and see that she was not concerned about her husband, up to the point when she spun around to him and pulled him back to her - after which, she never looked back at JFK again. And she began that final turn back to her husband, within 1/18th of a second of the frame which Dr. Alvarez identified as the beginning of Zapruder's reaction to the loud noise that he (Alvarez) identified at 285 and 1/18th of a second after Jackie's reaction began, and 1/18th of a second before Kellerman's and Greer's reactions began. WOW! Ain't those coincidences amazing! Bill, you have evaded every one of my questions and pretended that you don't comprehend any of this. I just don't believe you could be that stupid. Why don't you stop making BS excuses and deal with this issue honestly? Take your time Bill.

I didn't answer for two reasons: first, this is not a thread about my theories, but about Robert Harris's Dal-Tex Broken Window Theory (not even about JFK's reactions to anything, despite its wending its way into it); and second, there are enough other of my posts outlining my thoughts on this forum that I have neither the time, inclination, nor desire to repeat them, or even synopsize them again here and now. If you're that interested, read them. (Sorry to disappoint by not being like others who won't shut up, but I don't think very many people here would ever suggest that I'm "bashful!") Did I say steel? Probably because I didn't think aluminum was in that widespread use back then, and I was fairly certain that they weren't made of tin (like cans used to be before they started being made with aluminum); some sort of "spring steel" or steel strapping made sense to me. I think I did say that I was making my points "on the fly," "off the cuff," or some other phrase that would suggest that this wasn't a heavily researched topic by any means. In any case, I believe that most of my replies refer to them as "metal," but no matter what the actual metal was, they weren't plastic. As to their being "easily cut with a pair of scissors," I'll put that alongside the "plastic" assertion: sounds like it might make sense, but who knows for sure? Never tried it myself. Duke, I'm sorry that you refuse to answer my very simple questions. In fact, the one I asked you about where you believe the shots came from, is highly relevant to this conversation, as is the question about whether you believe other shooters were involved. But I am not about to waste my time, endlessly dealing with goofy claims about either people or boxes being piled up in that window. I cannot prove that we are not seeing Santa Claus, a herd of buffalo or a leprachaun in that window either, but I trust my readers to be bright enough to see for themselves that such things are just not present there. And it is disingenuous to argue that since I cannot prove that various things were not there, that I must be wrong. Where do we draw the line? How do we "prove" that Oswald was holding a rifle in the backyard photos? Maybe I think it's just a tree branch and you can't prove I'm wrong. My argument is that there is no plausible alternative explanation to the blinds being damaged and the top and bottom of the leftmost cord being disrupted. How the term, "plausible" is defined, is the subjective choice of each reader. I can only say that anyone who thinks he is seeing people or boxes in that window is probably not going to be interested in anything else I have to say, anyway.

Whatever you say, Duke Hey! Why didn't you answer the question about your conspiracy theories?? I've always found that when I asked other CT's about theirs, my biggest problem was how to shut them up. Why are you being so bashful? I'm not being sarcastic here. I really want to hear why you are convinced that others were involved in the attack and perhaps, who you think they were. Also, where do you think the shots were fired from? I presume you're ruling out the Daltex? One of the storm drains maybe? The knoll? Oh, and by the way, I was absolutely wrong about plastic being used in venetian blinds in 1963. But the most common metal used in blinds was not steel either, as you suggested. It was aluminum, which was typically 20 gauge, and easily cut with a pair of scissors.

... and Boring's, And Behn's, which explains in detail, how the agents were supposed position themselves on the vehicles. Hill also described the same procedures to the WC. Notice that agents were NEVER assigned to stand on the back of the limousine. No one was ever told to "stand down". I am not going to open a new post, just to link the signature of Behn's statement, which the system is requiring me to do, but you can read it here. www.jfkhistory.com/SS/behn2.jpg These are the documents that Vincent never tells you about. Please read them carefully and ask yourself why, if these guys all lied, did they only come clean when they got a phone call from some unknown character asking them if JFK was a tyrant. Had they actually fabricated false stories and conspired to make it appear that JFK had told them not to stand on the back of the limo, don't you think they would have been eager to corroborate their lies when they got that phone call? The obvious fact is, they just didn't remember the issue and Vince wasn't about to remind them.

To understand what really happened that day, I would urge everyone to download the following, brief PDF file which contains the actual statements by the Secret Service agents who were connected to this issue. jfkhistory.com/secretservice.pdf Mr. Palamara phoned some of the agents under the pretense that he had heard that JFK was a kind of bossy tyrant who chased them off the back of the limousine. Of course, they defended Kennedy, saying he had never done such a thing. This happened decades after the event, regarding what was undoubtedly to them, a trivial and meaningless issue. If Vincent had actually wanted to get to the bottom of this, he would have read back to them the relevant portions of their reports, in order to give them an opportunity to correct their recollections or even deny them, providing a powerful and sinister indictment of whoever falsified those reports. But Vincent knew all too well, that if he refreshed their memories about their own statements, they would correct themselves, perhaps adding that such things were very rare. This is what Clint Hill told the Warren Commission about the Tampa trip from the week prior to the assassination, Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; there was. The preceding Monday, the President was on a trip in Tampa, Fla., and he requested that the agents not ride on either of those two steps. Mr. SPECTER. And to whom did the President make that request? Mr. HILL. Assistant Special Agent in Charge Boring. Was Clint Hill a xxxx? This is his signed report. And Roberts, BTW, folks. We have all seen the photos of Hill "crouching" on the back of the limousine in photos prior to the motorcade arriving in DP, obviously trying to remain inconspicuous, to comply with JFK's request,.

Duncan, your image is ridiculously blurry and there is no stack of boxes up there, no matter how many white lines you insert that have no relationship to anything in the picture. But hey! Since Duke sees a live human in that window, maybe his little guy is stacking those boxes up! Why do you guys see everything up there except what it obviously is?

Pat, my analysis had nothing to do with Thompson's quote. Someone else raised that issue and I pointed out that Tink misquoted the FBI report. It does seem though, that at the time the report was made, the feds were saying that Mudd knew the TSBD by name. So, it would seem unlikely that he would describe the depository as "the building nearby". However, I have never used that report to support my argument because it certainly is ambiguous.

Bill, there is no confusion at all about when that occurred. We both realize that he was hit at 223. The issue is not about what happened, but what Mrs. Connally thought happened. And there is no doubt whatsoever, that she was unaware that he was hit then. Yes, and since you refuse to answer the question, she looked back and could see JFK at about frame 258. This was 33 frames AFTER her husband had been wounded, and PRIOR to the shot that she believed had caused his wounds. LISTEN to me Bill, and LEARN. Mr. and Mrs. Connally contradicted each other on one critical point. She said, "I recall John saying 'Oh, no, no, no, no, no'. Then there was a second shot, and it hit John." But John was the guy who got shot, so he knew better. He said, "I immediately, when I was hit, I said, 'Oh, no, no, no'" Now, I realize that you will probably play dumb and pretend you don't get it, so to make this crystal clear for you, he knew that he shouted AFTER he was shot. Nellie thought he got shot AFTER he shouted. He began to shout circa frame 240. Are you getting this Bill??? NELLIE THOUGHT HE WAS HIT BY THE SHOT AT 285 AND DIDN'T REALIZE THAT HE WAS HIT EARLIER. And none of this requires us to trust anyone's testimony. We can see when Nellie looked back at JFK and see that she was not concerned about her husband, up to the point when she spun around to him and pulled him back to her - after which, she never looked back at JFK again. And she began that final turn back to her husband, within 1/18th of a second of the frame which Dr. Alvarez identified as the beginning of Zapruder's reaction to the loud noise that he (Alvarez) identified at 285 and 1/18th of a second after Jackie's reaction began, and 1/18th of a second before Kellerman's and Greer's reactions began. WOW! Ain't those coincidences amazing! Bill, you have evaded every one of my questions and pretended that you don't comprehend any of this. I just don't believe you could be that stupid. Why don't you stop making BS excuses and deal with this issue honestly?

Bill, you seem to be really struggling with this question. Perhaps, this short animation will help you,

And btw Bill, as you ponder that question, perhaps you will consider another. In her WC testimony, Mrs. Connally said, "I never again looked in the back seat of the car after my husband was shot." and "I still had not ever looked back at the back seat after the second shot." Mrs. Connally repeated that over the years in numerous interviews. And yet, in the film, we can easily see her turn to the rear TWICE following frame 223, the last turn being just after 280. How do you explain that Bill? And the last question (for now). Mrs. Connally testified that she reacted to that second shot by turning toward her husband and pulling him back to her. "I reached over to pull him toward me. I was trying to get him down and me down." I see her begin that turn toward Governor Connally at 290-291. What do you get? I am editing this message to clarify one thing. Of course, we see Mrs. Connally look toward her husband earlier than this. But in those cases, she went on to look away from him and toward JFK, or briefly, toward the front. There was only ONE time in which she turned to Gov. Connally and remained focused on him as she pulled him back to her and then pulled both of them down and out of harm's way. And as Mrs. Connally stated repeatedly throughout the remainder of her life, she never again looked looked to the rear after that. It is critical to identify that single instant because it is obvious that that was when she heard the shot that she believed, wounded him. This issue is a deal breaker Bill. It settles the conspiracy question. Evasion is despicably and shamefully dishonest.

Bill, I have no clue as to what you are trying to say here. Of course Connally was hit at 223. And of course, he was talking about the noise he heard circa 160. But Nellie didn't realize that he was hit at 223. She could only see his back then and thought he was hit by the shot she heard and clearly reacted to at 285. But let's start with you answering the question I asked two days ago. It is critical to an understanding of what happened here, and as I will show you, 100% consistent with Nellie's testimony. Your claim that she was too old to know what she was talking about in that interview was outrageously disingenuous, since you must realize that her story hadn't changed even slightly since she testified in 1964. This is it again. Please answer. Bill, I'm a bit confused by your "analysis" here. You stated, "I totally disagree with your assessment. Mrs. Connally describes two noises that led to first the President being shot and then her Husband." and then you went on to cite part of Mrs. Connally's WC testimony, which included this, Mrs. CONNALLY. In fact the receptions had been. so good every place that I had showed much restraint by not mentioning something about it before. I could resist no longer. When we got past this area I did turn to the President and said, "Mr. President, you can't say Dallas doesn't love you.". Then I don't know how soon, it seems to me it was very soon, that I heard a noise, and not being an expert rifleman, I was not aware that it was a rifle. It was just a frightening noise, and it came from the right. I turned over my right shoulder and looked back, and saw the President as he had both hands at his neck. Mr. SPECTER. And you are indicating with your own hands, two hands crossing over gripping your own neck. Mrs. CONNALLY. Yes; and it seemed to me there was--he made no utterance, no cry. I saw no blood, no anything. It was just sort of nothing, the expression on his face, and he just sort of slumped down. Then very soon there was the second shot that hit John." Bill, when do you see Mrs. Connally look back and see JFK, with his hands up to neck level?