John Dolva

It is almost the story of the "Lord of the Rings" / "Fellowship of The Ring", Jim, what about ''The Two Towers'' ?

''... . It seems like the entire progress of events begun with LBJ's abdication, including the RFK killing, was set up to put Nixon in, ...'' DA There is a possible answer if one also includes Reuther, the ACLU, MLK and Charles Evers. I'd even look at the other ''most dangerous negro'' (Hoovers), : The organiser of the Pullman Porters. Therein is the group to eliminate, that could have stood up to the plate. Nixon wiped the board clean. It took him many more years to still the unrest that the US had been seething in for a decade. Then he shuffles off, is pardoned and bingo : business as usual.

And yet! Ernesto "Che" Guevara was sufficiently ignorant of exactly how much effect agrarian reform played in his total failure in Bolivia. To chose a country in which reform had taken place as a good target for a revolution of the people, is not in keeping with the concepts fostered in Cuba. Tom, I wonder. The campesinos were wary of associating with Che's forces for a number of reasons, though not all of them. Partly the miners who struck and were massacred. A number sought him out. The US implemented a program to succeed where they failed in the Congo (where Che' also saw failure) of training and supervising and gathering intelligence to locate him. He was heading away from the Miners and towards what may have led him back to Argentina. For Che, failure was not ultimately defined by death but by no one picking up his rifle when he fell. That did not happen. What did happen was that he was extra-judicially murdered and his body and that of his comrades disppeared. This was to ensure he could not mount a defence in the eyes of the world and this would not have happened if the situation for the dictatorships had not been so precarious. In parts of Bolivia and latin south america he's today even treated as a saint, and he is a symbol to freedom fighters the world over so one cannot say that he failed at all. He died at the hands of cowards under orders by forces that certainly had no interests in the welfare of the Bolivian people. Whatever reform there may have been must have been token and in place simply to lessen support for the Idea of Cuba, a sovereign nation not under the yoke of yankee imperialism. In fact the events further bolsters the premise of this thread that agrarian reform implementation is a crucial point in the battle between capitalism and socialism.

in this instance that I'm hogging the board* and so bumping this topic to top to indicate I'm done. Sorry. Please continue. I'm interested in this exchange. *7 in one day is a bit much but I'm a bit strapped for time and sometimes a reply takes time to germinate so my posts sometimes come in bursts that can be seen as flooding or at least annoying. I'm more used to the IRC format where multiple threads coexist happily at rapid speed without fear or favor.

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Castro himself acknowledges that at the time Kennedys AFP was the only real threat to the fledgling sovereignty of Cuba. Interestingly when Chancellor Erhardt viswited LBJ in late Dec 63 ( with Ewald Peters ... ) LBJ by contemporary accounts practically ordered the West Germans to focus more on Latin/South America so that the US could committ further into Indo China. I've always thought the Germans, the French and the US of the times were not necessarily automatically beholden to each other so the Chancelors apparent obeisance to this somewhat rudely put demand could be indicative of something. There was friction between the Germans and the French and the US went from funding the French to unleashing its own war there. . Now if the Germans did follow through on this where can one find evidence of it? Argentina? Bolivia?...?

Jim, I find it a bit hard to place the Jewish strand that led to Marx and Trotsky, or communism if you will?

wow. I won't presume anything. I think there were particular events in Trotsys life that defines him. I think he must be viewed in conjunction with Lenins own words on him (and Stalin) to eplain his personal trits. Also his role in the struggle between the menchevics and the bolchevics, and then on to his role as head of the red army defeating the white which I think was the time during which Stalin built up his power base. You don't Exile and Hound someone remorselessly for decades to death unless there is a reason. Personally I think that is Trotskys contribution to Marxism, being the theory of permanent revolution, which if implemented would keep control over social morality in the hands of the worker councils (soviets as proposed by marx from a study of the paris commune. AND this must necessarily be international Would ''the english group'' be the ''Healyites''? If so, the negatiity imo is correctly placed at a cultish fundamentalist personality sect that split from the Fourth International. Further splits have occurred and it can be hard to find the real Trotsky. re significance :

Thanks Jim, I trust you are well. Yeah, good ole' Walker. It's great to get your perspective. He needs to be understood. Partly I think it important that if he can be seen as other than a ''buffooon'' of sorts then the moments when he stepped off the plane in Shreveport could be very significant. It brings to mind some apparently contradictory thing Gerry had to say about him ( see topic Walker - a pauper?'' from mem). If Oswald was nuts he was the KIng of Nuts. (imo) I'd really like to know more about his Norway assignment. Do you know much or where to find it? Is there anything to tie him (sorry folks, I suspect it would be benign given the times, but then I'm pre disposed to bias on that matter) to the Royal Family (Norwegian)?

http://www.greenleft.org.au/search/apachesolr_search/pilger

Without detracting from the particular matter, the following link and a study of the evolution of ASIO and the AFP may be of interest if only to highlight a possibly global series of events. http://www.greenleft.org.au/search/apachesolr_search/ASIO

Jim, thank you for that. I wonder if you are in any of that referring to: the relevance of Christ as a Jew is any of it referring to some occult school? _ Terry, I think you raise some relevant points that the wiki article kind of glosses over, ignores, distorts and essentially doesn't answer. Trotsky : , of course as longer term members who have paid attention over time will know, I see him(and his followers) as historical figures of significance and to understand events of the last century an understanding of him, his history and evolution (and nature) of thinking is important. I do think particularly his meetings with Cannon are important as there is a direct tie there to the US Fourth International, the SDS, the Militant, Malcolm X (kinda), and of course US intelligence. Trotsky really was a thorn in every-ones side (except working men and women of the world (imo)) but I think he went on through his writings to continue to influence the world to today and that is always something that neither the Stalinists nor the Capitalists/Fascists can ever destroy. I've read that Che' was reading him towards the end. I don't know if that's true, but Che' certainly became more and more an internationalist. I think all historians should read ''The History of the Russian Revolution'' by Trotsky. Trotskys' correspondence during exile with groupings and persons throughout the world shows a deep involvement on a fundamental basis and the need to assassinate him is clear when seeing him as the alternative to the dogma of Stalin and Capital. edit typos

true version of the Christ All these Baptist missions and lots of others jumped into selling Jesus as Judeo-Christian, when that concept is likely intended to mislead the masses. Jim, could you expand on these please?

I think he might be. Some months/year ago this came up with some recent photos. If he is ask him.

Love her or hate her, fellow australians, Ita's not likely to say important things lightly. The guy who is reported to have said murdoch has never asked anything wrong to be done must spend most of his life sleeping or something.

Belated thank you Tom. -------- If one looks at Castros Moncada speech (Great Orators and Speeches topic) one can see there the emphasis on agrarian reform. It strikes me that a vitally pivotal point in many events is when an agrarian reform is proposed. It strikes at the heart of systems that may otherwise be slow to respond. Like whoever said ''property is theft''. Communal Anarcho Syndicalism is the antithesis of a hierarchic system. It also is the point at which fascism appeals to the masses in the guise of the revolutionary left. There is, however, a general pointer to the Fascist : some form of racism. I think a lot of things about the Kennedy years can be easier understood in the light of current events.

Interesting thought, yes. There may be a CIA tie with the Dismissal of Gough Whitlam (and Murdoch of course) and a supposed note left in a Hawaiian Hotel Room. One thing Gough was possibly poised to do was to close or take control of Pine Gap. I think that was enough (on top of everything else) that made that coup essential. At the same time there was an influx of Chilean refugees into Australia from the CIA coup there. It'd be interesting to see whether there were any Murdoch influence there as in Australias bloodless coup.

Jackie chased a piece of JFK's head over the back/left part of the car. Shots from the rear do not propel large fragments in the opposite direction...the man's head was not moving at impact...any fragments would be gone - past the influence of any "head jerks" or spinal column reactions. The vast majority of debris from an impact like that goes the same direction that the bullet was going. I can't believe we are even discussing this. And strangely enough that which can be seen in nix and zapruder but not in muchmore, to me, seems to indicate the fragments going up at speed go almost perpendicular to a back front shot. Anyway there seems to be strong disagreements that simply tells me that much so far is subjective.

Thank you, Douglas. The other bit is a reflection on the hypocrisy in dealing with these high-flying looters in the context of current events. Also there is this seemingly studied determination to not go too deep into the Murdoch clans history and reach some kind of decision that's going to end in meaning something fundamental.

Ok, I've studied those frames in all sorts of ways allowing for fore shortening, changes in distance, movements so fast they leave a smear during the time of exposure, the springiness of the seat, car movements . all sorts of changes for quite some time and taking into account the speed and direction of major ejecta, I don't think a conclusion to this can be had unless a truly comprehensive study is done.

A couple of other thought I had is that there are also so called sharps on the move for whatever reason or nature. And that kinda legitimises what CAN be seen as an appropriate disguise. So it's, imo, one of those things that is very subjective and : (grace savingly) still not really necessary, afa I can see, in establishing id.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4nF-BTclRM Peter Tosh Live 'Equal Rights" & DownPressor Man 1983 ...

Not at all Scott. I wouldn't have offered my observations if I couldn't cope with being wrong. I guess people are hobos for different reasons. I think the oldie looks a bit shabby and no doubt his fairweather friends according to a hobo code make up for his likely short comings. Those guys would hardly win a best dressed award but at least they would experience less stigma. Many hobos are pretty honorable and work for a feed, clothes and board and don't necessarily piss everything up against the wall, and they see the world and get on ok, some do the ole' geographical but still with some semblance of decency. I guess Keourac (sic)could be an example. I, personally, see no incongruity re their attire at all, that's all. Also, I'm not sure it's essential to the basic argument. If clothes maketh the man, what about the P.C. photos of the three guys on the fifth floor. Sunday bests?

Led Zeppelin - Whole Lotta Love (1997 Promo)