John Dolva
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Posts posted by John Dolva
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Harry, it is good to have you elders amongst us to temper the tone, to lead by example, it humbles and instructs me.
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It was nice to come across photos of the assassination site showing more than the usual view. The first one here shows the northern half of Dealey Plaza and the second shows Dealey plaza as well as some of the surrounding buildings.
Thank you again Al, I don't mean to be difficult but I am also interested in a distance of over 80 meters, say up to 160. Can you comment on issues as one goes to such a distance? Also are you willing to talk about wound ballistics?
John
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Mark
OK, I'll check it out, thank you. if it is the long recording that I have then I can't find the sound bites I'm looking for. There is a written description of a 'whoopee' shout competition in the time leading up to the assassination. I've also got a recording of one of the last confederate soldiers giving a rebel yell demonstration. I'm looking to compare the two to see if the rebel yell was known as a whooppee shout in the 50's 60's. KLIF was quite the innovator / leader in radio in USA at the time. Other stations would 'pirate' their broadcast's by ringing a dallas home and getting the owner to place the phone next to a radio tuned to KLIF and then rebroadcast straight from the phone, I'd imagine at the time of the assassination this would have happened. So a recording might exist in Alaska for all I know. The breakdown in phone communication though might have made this difficult.
I have a recording of the hour chime from KLIF and would like to compare it to the 'liberty bell' sound.
John
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exhumation could put thing's to rest once and for all. a reading of various biographies of forensic anthropologists has led me to understand that a bare skeleton can be full of information. One can for example do very intense detailed xrays, very accurate reconstructions unhampered by viscera. I wonder what the current climate around agitating for an exhumation might be? Sensibilities are bound to be stirred. Even the analysis of pizzarros remains stirred emotions. Naturally a team of expert forensic anthropologists, dental forensics, anatomists etc would be needed. These professional teams have been assembled in the USA in recent times for such projects as the Tzar & co in Russia, Pizzarro in Lima, Mengele in Argentina etc. wonder when the time would be right?
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ah yes but is six really six? using dialectics one could argue that sometimes it might be and sometimes not, most likely never, so in a non empirical world 33rd degree is in fact a fluffy blurred mass composed of a constantly shifting construct.
it is well known by 97.333 recurring JFK researchers that anything that is fluffy is necessarily in poor taste, though I suppose some fashion conscious parisienne may argue differently, therefore as one would tend to expectorate poorly flavoured objects obviously it was the pixxies in the bottom of Dealey plaza that did it!! case closed!!
on a less serious note : disinformation, bearing in mind Caesars statement 'divide and rule'. I wonder if there is a history of the conspiracy theories from the point of view of : as a theory and a perp rises to prominence at some point someone comes along and discredits it, fragmenting the community again, I wonder if there is any instances where a very credible position has been in prominance and a premise has come along and diverted attention and by the time that has been discredited successfully the community is already somewhere else and the original point is not picked up again.
back in the real world... correction (see above ^ : the pixxie! singular NOT plural!!
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The dimensions of the area of white on the grass appears to be 3.5 by 5 pixels while the one on the bar appears to be 2 1/2 by 2. This is from a comparison from image below where in one the elongation appears to be largely in the vertical and the other in the horixontal. Of course this is at this zoom level. The horizontal 'blur' in the diagram at the beginning of this topic is here approximately 23 pixels.
(well there goes my attachment quota, I'll see about getting more (anyone knows about how that goes?))
referring to the image above :
the longer 'blur' in 313 is approximately 3 1/2 times the width of the area producing it. this area is stationary, therefore this shows the movement of the camera during the 1/35 second that the shutter is open.
the shorter 'blur' is approximately 4 1/2 times the width of the area producing it. therefore the limousine is moving at this point.
the limousine IS moving?!
if the camera was NOT moving in relation to the area on the grass then that would show as an area 5 pixels wide. meanwhile the 2 1/2 pixels wide area on the bar would have travelled W pixels.
the bar is 20 pixels wide at this point.
the bar is Z inches wide.
Therefore the limousine has at this frame travelled Y inches in 1/35 seconds.
the limousine is moving at X mph when Kennedy was shot in the head.
make sense?? help fill in w,x,y and z. pls.
addendum : As far as studies by FBI etc I think the info of their conclusions are available, what I'm trying to do is develop methods to verify/dispute that or any other estimates made by other methods.
The implications of all this could be quite far-reaching. If in measuring tyre revolution, comparing elongations as suggested in zf318ls and other ideas around and a definite speed is determined then this can be used to determine timing of events, film authenticities, missing frames, (plus frame rate!) plus crossreferencing to other films to determine their factors, coordinating them to an agreed standard? complicated perhaps but worthwhile I think.
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Bill, on the issue of shooter of blanks or letting off of cherry bombs, such a person could presumably be able to prove that such an event was purely coincidental, gun used could be totally different caliber, a pistol perhaps which is easier to fling away, then just stand there looking innocent and wonder why everyone's looking there or perhaps join the crowd looking?
I suppose that could be possible in some cases, but in this instance a witness saw the man with a rifle and not a cherry bomb. Another witness felt a bullet go past his ear. It doesn't seem to me that the conspirators were thinking about cherry bombs and such that day.
Good point, Bill, you got me there...I'm tempted to suggest a stick or something else that could suggest a rifle, but I suppose one could question why . After all other reports indicate witnessing of rapid withdrawal of a shooter.
John
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This is the JFK debate forum, not for poems about America that have little educational value. Maybe you accidently posted your poem in the wrong forum.
Sorry ol chap, and thanks for your sage advise.I Probably placed
it in the wrong section of the Forum? However 55 other members
have yet to mention it.
H.Dean
I don't mind, Harry, but then I'm not the forum either. I wonder what it is like to be an american, this may sound even blasphemous to some, I visited America a couple of years ago and admittedly it was a fast track through america through hawaii california denver santa fe saint louis washington new york and then on to canada. One thought I had is that there possibly are more americans living outside america who never had a citizenship, let alone a green card! A value I see in Harry's poem is a painting of an ideal, that unfortunately has been tarnished. Considering this shift, if there is/was one, could reveal broad groups, forces, interests that have shifted to the fore as aresult of JFK's murder.
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Pat I'm hoping that you won't mind this apparent divergence of thread, I suspect a number of members are ( I do ) looking here regularly for input from Al and others. Anyway, until you request the thread be taken elsewhere ::
I remember reading a historical novel of the early stages of the 'battle of britain' before dunkirk, when the british were still forming squadrons and changing tactics etc from those applying to biplanes of wwII to those of the much faster wwI planes. One squadron leader with prior experience in china, I think it was(or maybe spain), put on a demonstration of something that he had learnt and that he suspected the germans already knew as indicated by their success in certain battles. He called the squadron together for a group photo and when everyone was 'in the picture' by a pre arranged signal a gun was fired directly behind the group. the picture was snapped. EVERYONE, irrespective of where they had stood in relation to the shot had turned to look over their RIGHT shoulder! Once they understood this they could train themselves to not forget to scan left, hence lives were saved, battles won, an imbalance redressed. The germans had taken to sneaking up on the left wing! How relevant is this, I don't know.
Al, thank you for your clarifying input, much appreciated. I would like to hear comments on decrease in accuracy (or not) of silencers.
I may have missed it but do these trips include planning that say something like ....proceed down elm street, once the crowd is thinning out go to .. speed and proceed to mart...etc. on paper. I may have missed this too... was the slowing start as a reaction to the first shot, if so exactly where did the slowing start?
Bill, on the issue of shooter of blanks or letting off of cherry bombs, such a person could presumably be able to prove that such an event was purely coincidental, gun used could be totally different caliber, a pistol perhaps which is easier to fling away, then just stand there looking innocent and wonder why everyone's looking there or perhaps join the crowd looking?
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and if you take 11 from 11 you get 0 curiouser and curiouser...
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I've noticed that many of my posts have an element of speculation, so to kind of get a grip on that side of things I thought it might be useful to have a farfetched, far out, brainstorming kind of topic with no real subject beyond open speculation. People can dip into and contribute or not as they wish, kind of like a global communal stick it note. Illogical arguments and theories welcome. Spelling and precision unimportant, impromptu snippets and incomplete thoughts will find a place here. blatant defamation etc unwelcome. all standard forum rules apply.?? OK?
I have on occasion wondered if the assassin might be a serial killer!!
could one by looking at similar crimes find him/her? i suppose a serial killer could also be the classic assassin type, say someone from timbuktu , oklahoma or greenland??? with no discernible connection. no one may know the name, someone was asked to find someone, the financeers in fact would not want to know who it was??
arethere any untranslated obscure memoirs hidden in an archive in portugal that could be useful??
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I said "I am referring to the blur of the star in the hubcap : can the degree of turn be determined and therefore the distance of arc of tyre surface and therefore the distance of the travel during the time the shutter is opened (minus (perhaps?) the time it takes for the image to register on film emulsion? (ASA?)) Hence the speed of the limousine"
further on this, A joint attempt is being made to develop a methodology to determine the speed of the limousine. A thoought has led to the possible need for the exact dimensions of the tires on that day. Inflation PSI? Tread wear? Brand? comments/info appreciated/welcome
John
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Wow Terry, that's quite a document , it'll take some time for me to digest that. But thank you, I will and will return to it.
A speculative meander
(expanding on a thread that diverges from other thread)
Could it be that those that did it after all are those that "didn't" do it?
A successful conspiracy after all is ... er...successful.
a partial history of fingerpointing.
after the irish, catholic, yankee, niggerloving, soft on communism president was whacked
a communist patsy
a communist conspiracy
a Jewish executor
a JBS being 'taken over by Jews'
the mob (hmm not entirely comfortable with this part) italian presumably catholic? I have however lived near and worked with Italian's and a lot of the objection's about Mafia involvement does make sense, concern for the children, the means of execution of someone, I haven't heard much comment on just how close Jackie came to getting hit. I have an idea that the Italian community would find it hard to live with the idea that someone of them might have hit her, anyway this is speculation based on my personal feelings.
getting rid of kennedy was a setback to the civil rights movements.
Who hated at that time catholics, jews, communists and negroes?
KKK for one. The Hidden Empire, members in government, business, law enforcement, average Joe. A structure of intimidation and guilt. All the ingredients for a successful conspiracy. a speaker at KKK rally following assassination said "well, one of the good old boys down in Dallas took care of that for us."
Because I am comfortable with this speculation (until clear indication it is impossible) I am also comfortable with the line in the song 'sympathy for the devil' by the rolling stones (album beggars banquet, currently out of print, it has an interesting history by itself) "...who killed the kennedy's, it was you and I." Before I get inundated with howls of derision, please remember this is a speculative meander. What I mean is : to what extent was the climate of the time conducive to people becoming unwitting accomplices to the assassination.
There is an image that I remember from my childhood in sweden. I was 5 when it happened and I saw a black woman sobbing with grief on TV in what I have now learnt to be Dealey plaza. She was speaking but of course I didn't understand the language. I next saw the same scene in stones JFK 40 years later (yes, I didn't see it till then). now I understood her, she said something like 'why did THEY... ?? There are stories of a young black couple eating on a bench, they disappeared as far as I know. What about the Black man who had a rifle in the TSBD some days previously? backup patsy? backup rifle?
Who are "they" who could melt into the background and raise a smokescreen that has covered their tracks so successfully? Who are they that could be instinctively be recognised as threat by some? again : KKK? JBS? DCC? lists please. Who and where were they?
Possibly one reason that humans who live outside america seem to often contribute to imagery in this debate is that we can't go into public libraries etc and have ready access to important documents, perhaps we are free to speculate wildly, I don't know? I depend on the work of americans to get documentation. please, pretty please with cherries on top?
(Btw there are other scenarios I am comfortable with as well)
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John, I think that is a very interesting thought!
What do other members think of his suggestion?
Could the actual assassins have been using silencers?
The person or persons who planned the assassination must have been very intelligent. They may very well have lured innocent people to Dallas to "muddy the waters".
John's idea of a loud shot to distract attention is certainly worthy of consideration, in my opinion.
From military snipers website, '..you can take potshots at someone all day at 600 meters without them having a clue they're being shot at' presumably this gets less likely as one gets closer, however the idea of a diversionary blank masking a distance shot is not so farfetched, ... Al??
keywords : exterior ballistics
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I am referring to the blur of the star in the hubcap : can the degree of turn be determined and therefore the distance of arc of tyre surface and therefore the distance of the travel during the time the shutter is opened (minus (perhaps?) the time it takes for the image to register on film emulsion? (ASA?)) Hence the speed of the limousine?
My first thought was this could not be accomplished by way of a still photo, but the question you raise is certainly worth inquiring about. I'd still email Gary Mack and possibly Robert Groden for their input. I admire your idea about seeking various approches to double check the facts.
I may be missing YOUR point here but leave it with me, often a bit of thinking sometimes clears things for me. It is precicely the blur or perhaps correctly the elongation of objects during the time that images register of the fil surface that I am interested in.I applaud what you are attempting to do.
Can you indicate where one might get a good copy of the nix film. Great images BTW.I think I took mine from Groden's assassination film DVD. It may have been titled "A case for conspiracy."
Below is an example of what I was trying to say at one point. Brennan is sitting on the concrete wall and doesn't move between these frames, but the bluring that takes place gives a false impression that Brennan did move. My concern is how such a blur could effect the accuracy of trying to determine the distance the limo had traveled between frames when such a thing happens.
Bill, the way I see it is that this blur can be used to determine the component of the blur of a moving object that needs to be subtracted from the moving object thus determining speed. The blurry, previously discarded photos of the assassination may yet yield more information. has anyone got a stash of such somewhere?
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Bill or anyone,
Why would there be a flurry of shots after JFK was obviously dead? This flurry apparently included the Badgeman firing. Was it to make sure the world understood that this was a team of shooters (compliments of Havana)? One thing we can be sure of, it was not done to frame a lone gunman.
Ron
Ron - I think the reaction of JFK being hit in the head by a projectile is what caused the Badge Man to miss his shot. 3.6/18s of a second is not enough time for someone to see a bullet hit its mark and then have time to abort one's own shot IMO. One consideration has been that shots may have been fired in conjuction with one another so to leave the impression that only one shot was actually heard. Witnesses seeing a bullet sparking off the street at a time Connally was wounded is one example of this. I think Badge Man was off by a split second with the timing of his shot to Hat Man's and is why witnesses heard the 'sonic boom' sound effect.
Another possibility is that the GK sound was nothing more than that,a blank, to take attention away from the actual shot. If so that feint has been successful in having a large part of the research community for 40 odd years not looking in the right direction. just a thought.??
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Bill, can the degree of turn be determined and therefore the distance of arc of tyre surface and therefore the distance of the travel during the time the shutter is opened (minus (perhaps?) the time it takes for the image to register on film emulsion? (ASA?)) Hence the speed of the limousine?
John
great image BTW
I think the best way to do this is to use the Nix film. There may have already been an FBI study on the distance the limo traveled per frame. Write Gary Mack at the 6th floor and see if there is any data on this. The email address is GMACK@JFK.ORG
I am referring to the blur of the star in the hubcap : can the degree of turn be determined and therefore the distance of arc of tyre surface and therefore the distance of the travel during the time the shutter is opened (minus (perhaps?) the time it takes for the image to register on film emulsion? (ASA?)) Hence the speed of the limousine?
A good copy of the NIX film would be good to have.
As far as studies by FBI etc I think the info of their conclusions are available, what I'm trying to do is develop methods to verify/dispute that or any other estimates made by other methods.
The implications of all this could be quite far-reaching. If in measuring tyre revolution, comparing elongations as suggested in zf318ls and other ideas around and a definite speed is determined then this can be used to determine timing of events, film authenticities, missing frames, plus crossreferencing to other films to determine their factors, coordinating them to an agreed standard? complicated perhaps but worthwhile I think.
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The limo came to a near stop according to the photographical record - a crawl if for no better word. White House Press reporter Merriman Smith said that while the car he was in had stopped for a few seconds ... he could see the President's car and that it had only faltered (slowed) before speeding away. Moorman's #5 photo shows the rear hubcap still turning for the star emblem in the center of the wheel is blurred. Those witnesses that were more behind the car probably did get the impression that the car had stopped. I know of no witness who saw the limo in profile ever make such a claim as seeing the limo completely stop.
Bill, can the degree of turn be determined and therefore the distance of arc of tyre surface and therefore the distance of the travel during the time the shutter is opened (minus (perhaps?) the time it takes for the image to register on film emulsion? (ASA?)) Hence the speed of the limousine?
John
great image BTW
The implications of all this could be quite far-reaching. If in measuring tyre revolution, comparing elongations as suggested in zf318ls and other ideas around and a definite speed is determined then this can be used to determine timing of events, film authenticities, missing frames, plus crossreferencing to other films to determine their factors, coordinating them to an agreed standard? complicated perhaps but worthwhile I think.
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The limo came to a near stop according to the photographical record - a crawl if for no better word. White House Press reporter Merriman Smith said that while the car he was in had stopped for a few seconds ... he could see the President's car and that it had only faltered (slowed) before speeding away. Moorman's #5 photo shows the rear hubcap still turning for the star emblem in the center of the wheel is blurred. Those witnesses that were more behind the car probably did get the impression that the car had stopped. I know of no witness who saw the limo in profile ever make such a claim as seeing the limo completely stop.
Bill, can the degree of turn be determined and therefore the distance of arc of tyre surface and therefore the distance of the travel during the time the shutter is opened (minus (perhaps?) the time it takes for the image to register on film emulsion? (ASA?)) Hence the speed of the limousine?
John
great image BTW
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John,
There certainly are several factors going on that effects the amount of bluring being seen on the Zapruder film. One is the speed at which an object is moving. Another factor is ofcourse the panning blur caused by Zapruder. Like John Costella pointed out - some things within a film frame may be blurred at different levels. An object moving in the direction of Zapruder's pan may not blur as much as let's say ... a stationary object. I would suggest using a film taken further away where such factors do not have to come into play. The Nix film may be a better choice for seeking the speed of the limo at various points.
Bill,
from my previous posts : during the time that the shutter is open, the camera doesn't necessarily move in a consistent way, what I mean is that the camera may for example be almost stationary for a moment then move and that or any movement might be accelerating/ decelerating/ or whatever, so it is the difference in movement between the moving car and the stationary ground that to my thinking could yield results ???
I may be missing YOUR point here but leave it with me, often a bit of thinking sometimes clears things for me. It is precicely the blur or perhaps correctly the elongation of objects during the time that images register of the fil surface that I am interested in.
Can you indicate where one might get a good copy of the nix film. Great images BTW.
John
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The dimensions of the area of white on the grass appears to be 3.5 by 5 pixels while the one on the bar appears to be 2 1/2 by 2. This is from a comparison from image below where in one the elongation appears to be largely in the vertical and the other in the horixontal. Of course this is at this zoom level. The horizontal 'blur' in the diagram at the beginning of this topic is here approximately 23 pixels.
(well there goes my attachment quota, I'll see about getting more (anyone knows about how that goes?))
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correction: David, I must have had another thread in mind , please read David wherever I said Shanet in previous post, sorry.
hmm I corrected that plus a use of stephen at wrong place. trying to do too much at one time. Multitasking hyperthread malfunction!
further edit: Marcel, I'm not familiar with those term's, My reading after your post doesn't seem to be clear to me regarding the viewfinder main lens relationship. Do I understand correctly that the image through the viewfinder travels through a separate lens to the one that projects an image onto the film without ANY opening between the two?
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David, thank you, I must admit that 'in the heat of the moment' I didn't realise the significance of your statement re deblurring. Hmm I've always regarded the elongation of the various objects in the frames as blurring. Perhaps I've been using the wrong term. Michel's post helped me to understand this further.
so: my current thinking on this is that the elongation of the various objects in the frames is caused by the combination of movements of camera and objects during the time of shutter being opened, (taking perhaps into account the time that first registry on the film emulsion occurs?). The camera movement can be determined by considering ground as stationary. From this the speed of movement of moving object can be deduced?
*this seems to be separating as another issue of speculation on my part : I have difficulty thinking beyond a speculation that there is perhaps some 'constant' to be determined from the difference in angle between the elongation of a stationary and a moving object. Any comments that put's my thinking right in this appreciated.
Further: I, in hind sight can see that I overreacted in accusing someone of accusing me of plagiarism. I apologise for my part in diverting attention away from more important issues. David, I am learning that you are right re research atmosphere. However, right or wrong aside I think it has been an instructive episode. I hope that in the future I will deal with such things more elegantly.
Marcel, Is a schematic for the Bell Howell available? On a side issue I need to find out if there is any way an image from the viewfinder can get onto the film surface.
John
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The Irish Catholic was assassinated
The Communist/s got framed
The Jew can't quite see this one but he did complain of being set up, also there was an apparent attempt to blame the Jew by associating with JBS
Elementary my dear Holmes?? Who stood to gain by people looking everywhere but at themselves? The at the time resurgence of right wing bigotry in the form of the KKK for one. JBS? DCC? hmmm...i wonder who was a member/lackey/gopher in "63. And where were they at 12.30?
A question for Stephen Roy
in JFK Assassination Debate
Posted
Stephen, I am inclined to agree with you regarding the photo, unfortunately with regards to recent events I was hesitant to say anything. Even on the low resolution photo the so called anomalies occur elsewhere indicating that if they are to be used as a reason to prove retouching, a lot more should be considered suspect. The human perception of values of color and luminosity are quite subjective, particularly in the extreme ranges. For example three dimensional representation (or a mapping of grayscale values as a three dimensional graph) clearly indicate that there are large areas that are far 'whiter' than say the tshirt on the oswald figure, also some of the 'anomalies' stand out as being consistent with a light source from top right. I am wondering the mist indicates this is a breakfast gathering? One thing that I've often thought about Oswald is that he has a disproportionately thick neck while a hardly well filled frame, no wonder he is peering with such glee at the coming meal. Leaning up against post with his thumb hooked in back pocket perhaps? the area around right wrist shows anomalous pixelation, other areas in the grass do as well, so I don't know about this one.
John