Thomas Graves

Good work, Mark. Marvin Wise was interviewed by the FBI on March 8, 1992. Here are some excerpts from the 3/8/92 FBI report regarding Wise's interview: "When WISE asked what he should do with the three individuals, he was told by the [Police] Inspectors [in front of the TSBD] to take them over to Sheriff DECKER'S office which was located at an angle just across the street from the Book Depository." [...] [Note: The Sheriff's Department was in the same building that housed the County Jail.] [...] [When they arrived at Sheriff Decker's office, Decker was busy talking with some high-ranking deputies. While waiting for Decker, Wise wrote down the names of the three "hobos" -- Abrams, Doyle, and Gedney -- and wrote down some other information about them.] [...] "After obtaining the information from the three, DECKER [sic; obviously "WISE" was meant] was approached by one of the deputies who then took Abrams, Doyle, and Gedney into Sheriff DECKER'S office. Wise was told to wait outside of the Sheriff's office. WISE recognized the deputy from previous encounters but could not recall his name. It was likewise with the other deputies that he saw in Sheriff DECKER'S office on that day. DECKER along with deputies talked with the three for about five minutes. WISE was then told to take the three down to Captain FRITZ'S office. Captain FRITZ was in charge of the Homicide Division of the City of Dallas Police Department. His office was located at the police department headquarters several blocks from the county jail." [...] "By the time they reached captain FRITZ'S office, WISE felt "guilty and ashamed" that he was now being asked to bring the three hobos to the Captain of Homicide. WISE was convinced that these three had nothing to do with the assassination of the President. WISE did not want any of the detectives of the homicide department to think less of him because he was bringing these hobos to them for an interview regarding the assassination of the President of the United States." [...] "When the three were returned to WISE, he was told by a senior Homicide officer to take them back to Sheriff DECKER. The three were escorted back to Sheriff DECKER'S office without being booked into the DALLAS CITY JAIL. WISE speculated that because they had not been booked in, the single "dummy sheets" were maintained by the Homicide Division only because of their connection to the assassination of President Kennedy. By the time WISE and his three prisoners reached Sheriff DECKER'S office for the second time, WISE wanted to "dump" the three. In his own mind, WISE had wasted the whole day with these three individuals. Again, one of the [sic] Sheriff DECKER'S detectives escorted the three into Sheriff DECKER'S office. On this occasion, Sheriff DECKER did not even talk to the hobos. The three hobos were then escorted to a location outside of the site [sic] of WISE." http://jfkassassinationfiles.com/fbi_124-10179-10310 Here's my accurate synopsis of the pertinent part of this 3/8/92 FBI report as it continues: Shortly after the three men were taken out of his view in the Sheriff's Department, Wise was told that he could leave. He walked back to his police car in front of the TSBD. Five to ten minutes later he returned to the Sheriff's Department to find out if the three men had been incarcerated because if they had, he would receive credit for it. He was told by a deputy sheriff that they had been released. Since his police car was near the main entrance of the Sheriff's Department, Wise would probably have noticed them if they had exited through the door normally used for the releasing of prisoners, but he didn't see them. Wise admitted that they could have exited through the door on Main Street, but he said that that would have been unusual. --Tommy bumped for Mark Valenti

Good work, Mark. Marvin Wise was interviewed by the FBI on March 8, 1992. Here are some excerpts from the 3/8/92 FBI report regarding Wise's interview: "By the time they reached captain FRITZ'S office, WISE felt "guilty and ashamed" that he was now being asked to bring the three hobos to the Captain of Homicide. WISE was convinced that these three had nothing to do with the assassination of the President. WISE did not want any of the detectives of the homicide department to think less of him because he was bringing these hobos to them for an interview regarding the assassination of the President of the United States." [...] "When the three were returned to WISE, he was told by a senior Homicide officer to take them back to Sheriff Decker. The three were escorted back to Sheriff DECKER'S office without being booked into the DALLAS COUNTY JAIL. WISE speculated that because they had not been booked in, the single "dummy sheets" were maintained by the Homicide Division only because of their connection to the assassination of President Kennedy. By the time WISE and his three prisoners reached Sheriff DECKER'S office for the second time, WISE wanted to "dump" the three. In his own mind, WISE had wasted the whole day with these three individuals. Again, one of the [sic] Sheriff DECKER'S detectives escorted the three into Sheriff DECKER'S office. On this occasion, Sheriff DECKER did not even talk to the hobos. The three hobos were then escorted to a location outside of the site [sic] of WISE." http://jfkassassinationfiles.com/fbi_124-10179-10310 Note: According to the same FBI report, shortly after the three men were taken out of view of Wise in the Sheriff's Department, he was told that he could leave. He walked back to his police car in front of the TSBD. Five to ten minutes later he returned to the Sheriff's Department to find out if the three men had been incarcerated because if they had, he would receive credit for it. He was told by a deputy sheriff that they had been released. Since his police car was near the main entrance of the Sheriff's Department, Wise would probably have noticed them if they had exited through the door normally used for the releasing of prisoners, but he didn't see them. Wise admitted that they could have exited through the door on Main Street, but that this would have been unusual. --Tommy

Are you saying he was told he was being charged at the same time the press was told? Isn't there a procedure for telling someone he's being charged, instead of springing it on him in a press conference? Of course I wouldn't put anything past the Dallas police in this case. Dear Ron, No, Ron, that's not what I'm saying. A timeline says that Oswald was formally arraigned for Tippit's murder at 7:10 pm and that he was charged with killing Kennedy at 11:26 pm, about 40 minutes before the midnight press conference began. I don't know if the timeline is correct. http://jfkassassination.net/parnell/chrono.htm Watch the video of the midnight press conference. Someone at the press conference asked him if he'd killed Kennedy. Oswald said no, he hadn't been charged with that, in fact that the first time he'd heard about that was from the newsmen in the hallway when they asked him that question. Then an official says, "You have been charged with that." The look on Oswald's face is one of utter dismay and frustration. I'll try to dig it up for you. Here it is at around 0:32 : --Tommy

Dear Ian, According to journalist Seth Kantor's notes Oswald said, "I'm just a patsy" at 7:55 pm on 11/22/63, a few hours before the "midnight press conference" during which he was told he had been charged with killing Kennedy. http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh20/html/WH_Vol20_0193b.htm --Tommy

Dear Ian, Well, he knew that he was innocent, right? So, he realized he was either being framed or that he had been set up, right? Isn't it possible that he didn't know which? Now, if he didn't know which, but knew that it had to be one or the other, wouldn't "I'm just a patsy" be a reasonable thing for him to say to the press? --Tommy

Okay Mark... I guess you've dug into the evidence, read the testimonies, FBI reports, understand why the policemen in the photos are doing what they are and did everything you could to illustrate in a post why what I've offered as the Evidence for more than one set of tramps was incorrect... Thanks for leaving no stone unturned... oh... and that all the evidence in this case is so reliable and authentic why shouldn't we believe whatever is offered up for these three dirty, smelly hobos who were in jail until the 26th. I got a bridge if you'd like a lease option to buy? Yes, Mark, why don't we just do what David Josephs has been alleged to do from time to time. Cherry pick. --Tommy PS Good work! PPS Sounds like he's angry at you for being so thorough. Tommy - Is it absolutely necessary for you to be an A$$hole every time you post? I posted the FBI report and links to them I posted CHAMBERS' signature on the three arrest reports... I posted his report related to JONES and the tramps he was in contact with... There is not cherry-pick... there is evidence which shows that two different sets of people deal with two different sets of tramps. You gonna tell us now that Greer did the shooting as well? It's people like you that take what could be an actual discussion at a forum and turn it into kindergarten recess... What a sad and pathetic little man you must be that all you have left in life is to wait for me to post so you can prove to yourself what a witty and sophisticated man you are... and that you have a purpose... [emphasis added by T. Graves] I would like to bring the moderators' attention to the fact that David Josephs has used thinly-camouflaged obscenity in the above post. Isn't this prohibited? Thank you, --Tommy Forum rules: Terms of Forum Use General Posting Behaviour:- No member is allowed to use foul language and/or disgusting expressions. Members would be ill advised to argue as to what defines foul language or disgusting expressions. Every member understands what is and what is not acceptable. [...] Members are responsible for what they post on this board. A member will not use this board to post any material which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise violative of any law. [emphasis added by T. Graves]

Okay Mark... I guess you've dug into the evidence, read the testimonies, FBI reports, understand why the policemen in the photos are doing what they are and did everything you could to illustrate in a post why what I've offered as the Evidence for more than one set of tramps was incorrect... Thanks for leaving no stone unturned... oh... and that all the evidence in this case is so reliable and authentic why shouldn't we believe whatever is offered up for these three dirty, smelly hobos who were in jail until the 26th. I got a bridge if you'd like a lease option to buy? Yes, Mark, why don't we just do what David Josephs has been alleged to do from time to time. Cherry pick. --Tommy PS Good work! PPS Sounds like he's angry at you for being so thorough. Tommy - Is it absolutely necessary for you to be an A$$hole every time you post? I posted the FBI report and links to them I posted CHAMBERS' signature on the three arrest reports... I posted his report related to JONES and the tramps he was in contact with... There is not cherry-pick... there is evidence which shows that two different sets of people deal with two different sets of tramps. You gonna tell us now that Greer did the shooting as well? It's people like you that take what could be an actual discussion at a forum and turn it into kindergarten recess... What a sad and pathetic little man you must be that all you have left in life is to wait for me to post so you can prove to yourself what a witty and sophisticated man you are... and that you have a purpose... [emphasis added by T. Graves] I would like to bring the moderators' attention to the fact that David Josephs has used thinly-camouflaged obscenity in the above post. Isn't this prohibited? Thank you, --Tommy

Okay Mark... I guess you've dug into the evidence, read the testimonies, FBI reports, understand why the policemen in the photos are doing what they are and did everything you could to illustrate in a post why what I've offered as the Evidence for more than one set of tramps was incorrect... Thanks for leaving no stone unturned... oh... and that all the evidence in this case is so reliable and authentic why shouldn't we believe whatever is offered up for these three dirty, smelly hobos who were in jail until the 26th. I got a bridge if you'd like a lease option to buy? Yes, Mark, why don't we just do what David Josephs has been alleged to do from time to time. Cherry pick. --Tommy PS Good work! PPS Sounds like he's angry at you for being so thorough.

One possible way of hearing it is: I am no more than a patsy." It's reasonable to assume that all Oswald knew was that he was innocent, and he put two plus two together that since he had been to Russia, and since he was a self-avowed "Marxist" connected to the "FPCC", he must have been set up in advance or framed after the fact, but he didn't know with certainty which. --Tommy

Say what Jon? Everything about Mexico City was a lie... Everything. An asset of the CIA, Alvarado, even tells the story of Oswald taking money from Castro related agents to kill JFK. Helms finally has to step in to downplay that mess... Phillips was part of the interrogation and "lie-detector" tests... When Oswald becomes the Lone Nut Alvarado and every other link to Castro disappears. He was the perfect puppet Jon... I truly do not see how you would be privy to the workings of Jesus Angleton and Richard Helms in the late 50's early 60's. If you were or can explain how you would know what the planning processes of Angleton were - by all means... (You may wish to read Wilderness of Mirrors http://www.amazon.com/Wilderness-Mirrors-Deception-Destroyed-Important/dp/1585748242 if you haven't already) Oswald was not who he told others he was... not by a long shot... those that studied him believe English was his 2nd language... that he spoke Russian with a distinct accent from eastern Russia Dear Joseph, Eastern Russia? Where did you come up with that? Or was it from one of the Baltic countries (Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania), where Marina allegedly thought he was from? It's so confusing, isn't it, trying to remember the difference between Baltic countries and Balkan countries. Of course "Eastern Russia" is neither Baltic nor Balkan. Unfortunately for your Lee and Harvey (and Henry, too) Theory, Hungary, too, is neither Baltic nor Balkan. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltic_states http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkans Respectfully, --Tommy

If Paul is descrediting Harry - or what appears to be even worse... who is the real Paul Trejo? (Jon - just search on Dean's name here at the forum... or Google for that matter) edit - WOW! OMG, Don't tell me the bad guys created two "Paul Trejos," too. --Tommy

Because Harry Dean, whom Trejo has idolized and quoted heavily from in his "Unified Field Theory", is telling us that Trejo isn't what he claims to be -- a non-word twisting, honest "researcher"? Just guessing... --Tommy

Paul B., Please don't encourage him! Jeez... Thanks, --Tommy

I don't need photos of them to prove my point. The photos we have are supposedly of Doyle, Abrams, and Gedney. In the photo comparison you provide, the old Doyle, Abrams, and Gedney in my opinion look pretty much like the three tramps would look as old men. But if I understand you correctly, the tramps are not Doyle, Abrams, and Gedney who were in custody but are three other men. Thus we have six men, out of a total of six supposed tramps, who looked like Doyle, Abrams, and Gedney. I say that the odds of this are impossible, or to put it another way, I don't think the JFK plot was so incredibly complex and intricate as to scour the country to find three men who looked like three others. For what purpose? But Ron, Don't you realize that since the bad guys so obviously gave us Harvey and Lee (and Henry, too), they were certainly capable of giving us multiple copies of Doyle, Abrams, and Gedney, or, if you prefer, Hunt/Holt, Harrelson, and Frenchie? LOL --Tommy

Larry, "It was headed out over the overpass" -- going towards the TSBD or in the other direction? --Tommy

Hey... nice work on "sh!t"I Very creative! And well done, Cliff! You got a supporter here! Yeah, Greg, he's got an athletic supporter. LOL --Tommy

Who is in red and who is in blue and who is in black and who is in brown? This is becoming a very pretty thread. --Tommy

Devil's Advocate: But they still would have felt the shot's shock wave in dem widdle feets. --Tommy

I wonder what Holmes' excuse was for having an open line to Washington during the assassination? His plaza-facing office on the fifth floor of the Terminal Annex Building would have made an excellent observation center / command center. It's interesting that the W.C. lawyer already seemed to know that Holmes was watching the motorcade through binoculars. Mr. HOLMES. As it came out of Main Street, the President was sitting on the right in the back seat. His wife was on the left. Governor Connally, whom I also recognized, was sitting on the right of the middle seat. Mr. BELIN. Were you looking with the aid of any optical instrument? Mr. HOLMES. I had a pair of 7 1/2 x 50 binoculars. http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/holmes1.htm View from that side of the Terminal Annex Building: Thanks, --Tommy PS I wonder why keen observer Holmes didn't notice the same guy Jesse C. Price saw running very fast through the Grassy Knoll parking lot immediately after the assassination? bumped Bumped for Mark Vanenti

So the Vietnam war was good for LBJ and Texas-based Bell Helicopter. And Texas-based General Dynamics. Going from memory here, but --- I believe vice president LBJ said to the Joint Chiefs or the CIA or somebody, "You just get me elected and you can have your damn war." Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong. --Tommy

bumped for Mark Valenti

Good question, Greg. Let's see what we can come up with in the next day or so. And did Oswald / Prayer Man leave the camera at work, or take it home with him, or what? Did he remove the film from the camera while still at work? Did he hide it in the second floor lunch room? --Tommy

I'm bumping this thread for Mark Valenti. --Tommy

After the assassination, photographer George Smith was at Parkland Hospital, taking photos of its exterior. Sometime before 2 pm, Smith went to the Sheriff's office on Houston Street and stopped at the press office. From there, he went to the Schoolbook building. He took a photo that showed the Hertz clock on top of the building. The time was 2:19 pm. Nearly two hours after the assassination. He then took two pictures of the tramps. He then took some photos of officers Barnett and Smith, those are the famous "Dr. Pepper bottle" and the long paper sack photos. According to Lee Bowers, it was approximately 90 minutes after the shooting when a freight train was leaving the rail yard. Bowers stopped that train to give police officers a chance to examine it. That's when the three tramps were apprehended by the police. According to Richard Trask, author of "Pictures of the Pain," the tramps were arrested sometime after 2:19, and actually closer to 2:30 pm. The tramps arrest report was written up at 4:00 pm. Now. Let's get to your proof that, Brian, that the tramps were arrested sooner than 2:00. That's right, Mark. The guys who were most likely in postal inspector Harry D. Holmes' fifth-floor Terminal Annex Building CIA / ONI command center would have gone home by then, or gone bowling, perhaps. Maybe Lansdale knew a shortcut and decided to walk there. LOL --Tommy This is probably just me being thick, Tommy, but I can't make out what you're saying here. What don't you understand, Mark? Have you been reading the Robert D. Steel thread and the Harry D. Holmes thread? --Tommy PS I edited it by adding the word "Building" and a "LOL"

Oh, I see. You meant to write "the Strauses business partner" or "the Staus brothers' business partner." Got it. --Tommy