Gene Kelly

Jim:

Thanks for that confirmation. That connection (of Pena to JFK/RFK) speaks volumes about both the reasons and sponsors of the assassinations, in my view. This has also raised my interest in Thomas Dodd's background. The backstory goes some way towards explaining why the ersatz Oswald weapons were obtained by (fabricated) mail order. It helps answer a question that many have puzzled over ... namely, why a purported assassin would procure traceable weapons in such an overt manner, when one could simply walk into a local store and anonymously purchase such. Consider this excerpt from "Thomas Dodd; Dined and Downed", The Downfall Dictionary" (June 2009):

The Senator also criticized the John F. Kennedy Administration for not doing enough to remove Fidel Castro from Cuba. Most notably, Dodd was a stalwart supporter of the Vietnam War; when he learned that the U.N. Secretary-General was opposed to the war, Dodd called for his resignation. While this made him a good friend of President Lyndon B. Johnson (who even considered Dodd as a Vice Presidential candidate for the 1964 election), it created some tension within the Democratic Party. Dodd's support for the war was enough to merit his inclusion in "The Draft Dodger Rag," a protest song by Phil Ochs which included the lyrics, "I'm just a typical American boy from a typical American town / I believe in God and Senator Dodd and keeping old Castro down."

Dodd was also well-known for his attempts to secure gun control legislation. In 1963, he co-sponsored legislation that would increase requirements for gun dealers and ban mail-order pistols. When President Kennedy was assassinated by a sniper with a mail-order weapon in November of that year, Dodd expanded his proposal to include a ban on mail-order rifles and shotguns as well. The bill died in committee in 1964, but was reintroduced by Dodd in 1965. The bill finally passed as the Gun Control Act in 1968. Though more watered-down than its original intent, the legislation still effectively banned mail-order firearms sales; added an age limits for gun sales and prohibited certain people, such as criminals, from purchasing them; raised the dealer fee to restrict gun traffic to legitimate sellers; and restricted the marketing of heavy-hitting weapons such as bazookas and mortars.

When the first accusations (of financial misconduct) began flying at Dodd, they were fired from the newspaper pages. In January of 1966, investigative columnists Jack Anderson and Drew Pearson began blasting Dodd and did not let up for another 17 months. Thanks to four whistleblowers who had been on Dodd's staff, the columnists had managed to copy thousands of documents from the Senator's office. They accused Dodd of getting paid by Julius Klein, a lobbyist for West German interests, to fly to Germany to reassure his clients. He was also charged with receiving untaxed contributions and gifts from several companies, including firearms companies opposed to his gun control legislation.

It would appear that - while guilty - Dodd was thrown to the wolves. Another source is "Above the Law: The Rise and fall of Senator Thomas J. Dodd by James Boyd (1968).

Gene

Jim:

I am struck by Manny Pena's association with tracing the MC scope - ostensibly for Dodd, but perhaps more nefarious purposes - and his later obstructionist role in the Bobby Kennedy murder.

Did Lisa shed any light on the statement that he had traced the MC scope in 1963? I am interested in the provenance of that assertion. Was it G. M. Evica?

Gene

Paul:

Special Unit Senator's second-in-command, Hank Hernandez, stated in his own resume that in l963 he had played a key role in the CIA's "Unified Police Command" training in Latin America.

The LAPD began a cover-up from the minute this assassination took place… it almost appears as though they were prepared in advance for the assassination. Sandra Serrano (a witness on the fire escape who saw the controversial Girl in Polka Dot Dress) was branded a xxxx and not a credible witness. Earlier in the night, she had seen a young woman in a white dress with black or dark blue polka dots walk up the back stairway of the Ambassador hotel, accompanied by two men. During the police investigation, the LAPD’s sole polygraph operator, Sgt. Enrique Hernandez, did intensive interviews with Serrano trying to convince her that she did not hear anyone say, “We shot him!”

Transcripts show lie detector expert Hernandez badgering Serrano to renounce the testimony, saying she is “shaming Senator Kennedy” by keeping up with her story. But an agitated Serrano is recorded as responding, “That’s what I heard!” In the end, Manuel Pena, head of the SUS investigation insisted that witnesses misheard the couple, who had only said “They shot him!” The polka dot dress story was dismissed.

Shortly after the shooting Sergeant Enrique (Hank) Hernandez was interviewing another young eyewitness (Vincent DiPierro) for a lie detector test ... his intimidation was described as thus:

"He tried to brow-beat me into saying "You really didn't see a girl, you didn't really see a girl," so he kept pushing it and finally I just said "To hell with him ... I didn't see a girl." I mean it got to a point where this guy was really just manipulating me. You have to understand I was a 19-year-old kid and you've got this adult who I used to recognize as an authority, so I figured that I just wanted to get the hell out of there."

Witness were badgered through the use of certain interview techniques, the alteration of their statements or somehow through the production of statements to suit the police. The remarkable Sandy Serrano tape is the best-known example of witness harassment. Deputy Sheriff Houten proudly wrote in his book that the key to the case was the breaking of Sandra Serrano by Sergeant Hernandez. Rather than letting the evidence itself speak to the jury, SUS decided to deal with the matter directly. Houghton described their tactics; beginning with Pena calling the SUS polygraph specialist and asking him to take Ms. Serrano out for a “SUS bought steak” dinner. After an informal dinner with Serrano and her Aunt, he isolated Serrano at the police station for a series of aggressive interviews, including a lengthy polygraph interrogation lasting late into that night.

Gene

I've studied the RFK murder in depth, following the work of Shane O'Sullivan, Phillip Melanson, Turner, Moldea and others. I think that Manny Pena was a bad guy, intimidating witnesses, manipulating evidence, and going so far as boasting about his CIA bona fides. A clear plant within LAPD to control the case... just like what happened in Dallas. Pena coordinated an investigation that not only threatened and discredited conspiracy witnesses, but also by the LAPD's own admission destroyed 2,400 photographs, negatives, and X-rays of evidence before Sirhan's trial. Pena was put in a position to control the daily flow and direction of the investigation He was in charge of the investigation, polygraphs, and interviews of all eyewitnesses. Pena's decision on all matters was considered final.

When I recently read that he was the guy who traced the Italian MC scope back to California years earlier, it was like a bolt from the blue (ersatz as the Germans call it). It was one of those moments that I'm sure all of you has experienced. My heart sank and I was no longer willing to keep an open mind about the perpetrators and plotters. I do not believe for one minute that this is a matter of simply coincidence. It both angers and saddens me.

Here is a short list of ASC founders, supporters and benefactors:

James J. Angleton, Admiral Arleigh Burke USN, Ray Cline, PhD. Walt Disney, Senator Henry M. Jackson,

Major General Edward G. Lansdale USAF, Henry and Clare Boothe Luce, Admiral Arthur W. Radford, Sid W. Richardson, Eugene V. Rostow, Senator Thomas J. Dodd (D-CT), W Averell Harriman, General Lyman Lemnitzer, Mr. and Mrs. Charles E. Marsh, Speaker Sam Rayburn, Nelson A. Rockefeller, Senator John G. Tower, General Vernon A. Walters, Admiral Elmo Zumwalt

Jim:

I found the following excerpts from various articles, including “The Life and Times of Senator Thomas Dodd” by Dave Emory (1999). G. M. Evica also wrote about Dodd. Its seems clear that Dodd - a former FBI man and lawyer - was a Hoover loyalist, staunch anti-Communist, an advocate for Vietnam, and by no means a Kennedy supporter.

Dodd vigorously opposed Communism, which he considered the moral equivalent of Nazism. Although an early and enthusiastic supporter of the United Nations, Dodd grew disillusioned with the organization as it came more and more to represent Third World interests. He lobbied for Guatemala and Castillo Armas in the mid-50's. In the summer of 1963, Dodd presided over a Senate Internal Security subcommittee investigation of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, calling it a public relations instrument for Castro. He won a second Senate term in 1964 and became President Johnson’s leading foreign affairs spokesman in the Senate.

Dodd was on the payroll of the American Security Council, the leading public group campaigning to use U.S. military force to oust Castro from Cuba, and to escalate the war in Vietnam. The conservative Democrat from Connecticut was closely allied with LBJ and didn't like most of JFK's policies. Watching at his Georgetown residence on television the tributes being paid to Kennedy, Dodd offered his assessment of the Kennedy administration:

“I’ll say of John Kennedy what I said of Pope John the day he died. It will take us fifty years to undo the damage he did to us in three years.”

Gene

This from Probe (May-June 1998),"Sirhan and the JFK Assassination" by Lisa Pease:

In 1967, Pena "retired" from the LAPD, leaving to join AID, a cover for political operations in foreign countries. Roger LeJeunesse, an FBI agent who had been involved in the RFK assassination investigation, told William Turner that Pena had performed special assignments for the CIA for more than ten years. After his retirement from the LAPD (and a public farewell dinner) in November of 1967, Pena inexplicably returned to the LAPD in April 1968 ... just in time to head the LAPD group called Special Unit Senator that controlled the RFK investigation two months later.

As chairman of the Senate Subcommittee on Juvenile Delinquency, Dodd worked to restrict the purchase of mail order handguns, and later shotguns and rifles. These efforts culminated in the Gun Control Act of 1968, which Dodd introduced. See March 2011 Forum thread started by Gil Jesus.

Jim:

One reference in which this is quoted is Emory, Dave (1999) “The Life and Times of Senator Thomas Dodd” and also referenced to "The Gun That Didn’t Smoke" by Walter F. Graf and Richard R. Bartholomew.

It jumped out at me when I found it last year. I haven't been able to trace it back to anything more basic. It is quoted in articles that discuss Senator Christopher Dodd including those by George Michael Evica. In 1963, Dodd was involved with arms from mail order houses in an attempt to gather information allowing Congress to stem unregulated traffic. Dodd instituted the program on behalf of small firearms producers in Connecticut who complained of foreign imports. Dodd was a former FBI agent and long-time J. Edgar Hoover loyalist.

The inference from the articles is that Pena was working for Dodd, and that Dodd was not a JFK admirer. He allegedly had a a cozy relationship with the Castillo Armas Guatemalan government in 1956. He won a second Senate term in 1964 and became President Johnson’s leading foreign affairs spokesman in the Senate, but was censured in 1967 for finance improprieties. As chairman of the Senate Subcommittee on Juvenile Delinquency, Dodd worked to restrict the purchase of mail order handguns, and later shotguns and rifles.

Oswald allegedly ordered his pistol from Seaport Traders two days before Dodd's subcommittee began hearings on the matter on January 29, 1963.

Gene

Jim:

I second Jon's observation... that is a great article. Whenever i read about RFK, certain facts resonate.

The RFK story parallels JFK's murder in many respects. Just as Bill Kelly has seen parallels to Valkyrie with the JFK plot, I see remarkable analogies between the setup/conduct of both Kennedy assassinations. Not to redirect this thread from the Washington Post point, but there is a "coincidence" that strikes me deeply. So much that I feel compelled to highlight it here. It serves to ground or calibrate me; it clinches any doubts in my mind that there was a more innocent explanation for all of the things that swirl about the case. It's called Manuel Pena...

An investigator allegedly looking into interstate firearms sales during early 1963 (for Senator Chris Dodd's Subcommittee) was one Manuel Pena, the same Los Angeles police lieutenant who later one of the LAPD officers investigating Robert Kennedy's assassination. It was Pena who traced Oswald's telescopic sight to a California gun shop! This for me is another one of those amazing coincidences associated with the case... one that I cannot accept as simply coincidence, one that has the strong scent of conspiracy.

Gene

Paul:

In April 18, 1968, Ruth Paine was questioned about George DeMohrenschildt by the Orleans Parish Grand Jury. She described a dinner that she and Michael had with the De DeMohrenschildts, where they discussed the inscribed backyard picture:

Q - You mentioned the de DeMohrenschildts, did you ever have occasion to talk to them much at the first party (February 1963)? A- No.

Q - Did you see them subsequent to the party? A - I have seen them only once again, it was in Dallas, maybe a year ago, it was long after the assassination.

Q - What as the occasion? A - They called and asked Michael and me to come have dinner with them. Understand that this was the second time I had met them, the first time Michael met them, he was invited to dinner also, but Michael had not been at this party in February of ' 63, and I think they came back to this country ' after having been away for quite a while, how long they were away I don't know...

Q - Did you discuss the assassination or Lee or anything? A - Yes

Q - What was the general tenor of that conversation? A - One thing I remember, I guess they packed and left, some- where they went, subsequent to that meeting at Glover's, and it was after they arrived he said he found in his luggage the same picture that appeared in Life Magazine of Oswald holding the rifle and the gun on his hip, and it gave him such a turn, it was afterward, after the assassination, and we just talked generally of the events.

What's your read on this dinner meeting. Why would George want to talk with the Paines?

Regards,

Gene

Seems to me that George was a con artist .... a guy who could sell ice to the Eskimos. When Gary Taylor, who had been married to De Mohrenschildt’s daughter Alexandra, was asked by a Warren Commission counsel if he thought DeMohrenschildt had any influence over Oswald, Taylor replied that there seemed to be a great deal of influence. At the end of his questioning, Taylor was asked if he had any further comments:

"Well," he said, "the only thing that occurred to me was that -- uh -- and I guess it was from the beginning -- that if there was any assistance or plotters in the assassination that it was, in my opinion, most probably the DeMohrenschildt’s."

If I had to make an educated guess, George had ties to the Gehlen Organization which spied on Russia. After the War, the Gehlen Organization was assimilated (by Allen Dulles and others) into CIA operations to maintain spying on Russia. One writer stated that De Mohrenschildt appears as more of a triple agent, with ties to both Gehlen and the CIA. George initially 'babysat' Lee and family - handed them off to the Paines - and then went off the grid in Haiti for four years. Jeff Morley stated that George would have made a splendid character in a Graham Greene novel. As for kindred spirits, here is what George thought of Jim Garrison:

"As it stands now, Oswald was a lunatic who killed President Kennedy. Ruby was another lunatic who killed the lunatic who killed the President - and now we have the third lunatic, supposedly Garrison, who tries to investigate this whole case. I think it is extremely insulting to the United States, the assumption, that there are so many lunatics here."

I find it interesting that in 1954, an oil lawyer named Herbert Itkin arranged a meeting in Philadelphia with Allen Dulles, who in turn set him up for a meeting with de Mohrenschildt - described as "that man in Philadelphia" and that his name was Philip Harbin ... an alias used by George, obviously derived from his wife, Jeanne, was from Harbin, China. Bill Simpich believes that George was provided to Allen Dulles by James Angleton. You just simply can't make this stuff up ... talk about Six degrees of Kevin Bacon.

Ruth Paine and Jim Garrison .... kindred spirits? I wonder if the "sharp sting of her grief" at JFK's loss has finally waned after 50 years?

Regarding being "occasionally mean" to Marina, another nice letter (from another gentle soul) was sent to Janet Auchincloss, mother of Jackie Kennedy, painting the same mean-spirited picture of Oswald. George De Mohrenschildt wrote form Haiti to Janet - one of his many 'acquaintances' - on December 12^th:

"Both my wife and I tried to help poor Marina who could not speak any English, was mistreated by her husband; she and the baby were malnourished and sickly. We took them to the hospital. Sometime last fall we heard that Oswald had beaten his wife cruelly, so we drove to their miserable place and forcibly took Marina and the child away from the character. Then he threatened me and my wife, but I did not take him seriously. Marina stayed with the family of Russian refugees for a while, keeping her baby, but finally decided to return to her husband. Somehow then we lost interest in the Oswalds. It is really a shame that such crimes occur in our times and in our country. But there is so much jealousy for success and there is so much desire for publicity on the part of all shady characters that assassinations are bound to occur. Better precautions should have been taken. Remember our discussion one day on the plane from Dallas to Washington? We spoke of criminal children and of the terrible problem of delinquency in the South ... Oswald is just an expression of that cancer which is eating American youth.”

Birds of a feather ...

If there are ways I can help I shall be glad. I was struck by your passionate concern for Man, and by the intense grief you feel over the loss of President Kennedy. I, too, feel that loss acutely. He was a most remarkable person, and extremely valuable to our country. Besides his charm and brilliance as a man he also was a president inoculated by the experience of the Bay of Pigs. He had taken the measure of the "expert advice" of generals (and the CIA) and had found it wanting. He was a man prepared to do his own thinking in a framework of the highest regard for man, for life and for civilization. For myself, I have given up wondering when the sharp sting of my grief over his loss will wane. I have concluded it never shall, and in that I found you kindred. – April 1968 letter from Ruth Paine to Jim Garrison

Thanks for your response, David. Lots to think about here.

I've raised this question before, as it seems the MC is not a random or unimportant choice. Perhaps there a ballistic rationale for this particular weapon (e.g. impossible to silence, easy to break-down, commonly available, etc.). It is certainly not the type of weapon that one would trace back to expert military sniper operations. Assuming that this was a thoughtful plant on the part of calculating planners - and of all of the possible weapons to chose from - why pick the lowly MC to frame LHO?

William Orchard's "The Shots in Dealey Plaza" (November 2011) states that the decision to pin an inferior Italian rifle on the patsy was "a sign of disrespect for the FBI" as far as the crime scene was concerned ... a show of contempt, to consciously to create problems for the FBI with the selection of a poorly designed weapon. He goes on to speculate that the MC was not only used as an insult to the FBI (who they knew would have to investigate and reconcile the murder scene) but intended to make it clear to the entire world that the assassination had been carried out by the Italian mafia ... a symbol of Italian pride. In this sense, the MC is as much a patsy as is Oswald.

There are some things that just stand out as glaring signs of contrived plotting (e.g. Tippit's murder) and for me, this particular MC weapon is one of those. It was traced back to Kleins very quickly, just as Oswald was arrested in record-breaking time. The MC comes across as some form of internal joke or message being traded between the plotters and the FBI. Or perhaps it was a signal (on the part of a faction trying to stop the plot) that the shooting was not what it appeared to be, and not possible from the TSBD location. I struggle to put my finger on it, and cannot help but see it as symbolic and strategic.

Gene

PS. It also has the fingerprints of Harvey and Angleton, imho

David:

I am intrigued by the selection of the Italian rifle as the incriminating weapon. And i am interested in whether you see any significance to this particular rifle (of all the rifles in the universe) being the one.

Early on, there are reports of three different rifles being the murder weapon after the assassination: (1) a British Enfield, (2) a German Mauser and (3) an Italian Mannlicher Carcano. All three are apparently in the TSBD, and each can be linked with various principals, from Frazier, to Shelley to Oswald. Some think the Carcano was planted because it was so cheap, or because it was readily available by mail order. Perhaps it is because it was difficult to trace its provenance (i.e. imported by imported by Crescent Firearms, shortened version, retrofitted and modified, several serial numbers etc.).

CIA had supplied Argentine Mausers to Castro for revolution: combined with Oswald's perceived association with Cuba and communism, the Mauser links Castro to Kennedy's murder. Perhaps opposing forces (e.g. FBI) switched the Mauser for a Carcano to detour an invasion of Cuba. However, I remain convinced that there is some deeper significance to the selection of this particular style and make.

Gene

On the lighter side, my first car was a 1959 Rambler Ambassador. Push-button transmission, fold-down seats, and built like a tank. For the record, it was green (no luggage rack).

Just an observation (not sure it answers the good questions raised) but for me, Hoover's single strongest instinct was always to protect the FBI and his continued Agency existence and reputation. What if this behavior is not connected to either a plot or cover-up? The FBI is being blackmailed (by the plotters) because of Oswald's previous affiliations (informant, paid interloper, interviewed/ well-known by the FBI, etc.) The plotters obviously knew this (e.g. Harvey comes to mind) and understood that the FBI/Hoover would do everything in their power to deflect any criticism or links. I also recall a cogent comment (not sure who) about why a ceremonial Mannlicher-Carcano (of all the rifles in the universe) was ultimately chosen as the smoking gun... to somehow taunt or embarrass the FBI.

The 6.5mm Carcano was referred to as the "Humanitarian Rifle", a name was given to it by the Italian troops who carried it because of its inability to kill its target. The rifling in the barrels were fouled with lead to the point of making the rifle inaccurate... the bullets did not expand when they hit enemy soldiers; the bullets passed through an enemy combatant and caused little damage. In fact, it was designed to cause limited damage in a wound. Apparently the Italian authorities knew that this was a carbine that "couldn't hit the water from a boat". Perhaps there is an "inside" joke embedded in this particular ineffective weapon being chosen as the immortal smoking gun (Angleton and his affiliations with the Italians comes to mind).

There were many rifles being considered as the murder weapon. The story of an Oswald impostor's attempt to purchase a rifle from Castro's close friend, Robert McKeown, in September, 1963 suggests that the choice of a rifle to be placed on the 6th floor of the TSBD had not yet been made. The rifle shown on the Life magazine cover was a rare model known as a Moschettieri del Duce Carcano... a ceremonial rifle of Mussolini's Guard, of which only a few hundred were ever made. Again, the choice of this particular weapon simply fascinates me.

The Post Box evidence is not the only evidence offered (by the Warren Report) to link Oswald to the Carcano. Other evidence includes the infamous "backyard photographs" (acquired by Life form an "unknown" DPD officer), the testimony of the DeMohrenschildts and Marina, the mysterious contents of the brown paper bag Oswald is alleged to have carried into the TSBD on the day of the assassination, the analysis of the handwriting on the Klein's order slip and the apparent linkage between Oswald and the A. Hidell alias.

Also, there was a deliberate attempt to initially pass the murder weapon off as a Mauser. Three days after the assassination, a CIA report (surfaced in 1976) identified the gun as a Mauser. CIA somehow saw a need (even after two days) to slowly back off of the Mauser story but keep things confused by not yet committing fully to the 6.5-millimetre Mannlicher-Carcano. For some, this leads to Senator Thomas Dodd who had been investigating arms from mail order houses to help Congress to stem unregulated arms traffic. Dodd, was a former FBI agent and long-time J. Edgar Hoover loyalist. He was also a leading member of the Cuba Lobby (evolved from the right-wing China Lobby) through which he was in touch with Cuban-exile mercenaries. After the assassination. Dodd (a member of the American Security Council) helped the Senate Internal Security Subcommittee publish a story that Oswald bad been trained at a KGB assassination school in Minsk.

Perhaps the selection of the right patsy was not determined right away. There were initial reports of three different models of rifle being the murder weapon. The first was a British Enfield, which could be linked to Buell Wesley Frazier. The second was a German Mauser, which could be linked to Caster, Truly and Shelley.
The third was the Mannlicher Carcano... infamously linked back to Alex Hidell that linked back to Oswald.

“Ruth is a perfectly charming, charitable Quaker ... who helped the Oswalds out of pure humanitarian impulses ... she and her husband were simply admirable people.” – George de Mohrenschildt

One casual dinner in the company of Michael and Ruth Paine was enough to set the Oswald's course. Apparently, George and Jeanne didn't have to meet with them again. It must have been quite an impression that Ruth made in that single setting.

But if George de M. stated this, it must be gospel ... right? He was just an engineer, Oil geologist, if you will. But also a sophisticated and articulate member of the Russian emigre community in Dallas, who taught at a local college, and traveled throughout the Americas. Collected rich wives. one of whom (Phyllis Washington) worked for Radio Free Europe in the early fifties. His brother Dimitri was employed in a confidential capacity by the U.S. government. Introduced (code name Harbin, his wife's hometown in China) to a New York lawyer named Herbert Itkin by Allen Dulles... what a coincidence! A petrochemical consultant with the Agency for International Development (AID) in 1961. Moved to Haiti in mid-1963, where he conveniently remained for over four years, out of the country (out of sight) and nowhere to be seen in November 1963. But he was also acquainted with Janet Auchincloss, mother of Jackie Kennedy, and wrote her a letter from Haiti on December 12^th describing that poor young couple and the dead assassin for whom he was a mentor and so-called best friend:

Sometime last fall we heard that Oswald had beaten his wife cruelly, so we drove to their miserable place and forcibly took Marina and the child away from the character. Then he threatened me and my wife, but I did not take him seriously. Marina stayed with the family of Russian refugees for a while, keeping her baby, but finally decided to return to her husband. Somehow then we lost interest in the Oswalds. It is really a shame that such crimes occur in our times and in our country.

Perfectly charming and charitable ... sound familiar?

To quote Ferris Bueller:

"I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. Life moves pretty fast. If you don’t stop and look around once in a while, you might miss it."

Jon:

Here are a few candidates:

George A. Bouhe, 4740 Homer Street, Dallas TX. I believe that there was correspondence and mail between Ruth and Bouhe. Jim Garrison later asked Ruth if she knew that Bouhe lived a door down from Ruby; that they knew each other, and shared a common swimming pool. Marina apparently did know because, right after the assassination, Bouhe came to visit her and told her that it was all just a coincidence.

Gary Taylor, George de Mohrenschildt’s estranged son-in-law, who visited the Neely Street apartment.

Gene

Paul:

You seem intent on labeling me, which I find offensive. I don't see spooks in my neighborhood, nor am I paranoid. I'm not a "CT'er". I am simply interested in what happened to John Kennedy, and intrigued by all of the stories and loose ends (for want of a better word) associated with it.

I am not interested in debating you, nor am I obligated to provide you anything, such as the evidence or facts that you demand ad nauseum. I am here to learn, and trade ideas and opinions with knowledgeable members of the Forum. I observe many coincidences associated with the subject of this thread (the Paines). It is my opinion that there is more to the Paines than meets the eye. I believe the same is true of Marina Prusakova. Given the nature of the intelligence operations and professionals involved in the assassination, coincidence usually equates with "enemy action" and is all the more suspect.

Regards,

Gene

Paul:

I have no further knowledge of Mr. Porter beyond the fact that he worked at Collins. For me, its just another one of those many "coincidences" that crop up all around the Oswalds and Paines.

On one hand, Mrs. Porter has remained in the Dallas area and is apparently still married to Mr. Porter after all these years. Quite an accomplishment in this day and age. On the other hand, there has been much written about Collins Radio and its government connections, including the Carl Mather (Tippit neighbor) incident, the mission(s) of the Rex ship, and Oswald's visit with retired Admiral Chester Brouton, a Collins executive, to name a few.

So it seems odd that two years after the assassination, Marina marries a man from Collins. She was so young at the time (24) and it was a volatile period for the post-Warren cover-up. Ruby was still alive and in jail (trying to talk). Witnesses were being eliminated (Dorothy Kilgallen was killed in November 1965) but Garrison wouldn't start his investigation for another year. Some biographies state that she "perfected her English" in those ensuing years. Had a son with Porter, became a naturalized citizen, and generally stayed out of the limelight. Pure speculation on my part, but it would seem that a protective layer would be formed around her.

Gene

And two years after the assassination, Marina married a former Collins Radio employee, Kenneth Porter ...

Scott:

Sorry for the spelling error. Believe it or not, my boss's boss's name is Scot (one 't') and it took me the better part of a year to learn to not spell it with two t's. He is pretty sensitive about that. After a few pithy emails from above, and some gentle admonishment, I finally got it straight. Then you come along ... and when I responded to you, the muscle memory went into effect.

Regarding Dulles, I simply find it hard to ignore him. I am simply amazed at a guy who lasted that long in government service (since 1916, for goodness sake). He was a part of the CFR, the power council for a decade. He was in the middle of US foreign relations through two world wars, and into the Cold War. I agree that he probably deferred to the likes of Harriman, McCloy, Rockefeller, and others more senior and powerful. I'd also imagine that a guy like him viewed JFK as an inexperienced upstart.

I have no clue as to whether he lead, followed, inspired, masterminded or executed the plot and murder. Determining his exact role is pure speculation; and, likely indeterminate. But it has his imprimatur all over it (that I'm certain of). Perhaps it was his dedicated followers - the acolytes that worshiped at his intelligence throne (Hunt, Angleton, Harvey, Helms, et al). I do know that whomever orchestrated this hit really knew what they were doing. They were very good and practiced at it. They're smart, and left an impossible trail to follow... very few loose ends. But that is what we're all chasing here, right?

Gene

And before the week is up, we will be at "Ocean's Eleven" ... and I want to be Joey Bishop (a Philly guy)