Gene Kelly

Indeed ... Hill's actions are right in the middle of everything important during that heightened period of 12:30 -1:55pm referred to by the authors. I think Hill was part of the "convoy" that Jim Garrison referred to in his work; the convoy that was escorting Oswald to the theatre, ferrying Lee from the TSBD to the roominghouse and beyond, and planting evidence all along the path from TSBD to Tippit scene to the Texas Theatre. He touched everything associated with the incrimination of Oswald including his arrest and transport to DPD headquarters... everything! What are the chances of that happening in such a high profile and fact-paced crime? If this was a movie, he'd be played by Bruce Willis... and given all of his actions/discoveries, you'd think he would've been singled-out by authorities, including the Warren Commission as a hero.

Westbrook had some unique and temporary group organized within the DPD, of which Hill was affiliated (both had only recently joined the force, or these groups, I believe). I think this reflects a common pattern, part of the standard game plan (CIA, plotters, cut-outs) to infiltrate the police ranks, control the evidence and manage/intimidate the witnesses. Total control of the entire crime scene, with perfect cover and plausible deniability... who would challenge the bona fides of a law enforcement officer under these circumstances?

We see the same modus operandi in RFK's murder at the Ambassador Hotel only 5 years later. In my reading of facts and details surrounding the Tippit murder, specifically the revolver and ballistics, one of the names that surfaced (I believe it was the transport of the revolver records or ballistics) is a fellow named Manuel Pena ... the same name of a notorius LAPD officer (another recent addition to the LAPD just before the murder) who controlled the police investigation and intimidated witnesses after the RFK murder. When I read this name, a warning light went on and my instincts were heightened. Pena was the trusted courier of key evidence being supplied to the FBI ... and he was affiliated with the same mercenaries and cut-outs used by JMWave operatives in various operations -- Saigon, El Salvador, Uraguay, Phoenix -- who were employed by cover with the U.S. Agency for International Development (USAID).

Two mail-order houses were the centerpoints from which Oswald ordered his Smith and Wesson .38 revolver (Seaport Traders of Los Angeles) and his Mannlicher-Carcano rifle (Klein's of Chicago). Oswald ordered his pistol two days before Senator Christopher Dodd's subcommittee began hearings in January 1963. The subcommittee’s statistics later showed a purchase in Texas made from Seaport Traders. One of the groups being investigated for firearm purchases was one that Oswald had in his address book ... the American Nazi Party. An investigator looking into interstate firearms sales at this time was Manuel Pena, the Los Angeles police lieutenant who was later one of the officers investigating Robert Kennedy's assassination. It was Pena who traced Oswald's telescopic sight to a California gun shop. After the assassination, Senator Dodd helped a Senate Internal Security Subcommittee publish a story that Oswald bad been trained at a KGB assassination school in Minsk. At the time, Dodd was on the payroll of the American Security Council, a public group campaigning to use U.S. military force to oust Castro from Cuba and to escalate the war in Vietnam.

According to Shane o'Sullivan's work on the RFK murder, Lt. Manual Pena had been on detached duty with the CIA in Central and South America. Pena has an odd background; he served in the Navy during WWII and in the Army during the Korean War, and was a Counterintelligence officer in France. He spoke French and Spanish, and had connections with various intelligence agencies in several countries. Pena also served the CIA for a long time. In 1967, Pena "retired" from the LAPD, leaving to join AID, a cover for political operations in foreign countries. Roger LeJeunesse, an FBI agent who had been involved in the RFK assassination investigation, told William Turner that Pena had performed special assignments for the CIA for more than ten years. After his retirement from the LAPD (and a public farewell dinner) in November of 1967, Pena inexplicably returned to the LAPD in April 1968... just in time to head the LAPD group called Special Unit Senator that controlled the RFK investigation two months later.

Coincidence? I think not...

Greg:

I will visit your forum, and look forward to interacting with the authors. The Tippit story has become a real centerpiece for me on the entire case. Joe McBride's book was welcome information and opens up this chapter to some healthy re-examination (beyond Dale Meyers), as has been the work Duke Lane has done on this Forum. I'd like to ask you a few points about the Tippit affair, starting with two individuals who greatly peak my suspicion as persons of interest: Sgt. Gerald Hill and Capt. William Westbrook. What is your view of them, and their roles?

Gene

Greg:

Thanks for posting this theory. It is thought-provoking, and comes at the Tippit legend from a different angle. It is this kind of thinking (challenging the long-held facts) that brings the plot into better focus. Earlene Roberts' testimony and deposition is one of the more pivotal (and questionable) pieces of evidence in the entire case... and the way she and her story were handled was very questionable. I used to hold open the idea that Tippit's murder could've been a part of the plan gone bad... but McBride's book and this analysis tells me he was indeed sacrificed and perhaps something else. If in fact he were a Knoll player, what a convenient way to eliminate one of the mechanics. I am reminded of one researcher's comment (can't recall who) that none of the actual shooters would likely be left alive a year later.

As the authors emphasize, the planners had way too much that depended on Oswald being perceived to have picked up a gun and a jacket in his room. They could not leave that to chance, and the vagaries of his post-assassination travels. Oswald at the boarding house had to be a “sure thing”. I concur that they couldn’t rely on Oswald’s actions to promptly play the part; they must have had an imposter to follow a script ... the only way to be sure they could blame Oswald for the crime. Curtain rods and employment at TSBD weren't enough at that point. And I firmly believe (as they state) that nothing happened by accident.

The authors make some very good practical points: something very peculiar was going on when a ticket cashier could call the police at a moment when the phone lines to the Dallas Police must have been overloaded, only to have them send between 20-30 cops to a movie theatre because a suspicious person walked in without paying for a ticket. Chief Curry's thin statements about how the general description leads to an arrest, the implausible timing of it all, the weak sounding TSBD head count, Oswald's arrest ... the authors connect the dots in a convincing way.

When I first jumped into this black hole of disinformation many years ago, I was mainly struck by one implausible fact: Oswald was identified as a suspect very early on - based on a vague description whose provenance was unclear (even today) and a questionable Baker/Truly interaction - and then arrested within 90 minutes. The author's make their case well by challenging the implausible sequence of events, and logically connect Tippit's sacrifice to Oswald's incrimination. Bigger picture, consider the dichodemy: The century's most controversial murder was solved in world record time!

Gene

You're welcome Joe... when I think of all of the hoopla surrounding the 50th anniversary, most of the coverage and offerings were disappointing. Your work on Tippit was a pleasant surprise and a valuable addition to the body of work. So much is written that's tangential, far-fetched, third-hand or biased... yours stands out in contrast. Just based on that notion alone, it rings true.

I personally relate to your interest in Tippit and all that surrounded him...it is indeed a Rosetta Stone in deciphering the information surrounding JFK. It's a shame that his widow couldn't reveal or admit more, but I can empathize with her predicament. Something nonetheless goofy was going on in Oak Cliff -- as one researcher so aptly put it, "a game was afoot and a chess piece was being moved across the board to be sacrificed" -- but only a few were apparently privy to the plot. I remain convinced that Westbrook and Hill have (or had) knowledge and controlled the ground events and evidence. I share your strong suspicion of Olsen and White as having a hand (with Gardner) in the shooting. I also find strong similarities (in the use of police and evidence control) with RFK several years later at the Ambassador Hotel... similar modus operandi and even some of the same players. Why that hasn't moved a groundswell of public opinion and official action will be forever a disappointment and enigma.

I'll check out your synopsis of Meyers on CTKA, although I may have already read it. Meyers offers a comprehensive treatment, albeit biased and selective. I'm respectful of his right to have an opinion but puzzled by his inability (or unwillingness) to see what appears as a compelling set of facts that scream wrongdoing and exonerate Oswald. I have performed many investigations in my profession (not criminal) and one's instincts are to react to the facts, inconsistencies, coincidences and patterns of behavior. Those aspects are what draw me to the Tippit case, and what make me suspect of Meyers' work. What also sets off alarms and red flags is his vehement defense and condemnation of opposite views. I don't want to read too much into that, but its always troubling to me.

Joe:

This talk was an excellent synopsis of a complex topic. I have experienced great difficulty in describing "what happened" to friends and colleagues in this case, especially in a compressed timeframe. I too am drawn to the Tippit murder, and find it to be illuminating as to the larger mysteries surrounding JFK's murder. Your work has advanced the case in many regards, and I appreciate that it was a long journey. I am getting your book, and look forward to reading it. But suffice it to say that all of your insights resonate as valid and compelling to me: the staged aspect of the scene, Ruby's proximity (including his friends), the witness inconsistencies, the counterintuitive logistics of Oswald's path from TSBD to Texas Theatre, the use of DPD accomplices (including White and Olsen's participation), and of course Oswald's central role in the larger plot.

I have many questions that spin off of my own research into Tippit's murder. This has become for me the single most interesting aspect of the entire JFK story. I do think that resolving some lingering questions (if possible, although unlikely) would -- as hopeful researchers state -- blow the lid off of the case. I would like to at times ask your opinion on these threads (after I'm done your book). I'd like to ask three questions now, and would look forward to your reply:

1. Are you finished with this story of Tippit, or do you think there's more fruitful work that can still be done (and you plan some follow-up) ... or do you think that you've taken it as far as one can, at this point? One of the most compelling points of your effort is how you come across, including treatment of 'evidence' and your credentials; at the risk of being solicitous, I find you and your work very credible.
2. Conversely, I am puzzled by the only other serious work on Tippit (by Dale Meyers) which you aptly describe as the 'Warren Report' on Tippit. I am struck by how little we do know about Tippit (including pictures) and how little was devoted to him in the actual Warren investigation or the HSCA for that matter. That said, I also find Meyers (and his work) to be far too assertive as far as demeaning those who would challenge his facts and conclusions. It smacks as an offense (versus defense) and therefore I question his motives. Can you speak to why he takes this adversarial approach and continues to be a vigorous proponent of the traditional Tippit story (which of course falls apart for anyone willing to devote the time)? I understand that it’s tenuous to ascribe motives, but what are we to make of Dale Meyers?
3. DPD's Westbrook and Hill are mighty suspicious characters who show up in all of the critical milestones of Oswald's journey and arrest, as well as the Tippit murder. Their complicity and behaviour stand out prominently to me. I'm curious if you were able to unearth anything about them, and why you wouldn't be more intereted in them as suspects.

Gene Kelly

Robin:

Great post, and fundamentally revealing testimony... Shelley and Lovelady (no Oswald). Intriguing.

Gene

I think Howard's decription fits Angelo somewhat? (Tim Gratz)

Hi Tim,

Richard Case Nagell and Colonel Bishop both described Angel as being 5' 10", 160-165 pounds with a swarthy complexion. I know some won't agree, but I think some serious looking at Victor Espinosa Hernandez as Angel might bear some fruit.

That aside, the Margeson information is fascinating indeed. Makes one kind of curious about 'Slim' and 'Tex'.

James

James,

According to this 1960 CIA "201" document, Victor Espinosa-Hernandez was 5'11" tall and weighed 175 lbs. There's a small photo of his face on the document, too.

I couldn't post the document directly, so go to document #10 on this list. The info I quoted is on page 3.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/docset/getList.do?docSetId=1123

Interesting to note that page 6 says that as of September 30, 1960, CIA's CI/OA (Counterintelligence Operational Approval and Support Division) held a restricted folder on him.

On page 3 it says, in Spanish, that Espinosa-Hernandez "studied at Valley Fort Academy in the United States" and that he had a brother by the name of "Rene."

I couldn't find anything on a "Valley Fort Academy" on the Internet.

I started wondering if it's a "typo" for the Valley Forge Academy in Pennsylvania?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valley_Forge_Military_Academy_and_College

EDIT:

On page 3 of the CIA Spanish-language document it also says that Espinosa-Hernandez's U.S. address in 1960 was "1145 S.W. 23 Ave.". I googled it and came up with that exact address in Miami at the top of the google "hit list," and then discovered that that house is owned by "Alfredo R. Duran."

http://florida-house-values.findthedata.org/l/727126/1145-Sw-23-Ave

The name sounded awfully familiar so I googled it and found that Alfredo Gonzalez Duran, the anti-Castro Cuban (who may have been photographically "captured" in several 11/22/63 Dealey Plaza photos) had two sons, Alfredo R. Duran and Alfredo J. Duran, so now I'm wondering if Alfredo G. Duran (who now lives in Coral Gables, FL) might not have lived at 1145 S.W. 23 Ave., Miami, back in 1960...

Question: Were Alfredo G. Duran and Victor Espinosa Hernandez known to associate with each other back in 1960?

Note: The Wikipedia article says that Alfredo G. Duran studied at the Valley Forge Military Academy. If Victor Espinosa Hernandez studied there, too, as his 1960 FRD application indicates, maybe we can get a good photo of him from the academy's yearbook. (Just a thought.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfredo_Duran

--Tommy

Short Wikipedia article about the Mexico-based FRD:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_Democratic_Revolutionary_Front

PS Colonel William Bishop described "Angel" to Dick Russell as being 5'10", 160 - 165 lbs. It's possible that "Angel" had weighed a few pounds more before Bishop first saw / met him, so Espinosa-Hernandez in the ballpark as far as I'm concerned .

Tommy:

Valley Forge Military Academy is a 2-year college preparatory school located in the suburbs of Philadelphia, near the VF National Cemetary and Park. Its been around since 1928, and is a boarding school for students who need some "discipline" and want to prepare for a career in military, or an appointment to the prime military colleges like West Point and Annapolis.

Gene

Gene, you nailed it when you said Oswald was a firewall. I had been searching for the right way to gedet that idea across. It's more than just the blackmail or the complex legend.

He heightens the compartmentalization that already existed. For example, I don't think John Whitten had any idea that Oswald was being used for a molehunt, even though his subordinate Charlotte Bustos may have had a clue.

Tilton had a propaganda job answering to Seymour Bolten during Harvey's tenure. In 63, Tilton worked with the SAS' Maritime Operations Branch. An anti-FPCC operation was easy for him. Tilton was a tough guy, but why would he want to be involved in an assassination attempt while he's all over the FPCC paperwork? Makes no sense to me.

Anderson is tougher to figure out. He only had the FPCC file between August 1 to Oct 15. He monitored LHO's NO time very closely. On Sept 13, he got the memo from Hosty saying Oswald had an FPCC card and a subscription to the Daily Worker. Two weeks later, the Oswald character is at the Cuban consulate displaying an FPCC card and a CPUSA card. That's more than simple coincidence.

Right after Anderson convinced Gheesling to dim the lights on Oct 9, Anderson got a copy of the Oct 10 memo saying that Oswald called the Soviet consulate on Oct 1. All indications are that was a call by the Oswald impersonator. That would mean that Anderson got wind of the news that someone used the legend to piggy-back on his operation. That would mean that the FBI knew something was wrong. Anderson passed on the FPCC file to another colleague on Oct 15. Anderson may have known that the Oswald character was, but may have known no more than that. Was that a good reason to be complacent and not have Oswald on any kind of security? It doesn't seem like it, even if they trusted Oswald himself.

No evidence that Harvey was physically in MC during this period, but he had access to the Staff D wiretap traffic until at least Oct 11.

His former subordinate Alex MacMillan was running Staff D at this time. A specialist known as "Paul Levister" visited MC between Sept 21-Oct 1 and wrote a fifty page memo about the two wiretap systems in Mexico City. So Harvey had intimate access to many aspects of the MC station.

Your point is well taken that Harvey understood the internal workings of the FBI hierarchy as well as the CIA. Morales brought similar knowledge about the internal workings of the AMOTs and military intelligence.

Bill:

A few things that you've pointed out are striking: "Anderson convinced Gheesling to dim the lights". That's pretty striking right there. Then there's John Whitten, who "didn't had any idea that Oswald was being used for a molehunt". Whitten shows up after the assasination, and if I'm remembering my facts, initially runs the CIA investigation before being replaced by Angleton. I am sensitive to Whitten because my sense is that he testified truthfully plus he died in a nursing home recently not too far from where I live. Then, when I go back and revisit my notes from Armstrong and Newman, this all starts to gel. Mexico City is clearly a key that unlocks doors to the plot and intelligence interests. Its also the centerpiece and rationale for the cover-up and formation of the Warren Commission. Your focus on MC is appropriate. After the big event, there is serious world-class CYA going on inside both FBI and CIA... and we can just visualize Harvey and certain JMWave principals sitting back and enjoying the blowback. To quote an old saw: they had the means, motive and opportunity.

Gene

David - I am not a serious researcher, just a citizen with a 50 year interest in JFK. I have read dozens of the best books, and will always feel the tragic loss Americans suffered during the 1960's. I have read about a third of Harvey and Lee. The trouble I have with the theory, and with some of your earnest threads on the subject, is that I simply can't piece together the information presented. I suspect the problem is more one of style than substance. I have an open mind and would really like to understand and be able to follow this deep cover operation if it is real. You have such intimate knowledge of this that you use a lot of shorthand when you write about it, and the author of the book is all over the map in his organization of the information. I'd like to be able to read something I can more easily comprehend before I form any conclusions. What would you suggest? I wonder if anyone else reading this agrees with me.

Paul:

I have had the same problem getting through the information... perhaps lack of patience, or the original organization of the facts. However, while not sounding very scientific, I nonetheless believe in the two-Oswald theory. I can't explain why, other than it just seems to fit with not only the evidence at hand, but what I perceive as the expertise of the people behind the plot. There are probably terms to describe this, but it resonates for me. There is this complex construct (called Oswald) who is military/Marines, defects/returns, and is used as a 'double-dangle' in God knows what spy games. A strategy and gambit right up James Angleton's alley... and for this reason, I have trouble separating (or absolving) Angleton from the plot to kill JFK. David's matrixed spreadsheet shoulds like a logical way to deconstruct what John Armstrong has assembled.

The hard part for me is separating the 'good' Harvey from the 'evil' Lee... did they know each other, was Lee setting up Harvey (unbeknownst to him), and what happened to Lee? I'd be interested in what all here think of the anecdote in James Douglas' book of Lee travelling on a CIA flight the afternoon of the assassination, as told by an Air Force officer (Robert Vinson).

Gene

Gene,

Tilton and Anderson are really interesting. I'm not convinced that they had knowledge of any plan to kill the President.

I think the plans were very tightly held by the group that impersonated Oswald. Everyone else at the CIA, from Angleton to Phillips to Goodpasture, was just trying to figure out who impersonated Oswald and Duran.

The FBI didn't know about the impersonation until the Dallas agents heard the tape after the assassination.

Bill

Bill:

I'd be interested to know more about John Tilton and Charles Anderson. Both were members of Harvey's SAS. I've often felt that Harvey (his motives, affiliations and "distancing" in Rome) makes for quite a motivated plotter. I like the focus on Mexico City (MC) as an 'epicenter' of sorts... although other authors have pointed to the Atwood back-channel event as a precipitating event, springing the plotters into actual action. That's why I think its occurrence in the midst of these MC impersonation scenes is telling. Orchestrated visits to the Cuban consulate and Soviet embassy are major ground shocks ... it's seems clear these drove the coverup (i.e. reluctance to investigate more effectively) after the assassination. The other milestone that helps tie together this complex story for me is taking Oswald off of the FBI watchlist on October 9th... what John Newman termed "dimming the switch".

A tightly compartmentalized plot -- which is logical (for such an extreme executive action) and fits with tradecraft -- seems to be setting up insurance against mainstream CIA (whatever that it) and FBI, ensuring they'll not divulge (or seriously investigate) the overt/official manipulations and use of Oswald after the big event. Whoever set that up and orchestrated it knew the interworkings of CIA and FBI intimately; that's why I'm so drawn to Harvey. Do you have any evidence that Harvey visited MC during this period? I know he had been banished to Paris, but presume he could travel with impunity.

Your work allows me to view Oswald as a lot more than just a convenient Marxist patsy; he's involved in something (at a superficial level), plus he's integrally connected to the FBI and CIA in ways that cannot be allowed to surface later for many reasons. Oswald is not simply a patsy (or a two different people diversion); he's a buffer or firewall, that will not only prevent the agencies best equipped to find out what really happened, but whose bona fides and cover are buried (by experts) within the most deceptive and complex personnel file one could ever hope to have as a cover. Oswald becomes a perfect patsy before, during and after... guaranteed to last for a long time.

Gene

... my speculation is that Oswald was mulled over by the planners after hosty wrote his sept 10 memo saying that lho was active with the FPCC and was seeking CPUSA membership. Within days Tilton and Anderson set up their anti FPCC operation. A day later Oswald obtained a Mexican visa. On the 25th Harvey's buddy Will Potocki got a copy of the Hosty memo. On the 27th Oswald showed the Cubans his FPCC and CPUSA cards. I think that and the soviet visit the next morning closed out the Tilton/Anderson operation. I am agnostic about whether this person was oswald. I don't think it matters much. I do believe that Oswald was impersonated in the calls of sept 28 and oct 1. I think that was tied to the plans to kill JFK as one of several options. I think the plans included attempts in Chicago and Tampa and Miami but don't have an opinion on the amount of lead time for those.

Bill:

I too am enjoying your book, and it provides excellent perspective on the intelligence games afoot, as well as the players involved. I think it's very telling that the Lechuga-Atwood back channel discussion on Castro-JFK rapprochement occurs on 9/23, in the midst of all these machinations... mystery man at the consulate, molehunt aimed at JMWave, Duran/Oswald phone calls. So many operations being conducted at multiple levels tend to make one dizzy. The 9/23 back channel talk seems the precipitating event for all that follows, and the time at which when Oswald is earmarked as a patsy by the planners. Tilton and Anderson are names that I never considered... I wonder whether they had knowledge of the plot? Given all of the agencies involved and complex interests at play, it makes me believe that someone (CIA, FBI, MI6, even KGB) would have got wind of the plot and responsibly tried to thwart it. Similar to the Russell/Nagel story. Its hard for me to belive that everyone is a bad guy in this story.

Gene

PS A couple of friendly suggestions:

Try "proofreading" your posts before and after you post them.

For example, "How can possible (sic) know..."

PPS, I never said anything negative about your "spelling." In fact, your spelling is exemplary.

Whatever you say Tommy.... "NEVER !!"

The first quote was your FIRST attempt at telling me how I should post... after I told Gene my reply was aimed at your "WHY oh WHY" mind-reading questions...

I wrote:

Completely Agree Gene... I was directing my comments mostly to Tommy who likes to ask WHY questions that appear to me as rhetorical where only speculative answers are possible....

No wonder you can't follow my content... you can't even remember or follow your own......

Make up your mind already Tommy - you DON'T READ my posts, yet you do and apparently with a fine tooth comb hoping to find spelling, syntax and grammatical mistakes instead of attempting to understand the CONTENT..

and then you emphatically tell me you NEVER posted something ABOUT MY POSTS when just scrolling up the page proves you wrong...

Take a breath already, regroup and take a long look at what YOU DO, what YOU POST, instead of playing the forum's post nazi...

and please, Pu-LEASE don't suffer my posts any longer...

All you need to is NOT read them as you say you already don't... and move on...

======

You have been wrong about this at every single turn... WRONG to tell me how to post, WRONG about the CONTENT you post and edit and repost and edit, ad infinitum

and WRONG about what you claim you don't read....

Maybe go try a different thread and bother someone else about how they post... I remember my friend Bernice here used to use CAPS in her posts from time to time... SO WHAT!... her content was/is always interesting and contributory to the topic... your priorities are WHACK "Bro".... time to get a grip.

====================================================================================

Gene and everyone... I've tried to stay on topic and repeatedly asked Tommy here to stay on track and comment on the questions being asked...

That does not appear possible...

I don't know who PM is yet... and I agree Gene, that Shelley at the very least is aware of TSBD activity and backstories not readily apparent to others.

Gene, Do you think SUIT&TIEman is Shelley?

and do you think we should see WESLEY in Altgens or any other view of the doorway?

Thanks

DJ

Gene,

Thanks for interjecting a voice of reason.

You do understand that Shelley and Arce didn't walk to the railway yard, don't you, but that Shelley and Lovelady did, right? And that Bonnie Ray Williams accompanied Shelley and Arce to the police station in the police car, some seven blocks away?

--Tommy

Thomas:

I understand that Shelley and Lovelady were photographed walking down the sidewalk of the Elm Street extension towards the railway yard / parking lot right after the assassination... and right about the same time that Prayer Man and Frazier were "captured" on film. I was not paying much attention to who had accompanied Shelley, hence I incorrectly stated it was Arce. I stand corrected. My focus and interest has been primarily on Shelley, and his quick visit to the railyards. The photograph was blown up a bit, and the two figures appear to be them, although as I recall they have their backs to the camera and are small figures in the background (or distance) of the photograph. Nonetheless, it appears to be him.

Gene

Gene, I think you will find that Oswald worked as an "order filler" pulling books. My recollection of hos work clipboard is that he was supposed to be working at pulling books to fill shipments on Nov. 22. That would be a job that would take him across all the upper floors where the books were stacked on a regular basis. I'd also assume it would take him down to shipping after he had done his pulls. Actually that would probably be a more "flexible" job than working on the flooring as he would be moving around and up and down routinely rather than being stuck in one area working on the floor.

As to the watches, I'm right handed but always wore my watch on the "wrong" hand - after being clumsy enough to break a couple of glass watch crystals...

-- Larry

Larry:

I know Oswald wasn't at TSBD very long, but I wonder if Shelley ever did any performance appraisals of his subordinate? FWIW, I felt the same way when David posed the watch question... I'm right-handed but usually wear the watch on my right wrist. Its more to do with dressing in the morning than function... but I sometimes switch it later in the day, if the strap is too tight or my hand is tired from keyboarding/writing. Good observation of PM though, and interesting question. I'm showing my ignorance of the case, but was Oswald right-handed?

Gene

Gene

Sorry if I set you guys off... not my intent. Also, I'm just honestly sharing my thoughts about Mr. Shelley. Unfortunately, most everything involves speculation in this case, so I'm reacting to what I see in a photo. We sometimes have strong impressions solely based on a facial expression or body language ... just the way someone "looks" without knowing anything factual. That's how Shelley lands on me. His later interview has some interesting implications, and raises my interest accordingly. His quick walk to the railroad yards (with Lovelady) has the same effect. I'd prefer we not hone-in on my use of the word "escape" (poor choice on my part). I'm simply offering that - if Shelley and/or his colleagues are guilty of collaboration of some sorts - what better way to leave the premises than under a police accompaniment (softer choice of words there). However, in the spirit of this excellent thread, the identity of PM (and what Oswald was doing inside and outside of TSBD, before/during/after) somehow involves Shelley, Lovelady and Arce.

G. Kelly

David:

I agree this is all simply speculation... and for me, the imagination does take over. I'm simply saying that Shelley is a person of interest. He seems inconsistent, suspicious, and turns up in some interesting stories and places in the critical hour or so after the shooting. That's as far as I can take it... unless others can add more about him. Regarding the Glaze interview and the alleged statements that Shelley later made, I'm going on the previous work by Weston.

As far as watches and left vs. right, I've seen and heard that comment before (i.e. one wears his watch on the opposite wrist) but not sure that I'd agree with it. It is a generalization... I know right-handed people who wear their watch on the right wrist (e.g. pencil-pushers like me). This came up recently in discussions I've had (unrelated to JFK) and there was not a consensus on this practice. However, if you are a worker who performs manual labor (e.g. carpenters or painters), they either take the watch off completely, or do wear it on the opposite wrist. So, it's not a bad assumption to make that PM is a southpaw.

This begs the question of what specifically did Oswald do for those 3 weeks prior at TSBD? Did he lift boxes, move books or was he part of the plywood floor project? He worked in the "Miscellaneous Dept." ... doing what?

Gene

Tommy:

Good challenge, and all good points... now my brain hurts. Thinking less 'conspiratorially', several of those guys don't look the part (e.g. BRW, Lovelady) but others - Shelley, Arce - bear some more scrutiny. And I don't think any of them are shooters or plotters... if anything, they were used inside the TSBD to plant evidence, perhaps construct a stage effect sniper's nest, allow others to get down the stairs/elevators and out the back door, etc. Call-in to their control on where the patsy was, and where he was headed. They all knew Oswald in some fashion (albeit for a month or so). Perhaps they were the "convoy" (using a Garrison term) to get the patsy to the next destination.

I do think Shelley's story and testimony are inconsistent, and his quick dash over to the rail yards is interesting. Why did police take them down for "questioning" (as opposed to others)? Did they look or act suspicious? Not everybody got a ride downtown that day, but these guys did. Perhaps a reason to take them downtown (away from the scene) is to control their statements and the story line... all a part of the grand control of evidence and "witnesses". Admittedly, my scenario for this would also require that the escorts (i.e. DPD) were also co-opted or bad guys. Do you not think that in some crime scenes, the perpetrator stays at the scene, and acts as a witness?

Let me try Reductio ad absurdum (arguing the opposite to prove a point): if you for example buy into the posit that Oswald is Prayer Man -- and that he was actually in that alcove/on the steps -- then why do Lovelady and Shelley not acknowledge his presence? We can't have it both ways, if the central question of this thread (PM) is true.

Gene

No, Gene.

That's not "The Escape" (which Bill Kelley wasn't asking about anyway).

They were being taken in for questioning.

Shelley, Arce, and Williams were taken away for questioning several minutes after the assassination. As were other witnesses that afternoon. Some people were escorted on foot and some people were transported by motor vehicle. Amos Euins was lucky enough to get a ride on the back of a three wheeled motorcycle.

These three (Shelley, Arce, and Bonnie Ray Williams) travelled by police car.

--Tommy

Shelley is implicated by many contradictory encounters. Guarding an elevator, making a phone call, being observed as unusually "calm", talking with Oswald, searching the top floors, and of course being on those front steps. Pictures later show he and Lovelady quickly leaving the TSBD towards the railroad yards, only to later return to the building (5-10 minurtes later)... why would they be drawn to that location almost immediately? As highlighted by other posters, Shelley gave two versions of what he did after the shots were fired:

Story #1: 11/22/63 DPD Statement: Ran across the street; talked to Gloria Calvery; went back into the TSBD; called my wife; went to guard the back elevator; went upstairs with the Police to search.

Story #2: WC testimony 4/7/64: Truly and an officer (Baker) went into the TSBD “3 or 4 minutes" after Shelley had talked to Calvery. He then walked fast down to the railroad yards accompanied by Lovelady, stayed for about a minute and a half, and walked slowly back to the TSBD. Giving conflicting accounts of such an important period of time after the assassination raises suspicion. Here are some more quotes (taken from previous threads:

I was standing on the front steps at 411 Elm watching the President in the parade. The President's car was about half way from Houston Street to the Triple Underpass when I heard what sounded like three shots. I couldn't tell where they were coming from. I ran across the street to the corner of the park and ran into a girl crying and she said the President had been shot. This girl's name is Gloria Calvery who is an employee of this same building. I went back into the building and went inside and called my wife and told her what happened. I was on the first floor then and I stayed at the elevator and was told not to let anyone out of the elevator. I left the elevator and went with the police on up to the other floors

Immediately following the shooting, Billy N. Lovelady and I accompanied some uniformed police officers to the railroad yards just west of the building and returned through the east side door of the building about ten minutes later. I remained in the building until about 1:30 PM when I was asked to go to the Dallas Police Dept. to furnish an affidavit. I returned to the [TSBD] Building about 5 PM. I did not leave the building until about 7 PM that day.

I realize that Shelley "appears" to have been taken in for questoning by DPD. Statements by Officers Brown and Senkel (accompanied by a uniformed policeman) said they "brought" the employees to the Homicide office. Shelley, Lovelady, Daugherty, Williams and Arce all apparently arrived around the same time at the DPD homicide office. To me, it looks more like a protective detail to remove him (and the other workers) from the scene. So in my opinion, he has a police escort as opposed to being a suspect or key witness. By some accounts, the Dallas police had cause to actually arrest Shelley ... according to journalist Elzie Glaze, Shelley had confided to him in 1975 that the DPD had formally charged him with the President's murder. Although Shelley arrived at DPD offices about 1:30pm, he was not allowed to leave until 5pm (as documented in WC records) but not before submitting a second affidavit. He also allegedly told a story about being CIA, which seems far-fetched. His Warren Commission testimony takes the reader in a different direction:

Mr. BALL - Now, did the police come into the building?

Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, sir; they started coming in pretty fast.

Mr. BALL - Did you go with them any place?

Mr. SHELLEY - Yes; Mr. Truly left me guarding the elevator, not to let anybody up and down the elevator or stairway and some plainclothesmen came in; I don't know whether they were Secret Service or FBI or what but they wanted me to take them upstairs, so we went up and started searching the various floors.

Mr. BALL - Did you go up on the sixth floor?

Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, sir.

There were six TSBD employees assigned to lay new flooring on the fifth and sixth floors from late October until November 22... thery were under the supervision of Shelley and Truly who were described as building managers working for the landlord. They all look mightly suspicious to me, especially Bill Shelley.

Tommy (and all):

I'd then focus my energy and interest on those three persons ,,,, they affected the "Great Escape" with all due respect to Steve McQueen and James Garner. Are there transcripts of their questioning? We don'thave much documentation of Oswald's brief incarceration... I doubt DPD accuratelty captured what these three had to say (if anything). The less documented, the more I'd tend to suspect. I believe its no coincidence that Shelley, Arce and Williams were spirited out of the TSBD and into relative anominity (if I got that word correctly) for 50 years. Exit stage left. No doubt they're all dead now.

PS. love Peter Gabriel and his music.

Yes, Gene

You did see a photo of Danny Arce being led to a police car by a shotgun wielding policeman and a motorcycle cop. Bill Shelley and Bonnie Ray Williams were with him, as were two detectives tentatively identified as Senkel and Brown.

Billy Lovelady was not with them.

The two detectives (Senkel and Brown?) sat upfront in the police car with the policeman driver, and Bonnie Ray Williams, Danny Arce, and Bill Shelley sat in the back seat. Shelley sat behind the driver.

Billy Lovelady was not with them, although he had walked with Bill Shelley from the TSBD to the railway yard / parking lot (and back to the TSBD) right after the assassination.

--Tommy

Tommy:

Call me crazy, but that is the "escape" that Bill Kelly (no relation, although we hail from the same area) challenged us to describe, along with the "who" (if not Oswald). I'm coming late into the Lovelady/Shelley sweepstakes, but it must be limited to a finite number of people, no? It can't be Al Gore or Forrest Gump (nor Kevin Bacon)... my money's on Shelley. What a great way to leave the TSBD premises. These fellows were in protective custody, literally and figuratively. I'd love to know what transpired with their lives (Arce, Shelly, Truely) in the next five years... healthy and prosperous?

Gene

Tommy:

You thicken the plot. I'll have to go back to some pictures i saw last week, pictures that I thought had Arce being sheparded into a DPD car. It may have been with Lovelady, but I recall Shelley being in the same frame. Then when I viewed the cropped frame that david provided a few days ago, with Shelley in the forefront and several serious looking DPD officers surrounding him (motorcycle helmet, shotgun), it struck me as an armed guard escort as opposed to bringing in a key witness for questioning. The manager of the Miscellaneous Department (ostensibly Oswald's supervisor) has a serious 'employee issue' on his hands, at this point. I was also struck by a comment made from another thread (need to go back and find the source) about these gentlemen walking towards the railway yard ... arguably one of the best escape routes for conspirators.

My intent in raising all of this is to respond to earlier challenges about who else might've taken a shot, and how they got out of the building. Although nothing's as it seems in this case, Lovelady appears innocent and believable. But Arce (recent temporary assignee to repair a plywood floor) and Shelley are suspicious (imho) and they conveniently left the building with an armed escort... pretty good way to escape. And not the way that Lee or Harvey left, for sure.

Gene

Lloyd Viles, Sarah Stanton, Wesley Frazier and Billy Lovelady joined us shortly afterwards...

David;

Seems that Shelley has given us the short list for other Prayer Man candidates. Inreresting that there's no mention of Oswald. Call me crazy, but the picture of Shelley in a suit beling escorted out by some menacing looking cops, is pretty creepy. Just the look on his face (and the cops) tells me something is not right. Its more than just, the Presdient has been shot... its more like, lets get out of here. I know its not very scientific, but he looks evil and guilty... everytime I've ever seeen his picture, it has the same effect. Why is he in a suit and tie? And he certainly didn't waste any time leaving the premises... and seen walking with Arce toward the railroad yard. How is it that he and Arce are singled out to be "escorted" out of the TSBD by DPD? He's wisked off for questioning... or is he an accomplice being protectively removed from the scene? Shelley has become a person of interest for me.

Gene

One thing, that David has emphasized previously, really helps me to look at all of this differently. It's to think in terms of two Oswalds... Harvey and Lee. Once you get past the "I believe" button on that fact, it opens up a new pattern of analysis. In similar fashion, I distrust the provenance of much of the evidence. And the TSBD has become a diversionary place in my mind... not a tactical location to kill the President with a skilled sniper.

I now view TSBD as a place where both individuals are present; a patsy and an impersonator. Maybe they both know of each other, maybe not. Maybe Lee knows of Harvey but not vice versa. Each has a different role while in the TSBD. Each has to 'escape' by some means. We speculate that Lee is at the Tippit scene, incriminating Harvey. All we know for sure (or rather with some measure of certainty) is that they end up together again at the Texas Theatre. Another amazing story relayed in Douglas' "JFK and the Unspeakable") is that possibly Lee is last seen on a CIA flight out of Dallas to a secret government site. I wonder what ever happened to him?

So, were they working together? Our paradigm is that Lee is setting Harvey up (unbeknownst to Harvey) ... but that might not be fully accurate. It all begs the question of how innocent we think Harvey really is, and what he was really up to before he got caught. One thing for sure is, he is trying to get away from something or somebody, and ends up in a pre-arranged meeting place where the entire DPD converges upon him. He was running away from something, and hoping for a contact with someone helpful.

But, getting back to the thread, the man in the doorway sure seems to be Harvey ... I wonder why he went back into the building?

Tony and David:

Bringing us back to this thread, if we belive there's some likelihood that 'Prayer Man' is indeed Lee (or Harvey) Oswald, its baffling what happened next. Looks like eyewitness accounts put this person going back into the TSBD (after the shooting becomes evident) which seems counterintuitive. None of this makes sense anymore, and we're left to speculate. Prayer Man's shirt and appearance certainly look like the Oswald who's later arrested. Lee is escorted out the back of the Texas Theatre never to be seen again (except by Mathers and an officer on a CIA flight to Area 51). I do agree that - in the chaos and movement following the shooting - anyone could've left the TSBD. Pictures (and Craig's observation) give us an "Oswald look-alike" leaving in a Rambler. I personally don't belive in any of Oswald's recorded escape routes... buses, taxis, walking quickly or redbird flights. Its all slight of hand by magicians prompting us to focus on the wrong stuff.

Gene