Gene Kelly

14 hours ago, Paul Brancato said:

Gene - I just read up a little on Judge Thornberry. Is there evidence that he left the House specifically for the Nagell trial? Also, calling the Judge a friend of LBJ is almost an understatement, since LBJ later nominated him to associate Justice of the Supreme Court, a nomination he withdrew when Abe Fortas, whose position Thornberry was nominated to fill, ran into Congressional opposition when LBJ tried to promote him from associate Justice to the Supreme Court. And it also turns out that Thornberry won LBJ’s congressional seat when LBJ became a Senator. What any of this has to do with Nagell I don’t know, but it’s peculiar. 

Paul

Thornberry became a protege of Sam Rayburn. In 1963, LBJ persuaded Kennedy to appoint Homer to the United States District Court for the Western District of Texas.  This trusted friend stayed at LBJ’s side during the hours after Kennedy’s assassination (according to his biography). In 1965, Johnson named him to the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals, where he advanced the cause of civil rights. When LBJ nominated Abe Fortas in 1968 to replace Earl Warren as chief justice of the U.S. Supreme Court, he put forward Thornberry for Fortas’ seat, but Fortas withdrew from consideration so Thornberry remained on the Court of Appeals until his death in 1995.  Attached is a 1965 photo of Thornberry sworn in as Judge at the LBJ Ranch in Texas.

Gene

9 hours ago, Paul Brancato said:

Gene - I just read up a little on Judge Thornberry. Is there evidence that he left the House specifically for the Nagell trial? Also, calling the Judge a friend of LBJ is almost an understatement, since LBJ later nominated him to associate Justice of the Supreme Court, a nomination he withdrew when Abe Fortas, whose position Thornberry was nominated to fill, ran into Congressional opposition when LBJ tried to promote him from associate Justice to the Supreme Court. And it also turns out that Thornberry won LBJ’s congressional seat when LBJ became a Senator. What any of this has to do with Nagell I don’t know, but it’s peculiar. 

Paul:

Nagell's claims regarding the assassination boil down to observing Cuban exiles representing themselves as Castro agents meeting with Oswald to manipulate him and maneuver him into some action in Washington DC - Baltimore area in September.  All that he ever alleged was that Oswald was part of a conspiracy to murder Kennedy (not necessarily the assassin) which he thought would take place in late September of 1963.  Jim DiEugenio's Kennedys and King article speculates that this is why Nagell acted out in El Paso on September 20th. 

This is where the plot thickened ... as I understand the story (reading Russell's work), Nagell was working counterintelligence for CIA by 1962 - as part of the Domestic Operations Branch - when he got wind of the plot. He was communicating through a Mexico City contact up to Tracy Barnes. While in Mexico, his CIA contact stopped meeting meet him; his only communication about the plot was now with the KGB, who allegedly told him to try and separate Oswald from the conspirators by telling him he was being duped (or eliminate him).  By then Russell and others believe that the CIA was freezing Nagell out (he got no reply from an attempted communication with Desmond Fitzgerald). Russell speculates that Nagell had been duped into thinking that he was working on this mission for both sides.

When he appeared before the court on November 4, 1963, Nagell told the judge, "I had a motive for doing what I did. But my motive was not to hold up the bank. I do not intend to disclose my motive at this time." Author Dick Russell went to El Paso in 1975 and discovered that - even though two FBI agents were in on his arrest, and the Bureau confiscated his belongings - no FBI representative testified at his trial. Yet in a newspaper story of 1/24/64, Nagell revealed that the FBI had asked him about Oswald's activities. Nagell was sent to Springfield prison and was part of their behavior modification program (as was Secret Service agent Abraham Bolden). Nagell's sister's widower later told Dick Russell that Nagell's mission was to eliminate Oswald before the assassination. He also told Russell that the FBI visited them in 1965 to see some of the papers Nagell had sent to them; while they were on vacation, someone later broke into their home and stole the documents.

To address your question about Homer Thornberry, the first judge at Nagell's trial retired before the trial began. He was replaced by Thornberry, on a recommendation by then Texas attorney Leon Jaworski. After his conviction and sentencing, Nagell was dragged from the courtroom screaming that "the FBI had allowed Kennedy to be shot" and that they had questioned him about Oswald before the murder. While in jail, he was warned not to talk about Oswald and later transferred to Leavenworth where he was allegedly tortured (and during trips back to El Paso for appeal hearings, beaten up). Nagell's 1967 prison letter to Arthur Greenstein (aka "Arturo Verdestein") characterized Oswald as a patsy and an apparent pawn of David Ferrie. 

To gain his release from prison, Nagell's attorney, Joseph Calamia, got his client to cooperate with the government in a psychological ruse. According to Jim DiEugenio, Thornberry and the FBI apparently brokered a deal with the defendant: a chance to go free if you go along with our discreditation of you as a witness. Urged on by Calamia, Nagell went along with this ploy, but reluctantly. Eventually this is how Nagell was finally released. DiEugenio writes that "Calamia made a deal with the devil to get his client out of jail" ... Nagell got out in April of 1968. 

Gene

On 1/14/2023 at 3:41 PM, Matt Allison said:

Yes, this conversation doesn't sound real to me. Police officers aren't inclined to have casual conversations with inmates inside a courtroom. Or, frankly, to give a damn about what comes out of an alleged bank robber's mouth.

Matt

I don't think Russell would misrepresent Bundren's comments, and he told him quite a few things.  Hard to imagine that Russell would've related it, if he didn't think Bundren was credible.  Here is what Russell wrote:

When Kennedy was assassinated, the full impact of Nagell's prediction did not hit Bundren … but when Jack Ruby shot Oswald, it did. Bundren exclaimed to himself, "How the hell would he have previous knowledge of it? How would he know what was coming down in Dallas?"  When Bundren went to the FBI to try and talk about Nagell's stunning prognostication, the agent he knew there told him he was not at liberty to discuss it. Bundren concluded from the experience that "Nagell know a lot more about the assassination then he let on, or that the government let on. It bothered me ever since." Indicating Bundren was right about what the government knew, Russell notes at this point that one of the notebooks seized from Nagell that day was not returned to him for eleven years. The other notebook was not returned at all. 

Nagell ended up serving more than four years in federal prisons, after two trials presided over by Judge Homer Thornberry, a friend of LBJ, who resigned a congressional seat to take over the Nagell case in 1964. Following Nagell’s release from Leavenworth in April 1968, he obtained a passport, quickly left the country, and traveled to East Germany.  That's quite a long incarceration for Nagel's "crime" in that El Paso bank.

Gene

On 1/12/2023 at 10:44 PM, Matt Allison said:

I bought TMWKTM back when it was first published, and read it countless times.

I never believed Bundren's statement referenced here. Not then, not now.

It sounded overly dramatic, not real, and it didn't make sense with the chronology. To me, it sounded like yet another of the Texas tall tales that various people have verbalized over the years that have done nothing but make JFKA research look foolish. Madeline Brown, Beverly Oliver, etc

Matt

According to Dick Rusell's book, "On the Trail of the JFK Assassins", Nagell first went to a nearby post office before entering the bank, where he mailed five-hundred-dollar bills to an address in Mexico. He then mailed two letters to the CIA (one was apparently addressed to Desmond Fitzgerald). From the post office, Nagell walked over to the State National Bank where he approached a teller and asked for a hundred dollars in American Express traveler's checks. But before Nagell could retrieve the checks, he turned and fired two shots into a wall right under the ceiling.

An interesting read is "Evidence and the Big Easy III", Carmine Savastano's TPAKK blog, dated January 09, 2019.  Carmine cites an El Paso Police Department Supplementary Offense Report ("Attempted Robbery of State National Bank", Ref: Richard Case Nagell, September 21, 1963).  Based on evidence from the El Paso police, Nagell did not fire shots, walk to his car, and calmly await the police ... he tried to escape and surrendered a distance from the bank. Unknown to many was the presence of police officer J. Bundren assigned to guard a Treasury Department currency display in the west lobby, which Carmine surmises might have been what attracted Nagell. Following the sound of shots in the east lobby, the officer rushed to the area where he learned Nagell had fled running out the side door.  The police officer "ran out the door of the bank chasing the subject to the corner of Oregon and Overland and then west on Overland" and Nagell's trail led to a local alleyway where he emerged in a vehicle but now faced the pursuing officer pointing a gun at him and stated "All-right, I give up".  After some questioning Nagell was taken into custody, and his vehicle was impounded.

When Bundren searched Nagell, one thing found on him was a mimeographed newsletter from the Fair Play for Cuba Committee. When Bundren notified the FBI, Nagell asked them to get the machine gun out of the trunk of his car (but there was no machine gun).  However, there was a suitcase, two briefcases filled with documents, two tourist cards for entry into Mexico (one in the name of Aleksei Hidel), a small Minolta camera, and a miniature film development lab. And according to Russell, on the way to the El Paso Federal Building, Nagell issued a statement to the FBI: "I would rather be arrested than commit murder and treason."  According to Jim DiEugenio's article in Kennedys and King ("The Most Important Witness, Part 2", June 2009), Officer Bundren later told Dick Russell that, at a preliminary hearing for Nagell, the defendant shared that he wanted to be caught. To which Bundren replied that he knew Nagell was not out to rob the bank, and following statements were made:

Nagell: Well, I'm glad you caught me. I really don't want to be in Dallas.  Bundren: What do you mean by that?  Nagell: You'll see soon enough. 

When Bundren later went to the FBI to try and talk about Nagell's prediction, the agent he (Bundren) knew there told him he was not at liberty to discuss it.  I doubt that Bundren would misrepresent all of this to Dick Russell years later ... there seems no reason for that.

Gene

23 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

But Gene---Nagell's explanation for shooting up a bank is totally nutty. In fact, in prison, lacking any food or water other than that served by authorities, how safe is anybody? Jack Ruby comes to mind. 

In addition, surely in prison there are people who could be induced to put a shiv in any particular prisoner. 

On the other hand, back in 1963 anyone could enter Mexico, and stay at a low-cost villa 50 miles south of Ensenada. 

Nagell appears to have been deeply troubled. 

A thought occurs to me...intel agencies might actually prefer to use mentally troubled individuals for certain assignments. Then later, even if the "crazy" person tells the truth in court, they are easily discredited by all the other nutty commentary they make. 

The CIA may have actually dangled Nagell in front of Garrison. But Garrison did not bite. 

Just a thought. 

 

Ben

What comes to mind for me about the bank robbery is, it's an FBI matter (not just local police) ... Nagell wanted to get the FBI's attention (imho).  Plus, I think that the "Cubans" were onto him ... the violent anti-Castro crowd that were cultivating Oswald and had operational roles in Dealey Plaza.  He sought federal protection, from both the KGB and CIA (i.e., any port in a storm).  Just my two cents.  

Gene

A January 2018 article in Who/What/Why by Dick Russell, "How to Get the CIA’s Attention: Threaten a JFK Assassination Reveal" has some interesting points about why Nagell never testified at the Shaw trial for Garrison. His outreach to Garrison was aborted because Nagell suspected that Garrison's investigation had been penetrated by the CIA (which was true) and anything he said would be compromised: 

On April 3, 1968, while Nagell was in Leavenworth Penitentiary serving a ten-year sentence for “attempted bank robbery,” the US Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit handed down a decision that “the evidence introduced by the Government is not sufficient to maintain [Nagell’s] conviction. Upon his release, Nagell flew to New York and met twice with Jim Garrison in Central Park. [Garrison verified the get-togethers in interviews with Russell]. Issued a new passport, Nagell soon flew to Zurich, Switzerland. According to an earlier released 1969 Secret Service report, Nagell stated that the Garrison trial [of Clay Shaw] was getting ready to open in New Orleans and that ‘certain interests’ wanted him out of the country so that he could not be subpoenaed to appear.” A CIA cable describes what happened when, in early June 1968: Nagell walked into the American consulate in Zurich, met with a “political officer” and announced he’d been interviewed by Garrison “in connection ‘CIA and Pres Kennedy assassination.’” It goes on to say “Subj[ect] claims Garrison told him he in danger being killed. Therefore wants ‘inform CIA he in Zurich.’”

Russell points out in the 2018 article that individuals long involved in the CIA’s Oswald paper trail - including Jane Roman, Bruce Solie, and David Murphy - overlapped with that of the Nagell saga ... at a minimum, the Agency wanted to keep up with where he was and what he might be saying to whom.  Larry Hancock's blog lends credence to the Nagell story, and explains why he (Nagell) left New Orleans and ended up in an El Paso bank:

Nagell gives us word of a potential action involving the East Coast, but then relates that his own visibility to the Cubans forced him to flee New Orleans pursued by the Cubans. In order to escape their attention, he was decided to commit a fake bank robbery in El Paso, Texas. In doing so he was arrested and remained in jail beginning in September and through November 22.  That provided protection from the people who had been pursing him. 

Richard Sprague wrote that Dick Russell had obtained an agreement from Nagell to meet with the HSCA, but no contact had been made up to April 1978. Nagell was apparently hiding in fear of his children's lives (not so much his own life). Russell was the only person who knew where Nagell was, and a recommendation was given to Chairman Stokes that the committee contact Nagell through Russell. Stokes referred the Nagell matter to Robert Blakey for follow-up, but Blakey never mentioned it by telephone or by letter.  By September 1978, when the public hearings had begun, there was no indication that Blakey was going to call Nagell, who was standing by but had not been contacted.

Gene

Ron/Ben/David:

Kris Milligan, publisher of the Oregon-based Trinday books, did do most of the talking in the Podcast.  When he started to expound upon JVB, it turned me off.   Nagell is a tough nut to crack ... lots of tantalizing stories and connections, some of which are difficult to ignore.  Surely the policeman who arrested him in El Paso can attest to what Nagell said about what was coming in Dallas ... that part seems to be corroborated and hard to ignore.  Then he is incarcerated for several years - taken out of the picture (like Abraham Bolden) - and reappears to convince Garrison of his bona fides.  While Nagell is eccentric and an enigma, it does seem that he played games with the story up until his death.  Tapes and documents that are allegedly stolen, but never show up or become revealed ... letters purportedly sent to Congressmen, FBI and others, but undated and no longer available.  Just quite sure what to think about him ... and what was he doing a year earlier (in 1962) with Oswald in Mexico?  However, he has all of these interesting artifacts of Oswald's, and he does single-out Carlos Quiroga and another Cuban as his companions that summer. 

Gene 

David

I would be interested in your take on Nagell.  His story is a bit difficult to believe (i.e., almost too good to be true). It's not easy to validate much of it, as a lot derives from 2nd-hand sources like Professor Richard Popkin and others (Bill Turner, Dick Russell).   It's reassuring that Jim Garrison believed in Nagell's story, and some of the evidence and anecdotes are hard to ignore.  It is unclear who he was working for/with in the early 60's ... his military intelligence career ended in 1959, and he had some controversial experiences in the early 60's in California.  There are also documents out there that indicate he experienced brain trauma, and he is characterized as unsteady by many who encountered him.  It also doesn't seem that his marriage and family life were sound.  

Gene

23 hours ago, Matt Allison said:

The Hench report is an interview with Nagell; of Nagell making claims, not the interviewer making a statement of facts about Nagell.

IOW, it doesn't prove any claim made to be true. So its value is next to nothing.

Matt

Not sure how you feel about Nagell, as his story almost seems incredulous, but he is difficult for me to ignore or dismiss.  Author Dick Russell would likely vouch for Nagell's credibility.  Also, his death was equally intriguing ... when the Assassination Records Review Board decided to contact Nagell. The ARRB sent a registered letter on October 31, 1995. One day after the letter was mailed, Nagell was found dead in his apartment, victim of an apparent heart attack.

Gene

13 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Jim-

Let me get back to you on these questions. 

As for the Selective Service card...how did LHO make his phony card? He drafted it up in a graphics shop. 

There were graphics shops in those days, and white-out.  

On the Hench memo, see comments above. 

Side note: Has anyone seem the actual Nagell-Oswald selective service card? I have looked online without avail....

 

 

Ben

The Military Intelligence report was written in May 1969 by special agent Thomas Hench ... it's not the September 1963 warning letter to the FBI.  It isn't yet clear to me how that Hench report was subsequently discredited.

Gene

7 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Of course, you guys do know that Oswald denied going to Mexico City in the DPD interrogation report, and in one of the FBI reports he said he'd been to Mexico only once, and that was to visit Tijuana.

(My apologies if you've already discussed this. It seems clear to me that Holmes was simply in error on this point.)

 

Sandy and David:

Not sure how you feel about Nagell's credibility in this case, but several years after the assassination, Nagell allegedly told a military friend (John Margain) that he had visited Mexico with Oswald (not sure specifically when).  Also, a Military Intelligence report written in May 1969 by special agent Thomas Hench states that Nagell had been conducting "inquiries" into Marina and Lee Oswald from April - September 1963.  Since Nagell was arrested on September 20, 1963, in El Paso, he was out of the picture during the alleged Consulate and Embassy visits.  But if we put stock in some of Nagell's stories, he seemed to know quite a bit about LHO, and some of that interaction apparently occurred in Mexico. 

Nagell's allegations about his Mexico adventures with Oswald have always muddied the waters for me about Mexico City.  

Gene

5 hours ago, Tom Gram said:

I’m not sure you’re really appreciating how insane and blatantly suspicious it is that Marina was not asked a single question about the post office box or the rifle order - but it’s way worse than that. 

Marina almost certainly did visit the Dallas post office at least once, the day she left Irving for New Orleans with Ruth Paine and filed her own change of address from P.O. Box 2915. That CoA form and every subsequent CoA form that could be traced back to it were buried, including a CoA in Oswald’s name that was the very first clue that Oswald had spent time in New Orleans after the assassination - which allowed the Postal Inspection Service to get a jump on the FBI before the FBI realized who they were dealing with. 

The WC had a report from Harry Holmes stating that Oswald claimed in his final interrogation that he lent Marina one of the two keys to the box on occasion to pick up the mail.

The WC also had the Walker note, which if it actually had anything to do with the Walker shooting implies that Oswald believed Marina didn’t know how to get to the Post Office as of the first week of April. 

The WC had zero evidence that Oswald actually picked up the rifle from the Post Office. 

So we have a provable case of disappearing evidence linking Marina to P.O. Box 2915, and the deliberate complete avoidance by the WC of a topic with Marina they had every imaginable reason to question her about in depth.

This thread’s on MC so I’ll stop there - but I recommend you read my essay if you’re curious at all about Marina and the Post Office. It needs an update/addendum, and I’ve changed my opinion on a few things since I wrote it - but you can read it in that google drive link or here: 

https://gregrparker.com/rethinking-oswalds-mail/

I only use the drive link because Greg’s pdf reader threw some of the formatting out of whack for some reason. 

Makes better sense now Tom.  I will read the essay and dig deeper on this.  I do certainly have suspicions about Marina, although it's difficult to put much stock in her testimony.  Perhaps she wasn't asked any questions by the WC about how the rifle got from the PO to Lee's possession and/or Ruth's house, because they were afraid of what she might say. Also, I wouldn't put much stock in any Harry Holmes report about Oswald's interrogation. However, I don't doubt that he may have lent Marina one of the two keys to the box on occasion to pick up the mail.  And the record of someone (anyone) picking up that rifle is nonexistent ... its provenance is highly suspect.

Gene    

On 1/2/2023 at 10:06 PM, Tom Gram said:

I'd defer to Steve Thomas on this topic - but I'd suggest you read my essay on Oswald's mail to get an idea of why I think Marina was likely involved in ordering the rifle:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1XvkmfIq44G8B-B_RV4L90f5AoXYdRTN4/view

The WC and FBI deliberately avoided the topic of the post office box and rifle order with Marina like it was Ebola, despite a mountain of evidence that she had access to the box - some of which vanished very early in the investigation - and her repeated contradictory statements about both the rifle and the Hidell alias. 

This was a very simple issue to clear up - and not at all suggestive of Oswald's innocence. Oswald the controlling, abusive husband supposedly forced Marina to sign the name Hidell on his behalf at least once; he allegedly said in his interrogations that he gave Marina one of the two keys to the box on occasion to pick up his mail; and not a single postal worker could remember handing over a large package to Oswald, despite so-called "exhaustive inquires" by the Postal Inspection Service. Marina received all her mail in P.O. Box 2915, the box remained open when Oswald went to New Orleans, and Marina filed her own change of address from the box to Ruth Paine's house on May 10th - the same day she drove to New Orleans with Paine. 

If you were an investigator in this situation, what would you do? You'd do the following: 1) ask Marina if she ever picked up any packages for Oswald at the Post Office; 2) show Marina the rifle purchase documents to see if she remembered/knew anything about them; 3) ask Marina if she knew how Oswald had acquired the rifle; 4) ask postal workers if they remembered Marina, who as an attractive young Russian woman would have been about the most memorable human being in Dallas; 5) ask both Marina and Ruth Paine about stopping at the Post Office on May 10th; 6) compare Marina's signature to the Hidell signature on the money order; 7) ask Marina if she'd ever been to the Post Office at all; etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. 

Guess how many of these things the FBI and WC actually did? Zero. The May 10th change of address disappeared and was never entered into evidence, despite crystal clear documentation of its discovery on the day of the assassination; Marina was never shown the rifle order documents - she was actually shown the pistol order form while David Belin misrepresented it as the form used to order the rifle; not a single postal worker was asked about Marina; and Marina was not asked a single question about the post office box or about how Oswald obtained the rifle.

It's actually much worse than that - but I think you get the picture. This doesn't mean that Marina was some mastermind conspirator out to frame Oswald, but it does suggest that the WC wanted to distance Marina, a Soviet citizen, as much as humanly possible from that P.O. Box and the rifle - even if she was just an unwitting participant on behalf of her husband - at the expense of conducting an an honest and thorough investigation. They didn't even give her a chance to deny that she knew anything or had anything to do with it. 

EDIT: Here is Steve’s excellent thread on this topic too: 

 

Steve

I find Steve's logic difficult to follow ... it's not clear cut.  Just because Marina wasn't questioned about this, doesn't make it possible.   I simply cannot envision her going to the PO box and retrieving the contents.  Plus, my perception is that Ruth Paine had her under intense scrutiny at this point. 

Gene

Gene

19 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

SL---

I am not contesting that the CIA gins up fake evidence, or that the FBI may destroy evidence. People can be bribed, threatened or even murdered (LHO for example). 

I am leery of deciding which evidence is fake or real to fit a favored narrative. 

Why is something Nagell claimed to have done (send a letter to Hoover warning of the pending JFKA, but with zero evidence thereof) taken to be a true fact, but when three KGB agents are filmed on camera stating they met the real LHO in MC, that is dismissed?

Yes, it could be Nagell really did send the letter, and the KGB agents are all lying. 

It could be vice-versa, no? 

 

 

Ben

I am having a difficult time following your logic ... what id the point here?

Gene

12 hours ago, Matt Allison said:

The problem with the idea that Oswald wasn't in Mexico at all is that they then have to hide him for a week somewhere else, forge copious amounts of evidence, and get a lot of people to lie about seeing him.

Wouldn't it be a lot easier to just send him to Mexico? The impersonation at the embassy would still be entirely doable.

Matt

Perhaps it was the visit to Robert McKeown, or the Clinton-Jackson incident, or the Odio visit.   There are several Oswald sightings in and around this time, many of which are not fixed with a precise date, but rather characterized as happening in "late September".   LHO is being shepherded around by his exile handlers. 

Gene

1 hour ago, Matt Allison said:

Oh of course!  I know that, Gene. I certainly didn't mean to infer otherwise in any way; I should have phrased my post better.

No worries, Matt ... 

20 hours ago, Tom Gram said:

As you know, I agree with Steve and think Marina is the most likely candidate for both mailing the money order and picking the rifle up from the post office. Her testimony and statements on the rifle and the Hidell alias are sketchy as all hell, and the WC did not ask her a single question about P.O. Box 2915, how Oswald acquired the rifle, or even just how Oswald received his mail in Dallas, which is just insane.

Marina obviously didn’t have a car, but on March 12th she did have access to a ride to the Post Office because she was hanging out with Ruth Paine that day. 

One troubling implication of Marina ordering the rifle - if she really did - is the Walker note. The Walker note implies that as of the first week of April, Oswald thought that Marina had never been to the Post Office. The WC never followed up on this and avoided the topic of the Dallas Post Office with Marina like the plague, which considering the Walker note, Harry Holmes’ 12/17/63 report which stated that Oswald admitted he’d given Marina one of the keys to the box on occasion to pick up the mail, and the fact that Marina filed her own CoA from Box 2915 (that was never entered into evidence), is pretty telling, IMO. 

Both WC questioned document examiners did give the opinion that the handwriting on the money order was Oswald’s - except for the Hidell signature. A rarely discussed yet very interesting fact IMO is that neither Alwyn Cole nor James Cadigan gave any testimony whatsoever on the money order Hidell signature under oath. 

To tie this in to your question about Holmes, I think it’s very possible that Kelley and Holmes wanted to interrogate Oswald separately from the FBI and DPD. The cooperation between the SS and Postal Inspection Service in the first few days of the assassination is remarkably suspicious - all the missing postal records on Oswald and Marina that were provably discovered by Holmes and other Postal Inspectors look to have disappeared in Secret Service custody. 

That said, the evidence suggests that Holmes was perfectly willing to perjure himself to the point of turning over an almost certainly altered document to the WC - so I don’t think it’s that much of a stretch to think that he’d make up the bit about Oswald admitting to being in MC.

Again, I have no problem with Oswald being in MC, or even with Oswald admitting to it. I just don’t think Holmes is credible enough of a sole source to use as evidence on this without some sort of corroboration. 

I’ll end with a bit of self-indulgence. If Marina had a hand in ordering the rifle, how should we interpret her first-day affidavit? What does the affidavit actually say? 

https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth338563/m1/1/

Of course, Marina later claimed that she initially lied, and, through a clusterf$!?* of contradictory statements, that Oswald owned a rifle throughout 1963. She even let slip in a Feb ‘64 FBI report that Oswald received the rifle through the mail - but there was no follow-up whatsoever on how she knew that by the FBI or WC. 

Tom

I can't see where Marina ordered the rifle or picked it up ... the same people who did the revolver (at the same time) orchestrated this entire weapons purchase, imho (under an alias, Hidell).   I don't think that a young Russian bride could/would be capable of that.  What makes you think she did this?

Gene

12 hours ago, Matt Allison said:

Fidel Castro is dead and the country of Cuba is a non-entity politically. If Russo says he has evidence Castro effected the JFKA, then let's f*cking see it.

Matt

For the record, I don't believe any of this. Gus Russo is not a credible source or researcher.   He has been involved in a number of prominent disinformation projects, and ranks up there with Gerald Posner, Phillip Shenon and other purveyors of bad information ... defenders of the Warren Commission and proponents of the ludicrous Castro-did-it theme. 

Gene  

Lance ... so Oswald did all of this without any help or encouragement ... all on his lonesome, his own volition?   And he was leaving his wife, to go to Cuba as a "hero of the revolution", even with a 2nd baby on the way?   And the rifle that he "went and got" was one he hadn't used since it arrived by mail order in March ... under an alias (Hidell) later used to incriminate him at the Tippit murder scene? 

23 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Got that one right Sandy.

Their so called bottom line about him being there, the visa application and photo, has been vitiated by David Josephs.

I have a problem with a show that features Carlos Bringuier, Ed Butler and Dick Helms. And does not inform the reader about the whole Duran story.  And culminates in that dog and pony show about the trigger guard print that Pat Speer did such a nice expose on.

Bottom line:  When Tony Summers asks to have his name taken off,  that is saying something.

I will be doing an essay on Gus Russo soon.

Jim

Russo seems like a scoundrel, and I wouldn't characterize him as a "foremost expert" on the assassination. Russo is apparently a member of The Mob Museum’s Advisory Council, and claims he was co-lead reporter for the 1993 documentary Who Was Lee Harvey Oswald? for PBS.  His November 2021 article in the blog MobMuseum.com is quite the piece of disinformation, and posits a Cuban-driven plot: 

Gus Russo, one of the foremost experts on the JFK assassination, says Cuban officials were aware of Lee Harvey Oswald’s intention to kill Kennedy and encouraged him.

Russo has a simple explanation for the Mexico City charade:

"Oswald was there for six days in Mexico City ... but the witnesses that we’ve uncovered say that he was meeting for lunches and dinners and going to Communist get-togethers. He was meeting with Castro’s intelligence officers, and they were encouraging him. One officer told us that, ‘We offered him money, but he wasn’t interested in money. It was all ideological for him.’ So [the Cuban agents] gave him a few dollars to go to the bullfights and to walk around Mexico City"

In the article, Russo also defames Mark Lane 

"Lane’s work turned out to be “completely inaccurate, there were a lot of falsehoods in it . . . it was a total fiction,” Russo said. In fact, Vasili Mitrokhin, who for years had been the Russian KGB archivist, claimed in a 1999 book he co-authored, The Sword and the Shield, that the KGB spy agency clandestinely fed disinformation on the JFK killing to an undercover KGB source in America, a faux journalist named Genrikh Borovik. Mitrokhin contended that Lane (unawares) trusted and used this disinformation to write his book, falsely alleging CIA involvement, meant to discredit the U.S. government in the eyes of Americans. It proved effective in doing that. 

Then Russo slanders Oliver Stone and Jim Garrison:

"Oliver Stone’s movie JFK. (Russo initially consulted for the project but withdrew after he read the script ... movies are powerful,” Russo said, “and especially in an era when young people aren’t reading. Movies are their main influence, and it’s terrible that that movie JFK got the last word, so to speak, on what happened for a generation who doesn’t read. I’m always hoping that someday the other movie will come out, the true story, and I try and get that done because that’s the only way we can get to young people.”

Jim Garrison was another really crazy guy,” Russo said. “And when he decided that he was going to go after the assassination theory, [arguing] that the CIA killed Kennedy and Oswald was some innocent patsy, he was influenced by Mark Lane [who] was part of his counsel, his inner circle telling him all these things."

Apparently, we were all being fed disinformation by the "KGB psychological warfare division" according to Russo ... further in the article, Russo perpetuates all of the various Oswald myths:

"In no way a hero, Oswald, Russo said, continually beat his wife, Marina, tried to kill General Edwin Walker – with the same rifle he used to shoot Kennedy – earlier in 1963, murdered President Kennedy and Officer Tippit, and finally tried to shoot a second Dallas officer while resisting arrest.  He was “a serial murderer wannabe and a violent sociopath, not exactly the kind of guy the CIA would hire as an officer or asset,” Russo said.

Oswald was a good shot in the Marines. He had a sharpshooter’s rating. He hit 48 out of 50 rapid-fire bullseyes from 200 yards, with a bolt-action weapon. Kennedy was much closer than that in Dealey Plaza, and Oswald had been practicing rapid-fire bolt action shooting all summer. 

Last, he then uses LBJ as a rationale for his Cuba-did-it story:

According to assassination expert Gus Russo, President Lyndon Johnson decided to cover up intelligence reports of the Cuban connection to Oswald in order to prevent war with Cuba and its ally, the Soviet Union.  McCone, after reviewing his agency’s secret statements, had come to a conclusion about the assassination. “It was the Castro connection,” he told the new president. Johnson also spoke by phone with his own longtime sources in the Mexican government, as well as CIA and FBI officers stationed in Mexico City. Thus, Johnson knew the troubling story within only hours of Kennedy’s death, the connections Cuban intelligence and Cuban leader Fidel Castro had to Oswald.  

Russo addresses (and distorts) all of the major tenets of the assassination story with deceptive sophistry.  He bases his Cuban-driven theory "not only on interviews, but on documentary evidence from the American, Russian, Mexican and other governments, many unclassified and released since the 1990s."

I've come to believe that - when "they" (i.e., critics like Russo) attack someone - it's usually a sign that those being attacked are onto the real story and truth.   And he discounts Mark Lane, Oliver Stone and Jim Garrison ... three very credible individuals.  You simply can't make a story like Russo's up ... I look forward to your essay. 

Gene

18 hours ago, Bob Ness said:

Of course. Thanks for the previous response.

Bob

Not sure of how much stock we can put in Dean Andrews' testimony.  From everything that I've read, he was pretty scared, and had been warned (and possibly threatened) about talking.  My read - based on Garrison's later investigatory work - is that Dean (a well-informed lawyer) was too close to the "fire" and knew something sinister was afoot in New Orleans with Shaw, Ferrie, Bannister, et al.  By the time the Warren Commission deposed him in July 1964, he was telling them whatever they wanted to hear.  And he seems to have been backing away from his previous FBI interviews, that were likely too close to the truth:  

LIEBELER. Do you remember telling the FBI that he told you that he was being paid $25 a day for handing out these leaflets?   

ANDREWS. I could have told them that. I know I reminded him of the $25. I may have it confused, the $25. What I do recall, he said it was a job. I guess I asked him how much he was making.

But obviously, someone was paying Oswald for the FPCC charade.

Gene

14 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

Comments on Oswald and Mexico City

Nothing about Oswald going to Mexico City assists, but only complicates, the Warren Commission conclusion that Oswald acted alone in killing President Kennedy. It runs counter to interest for the FBI and Warren Commission et al to fabricate evidence or influence witnesses or marionette-string Marina to have her say Oswald did go to Mexico City, after ca. midnight Nov 22, 1963. 

If there was incentive to cover up or suborn some witnesses to perjure testimony a certain way etc., would that not work in the opposite direction, toward if possible denying Oswald went to Mexico City? Was there even a brief period of time in which a complete coverup of Oswald's having been in Mexico City was contemplated at the LBJ/Hoover level? (But not carried out because it could not be carried out?)

As Steve Roe notes Silvia Duran's and the Cuban consulate's information was in Oswald's address book. There is no secure evidence Oswald was anywhere else during the days of Mexico City. Oswald wrote a draft of a letter in his handwriting in which he refers to having been in Mexico City. Marina spilled it that he had been to Mexico City. I have come to see that the Silvia Odio visit, far from being an argument against the Mexico City trip as often perceived and as the Warren Commission considered a difficulty, is a strong argument in support of it for this reason: the date of the Silvia Odio three-person visit can be securely established by argument to have been early eve. Wed. Sept 25, 1963. (More likely earlier evening according to Annie Odio's testimony than later in the evening of Silvia's, from Houston logistics considerations.)

Apart from the independent argument establishing that date, there is a further argument supporting that Wednesday date that I have not seen cited: in the very tiny and runon handwritten letter of Silvia's father, from his imprisonment in Cuba and writing past the eyes of his Cuban censors, Odio Sr. writes advice to family members and includes, buried in the tiny, runon difficult-to read handwritten sentences, a line of advice to Silvia to not go out Wednesday evenings with her girlfriends, that he does not think that is a good idea, at the same time telling her whoever claimed to know him on that occasion she must verify before believing. It may be that the "Wednesday evening" reference (not any other day of the week) is an allusion to what Silvia wrote in her letter to him (which has not survived, but it is clear she wrote him of the three-man visit to her), and supports that it occurred on a Wednesday evening, i.e. Wed Sept 25. Silvia was going out the evening the three men including Oswald visited her; Odio Sr. answering her letter about that visit comments on her going out on Wednesday evenings, q.e.d. a Wednesday, supporting the Wed Sept 25 date.

The point about the Wed Sept 25 date of the Silvia Odio incident is that is precisely the correct time to account for Oswald having been driven, first from New Orleans to Dallas that day, and then from Dallas to Houston that evening, to catch the bus from Houston onward for the Mexico City trip. The Warren Commission could find no evidence of or realistic mechanism of Oswald getting from New Orleans to Houston by bus, but assumed it must have happened that way anyway, when the solution is there was no bus to Houston for Oswald, but instead a witnessed presence of Oswald in a car being driven at exactly the right time on that trip. It resolves that mystery. The juxtaposition of the timing is the argument here that it was part of the Mexico City trip, and therefore that Oswald did go to Mexico City.

In addition according to sworn testimony, Oswald himself talked of the Mexico City trip in his final interrogation, not to Fritz, but to federal officials questioning him, as told by postal inspector Holmes who was present. This can be combined with calling into question the common report that Oswald denied he went to Mexico City in his interrogations. Oswald's words directly are not known to have been recorded, and have been represented as having him deny to Fritz that he went to Mexico City when asked in his first interrogation.

Agreed-upon facts are that the question was asked of Oswald by Fritz at Hosty's urging, and whatever Oswald replied was cut off by a knock on the door and Oswald then taken out for a lineup. The issue is what exactly did Oswald say in response to the question before the interruption. Hosty in little-known sworn testimony to the Church Committee, and I believe elsewhere (not only to the Church Committee), was very clear (in that testimony, though Hosty says the opposite in his book Assignment: Oswald) that Oswald did not answer the question before the interruption. There is no known record of Fritz ever asking that question again. So although it is widely believed and claimed that Oswald denied he went to Mexico City, there is some conflicting evidence on that point, competing hearsay, and it is not fully clear that he denied it.

Whatever he actually answered on Friday, by Sunday morning Oswald was openly discussing his Mexico City trip. I was surprised to notice that according to an account of Leavelle of the Dallas Police, he (Leavelle) and Fritz drank coffee in a restaurant across the street for a good part of the time between 10 am and 11:20, before it was time for Oswald to be brought down from Fritz's office for the transfer to be killed. (According to the accounts I can see, Fritz though in charge of the transfer does not appear to have been hands-on in charge of its timing, with the insistence on the risky daytime transfer from Chief Curry, who was receiving orders from the mayor's office above his level on that, though the whole issue of who was responsible for what is murky. ) Therefore the objection that Fritz never mentions Oswald speaking of Mexico City Sunday morning in Fritz's written reports of the interrogations may have a possible explanation in that Fritz and Leavelle were across the street drinking coffee when Oswald talked about Mexico City on Sunday morning. Leavelle:

"Around 10: AM while the Federal agents were talking to Oswald, Captain Fritz asked me if I would like a cup of coffee. We walked across the street to the White Plaza Hotel Coffee Shop had coffee and discussed the transfer. On our way back to the office ... By the time we returned to the third floor office it was about eleven AM. The federal agents were bringing to a close their questioning of Oswald ... ("Detective Leavelle's Personal Notes", n.d., https://www.seandegrilla.com/detective-leavelle-s-personal-notes)

That is, according to this account of Leavelle, Fritz was not even present most of the time before it was time for Oswald to go below to be killed. Here is what Holmes said was going on:

Mr. BELIN. Anything else about Russia? Did he ever say anything about going to Mexico? Was that ever covered?
Mr. HOLMES. Yes. To the extent that mostly about--well--he didn't spend, "Where did you get the money?" He didn't have much money and he said it didn't cost much money. He did say that where he stayed it cost $26 some odd, small ridiculous amount to eat, and another ridiculous small amount to stay all night, and that he went to the Mexican Embassy to try to get this permission to go to Russia by Cuba, but most of the talks that he wanted to talk about was how he got by with a little amount.
They said, "Well, who furnished you the money to go to Mexico?"
"Well, it didn't take much money." And it was along that angle, was the conversation.
Mr. BELIN. Did he admit that he went to Mexico?
Mr. HOLMES. Oh, yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say what community in Mexico he went to?
Mr. HOLMES. Mexico City.
Mr. BELIN. Did he say what he did while he was there?
Mr. HOLMES. He went to the Mexican consulate, I guess.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. BELIN. Now, with regard to this Mexican trip, did he say who he saw in Mexico?
Mr. HOLMES. Only that he went to the Mexican consulate or Embassy or something and wanted to get permission, or whatever it took to get to Cuba. They refused him and he became angry and he said he burst out of there, and I don't know. I don't recall now why he went into the business about how mad it made him.
He goes over to the Russian Embassy. He was already at the American. This was the Mexican--he wanted to go to Cuba.
Then he went to the Russian Embassy and he said, because he said then he wanted to go to Russia by way of Cuba, still trying to get to Cuba and try that angle and they refused and said, "Come back in 30 days," or something like that. And, he went out of there angry and disgusted.
Mr. BELIN. Did he go to the Cuban Embassy, did he say or not?
Mr. HOLMES. He may have gone there first, but the best of my recollection, it might have been Cuban and then the Russian, wherever he went at first, he wanted to get to Cuba, and then he went to the Russian to go by Cuba.
Mr. BELIN. Did he say why he wanted to go to Cuba?
Mr. HOLMES. No.
Mr. BELIN. Did--this wasn't reported in your interview in the memorandum that you wrote?
Mr. HOLMES. No.
Mr. BELIN. Is this something that you think you might have picked up from just reading the papers, or is this something you remember hearing?
Mr. HOLMES. That is what he said in there. 

Again, I do not understand the logic that all these witnesses were fabricating testimony--under oath with all the seriousness that means for personal jeopardy let alone conscience--and that physical evidence was being fabricated and planted to show Oswald was in Mexico City, against interest, when the interest of LBJ and Hoover after ca. midnight Nov 22, and then the Warren Commission appear to run in the opposite direction. I do not understand the thinking that says the FBI and Warren Commission were furiously undertaking extraordinarily elaborate machinations to fabricate witness testimony and physical evidence of an Oswald trip to Mexico City that never happened, when it flies in the face of plausibility and counter to reasonable motive. (What was going on in Mexico City when Oswald was there is of course a whole other set of issues, not to the point here.) There is also the question of was the CIA itself fooled, or was it knowingly fooling other agencies in reporting that Oswald had visited the Soviet embassy in Mexico City, and did the CIA have a track record of being fooled or fooling other agencies in that manner (I doubt it). 

Greg

I would seriously doubt the hearsay that Postal Inspector Harry Holmes relates here.  He states "he went to the Mexican Consulates, I guess ... ".  Then, he admits that none of this was reported in his memorandum of interview.  Holmes is not a reliable source on anything.  He is frankly a suspect in the entire affair.  

Holmes is the one and only person in Dallas to know the number of the money order that linked Oswald with the Mannlicher-Carcano rifle; the only person who claimed to have located the money order "stub" (and had access to postal money orders and GPO cancellation stamps); and then waited 4 hours before telling postal inspectors that this never-deposited, never-cashed money order could be found at the Federal Records Center in Washington, DC?

Harry D Holmes, a Dallas postal inspector, an active informant for the FBI (Dallas T-2 and T-10), who according to his abbreviated Warren testimony was "feeding change of addressses as bits of information to the FBI and Secret Service, and sort of a coordinating deal on it ..." (before he was cut off by David Belin and taken off the record). There exist no stenographic records or tape in evidence for Oswald's interrogation sessions ... just the word of Harry Holmes, whose summary was not submitted until December 17th, almost a month after the assassination. Then, under oath, he said he heard Oswald say things that others did not hear him say.  

The only non- law enforcement officer allowed to sit in during Oswald's final interrogation.  A guy who dropped his wife off at church the morning of Oswald’s transfer to county jail, and just happened to wander over to the police station where his friend Will Fritz was going to interview Oswald one more time, and asked to sit in Room 317 with Fritz, Forrest Sorrells of the Secret Service, and several deputies who were supposed to be guarding Oswald. And then Fritz allows Holmes to ask questions ...  a lowly off-duty postal Inspector walks in during an interrogation of the alleged assassin of the President and interrogates the prime suspect.

Really ... 

Gene

10 hours ago, Bob Ness said:

Is that correct? Source?

Bob

See the August 2021 Kennedys and King article by Paul Bleau "Exposing the FPCC, Part 2":

“Follow the money” is one of the things that the FBI and Warren Commission did not do in trying to understand how such a destitute person like Oswald could run an FPCC chapter, raise a family, and save money for Marina (at least $1600 in today’s money).[1] He was so poor that the White Russians paid for his YMCA fees. The FPCC added the following to this drifter’s cost of living: FPCC membership fees, renting of a space, hiring leafleteers, paying a fine for disturbing the peace, the purchase of rubber-stamping equipment, personal displacements, printing of up to five different pieces of literature, correspondence with the FPCC, and use of a Post Office Box…with not one single member to help absorb the costs. The following exchange between Oswald’s lawyer and Wesley Liebeler of the Warren Commission suggests something more plausible than Oswald giving away time and money for a passé organization rather than focusing on his growing family—he was paid $25 a day (Note that Oswald’s job at the Texas Schoolbook Depository paid $1.50 per hour):

This commentary is derived from Dean Andrews' July 21, 1964, Warren Commission testimony to Wesley Liebeler:

Mr. ANDREWS.  Only time I really paid attention to this boy, he-was in the front of the Maison Blanche Building giving out these kooky Castro things.

Mr. LIEBELER. When was this, approximately?  Mr. ANDREWS. I don’t remember. I was coming from the KBC building, and I walked past him. You know how you see somebody, recognize him. So, I turned around, came back, and asked him what he was doing giving that junk out. He said it was a job. I reminded him of the $25 he owed the office. He said he would come over there, but he never did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that he was getting paid to hand out this literature?  Mr. ANDREWS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELGR. Did he tell you how much?  Mr. ANDREWS. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember telling the FBI that he told you that he was being paid $25 a day for handing out these leaflets?   Mr. ANDREWS. I could have told them that. I know I reminded him of the $25. I may have it confused, the $25. What I do recall, he said it was a job. I guess I asked him how much he was making. They were little square chits a little bit smaller than the picture you have of him over there [indicating].

Mr. LIEBELER. He was handing out these leaflets?  Mr. ANDREWS. They were black-and-white pamphlets extolling the virtues of Castro, which around here doesn’t do too good. They have a lot of guys, Mexicanos and Cubanos, that will tear your head off if they see you fooling with these things. 

Gene

12 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Oh my gosh, I've always been under the impression the J. Edgar Hoover thought that the Oswald at the CUBAN Consulate was an imposter. But reading the evidence for myself, I see that it was the Oswald at the SOVIET Embassy that Hoover said was an imposter.

Does anybody know if Hoover felt the same way about the Oswald at the Cuban Consulate? Or is our knowledge of that guy also being an imposter based only on other sources? (Duran's and Azcue's descriptions, Cuban intelligence, two CIA plants not seeing Oswald.)

 

Sandy

I think that Eusebio Azcue's statements are credible ... and he was adamant that the imposter in the Cuban Consulate on Friday Sept 27th was not our guy Ozzie.  There were also some other sources that testified to that effect.

The HSCA Lopez report states that Eusebio Azcue Lopez, a Cuban citizen, was the Cuban Consul, and he had diplomatic immunity.  The HSCA asked the Cuban government to make Azcue available for staff interviews and they complied with the Committee's request on April 1, 1978.  Azcue stated that Alfredo Mirabal, who in September 1963 had recently arrived from Cuba to assume the Consul's duties, had also been present during Oswald's visit.   During a second trip to Cuba, the HSCA (including Lopez and Hardaway) interviewed Mirabal. Both of these individuals were then available for the public hearings on September 18, 1978, where Azcue Lopez again told the HSCA at a public hearing on 9/18/78 that the Consul visitor was not LHO. 

There were also other witnesses that day at the Consulate ...two Cuban officials—Guillermo Ruiz and Antonio García—from the Commercial Office, located upstairs, were also eyewitnesses of the Oswald imposter’s making a scene at the Consulate, and both claimed they didn’t hear any threats against Kennedy.  I would refer you to a May 2017 Kennedys and King article "JFK Declassified: Tracking Oswald, Part 3" written by Arnaldo M. Fernandez which unravels some of this story.  Further, the declassified HSCA Lopez Report describes the following:

The Cuban Consulate was in a separate building from the Embassy.  In 1963, the Cuban diplomatic compound in Mexico City was at Francisco Marquez Street (Colonia Condesa) with two main entrances: One to the Embassy, on the corner of Tacubaya Alley, and the other to the Consulate, on the corner of Zamora Street. 

Gene

1 minute ago, Gene Kelly said:

Joe

On April 6th, Oswald was let go by Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall because, in his supervisor's opinion, he allegedly did not get along with his fellow employees. He then decides to move to New Orleans, and on April 24, Ruth drives him to the bus station; he arrives in NOLA and moves in with his aunt Lillian Murret.

On May 9, Oswald submitted an application for employment with William Reily Company, where his employment lasted a little more than two months until July 19th, when he was let go for allegedly spending too much time in Alba's garage (where he is apparently getting paid by either INS or FBI for unknown services. 

Meanwhile, Marina left Dallas on May 10th and arrives with Mrs. Paine, who stayed with the Oswald’s for 8 days. On May 14, Ruth Paine leaves New Orleans to return to her home in Irving.  

Lee apparently is paid $25 (by Bannister and Associates) for the leafletting stunts in August. On September 20th, Ruth Paine returns to NOLA, where Marina decides to return with her to Dallas for the birth of the baby; on September 23rd, they leave for Irving.  Lee will return a week or so later, on October 4th, allegedly with no job and no money. 

Gene