Cliff Varnell

Excellent point. One of the leading current critics of CE399, John Hunt, is a single bullet theorist. Glenn, the bullet hole in JFK's tucked-in custom-made dress shirt is four inches below the bottom of the collar. That's 2-3 inches below the location advocated by both LNers and a lot of CTs, even those who are not single bullet theorists. The bullet holes in JFK's clothes align with the 3rd thoracic vertebra, too low to allow any possibility of the SBT. Bullets don't take 90 degree turns in mid-air. Don't buy the Big Lie about some multi-inch clothing "bunch" because tucked in custom made dress shirts are specifically designed NOT to bunch up more than a fraction of an inch. It's all right here (emphasis added): Alan Flusser, Clothes and the Man: the Principles of Fine Men's Dress http://www.throughtherye.com/flusser/ch7.htm If you've got multiple inches of slack in your skin you've got problems. ibid. "Shirt Fit" http://www.throughtherye.com/flusser/ch7part3.htm Emphasis added: Any high back wound theory requires a "bulge" in JFK's shirt that clearly didn't exist. Custom-made shirts only provide a fraction of an inch of slack. It's unimpeachable. Vince Bugliosi wears expensive threads and he knows this. He lied when the said that JFK's shirt would be expected to bunch up multiple inches. The man is a xxxx, pure and simple.

"Interview With The Assassin" (2002) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interview_With_the_Assassin

Jim, I don't have access to my books right now. Again, I'm not challenging the t&t windshield hole. You've forgotten about Connally, who was also struck at least once in this time frame. So he have the following hits between Z190 and Z255 -- JFK in the throat, JFK in the back, JBC in the torso, JBC in the wrist, JBC in the thigh, the hole in the windshield. I think we both agree that JFK's wounds and JBC's wounds were not related. I see no evidence to conclude that the windshield strike and JFK's throat wound were related. There were just too many rounds fired into the limo at that point. Coincidence. I don't buy the notion that a first/shot kill shot would have been planned to hit Kennedy through the windshield, especially at that distance. I don't know. I also don't know how many times Connally was hit, or the position of the Connally shooter(s). Ascertaining the timing of the back shot is a little tricky, since we only have one eye-witness to it and no photographic evidence of it. According to SSA Glenn Bennett he heard two firecracker sounds, the second one hit JFK in the back. Evidently shots that don't go through windshields also cause a similar sound. It is quite common for gunfire to be described as "sounded like firecrackers." I think the throat shot occurred circa Z190. Recall that the HSCA analysis of the Willis #5 photo noted a "distinct straight-line feature" in the region of the hands of Black Dog Man. Either BDM was the throat shooter, dressed as a cop with a firearm in his hand, or BDM was a young black woman with a pop bottle in her hand. According to Rosemary Willis, BDM was a "conspicuous" person who happened to "disappear the next instant." Either the shooter ducked down after taking the shot, or the young black woman ducked because the round was fired right behind her, in back of the picket fence.

Allow me to re-phrase the statement. "If the intent was to paralyze JFK to prevent him from ducking down from a non-fatal shot, the throat shot was a perfect hit that paralyzed him in about two seconds." If the intent was to kill JFK with the first shot, I can't think of anything more far-fetched than to plan to shoot through the windshield with a small caliber firearm.

Jim, I'm not challenging the t&t hole in the windshield. The question is whether or not it was caused by the same round that struck JFK's throat. Several possibilities. Including the possibility of the throat shot and windshield shot being separate. Connally was not shot before the throat shot, but he was wounded by Z255. Are we to conclude, therefore, that the throat shot also wounded Connally? Of course not. How does this establish that the throat shot and t&t shot were the same? Lots of times people mistake firearm reports for firecrackers. SSA Glenn Bennett reported that the back shot also sounded like a firecracker. 2 out of 3 ain't bad. I've got AS and MIDP. I've read Weldon's work, and if he presented iron-clad evidence that the throat shot was the t&t shot I must have missed it. I understand that we have reason to regard the head x-rays as fakes, but I don't recall a specific case against the neck x-ray. Maybe I missed it. I found Mantik's "Cause for Doubt" to be an utterly wrong-headed approach to the SBT trajectory. Cause for doubt? Gimme a break! We don't combat the "high back wound" lie by micro-analyzing this pernicious fantasy as if there was any doubt whatsoever! Cause for doubt? No, cause for certainty. JFK's back wound was at T3. Period. You could demonstrate this to a five year old. It does not require an advanced degree to disprove the SBT trajectory, and I find the notion that it does require an advanced degree to understand the JFK assassination to be, well, wrong-headed. I haven't seen any evidence that the throat shot passed through the windshield. All I see is a hypothetical trajectory that proves nothing. The use of blood soluble rounds in JFK's high tech killing doesn't run counter to the existence of a t&t hole in the windshield. The two events are not mutually exclusive. That's what the ladies tell me. First of all, it's not my hypothesis. This was the "general feeling" among the prosectors the night of the autopsy. It was their pet hypothesis, and the two FBI men at the autopsy took their hypothesis seriously enough to call the FBI Lab to follow-through. So this scenario is part of the official record, along with the low back wound and the notation of pre-autopsy surgery to the head. Secondly -- what evidence have I ignored? T&t hole in the windshield at Z255 -- check. Bullets fired through windshield sounds like firecracker -- check. Small cuts on JFK's face consistent with windshield glass -- check. Does this add up to throat shot = t&t shot? No. To me, what you are positing is like some kind of basketball trick shot in a game of HORSE -- "From the south over-pass, across the Plaza near the corner of Elm and Houston, through the windshield -- nothing but neck." See above. How do the reports from Parkland Hospital establish throat shot = t&t shot? Here's what Dudman wrote in the New Republic, December 21, 1963. (quote on) Some of the points raised here bothered me on the scene in Dallas, where I witnessed President Kennedy's assassination and the slaying of the accused assassin two days later. Three circumstances --- the entry wound in the throat, the small, round hole in the windshield of the Presidential limousine, and the number of bullets found afterward --- suggested that there had been a second sniper firing from a point in front of the automobile. (quote off) This does not establish throat shot = t&t shot. (Jim F quote) For someone who poses as a serious student of JFK, that is a stunning indictment. (quote off) I don't identify with the JFK Assassination Critical Research Community, so this is not a problem with me, my rep among other students of the case. I identify with the First Day witnesses at Dealey Plaza/Parkland/Bethesda. These collectively heroic people have been maligned for nearly 5 decades. I particularly abhor the tendency among some critics to turn witnesses into perps. You are much more supportive of the witnesses than others, Jim, which is why I regard you warmly...in spite of your temper. [And, by the way, you have never given me the HSCA pages where I can see the X-ray and its report.] The editor of Assassination Science doesn't have the neck x-ray and the HSCA report on it? Even more reason to find the neck x-ray authentic, it hasn't crossed your radar, Jim. I'll try to dig it out. I've moved a bunch of stuff around recently and I don't have access to my books right now.

Jim, keep in mind that the throat shot occurred circa Z190. Altgens was snapped at Z255. In between Connally was hit, perhaps twice. A military style volley with multiple shooters will sound like a single report, right? We don't know how many shots were fired into the limo by Z255. There is a possibility that a shot after Z190 struck the windshield prior to Z255. I'm jus' say'n...

I've read my limit on the subject, Jim. I followed Weldon's battles with Pamela Brown. I followed Doug's debates with Tink. I'm not arguing that there was no t&t windshield hole, I'm just pointing out that there is no proof that the throat wound and the windshield strike were the same shot. Could you paraphrase the evidence which rules out the throat shot as separate from the windshield shot? Jim the only argument you have presented is that the throat shot lines up with the windshield t&t and a location on the south overpass, which is far from dispositive. Assurances don't cut it. When you or Doug Weldon offer something other than a hypothesized trajectory to establish that the throat wound and the windshield strike were the same shot, I'll take it seriously. And the nature of the damage in the neck x-ray gives us plenty reason to doubt that JFK was hit with a conventional round.

From Gerald McKnight's Breach of Trust, pg. 192:

Were those Warren Commission staffers in the limo, or FBI men? If Specter were in control of the re-creation why does he stand there looking like an idiot with his pointer four inches above the wound?

dupe

The Jefferies film! The Jefferies film is great. Taken on Main St it shows JFK's jacket bulging up into his hairline. But at the corner of Main and Houston JFK brushed the back of his head and the bulge got knocked down (Weaver photo). The shirt collar is visible in Betzner, but not in Jefferies. I'm just asking what proof precludes the windshield shot being separate from the throat shot, and why we should view the neck x-ray as inauthentic. I've yet to see so much as a hint of an argument here.

It was the FBI who put the back wound in its proper position, not the Warren Commission staff. Hoover never bought the SBT. Hoover wanted to make Specter look like an idiot. This isn't correct, Cliff. Specter ran the show at the re-enactment. He was shown the back wound photo on the day of the re-enactment by SS agent Thomas Kelley. According to Specter, correct? Those were FBI men in the limo, correct? And wasn't it Frazier of the FBI who used the face sheet to place the wound?

You're falling for the okey-doke here, Jim. They are conning you! Take a good look at the photo on the left in Hunt's article you linked above. The Jim Towner photo, taken on the corner of Houston and Elm. There is JFK's 1.25" jacket collar towering over the .75" fabric fold. What you are buying into here is Gross Ease Fallacy -- the notion that casual body movements cause multiple inches of fabric to move. It cannot happen. Such a scenario is contrary to the nature of reality. The point I have made is that, if t What new photograph? Nothing new about Betzner...

I'm willing to stand corrected, but I think those are FBI men in the limo. Yes, the Warren Commission took part and took photographs. It was the FBI who placed the back wound down low, making Specter look like an idiot. No expert analysis is necessary, frankly. The bullet hole in the shirt is dispositive as to the location of the back wound. If I were to cite expert analysis I'd pick Alan Flusser, the designer/historian who describes a custom made shirt as "almost a second skin."

No, I don't think I am. You haven't identified anything in this thread to preclude the windshield shot occurring after the throat shot. The next time you present evidence of such will be the first time in this thread, near as I can tell. I'm waiting. I place weight on their reading of the neck x-ray, a straight-forward analysis. I have yet to be given a reason to think that the neck x-ray isn't authentic. Tom Wilson also identified a hole in the windshield in Altgens. But the throat shot was circa Z190, and Altgens was taken almost 4 seconds later. -- Again, what is to preclude the windshield shot being separate from the throat shot? Again -- why would the conspirators aim the crucial first shot through a windshield? I'm not faking anything. My contention is that the case doesn't require that much scientific analysis. We can establish the back wound by the principles of fine men's dress, for instance. There is medical evidence which was not prepared according to proper autopsy protocols, and there is medical evidence which was properly prepared. We simply disregard that which was not properly prepared, and we weigh that which was. Simple. It is the improperly prepared evidence -- the autopsy report, the autopsy photos, and everything to do with the head wounds -- that I do not take seriously. I think studies of the head wounds or the head x-rays or the phony high back wound are not to be taken seriously. They are rabbit holes.

It was the FBI who put the back wound in its proper position, not the Warren Commission staff. Hoover never bought the SBT. Hoover wanted to make Specter look like an idiot.

There is no such thing as "a new Betzner." There is no such thing as a 3+" bunch in Betzner. Lamson is making it up. Don't fall for it, Jim!

The photo wasn't faked. Lamson is bluffing.

Ah Jim, here is FACT, There was a 3+ inch fold of fabric in the back of JFK's jacket in Betzner. The unbendable laws of light and shadow make this FACT unimpechable. This FACT remains regardless of your continued braying. If you can't find a way to REMOVE this fold from JFK's jacket by the moment of the back shot impact you lose. Simple as that. So can you do that or will you continue to wave your hands wildly? The physical evidence of the bullet hole in the shirt trumps Lamson's fever swamp imaginings. Even if such a fold were possible with the jacket, it was impossible with the shirt. Either Lamson's Magic Fold was knocked down by the throat shot -- or Craig is simply trying to leverage his professional qualifications to sell snake oil.

I haven't seen any evidence that the throat shot went through the windshield. What precludes a windshield shot taken after JFK was struck in the throat? The first strike must have been carefully planned, and it makes no sense to me that the conspirators would plan a shot through the windshield. I have yet to see any reason to conclude that a hole in the windshield was caused by the throat shot to the exclusion of all other shots. It's not inconsistent with the neck x-ray. I strenuously disagree! Since there have been no anomalies cited in the Zapruder film frames 186 to 255, the Zap is consistent with both the other Dealey Plaza photos taken in that time frame (Betzner 3, Willis 5, Altgens 6) and the testimony of close-in witnesses Nellie Connally, Linda Willis and Clint Hill -- all of whom describe JFK's reaction to throat trauma as seen in the Zapruder. JFK seized up paralyzed in two seconds, consistent with CIA/DOD weapons technology. There is no need to. Both could have occurred. It's one thing to argue that there was a hole in the windshield. It's another to argue that it had to be the throat shot to the exclusion of all other possibilities.

We KNOW it was an entrance wound. The back wound was too low to be associated with the throat wound, especially given the path on the neck x-ray. Nellie Connally described JFK as grabbing his throat, and we can see him react to throat trauma in the Zap. The only Dealey Plaza back wound witness, SSA Glenn Bennett, described the back shot as separate from the first "firecracker" he heard. The back wound was probed by Humes and then Finck and no transit was found. We KNOW that JFK's back wound was too low because of the location of the bullet hole in his tucked in custom made dress shirt in the vicinity of T3. And a ton of corroborative evidence for the T3 back wound is found in the Death Certificate (signed off as "verified"), the autopsy face sheet properly filled out in pencil (signed off as "verified", also in pencil as per proper autopsy protocol), and the eyewitness statements of more than a dozen people who saw the wound. Any thing else, Duncan? No Cliff, I have Nothing more to add. I wasn't aware before posting the video, that you had medical qualifications, I don't. I cited the neck x-ray and the probing of the back wound during autopsy. Is there a problem with citing this evidence? We don't need the statements of the Parkland doctors to establish the throat entrance wound. Their consensus descriptions of a wound of entry corroborate what we already know from the bullet hole in the shirt and the neck x-ray. Quite accurate corroboration of a minor point.

I have no reason to trust the head x-rays, true. But what reason do I have for not trusting the neck x-ray? Why would such an anti-dramatic wound path be faked? No. The HSCA report on the neck x-ray. No. In the throat from the front, in the back at T3, and an indeterminate number of times in the head. 3 to 5. Throat shot -- right front. Back shot -- Dal-Tex Head shot(s) -- right front, possible multiple directions including South Knoll, the Dal-Tex, and west corner of the TSBD, 6th fl. You're welcome.

This does not account for the hairline fracture of the right T1 transverse process or the air pocket overlaying the C7 and T1 transverse processes, does it? An excellent argument for three head shots, the tentorium ruptured a split second before the temple shot. It wasn't just bruising of the lung tip detected on x-ray -- it was the hairline fracture of the T1 transverse process and the air pocket around the same location. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see where the good doctor's analysis takes this into account.

With all due respect, I prefer to stick with the historical record. I let one principle be my guide: properly prepared medical evidence trumps improperly prepared medical evidence. Once we disregard the final autopsy report, the autopsy photos, and everything regarding the head wounds, the case falls neatly into place, in my opinion. No expert guidance needed.

No, where do you get that idea? Two non-transiting shots that don't line up at all. The FBI men at the autopsy did. The autopsists suggested JFK was hit with rounds that dissolved. FBI man James Sibert called the FBI Lab to inquire as to the existence of such technology. Killion, the FBI Lab guy, said they had CE399 instead. That was the end of the inquiry into blood soluble rounds, and the end of the credibility of the FBI Lab. According to the FBI Lab, which has no credibility in this case. Wrong. It was a hairline fracture of the right T1 transverse process. Could you provide a cite for this? The apex of the lung, in the same path as the nicked trachea and the hairline fracture of the T1 trans process. Correct. Nonsense. The back wound was at T3 -- the bullet path ended at the right C7 and T1 transverse processes. You are clearly unfamiliar with the evidence in the case. Fine. But in the case of JFK's throat shot it did not exit and no bullet was recovered, at least not in the official records. If you don't understand the back wound, none of this is going to make sense to you.