Cliff Varnell

Dawn, honey, friend in Christ, just take a few breaths, relax and answer my question if there was a black op by the conspirators to blame Castro for the assassonation and prompt an invasion, why was it so MISERABLY executed in comparison with the "elegant" if that is the correct word for it framing of the patsy?

Oswald was captured alive, instead of being shot or "disappeared."

This event cost the perps control over the cover-up.

On Eleven Twenty Two Hoover told Bobby Kennedy it was a Castro conspiracy, and

W. Averell Harriman told LBJ the Soviets couldn't have had anything to do with it,

thereby under-cutting the "communist-conspiracy" angle.

Who was more powerful, Edna Hoover or Averell Harriman?

The latter was of the Employer class, the former a mere Employee.

I have mentioned before that even an amateur like me (or you) could successfully frame Castro if we had the access to the resources of the CIA e.g. document forging.

Not if the patsy is captured alive proclaiming his innocence.

Not when one of the guys for whom the CIA was formed, Harriman,

decides to cut his losses and order up the "lone-nut" cover-up.

If you believe the people who framed LHO forged anything why could they not have forged his signature on a bank account and then deposited a substantial sum into it immediately after his return from Mexico? I mean there are a myriad of ways Castro could have been successfully framed for encouraging and paying for the assassination. The Alvardo story is just a joke. There is no sign of intelligence in what someone described as "the Castro hoaxes". There was no "smoking gun" planted to frame Fidel.

Hoover was prepared to say Oswald had been to Cuba.

That was all that was needed, but the Kostikov story (Oswald meets Soviet

assassin-master in MC) would also have played a crucial role in the "blame-Fidel"

scenario -- but Harriman destroyed the "Kostikov-connection" ten minutes after

LBJ got to the White House.

Hoover didn't call the shots on this one -- Harriman did.

This is not nonsense. It is just common sense.

Moreover Bill admits he cannot even state which CIA agent he believes was behind the Alvardo story or any of the other matters.

Harriman beheaded the "Castro-did-it" scenario, which continued to twitch even

in death.

Blackwater Receives New $92 Million Pentagon Contract

Blackwater has received a new $92 million contract from the Pentagon to fly passengers and cargo between locations around central Asia.

Peter, the "Area of Responsibility" for Blackwater in this contract is Kyrgyzstan,

Uzbekistan, Afghanistan, and Pakistan.

Let's put this in the context of the following:

http://www.villagevoice.com/blogs/bushbeat...kwaters_dru.php

Blackwater USA, under investigation for murder and arms smuggling in Iraq, lands

contracts for "drug interdiction," and for transportation of cargo and personnel

around the area where 90% of the world's heroin is produced.

Most heroin used in the United States comes from Latin America.

The ever-growing bumper crop of Afghani heroin may well be targeted for

"interdiction" by the very company most capable of smuggling it into the

United States.

I guess Erik Prince is like Richard Helms -- we just have to take their word

that they're honorable men.

Before the call to Killian at the FBI Lab -- during which the Magic Bullet was

introduced -- the autopsists shared a "general sense" that JFK was struck with

blood soluble rounds.

While there are very exotic! water/blood soluble bullets, I'd not expect anyone to come up with a 'general sense' of that right off....they are exotic to the extreme and I'm sure few doctors have ever heard of them, let alone, seen the results of them. Where does this statement of a shared general sense come from....doesn't ring any bells to me. Again, such exotic munitions exist, but they take special guns and special handling of the bullets before firing - very!~

From the signed affidavit of FBI SA Francis O'Neill:

Some discussion did occur concerning the disintegration of the bullet. A general

feeling existed that a soft-nosed bullet struck JFK. There was discussion concerning

the back wound that the bullet could have been a "plastic" type or an "Ice" [sic]bullet,

one which dissolves after contact.

From the signed affidavit of FBI SA James Sibert:

I recall the doctors looking for a bullet in the body in connection with the back

wound and becoming frustrated during their search. They probed the wound

with a finger and Dr. Finck probed it with a metal probe. They concluded that

the wound went in only so far and they couldn't find the bullet. It was my

impression that both Finck and Humes agreed that there was no exit wound of

the bullet through the back. The doctors also discussed a possible deflection of

the bullet in the body caused by striking bone. Consideration was also given to

a type of bullet which fragments completely....Following discussion among the doctors

relating to the back injury, I left the autopsy room to call the FBI Laboratory and

spoke with Agent Chuch [sic]Killion. I asked if he could furnish any information regarding

a type of bullet that would almost completely fragmentize...

The neck x-ray shows the throat shot bruised the tip of the lung, fractured the

tip of the right T1 transverse process, and left an air pocket C7/T1.

The Clark Panel, Dr. Lattimer, and Larry Sturdivan all proclaimed that the neck x-ray shows a bullet track in the neck above the exit on the throat.

More than a half-dozen Parkland witnesses described the wound as

an entrance.

I noticed this same thing and discuss it on my webpage.

Then you are just as wrong as they are.

The HSCA FPP, however, since they believed the bullet slightly ascended in the back to exit at the throat, had no explanation for a wound track's being in the neck above the exit, and concluded that this air in the neck was air backed up in the neck when Kennedy's tie momentarily sealed off the hole in his trachea. That smells of deception, IMO. I read dozens of books and articles on gunshot wounds and missile tracks, and never read anything about a false track showing up on an x-ray due to clothing sealing off the wound. It also seems more than suspicious that this air just so happened to back up in the neck in the direction of the low EOP entry.

Any properly tailored shirt will leave a quarter inch space between the tie and the skin.

The bruised lung tip, the fracture of the tip of the right T1 transverse process,

and the air pocket at C7/T1 are consistent with a shot to the throat from the front.

Before the call to Killian at the FBI Lab -- during which the Magic Bullet was

introduced -- the autopsists shared a "general sense" that JFK was struck with

blood soluble rounds.

The neck x-ray is consistent with that conclusion.

I despise witness bashing, Len, whether its the JFK assassination or 9/11.

I imagine

Yes, sorting through your fevered imagination is unnecessary.

There is something about the word "massive" that eludes you.

Replied to on the appropriate thread* where you evasion of various contadiction in his accounts was noted.

There are no contradictions in his account.

You simply cannot process the meaning of the word "massive."

No dictionary handy?

Evasion also noted as to the question I asked you about Jones and the other truthers who "bash" witnessess whose version of events they don't like. Why are "double threading"?

When you see me bash a witness, take up the subject.

I don't have any connection with, or control over, Alex Jones.

* http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...st&p=120487

I'll leave with this physical evidence, and you to your imaginings, Len.

As for the column that was probably cut during cleanup

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...st&p=120630

Probably cut during clean-up?

But you don't know for sure, do you?

Those cuts are consistent with a controlled demolition.

Please produce the evidence that standing steel beams were cut in that manner

during clean-up.

I despise witness bashing, Len, whether its the JFK assassination or 9/11.

I imagine

Yes, sorting through your fevered imagination is unnecessary.

There is something about the word "massive" that eludes you.

I'll leave with this physical evidence, and you to your imaginings, Len.

I despise witness bashing, Len, whether its the JFK assassination or 9/11.

I imagine

Yes, sorting through your fevered imagination is unnecessary.

There is something about the word "massive" that eludes you.

I'll leave with this physical evidence, and you to your imaginings, Len.

The neck x-ray shows the throat shot bruised the tip of the lung, fractured the

tip of the right T1 transverse process, and left an air pocket C7/T1.

Cliff wrote:

"It is Bugliosi's claim of thoroughness that makes a xxxx out of him."

And the reason why he is a xxxx is because he discusses the clothing evidence in his footnotes and not in the text of the book itself?

Oh, come on!

VB MAY be a xxxx--I'm still reviewing his book--but he certainly cannot be branded a "xxxx" based on the facts you present, Cliff.

When you're done, tell me what he wrote about the evidence

of the T3 back wound.

If he ignores or mischaracterizes that evidence, then he's lying when he claims

to have thoroughly addressed the case for conspiracy.

If you buy this bait and switch, let me know when you're in the

market for bridges...

Cliff wrote:

This over-hyped propaganda movie will inevitably invite a backlash -- and

that all needs be pointed out is that Bugliosi is a big fat xxxx.

In none of his pages does he address the obvious physical evidence,

the bullet holes in JFK's clothes, contrary to his claims of thoroughness.

The Prosecutor is a xxxx.

Cliff, with all due respect, VB is neither big nor fat and I think it may be unfair to call him a xxxx.

Since Bugliosi acknowledged the problem with the clothing holes

in his CD, how does he justify describing his BOOK as exhaustive

when he knows that his BOOK does not address the single most

important piece of physical evidence in the case?

If you want me to refine the point, okay -- Vince Bugliosi is a skinny Big xxxx!

At one point in his book he accuses Mark Lane if I recall correctly of ignoring evidence thast goes against his theory. Certainly VB does that as well. But if he fails to address an issue, that certainly does not make him a xxxx.

Did Mark Lane claim to cover every angle of the case, as Bugliosi does?

It's Bugliosi's claim of thoroughness that makes a xxxx of him.

I have a good point about an item he does, I believe, ignore. He discusses the Jack Ruby polygraph but he completely ignores the strong criticism of it by the HSCA panel of polygraph experts who, as I recall, found indicia of deceptiveness in at least one of Ruby's denials of participation in a conspiracy--obviously a very important point.

BUT--while your exact words about the holes in JFK's clothing are literally true--they are not in fact discussed on any page of the book itself, VB DOES have a short answer in his Endnotes on the aCD accompanying the book.

So a most important piece of evidence in any forensic investigation, the victim's

clothing, is relegated to the back pages of endnotes on the accompanying CD.

That should tell you a lot about his confidence in dealing with this issue.

Here is what he says about the holes in the clothing:

"A point that conspiracy theorists have raised over and over in their books is that the entrance holes in the president's coat and shirt were more than 2 inches lower in the back than the actual entrance wound in his body. But even if there wasn't an explanation for this, so what?

"The physical evidence doesn't match my claims -- so what?"

So the holes in the clothes match the T3 wound cited in the Death Certificate,

the autopsy face sheet diagram, the FBI autopsy report, the sworn testimony

of a half-dozen Federal agents, and the statements of over a half-dozen medical

witnesses.

At T3 the wound is too low to allow any possibility of the Single Bullet Theory.

Bugliosi practices mendacity when he claims his book is thorough and then

relegates inconvenient physical evidence to the back pages of end-notes

that aren't even in the book.

"Like virtually all criticisms by...conspiracy theorists, it doesn't "go anywhere." The typical critic just points out the discrepancy and then moves on.

This "typical critic" is a fictional construct of Bugliosi's. The holes in the

clothes are the most important pieces of evidence in the mountain of

evidence outlined above.

But the discrepancy would only mean something if one were able to thereby conclude that the president was shot twice in the back, once where we know the entrance wound in the back was, and once below that where the holes in the coat and shirt were.

"But one can't conclude this because there is no evidence of a second entrance wound to the president's back, and no evidence of any holes to the back of the president's coat and shirt other than one to the coat and one to the shirt." -- VB; Page 241 of "RH" Endnotes[/i]

The intellectual dishonesty always gets thick around this subject.

Bugliosi doesn't attempt to establish "where we know the entrance in the

back was," he just assumes the SBT is true and proceeds to rationalize his

circular logic.

Rather than address the issue, he uses it to attack "typical critics."

Typical LN xxxx, Bugliosi.

One may certainly disagree with his response but he did at least "touch on" that issue.

Not in the BOOK.

No where in the BOOK.

And he doesn't address the issue in his CD -- he fobs it off as "so what?"

Of course, there are "CT" Parlor Gamers around here who pull the same

disingenuous move...

America eats its heroes.

This over-hyped propaganda movie will inevitably invite a backlash -- and

that all needs be pointed out is that Bugliosi is a big fat xxxx.

In none of his pages does he address the obvious physical evidence,

the bullet holes in JFK's clothes, contrary to his claims of thoroughness.

The Prosecutor is a xxxx.

1) Willie Rodriguez who I think I've shown to be a xxxx

This is where our discussion ends.

If you are so partial to the man perhaps you'd like to refute the paper I posted here

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...mp;hl=rodriguez

Not a problem.

RODRIGUEZ (9/11/01): "I was in the basement, which is the support floor for the

maintenance company, and we hear like a big rumble. Not like an impact, like a

rumble, like moving furniture in a massive way. And all of sudden we hear another

rumble, and a guy comes running, running into our office, and all of skin was off his

body. All of the skin."

RODRIGUEZ (6/25/06): "As I was talking to a supervisor at 8:46 like chitchatting and

all of a sudden we hear PAAH very strong BOOM!!! An explosion so hard that it pushed

us UPWARDS, UPWARDS!!…The explosion was so hard that all the walls cracked the

false ceiling fell on top of us, the sprinkler system got activated and when I was going

to verbalize it was a generator we hear BOOM! All the way at the top..."

There is no contradiction in these statements. "Not like an impact...Moving furniture

in a massive way" was a succinct description of what he later described in more detail.

Lots of people heard explosions in the basement.

The claim that jet fuel ran all the way down to the basement -- sight unseen

by any of the fireman working in the elevator shafts -- and then exploded (?!)

is absurd.

That you have to bend over backwards to mischaracterize the witness statements

speaks volumes about the intellectual bankruptcy of your Official Faith.

I despise witness bashing, whether its the JFK assassination or 9/11.

I'd only add that he had been in the building during the first bombing so knew exactly what a bomb in the building felt like. Stick that in your pipe and smoke it. Also, anyone watching or listening to him without an 'agenda' can tell the man is honest, decent and not to be taken lightly. Villanize him at your own risk. I think it says a whole lot more about your character, than his.

Thank you, Peter.

I wonder what part of the word -- "massive" -- does Len Colby not get?

1) Willie Rodriguez who I think I've shown to be a xxxx

This is where our discussion ends.

If you are so partial to the man perhaps you'd like to refute the paper I posted here

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...mp;hl=rodriguez

Not a problem.

RODRIGUEZ (9/11/01): "I was in the basement, which is the support floor for the

maintenance company, and we hear like a big rumble. Not like an impact, like a

rumble, like moving furniture in a massive way. And all of sudden we hear another

rumble, and a guy comes running, running into our office, and all of skin was off his

body. All of the skin.”

RODRIGUEZ (6/25/06): “As I was talking to a supervisor at 8:46 like chitchatting and

all of a sudden we hear PAAH very strong BOOM!!! An explosion so hard that it pushed

us UPWARDS, UPWARDS!!…The explosion was so hard that all the walls cracked the

false ceiling fell on top of us, the sprinkler system got activated and when I was going

to verbalize it was a generator we hear BOOM! All the way at the top..."

There is no contradiction in these statements. "Not like an impact...Moving furniture

in a massive way" was a succinct description of what he later described in more detail.

Lots of people heard explosions in the basement.

The claim that jet fuel ran all the way down to the basement -- sight unseen

by any of the fireman working in the elevator shafts -- and then exploded (?!)

is absurd.

That you have to bend over backwards to mischaracterize the witness statements

speaks volumes about the intellectual bankruptcy of your Official Faith.

I despise witness bashing, Len, whether its the JFK assassination or 9/11.

Today it would be almost impossible to pull off a JFK-type assassination

or 9/11-type CD.

Everyone has camera phones.

What is all this WTC discussion doing in the JFK section?

Jack

The two go together like a horse and carriage.

In 1963 the Harriman-Walker-Bush crime family played a key role

in the cover-up of the JFK assassination, and may have had a hand

in the assassination itself.

The ultimate goal of the JFK assassination, I'd speculate, was to facilitate

narcotics/weapons smuggling out of Cuba and SE Asia. Tycoons such as

W. Averell Harriman and Clint Murchison, Jr. -- Harriman with oil drilling

platforms in the Florida Straits, Murchison with his Cuban construction

projects -- may very well have had key roles to play in such black market

operations.

In 2001 the legacy of the Harriman-Walker-Bush Crime Family -- now

commonly known as the Bush Crime Family -- prevented our nation's

air defense system from intercepting hijacked planes. Two members

of this crime family were connected to the firm that ran security at WTC.

The invasions of Afganistan and Iraq have been a boon to the black

markets in guns, oil and heroin.

I don't find any of this coincidental.

1) Willie Rodriguez who I think I've shown to be a xxxx

This is where our discussion ends.

It seems the more you know about the subject the less likely you are to believe CD theories

The growing movement for the truth behind 9/11 puts the lie to that claim, sir.

No the dearth of qualified enginers and eyewitness who say the towers CDed verifies it

Here's transcripts from firemen on the scene:

http://prisonplanet.com/multimedia_priorkn...ghterstape.html

9:48 a.m.

Ladder 15: "Battalion Fifteen to Battalion Seven."

Battalion Seven: "Go Ladder 15."

Ladder 15: "What do you got up there, Chief?"

Battalion Seven Chief: "I'm still in boy stair 74th floor. No smoke or fire problems, walls are breached, so be careful."

9:52 a.m.

Battalion Seven Chief: "Battalion Seven to Battalion Seven Alpha."

"Freddie, come on over. Freddie, come on over by us."

Battalion Seven Chief: "Battalion Seven ... Ladder 15, we've got two isolated pockets of fire. We should be able to knock it down with two lines. Radio that, 78th floor numerous 10-45 Code Ones."

No fire encountered on the 74th floor at 9:48, then two isolated pockets of fire

at that location 4 minutes later.

Should be able to knock it down with two hose lines.

The reference to Morgan Stanley in the transcripts indicates this occurred in

the South Tower.

The South Tower collapsed at free-fall speed at 9:59am.

Now, what did you say about "eyewitnesses"...?

http://www.lera.com/sep11.htm

September the 11th

As the structural engineers of the World Trade Center, the men and women of LERA have a special bond with the buildings. Our Leslie E. Robertson directed the original design. Further, we have provided professional services for the complex continuously for almost forty years, including the reconstruction from the bombing in 1993.

From our office, we watched as the second plane hit the South Tower. As did you, we suffered through the collapse, knowing that thousands of lives were being lost... and we feared for many of our friends, some of whom died in the attack.

We designed the towers to resist the accidental impact of a Boeing 707, perhaps lost in the fog while seeking to land. The impact of the Boeing 767s, commandeered by the terrorists, even though larger and flying much faster, was still unable to bring down the towers. The fire-resistive systems, however, did not and could not have contemplated the subsequent fire fueled by thousands of gallons of jet fuel.

Despite the enormous tragedy and loss, we are thankful that the towers stood as long as they did, allowing so many to evacuate.

My training as a poker dealer enables me to assure everyone this is a bluff.

Since he never contemplated the impact such a fire would have on his massive

steel structures, this makes him less of an expert than our oil rig specialist.

I don’t remember Mr. Pegelow ever challenging the ability of the WTC fires to weaken the trusses, but then again it’s been a while since I read what he said perhaps you can find a relevant quote. Did ever say he had done the analysis for the effect of a petroleum fire on one of his rigs might that responsibility have fallen to someone else? Even if he had done such analysis it would have been for structures totally unlike the Twin Towers. The main problem in them was that strong fires, fueled by burning office contents and ignited by jet fuel, weakened 60 foot long thin trussed whose fire proofing had been damaged /destroyed. Obviously the lead engineer and the construction manager of the WTC are better able to judge what could and could bring down the towers than an engineer who never worked on a building and neither Robertson or Brown give any credence to CD theories. The former was responsible for the towers fireproofing and the later for its instalation

The tri-cores, Len, I asked about the tri-cores: each tower was built around

3 massive steel core structures that simply disappeared in the billowing smoke.

Where was this massive pile of weakened steel, Len?

Since Mr. Robertson "never contemplated" the impact of jet fuel, why should his

expertise on the matter be accepted?

http://www.lera.com/sep11.htm

September the 11th

As the structural engineers of the World Trade Center, the men and women of LERA have a special bond with the buildings. Our Leslie E. Robertson directed the original design. Further, we have provided professional services for the complex continuously for almost forty years, including the reconstruction from the bombing in 1993.

From our office, we watched as the second plane hit the South Tower. As did you, we suffered through the collapse, knowing that thousands of lives were being lost... and we feared for many of our friends, some of whom died in the attack.

We designed the towers to resist the accidental impact of a Boeing 707, perhaps lost in the fog while seeking to land. The impact of the Boeing 767s, commandeered by the terrorists, even though larger and flying much faster, was still unable to bring down the towers. The fire-resistive systems, however, did not and could not have contemplated the subsequent fire fueled by thousands of gallons of jet fuel.

Despite the enormous tragedy and loss, we are thankful that the towers stood as long as they did, allowing so many to evacuate.

My training as a poker dealer enables me to assure everyone this is a bluff.

Since he never contemplated the impact such a fire would have on his massive

steel structures, this makes him less of an expert than our oil rig specialist.

Our (Tink's and mine) view is backed by firefighter who were at the scene and structural engineers who've investigate the collapse.

And yet when pressed you can't answer the simple questions I put to you.

What happened to those massive steel tri-cores, Len?

How does steel drop in free-fall directly into steel and then just disappear?

Tink?

And has it occurred to you that guys whose living might someday

depend on a government contract may have a vested interest in

keeping quiet?

NIST = WC

It seems the more you know about the subject the less likely you are to believe CD theories

The growing movement for the truth behind 9/11 puts the lie to that claim, sir.

I can't think of a better explanation than the one you provided. The call makes no sense to me either.

Bush followed his mentor's orders. Harriman decided (I suspect, and thus speculate)

to cut his losses and push the cover-up away from the Castro-did-it scenario.

And towards a lone Parrott instead.

But what's the point if it's the wrong lone nut?

In apparent anticipation of your question, I amended my last post at

roughly the same time you posted the above.

"If the 'lone nut' scenario didn't hold through the weekend after the assassination,

a right-wing conspiracy was all framed up, Bush's call being part of that."

Or so I speculate.

I can't think of a better explanation than the one you provided. The call makes no sense to me either.

Bush followed his mentor's orders. Harriman decided (I suspect, and thus speculate)

to cut his losses and push the cover-up away from the Castro-did-it scenario.

If the "lone nut" scenario didn't hold through the weekend after the assassination,

a right-wing conspiracy was all framed up, Bush's call being part of that.

I can't wait. Do we get jackets and a secret handshake? Can we schedule breakfast meetings?

And rings! I wanna spooky little pop-open ring!

Cliff, I'm interested to hear the rest of your reasoning as to why DP and ground zero are uniquely connected. I can see the weapons and narcotics connections but not the oil connection insofar as DP is concerned.

Mark, thank you for your kind comments.

I'll be getting into this more in my response to my Brother Charles' bracing

challenge, which I wish to make as thorough as possible, and will take some

time to put together (Brother Drago deserves no less!)

Shorter take: the black markets in guns, oil and drugs have been facilitated

for 80+ years by the Harriman-Walker-Bush Crime Family. I suspect the JFK

assassination and the 9/11 attacks were rooted in the machinations of this

criminal legacy.