Cliff Varnell
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Posts posted by Cliff Varnell
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1 hour ago, Cory Santos said:
Cliff how did you miss telling me about this article that recently came out?
How? You ask how?
1) The subject holds not a scintilla of significance -- a quarter scintilla at best.
2) I didn't want to distract you from the Prime Objective -- canvassing the neighborhood for permission to put up RFKjr lawn signs.
3) Payback for your snub of Faye Dunaway as Mrs. Evelyn Mulwray in your list of great Hollywood actress roles.
Understand? Or is it too tough for you?
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Hollywood’s blackmailer-in-chief: the dirty cop behind Confidential, the tabloid the stars feared
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/films/0/hollywoods-blackmailer-in-chief-dirty-cop-behind-confidential/
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13 minutes ago, Cory Santos said:
Chinatown is good stuff. Hey remember that time you and I had dinner in China town in SF? You ate all that generals chicken then barfed on the corner later. Hilarious.
That had more to do with the magic mushroom chocolate bar I pounded earlier that evening.
I neglected to mention that. You thought the grin on my face was because I was glad to see you, and I didn't want to indicate otherwise.
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12 minutes ago, Cliff Varnell said:
Screenwriter Robert Towne used Otash as his inspiration for Jake Gittes, the Jack Nicholson character in Chinatown.
Forget it, Cory. It's the Ed Forum.
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56 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:
Does Cliff approve the source?
In James Ellroy's hard-boiled masterpiece The Cold Six Thousand, Ellroy fingers Fred Otash as the notorious "Raoul," James Earl Ray's alleged handler.
I have no idea how he made that ID -- but it's a fictional tale, so who knows. Otash appears in three other Ellroy novels I haven't read yet.
Screenwriter Robert Towne used Otash as his inspiration for Jake Gittes, the Jack Nicholson character in Chinatown.
That is the limit of my interest in, or knowledge of, Fred Otash.
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On 3/16/2024 at 12:18 PM, Cliff Varnell said:
You don't?? Good to know. Now I feel free to infuse the rest of them with the finest Hoopa Valley hash oil.
A prediction: on April 20, 2024, the DEA will reschedule cannabis from Schedule I to 3 and the Prez race will be in the bag for Biden.
Taking my victory laps...
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Called it!
US drug control agency will move to reclassify marijuana in a historic shift, AP sources say
https://apnews.com/article/marijuana-biden-dea-criminal-justice-pot-f833a8dae6ceb31a8658a5d65832a3b8
On the Jesse Ventura as VP-USA? The JFK Records Act? thread on March 16 I wrote:
"A prediction: on April 20, 2024, the DEA will reschedule cannabis from Schedule I to 3 and the Prez race will be in the bag for Biden."
This thread is the appropriate place for this, yo...
"
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2 hours ago, Roger Odisio said:
I disagree with your assessment of relations at the time between the SU and Cuba, between Krushchev and Castro, that underlies your comments. The Soviets "got what they wanted out of Cuba " when the US removed the missiles it had in Turkey?
Yes, the removal of Jupiter missiles was a major strategic victory.
2 hours ago, Roger Odisio said:You think that's why put them in Cuba, with nuclear warheads! in the first place?
A major objective, yes. Another objective was to gain advantage in the struggle over Cuban influence with Red China,
WASHINGTON, Jan. 2--Premier Fidel Castro indicated in his speech today that Cuba would steer a middle course "within the socialist camp" between the Soviet Union and Communist China but was leaning toward Peking.
2 hours ago, Roger Odisio said:Have you heard about the Bay of Pigs?
What about it?
2 hours ago, Roger Odisio said:And the constant attempts to kill Castro?
What about it?
2 hours ago, Roger Odisio said:Krushchev and Castro were in constant contact. It was Krushchev who convinced Castro that he could talk to Kennedy, and those talks were just starting when Kennedy was murdered (another reason for the murder). As the mortal threat to Castro from the US continued unabated, Castro was agitating for more protection from the SU.
So? That doesn't mean the Soviets would initiate a nuclear war they couldn't win. The notion is preposterous!
2 hours ago, Roger Odisio said:Cuba was a great prize in the Western Hemisphere for Krushchev.
Castro was closer to Red China.
2 hours ago, Roger Odisio said:Castro was to become an important figure internationally. Krushchev agreed to the missiles hoping they would give Castro some breathing room and be a deterrent to the US.
The Bay of Pigs and the constant attempts on Castro's life should of disabused Khrushchev of such naivete. You seriously think Khrushchev expected Kennedy not to respond to the placement of nukes 90 miles off our shore?
2 hours ago, Roger Odisio said:To resolve the crisis Kennedy realized he had to offer more than just his assurances he would not try to invade Cuba again. Even if sincere, it would not bind future presidents. That's why he agreed to quietly, unannounced, remove the missiles in Turkey, which were of little value to the US anyway.
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6 hours ago, Roger Odisio said:
If the US attacked Cuba and the Soviets responded it would be US starting the war not the Soviets.
In this scenario Castro would have been accused of starting it by whacking Kennedy. The Soviets got what they wanted out of Cuba when the US withdrew missiles from Turkey. Their response would have been diplomatic, railing against American imperialism at the UN. The US could have countered by citing the alleged Oswald meeting with Kostikov in Mexico City.
6 hours ago, Roger Odisio said:Remember what Kennedy said about the missiles placed by the Soviets in Cuba: an attack by Cuba using them would be considered an attack by the Soviet Union on the US. Same principle,
No, the same principle would have been an attack on the USSR from the soil of an American ally. The US bombed the hell out of North Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia and there was never talk of nuclear confrontation over it.
6 hours ago, Roger Odisio said:Gareth Porter is an estimable journalist. Glad to see you reading him. Cliff. But he wasn't advising the government.
Why would Kennedy's advisers think the US didn't enjoy nuclear superiority in 1963?
6 hours ago, Roger Odisio said:In any case, exact parity, if that's what you mean, isn't necessary for starting a nuclear war to be madness. Kennedy was able to get something like 80votes in the Senate to pass the limited nuclear test ban treaty that Fall as a first step to the disarmamnet he sought because people were realizing the MADness.
And surely Khrushchev wasn't crazy enough to initiate a nuclear exchange over a country that wasn't vital to USSR security.
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RO: But do not obscure the fact that the amorphous group that wanted to get rid of Kennedy had several factions. Only some of them thought it was a good idea to use the murder as a pretext to go after Castro, which would have led to a war with the Soviets, who were pledged to respond such an attack, not to mention Kennedy that had given them a no invasion pledge barely one year earlier. </q>
Khrushchev would start a war he couldn't win over Cuba? Nonsense.
According to Gareth Porter's The Perils of Dominance the USSR didn't reach nuclear parity until 1965.
Sandy, it wasn't Harriman who contacted AF1 to inform LBJ the lone gunmen was in custody -- it was McGeorge Bundy.
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1 hour ago, Kevin Balch said:
Why would it be expected that Ivy League adventurers born with a silver spoon in their mouths would be competent at covert and paramilitary operations?
The CIA didn't conduct any successful covert operations under Allen Dulles?
I guess Joe Kennedy and Robert Lovett got worked up over nothing, eh?
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Richard Bissell, Deputy Director for Plans, Yale '31 (turned down Skull & Bones)
Tracy Barnes, Assistant Deputy Director for Plans, Yale '33 (Scroll & Key)
McGeorge Bundy, National Security Advisor, Yale '40 (Skull & Bones)
Either the Yale crew royally screwed the pooch with the Bay of Pigs -- or the long knives were out for Princeton Allen D.
Either way, Dulles never saw it coming.
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In Denial, pg 204: <q>
While purely speculative, any telephone dialog which could have occurred between Bissell and the president would have had to cover some very dicey issues in respect to Kennedy’s orders — including the fact that the complexity of the amphibious landing, the Navy landing craft involved, and the quantity of tanks, trucks and a massive amount of cargo had actually precluded any real chance of completing the landing and withdrawing all ships (including the command LCI’s) by dawn. The true extent of the remaining Cuban air threat would have also had to be disclosed, no doubt raising further questions of the plans for resupply of the beachhead over the longer term, which involved extensive flights out of the Nicaraguan base, something which would almost certainly demonstrate American involvement. The issue of the contingency plans for guerrilla action or even re-landing the force, directed as backup options by the president, might also have been raised by President Kennedy. If that sort of dialog had occurred there is certainly a possibility that the president might have aborted the landing, as he had continually reserved the right to order. At the point in time when Bissell and Cabell determined not to talk to President Kennedy the landing force was still some two to two and a half hours from its scheduled deployment off the transports. </q>
[Ibid, pg 158]
<q>
Based on Kennedy’s directives about lowering the visibility of the landings, Richard Bissell, apparently with Director Dulles’ support, did indeed go back to his military officers and craft a less visible plan for inserting the expeditionary force. In only three days the daylight landing at Trinidad, a town with a port and docks available, and with unencumbered access to the Escambry Mountains, was changed to a night landing which required all men, material, and supplies to be directly on the beaches. To some extent the plan offered more geographic protection for a lodgment given that the beaches were surrounded by swamps, with only a few undeveloped roads offering access to them. However, the location selected moved the force well away from the mountains and effectively eliminated the guerrilla option that President Kennedy still seemed to anticipate. It also made it significantly more difficult for any indigenous fighters to link up with the volunteer force unless they quickly broke out and moved beyond the swamps, something not anticipated in the lodgment plan...
(Ibid, pg 159)
...A very brief Joint Chiefs assessment of the new plan limited itself to declaring that in its essentials it still did appear feasible that a force could be landed and sustained for some limited time, but that the isolated location could well restrict any indigenous support. In turn President Kennedy’s National Security Advisor McGeorge Bundy praised the CIA for the steps towards making the revised plan quiet and less “spectacular.” He also described it as “plausibility Cuban” in its essentials, with no elaboration on that point. To some extent Bundy appears to have fallen back on the standard concept of deniability, which had been in play since the CIA began its covert actions — if Americans are not involved in the combat then its not officially an American intervention. </q>
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On 4/18/2024 at 5:16 PM, Ron Bulman said:
Hi Cliff. I was re reading this thread and had a second thought. When I first read it, I thought the last line referenced JFK. I now wonder given the first line, you weren't saying Bissell and Bundy were sabotaging Dulles were you?
That's what happened, didn't it?
During Eisenhower's second term, Joe Kennedy and Robert Lovett lobbied Ike to fire Dulles.
https://cryptome.org/0001/bruce-lovett.htm#schlesinger
<q>
[T]he increased mingling in the internal affairs of other nations of bright, highly graded young men who must be doing something all the time to justify their reason for being. ... Busy, moneyed and privileged, [the CIA] likes its "King Making." responsibility (the intrigue is fascinating -- considerable self-satisfaction, sometimes with applause, derives from "successes" -- no charge is made for "failures" -- and the whole business is very much simpler than collecting covert intelligence on the USSR through the usual CIA methods!)...
Should not someone, somewhere in an authoritative position in our government on a continuing basis, be . . . calculating . . . the long-range wisdom of activities which have entailed our virtual abandonment of the international "golden rule," and which, if successful to the degree claimed for them, are responsible in a great measure for stirring up the turmoil and raising the doubts about us that exist in many countries of the world today? . . . Where will we be tomorrow?”
</q>
Although the above denunciation of "bright, highly graded young men" was written in 1956, it certainly applied to Richard Bissell, who became CIA Deputy Director for Plans at the beginning of 1959. Bissell pushed for the creation of the ZR/RIFLE assassination squad, and ordered hits on Patrice Lumumba, Rafael Trujillo, and Fidel Castro.
Lovett and Bissell had worked on the Marshall Plan starting in 1948. Both of them worked closely with Averell Harriman (Skull & Bones 1913)
After the 1960 election, Lovett and Joe Kennedy formed JFK's kitchen cabinet. Lovett recommended Dean Rusk for State, C. Douglas Dillon for Treasury, Robert McNamara for Defense and McGeorge Bundy National Security Advisor. Lovett and Bundy's father Harvey were Skull & Bones members who worked closely together at the Department of War during WW2. McGeorge and his brother William were also Skull & Bones. Bissell had been tapped to join S&B but he turned them down.
Did gaining power slacken Bob Lovett and Joe Kennedy's desire to get rid of Allen Dulles? Did Lovett convince his fellow Yalies, Bissell and Bundy, to botch the BOP intentionally?
I can't say as a fact that the BOP failure was planned to provide a rationale for Dulles' dismissal, but in my book that scenario makes as much sense as the incompetence/inertia scenario described by ace BOP historian Larry Hancock (see In Denial: Secret Wars with Air Strikes and Tanks?)
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Happy Let's Get Rid of Allen Dulles Day.
Joe Kennedy soon after the BOP: .
"I know that outfit, and I wouldn't pay them a hundred bucks a week. It's a lucky thing they were found out early."
I don't think luck had anything to do with it.
Intentional sabotage by Richard Bissell and McGeorge Bundy, more like it.
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14 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:
Maybe this would be better:
WATER COOLER
WATER COOLER - MAINSTREAM (For those who disbelieve alternative/MAGA facts.)
Much better. And a water cooler for "Those who believe alternative/MAGA facts."
Works for me. I entertain "alternative" views on a number of subjects, none are MAGA tho. 2 threads cover it.
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I think the Water Cooler needed one thread -- "Free for All."
I think many here find "MAGA" and "Mainstream" pejoratives.
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3 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:
This thread is for my Forum Tips & Tricks. It will gradually fade away from the front pages of the forum.
(This post to be deleted.)
Consider yourself contacted, Sandy. I'd like to delete attachments on the 56 years thread.
Now what?
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24 minutes ago, Kirk Gallaway said:
Cliff, So you want to delete some of your links? I was able to go there and copy links. Go to "Political discussions", you'll see it there.
I don't know if maybe the reason you haven't posted in the water cooler is because it's kind of confusing the way it is now.
I'm trying to correct that and make it easier.
Attachments. There's no edit function in a locked thread.
"For those who believe mainstream contemporary facts." I find that off-putting.
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Because the 56 years thread is locked, I can't edit out attachments. Anyway around this?
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5 hours ago, Kevin Balch said:
Unless the blast is suppressed, once that first shot is made the clock is ticking. Shooters would would have to assume they only have only a few seconds for a kill shot before evasive actions make further shots impossible. The throat shot was what caused Connolly to turn his head to see what was happening so it was obviously not suppressed. If a shot can be precise enough to place a tranquilizer, why not just go for a head shot?
The plotters apparently had their reasons. A first shot-kill shot must not have been 100% guaranteed.
5 hours ago, Kevin Balch said:What locations from the front or side had an unobstructed view long enough to track the target to place such a shot and has this been verified?
My bet is on the Black Dog Man position.
5 hours ago, Kevin Balch said:I realize it’s fictionalized but in “Day of the Jackal”, when the gunsmith asks the Jackal if he is going for a head shot or a body shot, he answers “head shot” and doubts that he will get more than one shot. The same thinking would apply to this situation.
But it didn't since the first shot wasn't a kill shot.
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16 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:
IDK about the extra X-ray.
Wouldn't your proposed scenario require it?
16 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:But more like a 22 long rifle, soft lead, rounded tip that mushrooms on contact with anything. Or a 22 hollow point, which does the same thing, more extensively.
So in this scenario a .22 round ripped a couple inches of trachea, mushroomed, bruised the top of the lung and broke blood vessels, then left a hairline fracture of the right T1 transverse process. That's very little damage, eh?
16 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:Favorite round for the CIA for close work, I've read. Which this would be for some, 20 yards more or less.
What was the purpose of a non-lethal first shot? If they wanted to paralyze the target why not use a blood soluble paralytic and not worry over removing a round?
Brad Pitt, Joyce Carol Oates and the Road to Blonde
in JFK Assassination Debate
Posted · Edited by Cliff Varnell
I care about Marilyn. I just don't care who she slept with.
Because the overthrow of Diem led to the death of millions, including my brother who finally succumbed to the leukemia he contracted from Agent Orange exposure in 'Nam.
Junior probably has pushed Trump to the right on public health issues -- Don Fuhrer vows to abolish the pandemic-response team at the White House in spite of the looming threat from bird flu. Dumbing down to dictatorship...