Cliff Varnell
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Posts posted by Cliff Varnell
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1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:
That's interesting Cliff. But how would Averell Harriman know that certain officials at the CIA had plotted to kill the president? He didn't have the NTK (need to know).
If he ordered the assassination he needed to know.
1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:It could be that Harriman merely worried that the Soviets would be blamed, and that it might lead to nuclear war. And so he tried to nip it in the bud.
How would he know the Soviets were not involved unless he knew who was?
1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:BTW, if Harriman did know about the plot, why didn't he also come up with an excuse for the Cubans? For example, that the Cuban specialists all say that the Cubans weren't behind it.
Oswald didn’t go to Cuba.
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The Tale Told by Two Tapes by Vincent Salandria
<quote on>
[National Security Adviser] McGeorge Bundy was in charge of the [White House] Situation Room and was spending that fateful afternoon receiving phone calls from President Johnson, who was calling from Air Force One when the lone-assassin myth was prematurely given birth. (Bishop, Jim, The Day Kennedy Was Shot, New York & Funk Wagnalls, 1968, p. 154) McGeorge Bundy as the quintessential WASP establishmentarian did not take his orders from the Mafia and/or renegade elements.
<quote off>
The President Has Been Shot, Charles Roberts (p. 141) A reporter for Newsweek, Roberts was on AFI and saw McGeorge Bundy at Andrews Air Force Base, where Air Force One landed.
<quote on>
I remember looking at (McGeorge) Bundy because I was wondering if he had any word of what had happened in the world while we were in transit, whether this assassination was part of a plot. And he told me later that what he reported to the president during that flight back was that the whole world was stunned, but there was no evidence of a conspiracy at all.
<quote off>
Who would have given orders to McGeorge Bundy to repeat the lie that there was no evidence of conspiracy found in Dallas?
Bundy couldn't have made that determination sitting in the Situation Room.
Turns out there was another "quintessential WASP establishmentarian" who turned up telling a great big lie: the #3 man at the State Department, W. Averell Harriman.
The Assassination Tapes, Max Holland, pg 57:
<quote on>
At 6:55 p.m. Johnson has a ten minute meeting with Senator J. William Fulbright and diplomat W. Averell Harriman to discuss possible foreign involvement in the assassination, especially in light of the two-and-a-half-year sojourn of Lee Harvey [in Russia]...Harriman, a U.S. ambassador to Moscow during WWII, is an experienced interpreter of Soviet machinations and offers the president the unanimous view of the U.S. government's top Kremlinologists. None of them believe the Soviets have a hand in the assassination, despite the Oswald association.
<quote off>
A Very Human President, Jack Valenti (1973, p3)
<quote on>
Shortly before 7:00 P.M., I escorted Senator J. William Fulbright, chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, and Ambassador Averell Harriman into the office. I fidgeted outside, in the middle of what would have appeared to be an objective onlooker to be a melange of confusion. No one of the Johnson aides, Marie Fehmer, his secretary; the late Cliff Carter, his chief political agent; Bill Moyers, nor any of the rest, was quite certain of what lay ahead. We were all busy on the phone and trying to assemble what measure of office discipline we could construct.
<quote off>
Spanning the Century: The Life of W. Averell Harriman, by Rudy Abramson, pg 625:
<quote on>
[Harriman] spent the afternoon helping [George] Ball [#2 man at the State Dept], who was, if anyone truly was, running the United States government, since [Dean] Rusk [Secretary of State] and several other Cabinet members were airborne, coming home after turning back from a flight to the Far East. As darkness fell, Averell drove out to Andrews Air Force Base with Ball and Alexis Johnson, joining the official mourning party standing silently on the floodlit ramp as the President's casket was lowered from the rear door of Air Force One.<quote off>
The Wise Men, Walter Isaacson & Evan Thomas, pg. 640:
<quote on>
[The Diem] coup [in South Vietnam] was messy. Diem's body was found riddled with bullets and stab wounds. John Kennedy himself was shot to death three weeks later. Bill Sullivan [Harriman's chief of staff] found Averell Harriman that afternoon sitting on the edge of his chair, in front of a television set, holding his head in his hands.
<quote off>
That Lee Harvey Oswald had been in the Soviet Union was announced on the news at 4:25pm EST. Sundown in Washington DC occurred at 4:50pm EST.
How could Harriman gather "the US government's top Kremlinologists" in such a short period of time? And all of them reached the same snap decision on the basis of next to no information?
In 1963 the top three Kremlinologists were George Kennan, Charles Bohlen, and Harriman himself. According to his biography, Charles Bohlen was traveling in Europe that day; according to his biography, George Kennan spent the day quietly in Princeton with Robert Oppenheimer.
Harriman went out to Andrews around sundown with George Ball and Alexis Johnson -- neither of whom were Kremlinologists.
The idea anyone could draw the snap conclusion of Soviet innocence is absurd -- unless that person knew who pulled off the plot.
Vincent Salandria: "Notes on Lunch with Arlen Specter on January 4, 2012"
<quote on>
I explained [to Specter] that the day after the Kennedy assassination I met with my then brother-in-law, Harold Feldman. We decided that if Oswald was the killer, and if the U.S. government were innocent of any complicity in the assassination, Oswald would live through the weekend. But if he was killed, then we would know that the assassination was a consequence of a high level U.S. government plot.
Harold Feldman and I also concluded that if Oswald was killed by a Jew, it would indicate a high level WASP plot. We further decided that the killing of Oswald would signal that no government investigation could upturn the truth. In that event we as private citizens would have to investigate the assassination to arrive at the historical truth.
<quote off>
Jack Ruby was Jewish.
In 1963 Averell Harriman (Skull & Bones 1913) and McGeorge Bundy (Skull & Bones 1940) were the top two WASPs in the US government.
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1 hour ago, Roger Odisio said:
Russiagate was far more than the lie Hillary concocted at the Dem convention that Russia hacked the DNC server, in order to divert attention from what was in the emails.
I’m aware of what RussiaGate is. You were referring to a period prior to the election and cited a fictional “frenzy”. RussiaGate only made two news cycles over the last five months of the campaign, nothing over the last 70 days.
That’s a frenzy?
The only frenzy prior to the election was the Hillary e-mail story.
1 hour ago, Roger Odisio said:When she lost, the story morphed into all the ways Russia conspired with Trump to steal the election from her, and it lasted for years with the help of media stenographers.
And the unchallenged House testimony of Shawn Henry of Crowdstrike, the company that investigated the hack of DNC e-mails in 2016, in regard to the Russian hacker Fancy Bear.
<q>
MR. SCHIFF: lt provides in the report on 2016, April 22nd, data staged for exfiltration by the Fancy Bear actor.
MR.HENRY: Yes, sir. So that, again, staged for, sure which, I mean, there’s not -- the analogy I used with Mr. Stewart earlier was we don't have video of it happening, but there are indicators that it happened. There are times when we can see data exfiltrated, and we can say conclusively. But in this case, it appears it was set up to be exfiltrated, but we just don't have the evidence that says it actually was. </q>
Russians did indeed hack the DNC in order to “set up” the e-mail exfiltration by non-State actors.
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5 hours ago, Roger Odisio said:
.Needless to say that information was buried, primarily by the frenzy Hillary stirred up about Russiagate. But you can still find it on the internet.
How many times did the Russia-hacked-the-DNC story make the cable news cycle (any story reported and repeated throughout a 9am EST - 9am EST 24 hour cycle) during the 2016 campaign?
Twice: 6/14-15 and 7/24-25.
On October 7, 2016 the Obama Administration formally accused Russia of meddling in the US election. A half hour later the Access Hollywood tape dropped and a half hour after that the Podesta e-mails hit the airwaves.
”RussiaGate” was buried, never made the cable news cycle over the last 70 days of the campaign.
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1 hour ago, Mervyn Hagger said:
Correction: This topic is focused upon the SGA, and not upon "CIA/Cuban activity in Florida post-JFKA".
MH: “5. The entire Florida-based CIA operation vanished.”
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2 hours ago, Mervyn Hagger said:
Clearly this topic, which is focused upon the SGA, has struck a raw nerve in some who worship the memory of the Kennedys as if they were 'gods'. In the previous post the words "I suspect ...." are used. My intention is to post only that which is known and can be both documented and proven, or to raise questions about information whether it can be proven.
Your statement regarding CIA/Cuban activity in Florida post-JFKA is demonstrably false.
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1 hour ago, Gerry Down said:
Where was Helliwell getting the money to finance unofficial operations for Shackley? From drug money? CIA operations tended to have their finances well documented, so not sure how Helliwell could have financed unofficial operations to any great degree.
Drug operations generally are not well documented.
After the JFKA there was more dope than ever to distribute. I strongly suspect Castro got aid from Red China in the form of white powder. I equally suspect, post-JFKA, Castro-Helliwell put anti-Castro Cubans to work moving Castro’s dope — and they stopped trying to whack him.
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From Spartacus:
http://spartacus-educational.com/JFKhelliwell.htm
<quote on>
In 1960 Paul Helliwell was transferred to provide business cover for the CIA’s Cuban operations. According to Peter Dale Scott (The Iran Contra Connection) Helliwell worked with E. Howard Hunt, Mitch WerBell and Lucien Conein on developing relationships with drug-dealing Cuban veterans of the Bay of Pigs invasion. It was during this period that Helliwell met Ted Shackley and Thomas Clines. Helliwell later became CIA paymaster for JM/WAVE. In this way, Shackley was able to finance unofficial CIA operations against Cuba. </q>
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1 hour ago, Mervyn Hagger said:
Cliff, your comment requires further explanation by you since I have not even mentioned the name Paul Helliwell.
Correct me if I’m wrong but wasn’t Paul Helliwell the money man for JMWAVE?
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1 hour ago, Mervyn Hagger said:
I wrote "The entire Florida-based CIA operation vanished."
Paul Helliwell stopped dealing dope?
Since when?
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1 hour ago, Leslie Sharp said:
Who's on First, What's on Second . . . 🙂
To clarify, Cliff, I was agreeing with you that ignoring testimony that doesn't suit a bias while cherry picking testimony to confirm that same bias is ludicrous at this stage.
Excellent clarification, Leslie.
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11 hours ago, Kirk Gallaway said:
Hey Cliff, Rigby actually finds the Hunter Biden lap top story "horrifying".
Imagine how dysfunctional he'd become if he actually lived here and absorbed the myriad of impressions flowing in all the time! *
Our American Exceptional ability to suck attention from abroad is unparalleled!
We win the battle of demoralization without even firing a shot!
*I read an even more horrifying headline for Rigby just today.
Prince Harry and Meghan Markle have been having an unexpectedly hard time in Hollywood!
“Vice-Presidential influence peddling” is a self-canceling phrase.
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1 hour ago, Anthony Thorne said:
I've never suggested that they don't.
I’m curious how that would have worked with UM. Where’s the shooter he was spotting for in this scenario?
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1 hour ago, Anthony Thorne said:
I have no idea but the latter seems marginally more likely than the former.
A spotter works with a shooter, no?
1 hour ago, Anthony Thorne said:He's a guy with an umbrella, so I have no idea what anyone would charge him with. But anyway, which is more suspicious? A guy running away from the plaza at top speed, or someone sitting there watching everything?
Black Dog Man seems to have managed it. Rosemary Willis pointed out this suspicious behavior, not that anything came of it.
1 hour ago, Anthony Thorne said:I don't want to dismiss your questions though as I've yet to read a totally convincing explanation as to what UM was doing, and every explanation seems a halfway possible guess.
In 2011 I attended a large Occupy Oakland protest. On my way back to my car I passed a line of TV news vans. I stopped and put my head inside an open door of a Fox News rig. I intoned: “Something is happening here but you don’t know what it is, do you, Mr. Jones?” I have no idea if there was anyone in the front of the van; or know if anyone got the Dylan reference. Didn’t matter — I was mightily pleased with myself. What may have appeared as an empty gesture was satisfying to me. I have no reason to conclude Witt didn’t make a similar statement with his umbrella.
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1 hour ago, Mervyn Hagger said:
Cliff, please read what I have written, not what you think I have written.
I wasn’t responding to you.
1 hour ago, Mervyn Hagger said:My comments have a lot of questions supported by pictures that I took the time to assemble about the 1963 event.
I have not 'bashed' anyone except a Johnny-come-lately prankster who claimed to be the person who was in the 1963 photograph.
I was responding to Leslie’s comment about Rosemary Willis.
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1 hour ago, Leslie Sharp said:
Precisely!
And what was UM’s role? Shooter? Spotter? Why would a perp sit down at the scene of the crime of instead of getting out of there ASAP?
If you’re going to bash a witness as important as Rosemary Willis shouldn’t you have a cogent argument for her involvement?
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1 hour ago, Leslie Sharp said:
Witt wasn't Umbrella Man but years later he was persuaded to claim that he was.
So was 10-year old Rosemary Willis “in” on the plot?
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8 hours ago, Paul Brancato said:
Did you once think umbrella man was firing a flechette?
No, not at all.
8 hours ago, Paul Brancato said:Or was that someone else with a high tech military weapon?
Black Dog Man. The HSCA identified “a very distinct straight line feature...in the region of his hands”. Rosemary Willis identified him as a “conspicuous person” who happened to “disappear the next instant.”
8 hours ago, Paul Brancato said:of course Leslie’s question ‘why’ did he come forward at that time is a good one.
in the excerpts posted here the idea that Mr Witt was intending a symbolic act (Chamberlain?) doesn’t come from him. Could someone post a link to the complete testimony?https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/jfkinfo2/jfk4/witt.htm
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1 hour ago, Leslie Sharp said:
@Cliff VarnellLololol. Free Witt indeed.
So, are you convinced Witt was UM?He has a corroborating witness, that’s for sure. Yeah.
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1 hour ago, Leslie Sharp said:
Has it been determined why Baxter's employee at Rio Grande Louis Steven Witt waited years to come forward to claim that he walked all the way from Field St., carrying an umbrella and by-passing numerous opportunities along the way only to settle on 411 Elm to harass the president's motorcade?
Witt’s HSCA testimony (emphasis added):
Mr. GENZMAN. What did you do when you arrived at Elm Street?
Mr. WITT. Well, I ended up turning left and going down into what is known as Dealey Plaza. The only reason I can think that I ended up down there was possibly I looked down there and saw an area where there were not a large group of people. There were people in that area but there was also in this area which later became known as the grassy knoll, there was no one out in that area in any great number.
Mr. GENZMAN. What did you do when you reached the grassy knoll?
Mr. WITT. I think I went sort of maybe halfway up the grassy area, somewhere in that vicinity. I am pretty sure I sat down.
Mr. GENZMAN. Were you waiting for the motorcade?
Mr. WITT. Yes.
Mr. GENZMAN. Do you recall how long you waited?
Mr. WITT. I really couldn't say. I don't think I was there very long. Since I was not that all-fired determined to carry out what I set out to do, I am sure I didn't wait a great length of time.
Mr. GENZMAN. Did the motorcade come soon thereafter?
Mr. WITT. Yes, it apparently did.
Mr. GENZMAN. What did you do when you saw the motorcade coming into the area?
Mr. WITT. Well, as I recall, the motorcade had already made the turn and was coming down Elm Street going west on Elm before I became aware it was there, and it would have been from a straight- line position off to my left about like this [indicating] when I saw it.
Mr. GENZMAN. What did you do when you saw it approaching you?
Mr. WITT. I think I got up and started fiddling with that umbrella trying to get it open, and at the same time I was walking forward, walking toward the street.
Mr. GENZMAN. You testified that you were opening the umbrella to use it as a symbol hoping to catch the President's eye?
Mr. WITT. Yes, sir. </q>HSCA Report (emphasis added)
Rosemary Willis...noticed two persons who looked "conspicuous." One was a man near the curb holding an umbrella, who appeared to be more concerned with opening or closing the umbrella than dropping to the ground like everyone else at the time of the shots. </q>
Free Louis Witt!
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On 7/29/2023 at 2:48 AM, Paul Rigby said:July 27, 2023
Judge Rejects Hunter Biden's Dirty Plea Deal
https://www.moonofalabama.org/2023/07/judge-rejects-hunter-bidens-dirty-plea-deal.html#more
Yesterday Delaware US District Judge Maryellen Noreika nixed a plea deal negotiated between Hunter Biden attorney Chris Clark and the prosecutor team from Joe Biden's Department of Justice.
Disingenuous.
The prosecutor team was from the Trump Department of Justice.
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3 hours ago, W. Niederhut said:
Steve,
On the subject of the revenge motive, (and Nazi bankers) I'm reminded of Prescott Bush reportedly saying that he "would never forgive" JFK for what he had done to Allen Dulles.
Prescott Bush (Skull & Bones, Brown Brothers Harriman partner) was a key ally of Allen Dulles.
So was Averell Harriman (Skull & Bones, Brown Brothers Harriman honcho).
Robert Lovett (Skull & Bones, Brown Brothers Harriman partner) tried to get Ike to fire Dulles.
I find this consistent with the speculation that Dulles was most useful to a Harriman/Bush enterprise Lovett knew nothing about.
My bet is on a struggle for control of international narcotics trafficking.
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In Denial, pg 158:
<quote on, emphasis added>
Based on Kennedy’s directives about lowering the visibility of the landings, Richard Bissell, apparently with Director Dulles’ support, did indeed go back to his military officers and craft a less visible plan for inserting the expeditionary force. In only three days the daylight landing at Trinidad, a town with a port and docks available, and with unemcumbered access to the Escambray Mountains, was changed to a night landing which required all men, material, and supplies to be landed directly on the beaches. To some extent the plan offered more geographic protection for a lodgment given that the beaches were surrounded by swamps, with only a few undeveloped roads offering access to them. However, the location selected moved the force well away from the mountains and effectively eliminated the guerrilla option that President Kennedy still seemed to anticipate. It also made it significantly more difficult for any indigenous fighters to link up with the volunteer force unless they quickly broke out and moved beyond the swamps, something not anticipated in the lodgment plan...
(ibid, pg 159)
...A very brief Joint Chiefs assessment of the new plan limited itself to declaring that in its essentials it still did appear feasible that a force could be landed and sustained for some limited time, but that the isolated location could well restrict any indigenous support. In turn President Kennedy’s National Security Advisor McGeorge Bundy praised the CIA for the steps towards making the revised plan quiet and less “spectacular.” He also described it as “plausibility Cuban” in its essentials, with no elaboration on that point. To some extent Bundy appears to have fallen back on the standard concept of deniability, which had been in play since the CIA began its covert actions — if Americans are not involved in the combat then its not officially an American intervention. </q>
So it was Elite Yalie Dick Bissell who came up with the bright idea to land where President Kennedy’s goal to incite a popular counter-insurgency would be abandoned. The Joint Chiefs saw the flaw in the plan but communicated their reservation to Kennedy by giving the operation a 50/50 chance when the odds were far, far longer. Elite Yalie Mac Bundy was a big booster of the Zapata Plan.
In the Incompetence/Inertia Scenario there were major lapses in judgment by the CIA, the Pentagon, the National Security Council, the State Dept. and the White House.
In the Get Dulles Scenario Bissell (protege of Uber-Elite Yalie Harriman) and Bundy (assigned his position by Uber-Elite Yalie Lovett) sandbagged Kennedy and Dulles both.
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On the day before the BOP landing, JFK put the kibosh on US air strikes in support. Harriman-protege Bissell bitched about it to Lovett-selected Sec of State Rusk. Rusk offered to connect Bissell directly to the Boss.
In Denial, pg 204:
While purely speculative, any telephone dialog which could have occurred between Bissell and the president would have had to cover some very dicey issues in respect to Kennedy’s orders — including the fact that the complexity of the amphibious landing, the Navy landing craft involved, and the quantity of tanks, trucks and a massive amount of cargo had actually precluded any real chance of completing the landing and withdrawing all ships (including the command LCI’s) by dawn. The true extent of the remaining Cuban air threat would have also had to be disclosed, no doubt raising further questions of the plans for resupply of the beachhead over the longer term, which involved extensive flights out of the Nicaraguan base, something which would almost certainly demonstrate American involvement. The issue of the contingency plans for guerrilla action or even re-landing the force, directed as backup options by the president, might also have been raised by President Kennedy. If that sort of dialog had occurred there is certainly a possibility that the president might have aborted the landing, as he had continually reserved the right to order. At the point in time when Bissell and Cabell determined not to talk to President Kennedy the landing force was still some two to two and a half hours from its scheduled deployment off the transports. </q>
Looks like it was a lot more important for Zapata to proceed than succeed.
For Bissell, anyway.
And Joe Kennedy? “Lucky thing they were found out early.”
Where was the pushback?
in JFK Assassination Debate
Posted · Edited by Cliff Varnell
What’s reckless about it? He told the truth — the Soviets weren’t involved. He lied about consulting other Kremlinologists.
We do know what — the United States had first strike nuke dominance over the Soviets until 1965 (see The Perils of Dominance by Gareth Porter.)
In this scenario Averell Harriman unilaterally on the spot decided he had to protect the entire US government — the entire world! — from suspecting the Soviets even though he had no idea whether they were involved or not.
He risked committing treason?
This is the same horsesht LBJ fed Earl Warren.