Cliff Varnell

Another flaw in Pat’s analyses: he cites medical material not prepared according to autopsy protocol — the Fox 5 Back of the Head photo, the back wound locations in the final autopsy report, and the measurements written in pen on the autopsy face sheet all sport multiple violations of medical protocol.

1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said:

 Pat Speer devoted a lot of his website and serious research to the JFK head wounds. 

I find his arguments re JFK wounds to be solid. 

But yours are more entertaining. 

 

 

So you think it’s possible for 4+ inches of fabric to bunch up above the top of the back without pushing up on the jacket collar just above the base of the neck?

That strikes you as “serious”?

From Larry Hancock's Someone Would Have Talked, pg 496:

<quote on>

[Former CIA employee Gary] Underhill's concern was that he had become aware of a "clique" within the CIA--a clique dealing with weapons and gun-running and making money. These individuals had Far Eastern connections, narcotics was mentioned, supposedly the clique was manipulating political intrigues to serve their own ends. Underhill believed that these individuals had been involved with JFK's murder; he felt that JFK had become aware of their dealings and
was about to move against them in some fashion. He also believed that members of the clique knew that Underhill was aware of their dealings and that his own life could well be in jeopardy.
<quote off>

I’m looking at people who held sway in Laos at various times.  Carl Jenkins, Paul Helliwell...and W. Averell Harriman.

1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Yes, Finck was a peacetime military autopsy guy for three years in Germany. He said he participated in "many" autopsies involving missile wounds. That could be four or five. Maybe it was 10. I would not call that experienced.

It must be inconvenient to your pet theories.

1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Finck seemed the best of the lot, as Hume and Boswell were actually administrators. Who knows what these guys missed? My guess is certain pathologists in Detroit or Los Angeles see hundreds of gunshots in their careers. That is experienced.  

By all means make stuff up.

1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Finck did testify at the Garrison trial. He did not say he thought an ice-bullet had been used on JFK, as I recall. 

You are among the group dead-certain JFK was shot from the front.

Excellent researcher Pat Speer and others are just as certain as you JFK was only shot from the rear. 

Pat Speer is a nice guy who doesn’t understand where the back wound was.

1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said:

It is remarkable how certain some JFKA researchers are---it is almost as if a certain rigid type takes an interest in the JFKA. 

Here you go — gotta make it personal...

These people of whom you speak absolutely MUST rely on the following scenario regarding the crucial physical evidence:

In order to have a wound at T1 — the top of the back — 2+ inches of both JFK’s shirt and jacket had to elevate entirely above T1 without pushing up on the jacket collar, which Dealey Plaza photos show in a normal position just above the base of the neck.

This scenario is idiotic.

1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Really? You are not, say, 90% certain JFK was shot from the front? You are at 100%?

I’m 100% certain JFK’s clothing didn’t move in a manner you could only see on really clean acid.

1 hour ago, Michael Crane said:

Well,that is a terrific description (thank you for that) Now I just need to learn more anatomy.

A certain amount of medical evidence study is a must.

2 types of JFK medical evidence — material prepared according to proper autopsy protocol — and material that violated protocol.

Burkley’s death certificate and the part of the autopsy face sheet filled out in pencil both follow protocol.  

The autopsy photos, the final autopsy report, and the measurements written in pen on the face sheet violated multiple protocols.

1 hour ago, Michael Crane said:

I must admit that I am bankrupt when it comes to what angle the bullet entered JFK's throat & which direction it traveled.

Here’s the HSCA analysis of the x-ray:

Evaluation of the pre-autopsy film shows that there is some subcutaneous or interstitial air overlying the right C7 and T1 transverse processes. There is disruption of the integrity of the transverse process of T1, which, in comparison with its mate on the opposite side and also with the previously taken film, mentioned above, indicates that there has been a fracture in that area. There is some soft tissue density overlying the apex of the right lung which may be hematoma in that region or other soft tissue swelling.

Evaluation of the post-autopsy film shows that there is subcutaneous or interstitial air overlying C7 and T1. The same disruption of T1 right transverse process is still present.

On the film of the right side, taken post-autopsy, there are two small metallic densities in the region of the C7 right transverse process. These densities are felt to be artifact, partly because of their marked density, because there is a similar artifact overlying the body of C7, and because these metallic-like densities were not present on the previous, pre-autopsy film. Therefore, I assume that these are screen artifacts from debris present in the cassette at the time that this film was exposed. 

1 hour ago, Michael Crane said:

Cliff,

What damage was described to JFK's throat?

A shot from Umbrella Man would seem like all of the damage would be to the left side of JFK's throat.

Do you happen to know if there was any damage to the left side of JFK's throat?

When I say damage...I'm talking about after the bullet entered.

According to the x-ray there burst blood vessels, a hairline fracture of the right T1 transverse process, and an air pocket overlaying C7 and T1.  

1 hour ago, Michael Crane said:

I've said all along that I will offer an opinion.

My opinion is that JFK was not paralyzed from anything.If anything he was in shock.

Jackie K’s WC (emphasis added)

Mrs. KENNEDY. No; I was looking this way, to the left, and I heard these terrible noises. You know. And my husband never made any sound. So I turned to the right. And all I remember is seeing my husband, he had this sort of quizzical look on his face, and his hand was up, it must have been his left hand. And just as I turned and looked at him, I could see a piece of his skull and I remember it was flesh colored. I remember thinking he just looked as if he had a slight headache. And I just remember seeing that. No blood or anything. </q>

1 hour ago, Michael Crane said:

I don't think the angle from Umbrella Man lines up to the throat.

Not at all, agreed.

1 hour ago, Michael Crane said:

While my opinion probably isn't a good one...I believe the throat shot came from the South Knoll near the overpass.

It’s a reasonable possibility.

I’m looking at shot from Black Dog Man.  An HSCA analysis of Dealey photos mentioned a “straight-line feature” in the area of his hands.  Rosemary Willis said BDM was. “conspicuous...disappeared in an instant.”

1 hour ago, Michael Crane said:

As for the back shot...I think it was removed because it did not come from a Mannlicher Carcano rifle.

 

We’re still left with the question — what kind of firearm leaves a shallow wound in soft tissue?

Uhttp://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/church/reports/vol1/pdf/ChurchV1_6_Senseney.pdf

<quote on, emphasis added>

Senseney: And the only thing that I can say is, I just have to suppose that, having been told to maintain the sort of show and tell display of hardware that we had on sort of stockpile for them, these were not items that could be used. They were display tems like you would see in a museum, and they used those to show to the agents as well as to the FBI, to acquaint them with possible ways that other people could attack our own people. (pg 163)

Baker: ...There are about 60 agencies of Government that do either intelligence or law enforcement work.

Senseney: I am sure most all of those knew of what we were doing; yes...

...The FBI never used anything. They were only shown so they could be aware of what might be brought into the country.

(pg 166)

<quote off>

The FBI was primed to blame all-hole/no-metal wounds on foreign perps.

The fruits of MKNAOMI?

May 8, 1963.

Hue, South Vietnam.

Buddhist protesters crowded around a radio station when two explosions killed eight people.

The Catholic Diem regime blamed the Viet Cong; the Buddhists.blamed Diem.

From JFK and the Unspeakable, James Douglass pgs 130-1:

<quote on, emphasis added>

Dr. Le Khac Quyen, the hospital director at Hue, said after examining the victim's bodies that he had never seen such
injuries. The bodies had been decapitated.  He found no metal in the corpses, only holes. There were no wounds below the chest. In his official finding, Dr. Quyen ruled that "the death of the people was caused by an explosion which took place in mid-air," blowing off their heads and mutilating their bodies...

...In May 1963, Diem's younger brother, Ngo Dinh Can, who ruled Hue, thought from the very beginning that the Viet Cong had nothing to do with the explosions at the radio station. According to an investigation carried out by the Catholic newspaper, Hoa Binh, Ngo Dinh Can and his advisers were "convinced the explosions had to be the work of an American agent who wanted to make trouble for Diem." In 1970 Hoa Binh located such a man, a Captain Scott, who in later years became a U.S. military adviser in the Mekong Delta. Scott had come to Hue from Da Nang on May 7, 1963. He admitted he was the American agent responsible for the bombing at the radio station the next day. He said he used "an explosive that was still
secret and known only to certain people at the Central Intelligence Agency, a charge no larger than a matchbox with a timing device."

<quote off>

Larry Hancock’s NEXUS, pg 36

<quote on, emphasis in the original>

Confirmation of the MKNAOMI project was revealed in 1977, when Carter administration Defense Secretary Brown requested an internal review of CIA projects which had involved the Department of Defense. The Department of Defense's legal counsel conducted the investigation and among other things reported back that MKNAOMI had begun in the early 1950's and was "intended to stockpile severely incapacitating and lethal materials and to develop gadgetry for dissemination of these materials."

A June 29, 1975 CIA memorandum has also been located which documents the SOD/CIA relationship and confirms that no written records were kept; management was by verbal instruction and "human continuity." The memo refers to "swarms of project requests" and cites examples of suicide pills, chemicals to anesthetize occupants to facilitate building entries, "L-pills" and aphrodisiacs for operational use. The memo notes "some requests for support approved by the CIA had apparently involved assassination."

<quote off>

From autopsy-attendee FBI SA Francis O'Neill's sworn affidavit for the HSCA:

<quote on>

Some discussion did occur concerning the disintegration of the bullet. A general feeling existed that a soft-nosed bullet struck JFK. There was discussion concerning the back wound that the bullet could have been a "plastic" type or an "Ice" [sic] bullet, one which dissolves after contact.<quote off>

From autopsy-attendee FBI SA James Sibert's sworn affidavit for the HSCA:

<quote on>

The doctors also discussed a possible deflection of the bullet in the body caused by striking bone. Consideration was also given to a type of bullet which fragments completely.... Following discussion among the doctors relating to the back injury, I left the autopsy room to call the FBI Laboratory and spoke with Agent Chuch [sic] Killion. I asked if he could furnish any information regarding a type of bullet that would almost completely fragmentize (sic).</q>

1 hour ago, Chris Barnard said:

This is done. You can’t even answer straight questions. 68 years old and behaving like a child. Just read back through the last few replies of yours. 🙈

It’s impossible for you to engage in a discussion without getting nasty.

Seek help.

1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said:

It has been years since I looked at the autopsy. My sentiment then was Finch was called in late, did what he could do under the chaotic ad controlled circumstances, and then more or less never talked about the autopsy much afterwards, and then in an anodyne manner. 

He testified st the Clay Shaw trial.

1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said:

 

Some people have said something about a JFK back muscle moving back into place, thus blocking the wound probe.

“Some people” say a lot of things.

1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Is every bullet path subject to probing by someone with limited experience? I don't know. 

Finck had limited experience?  Why, because “many” means only three?

1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said:

You realize there are people who state authoritatively JFK was shot from the front without the slight doubt, and then others who declare JFK was shot from the rear, with 99.99% certainty (and that is just in the CT'er community).

There is no doubt JFK was shot from the front.

1 hour ago, Chris Barnard said:

You're going to prison or getting executed, regardless of whether it's JFK, De Gaulle or the Sultan or Oman. The reality is the same. You're so fuct. 

 

 

Ok. Let's get something straight that you are ignoring. I am asking YOU what you think happened to JFK, specifically. Can you answer?

I think the Autopsists diagnosis is highly likely.  But it isn’t *my* idea.

1 hour ago, Chris Barnard said:

What's that gotta do with the price of fish? 

The authorities could ignore anything that didn’t fit their narrative.

1 hour ago, Chris Barnard said:

Pull yourself together man. I have just pointed out that no autopsy doc is going to call it a heart attack when someone has a hole in them with blood seeping out.

And how many autopsies have you performed?

1 hour ago, Chris Barnard said:

They're going to want to know how the person died.

Sure.  He died of a heart attack.

1 hour ago, Chris Barnard said:

 

Logically, the hole in the body will be the first port of call to arouse suspicion.

Suspicion of whom?

1 hour ago, Chris Barnard said:

Ah ok. Its special because its a US president which they may well despise or not give a toss about. 🙂 Talk about clutching at straws. 

...Excuse me?  You think shooting at a US President — knowing it’s death if it goes sideways — isn’t going to make a shooter nervous?

1 hour ago, Chris Barnard said:

Lets get this straight. You think it shellfish toxin was used on JFK? Or something else?

For at least the second time — that’s what the autopsists thought.

1 hour ago, Chris Barnard said:

It did. 

Which J Edgar Hoover never acknowledged.

1 hour ago, Chris Barnard said:

Mandatory autopsy in Texas, whats this hole with blood seeping out. Explain that. 

Who is supposed to do the explaining?

1 hour ago, Chris Barnard said:

Did Yarborough & Connally duck immediately? Our purple heart, captain on PT109 was on a drive, waving at spectators. Do you really think he was thinking about anything other than what had just hit him in the throat and breathing/choking? You can source any number of medical papers explaining 'shock' or the human 'freeze' mechanism. Think about it. 

 

 

It's only 100 yards from the South Knoll. All other suggested firing locations are closer or similar distances. The record distance for a sniper shot is 3871 yards. The point is, it's child's play in terms of distance for a kill shot. Even if they fail, they blame Cuba or communists and still get their invasion of Cuba as a result.

Or the gallows.  These snipers never shot at a US President before.  Gonna bet your life on possibly nervous shooters?

1 hour ago, Chris Barnard said:

Maybe they get a shaken President who changes his policy direction. After all, it's traumatic having people shoot you. 

You'd suggest that an ice bullet

No, this is what the doctors suggested.

1 hour ago, Chris Barnard said:

was used and suggest that the first shot might only wing JFK, and he hits the deck. What if your ice bullet misses JFK and hits a civilian?

What if a standard round hits a civilian?

1 hour ago, Chris Barnard said:

 

 

Now you've got a dead or paralysed person whose body will be dealt with at Parkland, not Bethesda, in accordance with state law, and no bullet. Good luck explaining that. 

Explaining what?  Guy has a heart attack.  Happens.

1 hour ago, Chris Barnard said:

Serious questions:

How are you keeping the ice bullets cool before the shoot out? Do you take your Yeti cooler? 

It wasn’t an actual ice bullet.  Read the article I posted at the top.

1 hour ago, Chris Barnard said:

How quickly are they effective, and how much of a dose do you need for them to be instantly effective in terms of paralysis? 
 

Read up:

Charles Senseney http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/church/reports/vol1/pdf/ChurchV1_6_Senseney.pdf

DCI William Colby http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/church/reports/vol1/pdf/ChurchV1_1_Colby.pdf

1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Like I said, you may be right.

The autopsy, from what I have read was, chaotic and rushed and amateurish.  High ranking military officers shouting to bring this or that action to a close. I mean, why even have Humes and Boswell there? 

They stopped Humes from probing the back wound, but not Finck..

1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said:

You may be correct sir on Finck, although the word "many" pertaining to missile wounds, might mean more than three. That was peacetime (1955-58) in Germany btw. Who was getting shot dead? 

 Do you have any specific reasons to throw shade at Finck’s testimony?  

1 hour ago, Chris Barnard said:

Lets see how you behave with a bullet in your neck. I’d expect him to be choking or in shock, Cliff. The Trachea is very close to the vocal chords. 
 

It may be helpful to understand the instinctive mechanisms of the body, one of them is “freeze”. 

 

Wouldn’t the instinctive mechanism of a man with military training be — “Duck!”

Wouldn’t the plotters have to take into account the possibility the first shot only wings JFK and he hits the deck?

1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said:

You may be right. 

IMHO, a bullet struck JFK and likely exited from his throat. 

The bullets holes in the clothes are 4 inches below the bottoms of the collars.  How the round get out of his throat?

Oh!  I forgot to tell ya!  When I got to the autopsy I managed to slip some dynamite Company LSD into everyone’’s drink and they hallucinated the back wound probe.

1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said:

However, that bullet did not go on to strike JBC.

JBC said, on the official record twice, he was pushed forward by the bullet that struck him. 

That happens ~Z295. JFK is then shot in the head at Z313. About one second later, and maybe less. 

The simple math is, that there were at least two shooters on 11/22, or perhaps one armed with a semi-automatic. 

I do not rule your dissipating bullet theory out. People act in unaccountable ways. Maybe such exotic weaponry was used on JFK. The autopsy did not look for poisons, as I recall. 

They wouldn’t have found any.

1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said:

But it may also be JFK was shot by Cuban exiles, CIA-assets who had no access to fancy weaponry, followed by a restricted, rushed and amateurish autopsy. 

You continue to discount Dr. Finck.  What was rushed about it?

1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Interesting tidbit: There are no photos of LHO anywhere after the JFKA. I suspect he was on the 6th floor, then went to the 2nd floor.

He told FBI SA Hosty he went outside to watch.  There appears to be a figure with a receding hairline standing in front of the TSBD doorway.

1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said:

But even with numerous photos of the TSBD area after the JFKA, not one has emerged of LHO.  The guy becomes invisible. 

PS How much experience did even Finck have explicitly with gunshots? 

From the WC testimony:

Colonel Finck. From 1955 to 1958 I performed approximately 200 autopsies, many of them pertaining to trauma including missile wounds, stationed at Frankfurt, Germany as pathologist of the United States Army Hospital in Frankfurt, Germany

4 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

The back wound was probed...by amateurs.

Finck wasn’t an amateur.

4 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

If the bullet had left the body, of course that would not show up in an x-ray. 

But an exit wound would show up on the body, wouldn’t it?

4 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

As I recall, Hume stuck his finger into the back wound, and noted a downward angle of 60 degrees. Although since Hume did not indicate if the acute angle was from the front or back of the body...I have never figured out what he really meant. 

Finck did a proper instrument probing and declared there was no exit.

4 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Bullets can make sharp turns inside of bodies due to varying viscosities.

All within an inch or two?

4 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

A puzzle to be sure.

A challenge for Mr. Q! 

JFK appeared to be paralyzed after the first shot.

Occam’s Razor — what’s the simplest explanation for someone acting paralyzed?

They *are* paralyzed.

1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said:

To the background music of "Goldfinger"....

Perhaps you are right Cliff. 

The CIA used dissipating and poisoned bullets in the JFKA.

Or...the autopsy was conducted by bullied and time-harried amateurs, who failed to trace the bullet's pathway from back to front through JFK.  

The back wound was probed.  X-rays were taken.  No bullets were recovered.

1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Certainly, I am not a Dr. No on your theories. 

You have raised a scenario equal to "Thunderball," and I admire the effort. 

Maybe you are correct, sir. 

That’s what they told me when I boarded the flight back to the Bay. 

2 hours ago, Evan Marshall said:

I did two sperate tours in Detroit Homicide and an old timer there told me to remember Occam's Razor and the longer I was there the more relevant it became. Attended several hundred autopsies and bullets would show up in the strangest place and some penetrated far deeper than expected and others underpenetrated. I think that we must avoid the paralysis of analysis.

Did the underpenetrations occur in soft tissue?

Do bullets fall out of such shallow wounds?

It’s fair to say we must avoid paralysis, but surely we must not avoid the facts.  There were no bullets recovered from the back and throat wounds.  Evan, have you ever seen entrance wounds with no exits and no bullets?

2 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Endlessly curious.

OK, let's humor Cliff V. and agree that the shot to JFK's back was a dissipating bullet of some sort, undetectable. 

That was the speculation of the autopsists the night of the autopsy.

A lot of people insist on attributing this scenario to me personally.

As well they should — on the afternoon of 11/22/63, right after my third grade class at McKinley Elementary School in Petaluma CA was sent home, a limo appeared outside my folks’ house.  The US Government needed me.  I was whisked to the airport and flown to DC.  

I got to the autopsy just as it began.  I pointed out to Humes & Co that JFK had a shallow wound in the soft tissue of his back.  Then I whispered, “Ice bullet?”

The rest is history.

2 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

That still leaves the shot to the throat---where is the exit? Two dissipating bullets? 

No sht Sherlock.

2 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

If the object is murder JFK, why these odd bullets?

Throat shot induced paralysis and the back shot was a toxin in case the conventional rifle shots missed.

2 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Unregistered, throw-away weapons were easily had.

LHO literally had to order his rifle by mail, and then leave it behind at the murder scene for it to be traced.

Oswald didn’t leave a weapon behind.  He said he was out front watching the motorcade.

2 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

I suspect most wanna-be assassins would buy a weapon for cash anywhere, perhaps while wearing sunglasses and wig, and then throw it away post-JFKA.

But I like the Ian Fleming-ish angle of dissipating bullets. 

The doctors took the possibility seriously, the CIA took the technology seriously, and a bunch of JFK hobbyists think it’s a big joke.

So what was he shot in the back with, Champ, a pellet gun?  Low power bow and target practice arrows?

Thrill us with your acumen, Ben.