Myra Bronstein

Wow J. Ray. That is beyond description. Thank you for the link. I wonder if they performed that very song for President Kennedy. On edit: Whoops, guess not. It was written in 1972. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_The_Band_...altzing_Matilda Assuming this isn't CIA disinformation...

Boffo post Mark.

Duly noted James. We're taking on the Big Bad. Do you have any details on his mysterious death?

Thank you SO much for posting this Phil.

No, we do not know that. In my opinion the same group who killed JFK, RFK and MLK also murdered Kopechne. Although Ted Kennedy was allowed to live, his presidential ambitions were dead. Tim, are you unaware of the mysterious 1964 plane crash that killed two and almost killed Ted Kennedy, or did you forget? http://cgi.ebay.com/June-20-1964-Ted-Kenne...9QQcmdZViewItem Apparently even the Big Bad isn't brazen enough to try to kill the same man twice in a few years after killing his two brothers. They opted to neutralize him by framing him.

Very good points. It would be very difficult to agree on a message and wording. That's a fact. My concern about selling something is that we could end up being dismissed as people out to make a buck. Furthermore, this method--while more contemporary than a newspaper ad--requires that the audience take action to get the information we're so eager for them to have. They'd either have to attend a conference or buy a DVD. Let's assume our target audience doesn't care at this point about the JFK assassination and considers it ancient history. What would motivate them to attend the conference or buy the DVD? What about a combination of an ad and a seminar and posting it on YouTube? In other words, all of the above? Though, again, I feel we must avoid the perception that we're we are out to make a buck off President Kennedy's murder. Whatever we end up doing we should utilize YouTube to the max.

I think the ad should be all about Ford... Ok, for real, I think the ad should start with the conclusion that the gov't killed President Kennedy in 1963, and that we the people are entitled to the truth. I don't see this as the place to make the case with a list of evidence. But we can point people to some of the more compelling evidence, for example selected videos on YouTube (maybe Gil would help with this) in a group created for this purpose. Let's point to evidence elsewhere (maybe even recommend the best books), then use the very expensive ad space as follows: We say why this murder matters today (as Nathaniel mentioned). We are on a downward continuum that began November 22, 1963. We tell some truths about JFK and what he really stood for and why his progressive policies led to his murder. I think it's critical that we show them the real JFK versus the demonized version the CIA depicts; people will care about the real JFK. Point them to his American University speech for example. We state our goals: Point out that we are entitled to see all documents from the JFK Records Act. We want all documents being held until 2013 unsealed. We want a genuine investigation into the murder itself and the two cover-ups (Warren Investigation & HSCA). We tell people what they can do to insure we achieve our goals. Just brainstorming.

Yes, why this matters, for example, is that--as evidenced in the 2000 election--the American people have no say in the running of the government. That's a direct result of the 1963 coup. Very important to show that 1963 coup=2007 fascism.

Ok, NY Times rates are in a PDF file here: http://www.nytadvertising.com/was/files/ot...lClassified.pdf But since they charge per column it's hard to get a real idea of the cost of a full or, more realistically, half page ad from it. A rough estimate of the price is here: http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=449751 Which says in part: "The column inch rate for weekday full-page display in the city edition was recently $191 (full-page rate discount included) per column inch so a full page would probably cost about $24,000 or about 2 cents per print copy circulated. This is the rate for a full-page, camera-ready black and white page." I think the NY Times is doable and USA Today is not so much doable.

I think you should worry less about the price and more about what to write that will REALLY have an effect. There are a few well-heeled JFK people who might be willing to help out if they saw a product and project they could get behind - or the money could be raised in progressive circles, again if something good were at hand. One might also first publish it in cheaper papers / magazines or on line and solicit money for a print run in NYT and other such in those. If a well-written piece of a page had references [both to books and websites] and concrete suggestions on what a person could do to move the case along or call for it to be REALLY investigated, it might have some effect. Nov 22 is not so far away and if it is to be done, someone should start 'a writin and the production of two or three versions [only differing in size/detail] might be in order....depending on what kind of money one comes up with in the end. Well that's kinda what I was trying to say in the other thread that people won't post in: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=10618 Still, we need to know the cost up front to know if it's feasible. I'm not as confident about the prospect of raising money as you seem to be Peter. $10,000 maybe. $80,000, no.

Thank you for investigating the USA Today price Tim. I'd like to look into the prices for a half page ad in the NY Times. Then I'll be able to give an opinion. (No, I don't think the USA Today prices are doable.)

Myra, he did not mention Colby's death. Mackenzie seemed to choose (wisely, I think) to write rather narrowly about the CIA's efforts to guard their secrets regarding domestic spying from the Congress, the press, and by default the American public. I sometimes wished he had engaged in a little more speculation, but in the end perhaps his book was more effective doing it the way he did. Thanks Mike. It sounds like a good book for the infinite reading queue.

It simply wasn't possible to effectively frame the patsy while he was "emphatically" proclaiming his innocence. For instance, Hoover had some ginned up "evidence" that Oswald had been in Cuba. That couldn't be brought out once it could be rebutted. The foundation of the plot was the frame job, the sheep-dipping of Oswald as an agent of Fidel, which required the silence of the patsy. When a strip club owner gunned him down on live TV, the Mob became immediately suspect, not Castro. According to the Operation Northwoods documents, in order to establish a successful pre-text for an invasion of Cuba there had to be "irrevocable proof" of Communist complicity. Oswald in custody was highly "revocable" as an agent of Castro. The parallel with the Northwoods plot, which JFK himself rejected, is compelling. Did JFK get Northwooded? Did they go for him instead of John Glenn? ...

Not if you also type out the text for us. ... OR... if you prefer, you could photograph it in readible sections. Maybe take one overall master shot so we can see the whole thing, then take a few snapshots of sections so we can read the text. Unless you'd rather type it out for us. I mean, how long could it be? ...If it's no bother of course...

Mike, do you recall if the book gives any insight into Colby's bizarre death in a "boating accident" near his home? His body was found underwater 20 yards from the canoe after the area was thoroughly searched multiple times, without the life jacket his friends say he usually wore. This was in 1996 though, long after his testimony to the Church commission.

Charles Drago This is great stuff you're posting Cliff. Really informative. Though as an impartial observer, which I am in this discussion, it doesn't meet the burden of proof. I don't see why Oswald's capture was inherantly automatically a show-stopper if the plotters really wanted to attack Cuba. Now if Harriman and LBJ didn't want to attack Cuba anyway and used this as an excuse that could be a factor. But what compelling case would they bring forth to squelch a planned invasion just because the patsy was scooped up by a right-wing CIA-friendly police force in the heart of "nut country"?

Do you have a digital camera? Yes really.

Copied from the old thread. Now THAT is a freakin' brilliant idea. I second the nomination of Larry Hancock. How many thousands of dollars do we need? (I'm sure we can't afford as much space as Kuntzler.) ---------------- I third the motion. I would be willing to put up some some of my misbegotten funds towards such an ad. I think it should have concrete recomendations on how people new to the issue can learn more. That would be time and money well spent! Also, if there was a reference to the forum, memebership would quadruple by teatime.

Now THAT is a freakin' brilliant idea. I second the nomination of Larry Hancock. How many thousands of dollars do we need? (I'm sure we can't afford as much space as Kuntzler.) ---------------- I third the motion. I would be willing to put up some some of my misbegotten funds towards such an ad. I think it should have concrete recomendations on how people new to the issue can learn more. That would be time and money well spent! Also, if there was a reference to the forum, memebership would quadruple by teatime. Discussion continued here: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=10618

Now THAT is a freakin' brilliant idea. I second the nomination of Larry Hancock. How many thousands of dollars do we need? (I'm sure we can't afford as much space as Kuntzler.) Ok, so just brainstorming this... We need: -To decide which newspaper we want to target and research prices. -The copywriter; Larry is ideal (contingent on his agreement ). -A treasurer or treasurers to collect and save the money and make sure this project is not somehow sabotaged. A lot of thought needs to go into that... -A coordinator. -Legal input (Dawn?). -A way to insure that if one person on the team flakes out the project goes forward without losing much time or work. -A way to deal with the inevitable agitators and infiltrators. -Stated goals, for example--insistence that all papers from the JFK act be released, that the murder FINALLY receive a proper investigation, that the documents that are sealed until 2013 or whatever be released, etc... -A call to action--something we want the audience to do to move us towards our goals. BK is very strategic and practical and could (if willing) help us come up with goals and calls to action. -Ideally do this as a coalition of forums Education/John, Lancer/Debra, Research/Rich, etc. -Then we might need a group name. We should do this. We really should do this.

Nathaniel, I hope I didn't spoil your plan to call, but I went ahead and called the number referenced and was fortunate enough to get right through to Mr. Kuntzler. He said he has been deluged with calls (a stack of 26 call backs on his desk) and had just finished an interview with Jay Severn (Boston) and is scheduled to do a few more TV interviews soon. I invited him to join the forum and gave him the info to find the website and he agreed to contact John, however he was short on time....it was about 4:10 and he said he had to call in to another radio show at 4:30 for another interview. He said he only has a hardcopy of the ad, but he is to have his publicist send me a copy via email, which I will post as soon as I receive it. Incidentally, he said that the NYT made a mistake (possibly deliberately in his favor) and included the ad in the national edition of the paper, including Canada when he had only paid to have it in the DC area edition. Phil! You are DA MAN! Thank you for everything you did. So his ad got a ton of attention, eh? Good good... I'm likin' Tim's idea more and more.

Of course it would be easier to discuss the merits of the ad if one of the MANY people who read it and are posting about it would be so kind as to scan it and post it here. HINT.

Now THAT is a freakin' brilliant idea. I second the nomination of Larry Hancock. How many thousands of dollars do we need? (I'm sure we can't afford as much space as Kuntzler.)

So many people threw themselves into the conspiracy. Kuntzler is just talkin' facts. The FBI/Hoover was the cornerstone of the cover-up. They produced a "report" within days that was merely rubber-stamped by the Warren Commission. Hoover was rewarded when LBJ made him Director for Life. I'm kinda thinking Hoover would never have had that kind of job security under JFK, blackmail or no blackmail. Besides, there was plenty of blackmail to use against Hoover (the mob supposedly had photos of him with Clyde), so the reciprocal blackmail could have canceled it all out. If you read the article, or even my summary, you'll see that he was referring to the FACT that Ford obliged in destroying evidence of bullet holes in the presidential limo. I see nothing extreme in stating facts. It was a complex plot with many plotters and accomplices. Kuntzler is merely the messenger, and we need messengers who can get past the media censors.

Of course that raises the question: was the Tippit killing part of the original plot or the amended plot? But I probably shouldn't muddy the water. We've already got our hands and brains full debating the critical question of whether or not invading Cuba was part of plan A. The Tippit question is one of the most puzzling and perplexing areas of study. There's a good thread on it right now at Lancer. It seems like everyone has their own pet theory about Tippit, and unfortunately too many of them make sense. I'm all over the place on Tippit. Poor dumb cop...