Anthony Thorne

Ed, the full version hasn't been published anywhere, but one or two other people (plus COUP co-author Leslie Sharp) have read it. I'm currently expanding it again, just ever so slightly. I'll keep you in the loop and send you a copy of the full version when it's ready. We're talking weeks, not days, but I'll have it ready eventually. Thanks for the kind words about it.

1 hour ago, Bob Ness said:

Yeah, they're sober

So this was before the after party?

Thanks very much Ed. Nearly 10,000 words were taken out of that essay, just due to space reasons (Leslie and I agreed on the lift). Following the trail into the 70's and 80's opened up a few unusual doors that neither of us had anticipated. I probably also need to return to the essay and expand it, as a fair bit of new info has come up since then. 

Archive.org was also very useful for name searches, as it brought up either papers, or obscure books that I'd never heard of. Google Books was a last resort option for me occasionally too, and I had to drop by the State Library of Melbourne and Melbourne University to access books that weren't available anywhere else online.

Yeah, so while Lance is bringing up UFO's and Bigfoot, why were the faces of those four goofballs in the picture above obscured again? I'm also not sure how 'the Jews' came into the discussion, but the guys arrested were Israeli. The article refers to 'newly released FBI documents', so I'd also be curious to know why those documents were sealed away for nearly two decades. What's up with that? Lance?

Anyway, the Jewish Daily Forward said the following about the idiots in the picture.

https://web.archive.org/web/20030413184526/http://www.forward.com/issues/2002/02.03.15/news2.html

Quote

 

According to one former high-ranking American intelligence official, who asked not to be named, the FBI came to the conclusion at the end of its investigation that the five Israelis arrested in New Jersey last September were conducting a Mossad surveillance mission and that their employer, Urban Moving Systems of Weehawken, N.J., served as a front.

After their arrest, the men were held in detention for two-and-a-half months and were deported at the end of November, officially for visa violations.

However, a counterintelligence investigation by the FBI concluded that at least two of them were in fact Mossad operatives, according to the former American official, who said he was regularly briefed on the investigation by two separate law enforcement officials.

 

Shrug. Maybe Mossad surveillance missions are a regular thing before large scale acts of terrorism that kick start a war. Also, most of the CORE OF CORRUPTION documentary is mainstream news clips. In fact, probably all of it is mainstream news clips, except for the segment from a Fox TV show at the end. 

But I don't want to derail this thread from JFK stuff. I'm happy to see that topic debated, but agree with the others here that accuracy is important. 

Ed, don't forget to pop some of those names into CIA Crest and see what's there. They have lots of useful documents, and it's often surprising what turns up.

Very interesting stuff Ed, appreciate your hard work here.

Shrug. Here's Whitney Webb's article about the FBI release of the docs and photos concerning the dancing Israelis, those fun loving guys seen downtown while the towers were still smoking.

https://www.mintpressnews.com/newly-released-fbi-docs-shed-light-on-apparent-mossad-foreknowledge-of-9-11-attacks/258581/

I wouldn't have known these guys existed if they hadn't been arrested, btw, so don't blame me for noting this as a topic of interest, blame the cops.

My only question here is, we can see Hugh Grant's mugshot after he was arrested for picking up Divine Brown in his car, but we can't see these guys? What's the problem? Were they really happy or something?

Referring to the last post, previous page. Matt - yeah, Jon mentioned the JFK film at one point. (I asked him, Jon, will Operation 40 appear in the film? His answer, "Duh, what do you think, dude?"). Also I did a loooong thread at Deep Politics Forum about Jon and the Pat Sullivan stuff. Jon eventually linked to it on Facebook, and said, if you want to know what's been up, read this.

There is no book on 9/11 right now that successfully links all the dots, beyond perhaps Kevin Ryan's ANOTHER 19, which spends a good while digging into those various topics you mentioned, and probably Peter Dale Scott's trilogy of recent deep politics volumes. Though as Jim DiEugenio pointed out on this forum, you can read Scott's JFK volumes, and by the end of them, still have no idea who he thought killed JFK.

Side note. I had already been interested in JFK for a while. The ripple of public interest in political conspiracies that started (for obvious reasons) just after the turn of the millennium led me to re-rread and dig back through a lot of books and articles and sites, generally trying to probe more deeply and get some answers. Jon was obviously doing the same for a while, then backed off. I've told him a few times I do not blame him, but still regret films two, three and four, and the JFK one, didn't materialise.

But the funny thing was, the research I did eventually came in handy for COUP IN DALLAS, just for one particular chapter. Some of the work they did for that book, doesn't appear in the final book, and some of the writing I did for my concluding essay, also doesn't appear in the book. Some of it extends what Kevin Ryan dug up. Ryan closely missed a real nest of interest by not moving his gaze and chronology back a further 5 years. from the early 90's into the late 80's, where the same names were all cooling their heels at the end of the Reagan admin. It's not related to Iran Contra, but to some other stuff, missed by pretty much everyone, that doesn't appear in any of the books you've likely already read. CIA Crest was our friend and turned up nearly a hundred documents of interest. I mentioned it to Jon, he's interested in reading it, I still owe him an email sending him the particulars. 

Many of the government advisors that were floating around, speaking to hawks in the military and industry, telling them to invest in weapons, tended to stay in service for decades. CIA Crest has a funny run of material with the CIA recruiting a new batch of scientists (including Sidney Drell) in November 1963, just a couple of weeks before Kennedy's murder. I followed numerous names from 1963 onwards, and numerous names from 2001 backwards, and there were a ton of unexpected connections that turn up only when you do some dedicated digging. It will all come out at some point.

The Pat Sullivan stuff was always funny. No matter where you looked, there was a rabbit hole that would plunge you into the abyss, no matter what rock you lifted up. 

1 hour ago, Matthew Koch said:

It's ludicrous to claim 911 wasn't an inside job...

I did research for this documentary maybe watch it and stop wallowing in ignorance..

 

Matthew - I was in touch with Jon for two or three years while he was initially making these movies, and last heard from him just over a month ago. I regret the sequel (which he revamped a few times) never came out, but he obviously had his reasons. I owe Jon a return email with a few bits and pieces.

2 hours ago, Michael Griffith said:

it is equally offensive and ludicrous to claim that 9/11 was an inside job, that the WTC towers were destroyed by controlled demolitions, that an airliner did not hit the Pentagon but that a missile did, etc., etc.

That's three different claims cited there. Ignoring the last of them, Peter Dale Scott, Jim Marrs,  Joan Mellen and a number of other decent JFK researchers have shared similar views. Scott even appeared on Alex Jones' show a couple of times way back in the day. 

Nixon (not the President) is on Twitter. To another poster, he listed his favourite JFK books as being

JFK & The Unspeakable

Survivor's Guilt

The Man Who Killed Kennedy: The Case Against LBJ

LBJ: Mastermind of the JFK Assassination

Best Evidence

High Treason

Crossfire: The Plot to Kill Kennedy

Plausible Denial

On the Trail of the JFK Assassins

Conspiracy of Silence

I grabbed at least two of Gary Murr's books on Connally when he was offering downloads of them. Both lost to a recent iMac crash. If they're still available anywhere I would be grateful.

I wouldn't trust Wikipedia and I wouldn't trust Dan Rather. It's a bit hard beyond that to double check the accuracy of these accounts, unless there's some documentation that turns up somewhere.

Rather has always reminded me a bit of Gerald Ford, an earnest dope doing the bidding of others, and working to protect one official story or another.

Mahoney was great. I actually wrote to him afterwards and told him he came off well in the documentary, and that I liked his books. He wrote a nice thank you back.

Good piece from Paul above. Krock comes up repeatedly in the CIA Crest database, writing to the CIA, communicating with heads of the CIA, writing to Dulles, getting a letter back from Dulles, and on and on and on. Krock also joined CSIS, the hawkish-spook filled think tank that has stunk up the American political landscape for over half a century, and sat on the advisory board alongside Gerald Ford. Ford was one of the more benign members of the group.

https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP80B01495R000200010012-9.pdf

Side note, I bought a copy of the James Allen Smith CSIS history STRATEGIC CALLING a year ago as it has detail unavailable anywhere else, and found it had been signed by CSIS founder David Abshire, the guy who started the whole thing with Arleigh Burke.

Shrug. If Putin can help the JFK assassination get some traction, good for him. I'll toast his efforts with a White Russian.

I value the Tucker episode and what Tucker said quite a bit, but I'm not sure why there's all this pressure to reveal the ID of the person who said it.

The quote is "I believe they were involved." So it's the opinion of someone in DC, presumably within the government somewhere. This is useful to hear, but you'd have to guess the person who said it doesn't want to do a long on-camera interview about the topic. It'd be an awkward day at work the next morning.

Also "being anonymous is absolutely worthless & beneath all standards of professional journalism" is a bit rich given that mainstream US journalism pretty much copyrighted the phrase "...according to sources familiar with the matter". If I had a dollar every time I read that line over the past half decade, my wallet would be in great shape.

Please be aware, many of these guys were also members of various companies, or took part in assorted commissions, or shared academic ties on campus. Figures from the Joint Chiefs would go join a weapons manufacturer, and then the head of that company would go to a big fighting-the-Cold-War speech given by Dulles, and then write Dulles a letter saying, we were so moved by that speech, we'd be honoured if you could attend our business-executives-against-Communism gathering, and Dulles would write back, I would love to but I'm busy that particular week, but Mr [NAME REDACTED] from the CIA will be happy to attend and will answer any questions that you have.

They took part in Business roundtables, they joined hawkish groups as unspecified 'advisors', they flowed through big networks like the CFR, and also through many smaller ones that you only stumble across by name if you start digging through the many pages of documents on the CIA Crest site - ie, if you see Dulles visiting a small hawkish advocacy group of twelve people, and the twelve are all cited by name, you search the biographies of the twelve individuals, and you start seeing how they also ran around working with and trying to impress the intelligence community, defense advisory bodies and assorted weapons manufacturers.

It goes on and on, but basically the ties between all these figures - and their assistants and collaborators in industry, in government, in academia and the CIA - are so comprehensive that a diary itinerary showing two of them walking into the same building in mid 1963 probably isn't going to address the real channels of communication that they'd been successfully using and exploiting for years.

Texas Instruments is one starting point for observing the flow of business executives and advisors and CIA figures in and out of government and industry. Many of them had worked together in the military in WW2. The Gaither Report also gathered a lot of these guys together to scratch their chins and debate how industry might best fight the communists. That report had been overseen by the Security Resources Panel of the Science Advisory Committee, and figures from the latter group would become permanent fixtures at Texas Instruments.

The little discussed background feature of science advisors lurking in the shadows nodding, producing helpful reports urging action, and whispering in the ear of their superiors in government needs a deeper study at some point. See page two of this obituary for Lauriston Marshall, written by his friend Frederick Seitz.

https://physicstoday.scitation.org/doi/pdf/10.1063/1.2913962

And Everett Glover's testimony to the Warren Commission - 

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh10/pdf/WH10_Glover.pdf

Leslie Sharp noted the following several years back on JFKFacts, and it pops up again in the COUP IN DALLAS volume. 

Quote

 

The deMohrenschildt’s arrived late at Everett Glover’s home on February 22, 1963, and stayed only a short time. Unless there are records to prove otherwise it was at this gathering that the deMohrenschildts were introduced to Ruth Paine. And it was at this gathering that Ruth Paine first met Marina and Lee Oswald. Of note: during Ruth’s WC testimony, Albert Jenner never asks her about the deMohrenschildts, and there are only two references to Everett Glover; one with her commenting “and whose connection is known,” and the other to confirm Feb 22, 1963 as the date she first met the Oswalds in Dallas at “Everett’s” as noted in her diary. Michael Paine’s testimony indicates he was not present on the 22nd, but met the Oswalds later.

In essence, it was Lauriston Marshall’s friendship with Sam Ballen and Marshall’s separate friendship with Everett Glover that started the ball rolling. Ballen and Glover strengthened their friendship with one another and with the deM’s. The deM’s introduced Glover to Marina and Lee, then Glover introduced Marina and Lee to his friends, Ruth and Mike Paine. I see no link between the Paines and the deMohrenshildts without Everett Glover and Sam Ballen – and they met thru Lauriston Marshall of the science research center.

 

Lauriston Marshall ran through at least one of the threads we followed connecting all the above, and his wife Betty married Seitz, a key advisor and hawk who would travel through roles advising the CIA and industry (including Texas Instruments) from WWII to the Reagan administration. Seitz worked for and was eventually given the running of the Defense Science Board, a you-need-to-buy-these-weapons government recommendations panel that appeared purpose built to put CIA figures, military leaders and heads of weapons companies in the same room for months at a time so they could concoct an elaborate report that would help them all get rich. All these guys benefited when Kennedy was killed, as the expenditures for Vietnam war supplies were allowed to run freely. It's these groups and their larger-sized gatherings, with Dulles popping in to give a talk and have a drink in 1963 as he travelled state to state publicising his recently written book - hey, Allen's in town, our meeting is that weekend, you guys used to work alongside him, let's see if he can drop by - that likely contain additional fruit for researchers looking to join dots on what happened that year.

On 12/20/2022 at 6:23 AM, James DiEugenio said:

Its really an amazing incident that is underplayed.

Was it a warning?

Jim, I haven't read the article in question for a while, which listed a few of the severe clashes that were occurring between Carter and his opponents - not just the usual electoral fighting, but more heated and underhanded stuff - but the implication was that it was indeed a warning.

I think through the same year, or somewhat prior, key neoconservatives had a meeting with prior to see if fences could be mended. The meeting went terribly, and they basically gave up on Carter from that point onwards. The neocons had numerous connections to the George HW Bush intelligence community, and this culminated in the October Surprise manoeuvres that helped Carter lose the election.

Reagan's electoral win was accompanied by a bunch of the Committee for the Present Danger crazies entering the Reagan administration, and the CPD were largely extreme hawks with ties to weapons companies who aggressively pushed for wars and became entangled in nasty covert projects like Iran Contra. If that group wanted to send a message to the sitting President that he should watch his step, evoking the Kennedy murder with names and talk of an assassination plot would be one way to do it.

11 hours ago, Adam Johnson said:

Has anyone ever been able to put Angleton, Dulles, Bissell, Lemay, Lemnitzer/Maxwell Taylor, WK Harvey, Ed Landsdale, LBJ and McGeorge Bundy in meetings or at functions during 1962 and 1963. Obviously not all together at once but possible combinations of these men together at any time whether it be work related or socially?

 

There's are some dates and activities and meetings for Dulles and others on the CIA Crest site. 

In 1963 Dulles went on a multi-state tour for his Craft of Intelligence volume. I suspect the book tour was less an exercise in drumming up sales, more an excuse to travel around and meet the people he needed to meet in the months leading up to November of that year.

Webster Tarpley has written that this was a fairly obvious message sent to Carter by his opponents in the government and intelligence community during a period when Carter was struggling with them over a number of issues.

Does it matter if they were sent over text, email or phone?

I'm not sure if the intelligence agencies will be all that surprised to see people doubting the official story, even high up government folk. I'm sure plenty have doubted it in the past.

They'd be more bothered if Tucker's source bothered to go on camera, or put his or her name to the assertion. But since that hasn't happened, they can just shrug, chuckle, and ask Phil Shenon to write up some more bullshit explaining away the week's inconvenient news headlines.

Kudos to whoever wrote that segment for Tucker, actually citing Lance De Haven Smith's book. Quite a segment.

Here's a letter written by C Frank Stone III a fortnight later, mentioning George. This is an older document, not from the new batch.

https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/docid-32272133.pdf

Simpich mentions that week's activities, and Stone.

https://aarclibrary.org/the-jfk-case-the-twelve-who-built-the-oswald-legend-part-8-the-cia-army-intelligence-mambo/

Quote

 

On 4/26/63, Gale Allen of the Domestic Operations Division requested an expedited check of sources on de Mohrenschildt while he was in Washington DC.  This may mark the beginning of a covert debriefing of de Mohrenschildt.  In a 2004 interview with author David Kaiser, Allen said that he had done this on behalf of someone else who had “plans” for de Mohrenschildt.

This man with plans was apparently C. Frank Stone, also of the Domestic Operations Division, who asked Anna Panor to request more information on de Mohrenschildt.  Leo Dunn at the Personnel Security Division provided a summary of de Mohrenschildt’s activities, which stated that certain derogatory information could be used to determine the right amount of contact with de Mohenschildt.

Anna Panor wrote a 5/9/63 memo to Stone, suggesting that more information could be obtained by contacting Thomas Schreyer, a high-level covert action officer in Meyer’s office who had handled de Mohrenschildt’s file in the past.

Between late April and late May, Stone had several meetings with de Mohrenschildt, Charles, and Thomas Devine.  Devine was a banker and partner of oilman George H.W. Bush.  At their last meeting, de Mohrenschildt assured Devine that Charles would make an excellent president once they got rid of Duvalier. De Mohrenschildt’s colleague Herbert Itkin, another spy that helped out Legend Maker #1 James Angleton in oil intelligence, was now the registered agent for Haiti’s “government in exile”.  Itkin said that George came to help out.