Bernice Moore
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Posts posted by Bernice Moore
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pat i think you told me in a post probably in this thread somewhere's that no one had stated they had seen a right rear head wound..but they did two were SSA Sam Kinney the driver of the follow up car the Queen Mary stated he saw the right rear of the President's head come off and Clint Hill W/C right rear i think he also talks about how the truunk the rear of the limo was covered with matter... i will check Kilduff but doesn't he say something like that burkley said it was a simple matter of a bullet right through the head or some such along those lines going by memory here and i could be wrong but if so doesn't a bullet right through the head or brain mean through from one side to another of the head..imo anyway i will check...ta b..
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don't feel bad fella's been there done that it probably simply means your included now in as some call the ''merry band''
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no need for an aplogy Kathy not your doing all Duke had to do at the time was email me from the forum and ask but he chose not to and apparently only compared parts of what had been posted, but went ahead and posted his suppositions anyway.. and yes i recall that which you mentioned a nice red line scoring the information which imo now was and is ruined, i learned many years ago you never alter nor touch in any way any documentaion nor photos, enlargements yes but nothing further...but as we know some do so continually and imo should never..as they need to show off their paint program skills i imagine..ta b..
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here is a copy of zap 317 that bill miller posted for us some time ago fwiw..b
and also enlarged...b
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Not quite, Peter.
Duke's post #109 shown here:
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...ost&p=50316
Here it is:(in bolds)
"Many thanks to Bernice Moore for taking the time to type in all of the quotes of the 59 witnesses in the "Delay on Elm Street" article in Murder in Dealey Plaza. I've glanced at samples of what is in MIDP and find these are faithful reproductions. I've added ellipses to some of the longer quotes, and underlined what the witnesses said about the limousine and/or motorcade for my analysis below. Some of the ellipses and comments are in the original (or may be Bernice's?).
I'm going to retract my statement that "the 59 witnesses are wrong" and say that it is merely one writer and "authority" on this issue who was mistken. (Jack, I'll trade you the phone number of your crack dealer for my remedial reading instructor's!)
I've gone through the quotes referenced and rearranged them as summarized here and quoted in full below. I've kept their "witness number" with their names so anyone can review what is said here with the book (which you have one, if you're clearly a "real researcher!").
This is what they said:
Said the limousine stopped - 14, two of whom reported it as others' observations, not as their own (net: 12)
Said the limousine slowed - 18, two of whom reported it as others' observations, not as their own (net: 15)
Said the motorcade stopped or slowed - 13.
Said the limousine sped up after the shots - seven
Did not specify according to above - seven
That's a total of 59, less the four who merely reported on other people's observations, for a net total of 55. This, as we will see, is not "59 witnesses who say the limousine stopped" as Jack White posited, but rather 12 who did (plus two who said other people said that it did ... and those other people may already be quoted ...?), or less than 25% of the people who offered a direct opinion (12/55=21.81%).
(I am taking everyone in sum total, that is, not accounting for whether it was said "on the record" - i.e., under oath - or in an informal setting, or whether it was said contemporaneously or several years after the fact.)
Note that some of these people may have said more than one thing, for example that the limo stopped, then accelerated after the shooting. In that case, they are listed under "limo stopped," and not under "limo sped up." If they only said that the limo sped up, or that it was already going slow and sped up, they are under "sped up." If they were unsure - e.g., "looked like it slowed down or stopped," this is not a positive statement as to stopping, so it is under "slowed down." Ditto, "paused" is not clear that it "stopped."
If they stated that the motorcade stopped, they are listed under the "motorcade" section because they did not specifically mention the limo or "the President's car" or anything like that, merely the "parade." (For example, one witness, L.P. Terry (#36), said "the parade stopped in front of the building." Since we know that the limo did not stop "in front of the building," it is a clear reference to the follow-up cars and busses, i.e., the rest of the parade and not the limo specifically.)
If they contradicted themselves (e.g., said one thing in 1963 and another in 1975), they are categorized under what they said earliest.
I may edit this somewhat based upon where someone was at the time, for example a motorcycle cop who was maybe still on Main Street could not have personally observed the limo do much of anything. I have added locations when known.
I don't think that anyone has disputed that the limousine slowed down and that the brake lights came on. The question is whether it stopped and, consequently, the Z-film has been faked. Well, we now know that 59 witnesses did not say the limo stopped, and out of them only 13 might actually have made this observation personally, or less than 25%. (Some of them really didn't say anything at all in this respect.)
If anyone thinks that, based upon what's in MIDP, my evaluation of their statements should change - i.e., what category they're in - let me know and maybe I will. tongue.gif
(59 Witnesses: Delay on Elm Street (Revised update-1998) by Vince Palamara)Said the limousine stopped (personal observation):
4) DPD motorcycle officer James W. Courson (one of two mid-motorcade motorcycles) — "The limousine came to a stop and Mrs. Kennedy was on the back. I noticed that as I came around the corner at Elm. Then the Secret Service agent [Clint Hill] helped push her back into the car, and the motorcade took off at a high rate of speed." ["No More Silence" by Larry Sneed (1998), p. 129];
6) Clemon Earl Johnson---"You could see it [the limo] speed up and then stop, then speed up, and you could see it stop while they [sic; Clint Hill] threw Mrs. Kennedy back up in the car. Then they just left out of there like a bat of the eye and were just gone." ["No More Silence" by Larry Sneed (1998), p. 80];
10) DPD Earle Brown — The first I noticed the [JFK's] car was when it stopped ... after it made the turn and when the shots were fired, it stopped." [6 H 233];
11) DPD motorcycle officer Bobby Hargis (one of the four Presidential motorcyclists) — "At that time [immediately before the head shot] the Presidential car slowed down. I heard somebody say 'Get going.' I felt blood hit me in the face and the Presidential car stopped almost immediately after that." [6 H 294; "Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb and Perry Adams (1974), p. 71; 6/26/95 videotaped interview with Mark Oakes & Ian Griggs: "That guy (Greer) slowed down, maybe his orders was to slow down slowed down almost to a stop." Like Posner, Hargis feels Greer gave Oswald the chance to kill Kennedy.];
13) DPD James Chaney (one of the four Presidential motorcyclists) — stated that the Presidential limousine stopped momentarily after the first shot (according to the testimony of Mark Lane; corroborated by the testimony of fellow DPD motorcycle officer Marion Baker: Chaney told him that " at the time, after the shooting, from the time the first shot rang out, the car stopped completely, pulled to the left and stopped. Now I have heard several of them say that, Mr. Truly was standing out there, he said it stopped. Several officers said it stopped completely." [2 H 44-45 (Lane)---referring to Chaney's statement as reported in the "Houston Chronicle" dated 11/24/63; 3 H 266 (Baker)];
14) DPD motorcycle officer B.J. Martin (one of the four Presidential motorcyclists) — saw JFK's car stop "just for a moment." ["Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 71];
33) Alan Smith---" the car was ten feet from me when a bullet hit the President in the forehead the car went about five feet and stopped." ["Chicago Tribune", 11/23/63, p. 9; "Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 71];
34) Mrs. Ruth M. Smith — confirmed that the Presidential limousine had come to a stop. [CD 206, p. 9; "Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 97];
35) TSBD Supervisor Roy Truly---after the first shot " I saw the President's car swerve to the left and stop somewheres down in the area [it stopped] for a second or two or something like that I just saw it stop." [3 H 221, 266];
39) Billy Lovelady---"I recall that following the shooting, I ran toward the spot where President Kennedy's car had stopped." [22 H 662];
42) Peggy Burney — she stated that JFK's car had come to a stop. ["Dallas Times Herald", 11/24/63; "Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 97; interestingly, during the 11/20/93 C-SPAN "Journalists Remember" conference, Vivian Castleberry of the Dallas Times Herald made the claim that her first cousin, Peggy Burney, was Abraham Zapruder's assistant "and was next to him when he shot his famous film. She called and said, 'Vivian, today I saw the President die.'"!---See Sheldon Inkol's article on this conference in the January 1994 "Fourth Decade"];
50) Bill Newman---after the fatal head shot "the car momentarily stopped and the driver seemed to have a radio or phone up to his ear and he seemed to be waiting on some word. Some Secret Service men reached into their car and came out with some sort of machine gun. Then the cars roared off "; "I've maintained that they stopped. I still say they did. It was only a momentary stop, but" ["Crossfire" by Jim Marrs (1989), p. 70; "Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 96] "I believe Kennedy's car came to a full stop after the final shot." ["JFK: Breaking The Silence" by Bill Sloan (1993), p. 169] "I believe it was the passenger in the front seat [Roy Kellerman]---there were two men in the front seat---had a telephone or something to his ear and the car momentarily stopped. Now everywhere that you read about it, you don't read anything about the car stopping. And when I say "stopped" I mean very momentarily, like they hit the brakes and just a few seconds passed and then they floorboarded [sic] and accelerated on." [11/20/97 videotaped interview with Bill Law, Mark Row, & Ian Griggs, as transcribed in "November Patriots" by Connie Kritzberg & Larry Hancock (1998), p. 362] "One of the two men in the front seat of the car had a telephone in his hand, and as I was looking back at the car covering my son, I can remember seeing the tail lights of the car, and just for a moment they hesitated and stopped, and then they floorboarded [sic] the car and shot off." ["No More Silence" by Larry Sneed (1998), p. 96];
Said the limousine stopped (reported observation):
2) ABC Reporter Bob Clark (rode in the National Press Pool Car - one of two, nine and ten vehicles behind JFK) — Reported on the air that the limousine stopped on Elm Street during the shooting [WFAA/ ABC, 11/22/63];
8) NBC reporter Robert MacNeil (rode in White House Press Bus, in the first press bus, 12 vehicles behind JFK, still on Main Street at the time) — "The President's driver slammed on the brakes — after the third shot " ["The Way We Were, 1963: The Year Kennedy Was Shot" by Robert MacNeil (1988), p. 193];
Said the limousine almost stopped, or slowed (personal observation):
3) UPI White House Reporter Merriman Smith (rode in the same car as Clark, above, 8 cars behind limo, still on Houston St) "The President's car, possibly as much as 150 or 200 yards ahead, seemed to falter briefly" [uPI story, 11/23/63, as reported in "Four Days", UPI, p. 32];
7) Malcolm Summers — "Then there was some hesitation in the caravan itself, a momentary halt, to give the Secret Service man [Clint Hill] a chance to catch up with the car and jump on. It seems to me that it started back up by the time he got to the car "["No More Silence" by Larry Sneed (1998), p. 104];
12) DPD D.V. Harkness — "I saw the first shot and the President's car slow[ed] down to almost a stop I heard the first shot and saw the President's car almost come to a stop and some of the agents [were] piling on the car." [6 H 309];
15) DPD motorcycle officer Douglas L. Jackson (one of the four Presidential motorcyclists) — stated " that the car just all but stopped just a moment." ["Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 71];
18) Secret Service Agent Sam Kinney (driver of the follow-up car behind JFK's limo) — indicates, via his report to Chief Rowley, that Greer hit the gas after the fatal head shot to JFK and after the President's slump to the left toward Jackie. [18 H 731-732]. From the HSCA's 2/26/78 interview of Kinney: "He also remarked that 'when Greer (the driver of the Presidential limousine) looked back, his foot must have come off the accelerator' Kinney observed that at the time of the first shot, the speed of the motorcade was '3 to 5 miles an hour.'" [RIF#180-10078-10493; author's interviews with Kinney, 1992-1994];
20) Secret Service Agent John Ready (follow-up car) — "I heard what sounded like fire crackers going off from my post on the right front running board. The President's car slowed" [18 H 750];
27) Mrs. Phil (Marilyn) Willis---after the fatal head shot, "she stated the Presidential limousine paused momentarily and then sped away under the Triple Underpass." [FBI report dated 6/19/64; "Photographic Whitewash" by Harold Weisberg (1967), p. 179];
37) Ochus V. Campbell — after hearing shots, "he then observed the car bearing President Kennedy to slow down, a near stop, and a motorcycle policeman rushed up. Immediately following this, he observed the car rush away from the scene." [22 H 845];
38) Peggy Joyce Hawkins — she was on the front steps of the TSBD and " estimated that the President's car was less than 50 feet away from her when he was shot, that the car slowed down almost coming to a full stop." ["Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 97];
41) Postal Inspector Harry Holmes (from the Post Office Annex, while viewing through binoculars) "The car almost came to a stop, and Mrs. Kennedy pulled loose of him and crawled out over the turtleback of this Presidential car." [7 H 291]. He noticed the car pull to a halt, and Holmes thought: "They are dodging something being thrown." ["The Day Kennedy Was Shot" by Jim Bishop (1967), p. 176];
43) David Broeder--"The President's car paused momentarily, then on orders from a Secret Service agent, spurted ahead." ["Washington Evening Star", 11/23/63, p. 8];
44) Sam Holland — stated that the Presidential limousine slowed down on Elm Street. [taped interview with Holland conducted in April, 1965];
46) Mrs. Herman (Billy P.) Clay---"When I heard the second and third shots I knew someone was shooting at the President. I did not know if the President had been hit, but I knew something was wrong. At this point the car President Kennedy was in slowed and I, along with others, moved toward the President's car. As we neared the car it sped off." [22 H 641];
51) Charles Brehm---"Brehm expressed his opinion that between the first and third shots, the President's car only seemed to move some 10 or 12 feet. It seemed to him that the automobile almost came to a halt after the first shot. After the third shot, the car in which the President was riding increased its speed and went under the freeway overpass and out of sight." [22 H 837-838];
52) Mary Moorman---"She recalls that the President's automobile was moving at the time she took the second picture, and when she heard the shots, and has the impression that the car either stopped momentarily or hesitated and then drove off in a hurry." [22 H 838-839];
54) James Leon Simmons---"The car stopped or almost stopped." [2/15/69 Clay Shaw trial testimony; "Forgive My Grief Vol. III" by Penn Jones, p. 53; "High Treason" by Groden & Livingstone (1990 Berkley Edition), p. 22];
Said the limousine almost stopped (reported observation):
1) Houston Chronicle Reporter Bo Byers (rode in White House Press Bus) — twice stated that the Presidential Limousine "almost came to a stop, a dead stop"; in fact, he has had nightmares about this. [C-SPAN, 11/20/93, "Journalists Remember The Kennedy Assassination"; see also the 1/94 "Fourth Decade": article by Sheldon Inkol];
31) Dallas Morning News reporter Mary Woodward (Pillsworth)---" Instead of speeding up the car, the car came to a halt."; she saw the President's car come to a halt after the first shot. Then, after hearing two more shots, close together, the car sped up. [2 H 43 (Lane); DMN, 11/23/63; 24 H 520; "The Men Who Killed Kennedy" 1988]. She spoke forcefully about the car almost coming to a stop and the lack of proper reaction by the Secret Service in 1993. [C-SPAN, 11/20/93, "Journalists Remember The Kennedy Assassination"; see also the 1/94 "Fourth Decade": article by Sheldon Inkol];
Said the motorcade came to a stop or slowed (did not specify limousine):
5) DPD motorcycle officer Bobby Joe Dale (one of two rear mid-motorcade motorcycles, positioned in front of the first press bus, 12 vehicles behind JFK, still on Main Street at the time) — "After the shots were fired, the whole motorcade came to a stop. I stood and looked through the plaza, noticed there was commotion, and saw people running around his [JFK's] car. It started to move, then it slowed again; that's when I saw Mrs. Kennedy coming back on the trunk and another guy [Clint Hill] pushing her back into the car." ["No More Silence" by Larry Sneed (1998), p. 134];
9) AP photographer Henry Burroughs (rode in Camera Car #2) — (eight cars behind the limo, still on Houston St) "we heard the shots and the motorcade stopped." [letter, Burroughs to Palamara, dated 10/14/98];
16) Texas Highway Patrolman Joe Henry Rich (drove LBJ's car) — stated that "the motorcade came to a stop momentarily." ["Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 71];
26) Phil Willis — "The [Presidential] party had come to a temporary halt before proceeding on to the underpass." [7 H 497; "Crossfire" by Jim Marrs (1989), p. 24];
30) Dallas Morning News reporter Robert Baskin (rode in the National Press Pool Car, 8 to 9 cars behind limo, still on Houston or Main (there was no "the" National Press Pool Car, there were three — stated that " the motorcade ground to a halt." ["Dallas Morning News", 11/23/63, p. 2; "Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 71];
36) L.P. Terry — "The parade stopped right in front of the building [TSBD]." ["Crossfire" by Jim Marrs (1989), p. 26];
40) An unnamed witness---from his vantage point in the courthouse building — stated that "The cavalcade stopped there and there was bedlam." ["Dallas Times Herald", 11/24/63; "Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 97];
45) Maurice Orr — noted that the motorcade stopped. [Arch Kimbrough, Mary Ferrell, and Sue Fitch, "Chronology", unpublished manuscript; see also "Conspiracy" by Anthony Summers, pages 20 & 23];
47) Mrs. Rose Clark---"She noted that the President's automobile came almost to a halt following the three shots, before it picked up speed and drove away." [24 H 533];
53) Jean Hill---"The motorcade came to almost a halt at the time the shots rang out and I would say it [JFK's limo] was just approximately, if not---it couldn't have been in the same position, I'm sure it wasn't, but just a very, very short distance from where it had been. It [JFK's limo] was just almost stunned." [6 H 208-209; Hill's testimony on this matter was dramatized in the Oliver Stone movie "JFK" (1991): "The driver had stopped-I don't know what was wrong with that driver." See also "JFK: The Book of the Film" (1992), p. 122. Therein is referenced a March 1991 conversation with Jean Hill.];
55) Norman Similas---"The Presidential limousine had passed me and slowed down slightly." ["Liberty" Magazine, 7/15/64, p. 13; "Photographic Whitewash" by Harold Weisberg (1967), p. 233];
57) Presidential aide Dave Powers (rode in the follow-up car)---" At that time we were traveling very slowly At about the time of the third shot, the President's car accelerated sharply." [7 H 473-475]. On 11/22/88, Powers was interviewed by CBS' Charles Kuralt. Powers remarked about the remorse Greer felt about not speeding up in time to save JFK"s life and agreed with Kuralt that, if Greer had sped up BEFORE the fatal head shot instead of afterwards, JFK might still be alive today [CBS, 11/22/88---this is a very dramatic and compelling short interview]. If that weren't enough, the ARRB's Tom Samoluk told me that, during the course of an interview he conducted in 1996 in which the Board was in the process of obtaining Powers' film, Powers said that he agreed with my take on the Secret Service!;
58) Texas Senator Ralph Yarborough (rode in LBJ's car) — "When the noise of the shot was heard, the motorcade slowed to what seemed to me a complete stop (though it could have been a near stop) After the third shot was fired, but only after the third shot was fired, the cavalcade speeded up, gained speed rapidly, and roared away to the Parkland Hospital."; " The cars all stopped. I put in there [his affidavit], 'I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings but for the protection of future Presidents, they [the Secret Service] should be trained to take off when a shot is fired." [7 H 439-440; "Crossfire" by Jim Marrs (1989), p. 482; see also "The Men Who Killed Kennedy" 1988: "The Secret Service in the car in front of us kind of casually looked around and were rather slow to react."];
Said the limousine sped up after the shots:
19) Secret Service Agent Clint Hill (follow-up car, rear of limo) — " I jumped from the follow-up car and ran toward the Presidential automobile. I heard a second firecracker-type noise SA Greer had, as I jumped onto the Presidential automobile, accelerated the Presidential automobile forward." [18 H 742; Nix film; "The Secret Service" and "Inside The Secret Service" videos from 1995];
21) Secret Service Agent Glen Bennett (follow-up car)---after the fatal head shot "the President's car immediately kicked into high gear." [18 H 760; 24 H 541-542]. During his 1/30/78 HSCA interview, Bennett said the follow-up car was moving at "10-12 m.p.h.", an indication of the pace of the motorcade on Elm Street [RIF#180-10082-10452];
24) Secret Service Agent William "Tim" McIntyre (follow-up car) — "He stated that Greer, driver of the Presidential limousine, accelerated after the third shot." [RIF#180-10082-10454: 1/31/78 HSCA interview];
28) Mrs. John (Nellie) Connally (rode in JFK's limo) — JFK's car did not accelerate until after the fatal head shot. [4 H 147; WR 50; "Best Evidence" by David Lifton (1988), p. 122];
29) Texas Governor John Connally (rode in JFK's limo and himself a victim of the assassination) — "After the third shot, I heard Roy Kellerman tell the driver, 'Bill, get out of line.' And then I saw him move, and I assumed he was moving a button or something on the panel of the automobile, and he said 'Get us to a hospital quick' at about this time, we began to pull out of the cavalcade, out of line." [4 H 133; WR50; "Crossfire" by Jim Marrs (1989), p. 13];
32) AP photographer James Altgens — "He said the President's car was proceeding at about ten miles per hour at the time [of the shooting] Altgens stated the driver of the Presidential limousine apparently realized what had happened and speeded up toward the Stemmons Expressway." [FBI report dated 6/5/64; "Photographic Whitewash" by Harold Weisberg (1967), p. 203] "The car's driver realized what had happened and almost if by reflex speeded up toward the Stemmons Expressway." [AP dispatch, 11/22/63; "Cover-Up" by Stewart Galanor (1998), Document 28];
59) First Lady Jacqueline Kennedy (rode in the Presidential limousine)---"We could see a tunnel in front of us. Everything was really slow then [immediately after shooting] And just being down in the car with his head in my lap. And it just seemed an eternity And finally I remember a voice behind me, or something, and then I remember the people in the front seat, or somebody, finally knew something was wrong, and a voice yelling, which must have been Mr. Hill, "Get to the hospital," or maybe it was Mr. Kellerman, in the front seat.We were really slowing turning the corner [Houston&Elm] I remember a sensation of enormous speed, which must have been when we took off those poor men in the front" [5 H 179-181]
Did not specify fully:
17) DPD J.W. Foster — stated that " immediately after President Kennedy was struck the car in which he was riding pulled to the curb." [CD 897, pp. 20, 21; "Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 97];
22) Secret Service Agent " " Johns (V.P. follow-up car) — "I felt that if there was danger [it was] due to the slow speed of the automobile." [18 H 774]. During his 8/8/78 HSCA interview, Johns said that "Our car was moving very slowly", a further indication of the pace of the motorcade on Elm Street [RIF# 180-10074-10079; Altgens photo];
23) Secret Service Agent Winston Lawson (rode in the lead car) — "I think it [the lead car on Elm Street] was a little further ahead [of JFK's limo] than it had been in the motorcade, because when I looked back we were further ahead." [4 H 352], an indication of the lag in the limo during the assassination.;
25) Mrs. Earle ("Dearie") Cabell (rode in the Mayor's car, positioned 4 cars behind the limo, taking turn onto Elm St.) — the motorcade "stopped dead still when the noise of the shot was heard." [7 H 487; "Accessories After the Fact" by Sylvia Meagher (1967), p. 4; "Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 71];
48) Hugh Betzner---"I looked down the street and I could see the President's car and another one and they looked like the cars were stopped then the President's car sped on under the underpass." [19 H 467];
49) John Chism---after the shots he saw "the motorcade beginning to speed up." ["Crossfire" by Jim Marrs (1989), p. 29];
56) Presidential Aide Ken O'Donnell (rode in the follow-up car)---" If the Secret Service men in the front had reacted quicker to the first two shots at the President's car, if the driver had stepped on the gas before instead of after the fatal third shot was fired, would President Kennedy be alive today? [as quoted in Marrs' "Crossfire", p. 248, based off a passage from O'Donnell & Powers' book "Johnny, We Hardly Knew Ye"] On page 40 of O'Donnell's book "Johnny, We Hardly Knew Ye", the aide reports that "Greer had been remorseful all day, feeling that he could have saved President Kennedy's life by swerving the car or speeding suddenly after the first shots." Indeed, William E. Sale, an airman first class aircraft mechanic assigned to Carswell AFB and who was stationed at Love Field before, during, and after the assassination, stated that "when the agent who was driving JFK's car came back to Air Force One he was as white as a ghost and had to be helped back to the plane *[undated Sale letter, provided to the author by Martin Shackelford];
So there ya have it. Does this prove the Z-film a "hoax" or "altered" with regard to the limousine stopping or not based upon 59 witnesses' statements "all" saying it stopped? I think not; what thinks ye?"
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Kathy there was no quick reply below to reply to this so when i hit reply all was repeated i want to comment on what duke surmized..''Some of the ellipses and comments are in the original (or may be Bernice's?).I made no comments nor eclipses additions etc..it was copied exactly as found.I CHANGE NOTHING AND NEVER HAVE IN POSTING ANY INFORMATION..and never shall..TA ..b
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thanks Jack that shows them much closer...i found this oldie in the files i have no idea if still out there and i do not count on the link to activate, may be some info from within the book in this critique..thanks b...below is one of the hoffman photos that goodman took b..
DATABITZ 2
January 27, 1996
by Martin Shackelford
Triangle of Fire by Bob Goodman
Harold Norman confirms to Goodman that he heard shells hitting the
floor.(p. 77)
The Dal-Tex Building:
p. 87: discussion of the tenants of the building
p. 215: man with horn-rimmed glasses (photos pp. 212-213) arrested in
Dal-Tex tells Goodman his attorney has advised him not to discuss
the matter.
p. 216: Jim Braden may have visited Dallas Uranium and Oil rather than
looking for a pay phone, as he was upstairs. DU&O was located on
the west side of Dal-Tex, behind the fire-escape (the window from
which a rifle allegedly protrudes?)
pp. 216-217: There were no corporate records of Dallas Uranium & Oil;
Texas Secretary of State only listed Morty Freedman Inc.,
which shared a phone number with Dallas Uranium & Oil, and with
Marilyn Belt Mfg. (directory page, p. 243). DU&O may have been
a dummy corporation.
p. 217: Dallas area people in the uranium business were few, and included
Nelson Bunker Hunt and Morris Jaffe, the latter a close friend of
LBJ. Some believed he owned the Dal-Tex Building.
p. 218: Jaffe benefited from decisions made by the Atomic Energy
Commission under chairman John McCone, successor to Dulles as
CIA chief. Jaffe took over the bankrupt Billy Sol Estes estate.
Jaffe and H.L. Hunt worked together for LBJ in 1960 at the Los
Angeles convention. A reporter described Jaffe as the "money
man...the brains...the trouble-shooter...and smart beyond
imagination."(Jules Archer)
The Cover-Up:
pp. 91-92: Goodman reports that the widow of a retired Air Force
Intelligence man told him her husband had been offered a job in
1974 in Dallas writing disinformation about the JFK assassina-
tion along with a few other people. The group included a lady
from Dallas, a friend of theirs, and two others. All were civilians.
The lady worked for a Dallas law firm. Oil money paid the tab.
p. 94: The disinformation layers were: Communists/Russia, Castro/Cuba,
The C.I.A., and the Mafia.
p. 98: Goodman refers to the Dallas group as "the disinformation
society," and notes areas of research with which they won't
cooperate: Dal-Tex, H.L. Hunt, Clint Murchison, Gen. Charles
Cabell, the Del Charro Hotel, Dallas Citizens' Council. (all
neglected areas of research in the mainstream community;
the exceptions include Penn Jones and Anthony Summers).
p. 100: JFK eliminated funding for the White Russian Solidarists, many of
whom in the Dallas area were associated with the oil industry.
Oswald's Wallet:
p. 96: Although Oswald's wallet was seized by police, Goodman notes
Oswald left his wallet and money with Marina at the Paine home
that morning. (He may have had two wallets, or have left the
money but not the wallet).
James Worrell:
p. 121: hearing 4 shots, seeing a man leave the rear of the Depository.
p. 122: the man was about 5'7" to 5'10", 155-165 lbs., dark hair, dark
sports coat, not carrying anything.
p. 123: died in a "car-motorcycle accident" on Nov. 9, 1966; found lying
in a ditch; friends reported James' motorcycle was parked on the
kickstand, and the motor was still running when he was found.
Ed Hoffman:
p. 127: usually described as shy, Hoffman allegedly approached Goodman
and identified himself as an eyewitness.
p. 130: Goodman's photos give a good indication that Hoffman could have
seen what he has reported seeing from his location on Stemmons.
The Oil Industry:
pp. 138-139: notes Garrison's reports of an oil industry man who was
familiar with Guy Banister's part of the Garrison probe before
it was publicized, and offered Garrison a federal judgeship to
drop the JFK investigation. Goodman suggests the story may be
true, but that Garrison may have made a deal to simply change
the focus of the investigation from the oil industry to the CIA.
Edwin Walker:
p. 155: Robert Surrey's comment (Walker aide) to the Dallas Times-Herald
on Nov. 24, 1963 that "through official sources, we had traced
that man who shot at the general to California." Walker pushed
for the assassination investigations to be all held in Dallas.
p. 155-6: Walker's associate Billy James Hargis (Feb. 1963 nationwide
crusade).
p. 158: Carlos Bringuier spoke in a lecture series sponsored by Hargis.
H.L. Hunt:
p. 167: Hunt:"Everything I do, I do for a profit." Organizing support for
LBJ in 1960."Patriotism is always profitable."
p. 168: mailed out 102,000 of an anti-Catholic sermon by W.A. Criswell,
pastor of his church, during the 1960 campaign. Hunt proposed another
member of the First Baptist Church of Dallas, Billy Graham, as a 1964
presidential candidate, but Graham declined the idea.
p. 169: DPD Lt. George Butler sponsored a talk by Hunt to the Dallas
Police Association at the Baker Hotel, shortly before the Bay of
Pigs invasion. Butler also provided police security for Hunt. Butler
offered a local newspaper editor a printing job for the KKK, to
which he said half the Dallas Police belonged.
p. 170: Walker aide Robert Surrey had the financial backing of Hunt's
companies.
p. 171: Hunt hated black people and the civil rights movement.
p. 172: Hunt stated JFK was a traitor and should be shot. Craig Zirbel
reports Hunt admitting prior knowledge of a conspiracy to
assassinate JFK. The Hyatt Regency at Reunion, where the first three
ASK conferences were held, was owned by the Hunt family.
p. 173: Hunt blamed the assassinations of JFK & MLK on communist plots.
Clint Murchison:
p. 185: In 1951, Murchison and H.L. Hunt organized the pro-MacArthur
campaign in Texas, bringing the general to Texas for a speaking
tour. The three were photographed together in front of the Alamo.
p. 186: D.H. Byrd, owner of the Texas School Book Depository, was one of
the Del Charro crowd who regularly stayed at Murchison's exclu-
sive La Jolla, California hotel. Oilman Byrd was a co-founder of
the Civil Air Patrol. Bobby Baker received money from a Murchison
company, the Haitian American Company. [Note DeMohrenschildt's
Texas and Haitian connections]. Baker associate Thomas D. Webb Jr.
represented the Murchison interests in Washington.
pp. 186-187: Also implicated in the Baker scandal were an admiral, a general,
and a NASA executive, and the representative of a major Texas
defense contractor, unnamed by LIFE.
p. 187: Murchison-owned publisher Holt, RInehart and Winston (publisher
of Rush to Judgement, whose index doesn't include Murchison,
Judge Joe B. Brown or DeMohrenschildt) offered Judge Joe B. Brown
a lucrative book contract and an all-expenses paid trip to Del
Charro
during the Jack Ruby trial (July 21, 1964). He received a $10,000
advance for a book that was never published. The trip was paid
for directly by the Murchisons. The publisher paid for his trip to
New York City. This gave Murchison access to the manuscript.
p. 188: Murchison and Thomas Webb knew Ruby; DeMohrenschildt knew Murch-
ison and worked for one of his companies. The Vito Genovese Mafia
family owned 20% of the Murchison Oil Lease Company in the early
1950's. From 1955-1965, Murchison's business were the subject
of Federal probes.
pp. 188-189: Murchison owned the Del Mar race track, which employed
Sirhan Sirhan, and where J. Edgar Hoover often attended.
p. 189: Hoover recommended that Murchison hire Thomas D. Webb Jr.,
a 17 year FBI veteran and one of Hoover's administrative
assistants. Murchison:"Money is like manure. If you spread it
around, it does a lot of good." Murchison tried to drive Ross
Perot's computer company out of business.
p. 190: Perot's wealth wasn't based in oil, he was an equal opportunity
employer, and he never applied to join the Dallas Citizens Council.
p. 199: Murchison funded the anti-Semitic press, and Lincoln Rockwell's
Nazis.
Earwitnesses:
p. 201: Goodman talked with people who heard, but didn't see, the
assassination. Shots sounded like a string of loud firecrackers;
or "Baboom...boom-ba-boom....boom-ba-boom-boom"; more than
3 shots. One witness thought he was hearing a shootout, with
Secret Service firing back.
spot.acorn.net/JFKpla.../2data
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yes Jack he did sell a newspaper in Dealey he was there for many months in Dallas gathering information then left and wrote his book...i have no idea if he was ever connected to the C.M he may have been during that time...i will dig out the book and see if he mentions anything..he was one of the two boys in the first pergola he said...seen below...b
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yes it seems it was bell's story..this is what i have found...info is from book '' triangle of fire'' by bob goodman...i believe..
324) Alan Smith:
a) "Chicago Tribune", 11/23/63, p. 9 [see also "Murder From Within", p. 71]---"…The car was ten feet from me when a bullet hit the President in the fore-head…the car went about five feet and stopped." [see Dr. Seldin, DPD Chaney, and Bill Newman, above; "Triangle of Fire" author Bob Goodman claimed to be Alan Smith during a 1992 interview with Ian Griggs. Goodman does claim to be an eyewitness in his book---on page 3, he states that "One of the bullets hit the President in his forehead."];
"Murder In Dealey Plaza" by James Fetzer (2000), pages 123, 342 1.[PDF]
The JFK Assassination Medical Reference: Part 6
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - Quick View
"JFK" (1991) [see also pages 12 and 582 of "JFK: The Book of the Film"]; ... and Bill Newman, above; "Triangle of Fire" author Bob Goodman claimed to be. Alan Smith during a 1992 interview with Ian Griggs. Goodman does claim to be ...
www.assassinationresearch.com/v4n2/v4n2part6.pdf
sorry it the link will not enable you will have to copy and paste it in google...b
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JACK....
Where, also, is the schoolboy, Alan Smith, who was widely quoted on 23 November in US newspapers? Smith said unequivocally the head shot had struck Kennedy in the forehead, which would strongly suggest he was in front of the President at the time. Now scan the films – he, too, has vanished. (“The car was ten feet from me when a bullet hit the President in the forehead…the car went about five feet and stopped,” Jack Bell, “Eyewitnesses describe scene of assassination: Sounds of shooting brought car to a halt,” NYT, 23 November 1963, p.5)
Minor contradictions between witnesses and films I could accept and rationalise. Wholesale, irreconcilable conflicts, not a chance.
Paul
Didn't Smith (Bob Goodman)say he was in the pergola????
The message is ready to be sent with the following file or link attachments:
Shortcut to: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...10829&st=45
B..
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Barb see pages 46 and 47 of David Lifton's Pig on a Leash...and so on...B
''Nevertheless, I did learn that night just how he had obtained prints of such
clarity: there was a lab in New York City where Life had sent the film for
enlargement in the late 1960s, and he had some connection with that lab. He
would not provide any details, but this lab (I now realized) was the source of the
extraordinary Z film materials I had seen at Time Life’s Beverly Hills office in
June 1970. This fellow “Robert” had worked there, obviously had access to an
optical printer at that facility, clearly knew how to operate it; had “borrowed” a
negative, and that was the source of his ultra-high quality prints. End of story, or
at least, that’s about how much I learned that night.
Either at this meeting or later—I learned what was special about this lab.
Normally, optical printers are designed to work in professional format—i.e.,
either in 16mm or 35mm. But the owner (who it turned out was Moses (“Moe”)
Weitzman, had made a special “shuttle” device, modifying his optical printer to
accept 8 mm film. Consequently, around 1967, the 8mm original Z film (which
LIFE purchased in November 1963) could be put into the standard optical
printer, and then blown up, i.e., magnified, in one step, to 35mm.
An important point needs to be made here. Weitzman had nothing whatever
to do with the alteration of the original Zapruder film which occurred in
November, 1963 in connection with its sale to LIFE—but Moe had everything to
do (around 1967) with restoring the film to this “oversized” or “magnified”
format, one crucial to collecting data on which all theories of film alteration are
based because only in such enlarged format is crucial detail visible and
measurable.
Let me explain. To alter the Zapruder film, initially, it was probably necessary
to “bump it up” to 16, and more likely 35. At that time, and after alterations were
made, the edited film (i.e. altered in 16mm or 35 mm format) would have to be
“reduced” back down to 8mm. So LIFE was sold an 8mm film—which arrived
either as an 8mm film, but possibly as a 16mm film which had the assassination
on “side 2”.
[Pig on a Leash (2003); By David S. Lifton] 47
For all practical purposes, once the film was slit (and then in 8mm format), it
was impossible to study with precision. The images were just too small.
If I may introduce another analogy: a forger blows up a check, works on
fabricating a signature in some enlarged format, then reduces the check back
down to ordinary size. Years later, in connection with forensic investigation, it
becomes useful to take the forgery and re-magnify it, to “blow it back up” to an
oversized state. Why? Because various anomalies are most easily studied in that
oversized format. That would be akin to what happened when LIFE sent its
“original” to Moe Weitzman in 1967. He had nothing to do with the original
(November 1963) alteration; but everything to do with creating an enlarged
version crucial for future study. And Robert Groden ended up with negatives
and prints from that endeavor.
While it is true that Groden did some additional work on the film, the
essential clarity of the film comes from Moe Weitzman’s ingenuity, when he
went from “8 to 35” in one step, and not anything Groden did. It was as if
Weitzman had climbed 90 percent of the way up Everest; Groden went the last
10 percent. Because of Weitzman’s ingenuity, the jump from 8mm to 35mm had
been made optically, in one step. And once a 35mm optical negative had been
created, the rest was standard operating procedure: creating 35mm prints; 16mm
“reduction” prints, etc.12
From this first meeting, it was clear that Groden was connected with the lab to
which LIFE had sent the original (around 1967), and which created the materials
I had seen in June 1970. But just who was he? And what were his credentials?
Who is Robert Groden''
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robert a ruby note...b
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[During the early 1990's in Dallas, there was a JFK Assassination Research Center in Dallas, I believe Larry Howard was the proprietor of it. Anyway the Center had "letters that Jack Ruby had written while in prison," although described by some as "long and rambling" the letters contained strange references to things such as "pogroms against the Jews." I never had the opportunity to peruse the documents, but have always been curious about them. Is there anyone here on the forum who is familiar with this aspect of Ruby, who may have the ability to post the letters on the forum or, provide their own insights into the material?
ROBERT I HAVE A FEW OF HIS LETTERS THOUGH I HAVE NO IDEA EXACTLY HOW MANY THERE WERE AND I HAVE NO ANALYSIS OF THEM FWTAW...EXCUSE CAPS THANKS...B IF ANY DOUBLE I WILL DELETE THEM...THE LAST PHOTO IS OF HIS PARENTS ...
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the link to martin hindrichs' information here on the forum in barb, jerry's and tink's article that i believe some have asked for... http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...105#entry170238
b..
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On the contrary, Barb, I am happy to see this posted here, especially this part:
(Bolds mine.)Kudos to Lifton for that ... many are intimidated thereto speak the courage of their convictions lest they end up on the
receiving end of the baloney from a small minded few.
It is always this way-- how very sad. We miss alot of thought from the silent majority who do not wish to be branded disinfo agents,or neocons, for disagreeing.
Thank you, Kathy. And I agree. The more the mainstream people speak out, the less power to intimidate and divert & distract from real discussion the "predictables" have. Never too late to turn the tide. We're both moms ... you know the parenting skills for dealing with tantrums....
Bests to you!
Barb :-)
BUT PRAY TELL GIRLS WHY LEAVE OUT THE MENTION OF THE ZILLION OF TIMES ON THE BOARDS that are still available to view THE ALTERATIONISTS HAVE BEEN JUMPED ON..for their view...SO ''We miss alot of thought from the silent majority who do not wish to be branded THAT GOes BOTH WAYS SOME WHO HAVE OR WOULD AGREE DO NOT POST BECAUSE OF SUCH PAst and continuing performances do not try to make this out as sooooo one sided as usual kathy as that is simply not true..if anyone is in doubt simply do a search...excuse the caps thankyou b..
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I was and am not a member of Duncan's forum and did not follow any of the forums for a long time but some information and your article was forwarded to me as was Martin's analysis. If you say you posted it here I will accept your word but I do think you should also post it on the lancer forum.
Best,
Doug Weldon
It was Bernice Moore who kindly posted the link over here, Doug.
At that time i wasn't a member of this forum here.
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...14532&st=75
Posting#77
I will state something about my study soon but i wait for something which will have to be arrived here at my home the next days.
Meanwhile i thank you both Doug and Jerry for your very kind words.
Take care
Sincerely
Martin
MARTIN, DOUG, A NIGGLE.... MARTIN IS THAT YOUR STUDY WAS POSTED ALONG IN A PAGE RE THREAD THE ARTICLE THAT TINK, BARB AND JERRY POSTED IN ONE OF THE LATER PAGES...IT COULD BE...
.TAKE CARE...BEST B.. -
john i realized that AFTER of course..ta b
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I do this most of the time
But some times I include all quotes if I am debating a subject with someone
If the thread goes onto another page it is much easier to read the how the debate has progressed instead of going back to the last page and looking for the post
And as far as John saying he is wearing out his scroll down wheel on his mouse I have a solution, I dont know if John remembers the old days (he looks kind of young) before that nice wheel was ever on the mouse, we had to scroll down the old way
Just go to the scroll bar at the right side of the screen and you can either click the down arrow or you can grab the blue bar inside the scroll bar and by holding the left click and draging it up or down
I would have thought you knew how to do this, but since you are wearing out your wheel you must not know of this old school method
I hope this helps
Dean
Thanks, Dean...for the offer of help. Young people like you who were raised on computers think all this is easy because it IS to you.
I did not learn (self-taught) to use a computer till I was 64; I am now 83...so I know how to do stuff, BUT DO NOT UNDERSTAND
TECH ASPECTS. I have used a Mac competently for 19 years TO DO THINGS I NEED TO DO. But learning NEW stuff is tough for
me. I only have time to do stuff...not to learn new things to do.
An analogy: I have driven a car competently for more than 60 years, but have only a faint idea what is under the hood or
what makes it work. They say you can't teach an old dog new tricks...well, keep in mind that I am a VERY OLD DOG.
Thanks.
Jack
hear hear on not bringing down the ruddy long threads, such a waste of resources think of that when you or whomever does...and give the forum a break that john has enabled for all, abuse it like anything else and it eventually will not be there goes for all..... though this has been discussed in the past there are some who constantly and will continue to do so...and JACK A SELF TAUGHT HERE AS WELL MY SON SAID..HERE IS A PC this is how to turn it on HERE IS A BOOK READ...and left.EEK....i admit i did crash a few pcs in my time each a learning experience i told..myself .lol.
.yeah for the old doggers..though imo your too sharp to be called one yet ....if half on here retain half your ability at your age if they see it that is...they shall be most fortunate..they don't make em like you jack anymore.. ..include me in there as well jack am proud to say,in the getting up there.. as the years do fly....take good care and best to Sue...b.. 
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'Jerry Logan' date='Jan 7 2010, 08:18 AM' post='177899']
THANKS JERRY BUT I DO BELIEVE I SHALL WAIT AND SEE...I CAN ALMOST HEAR IT NOW...ARTIFACTS YADA YADA THANKS FOR YOUR THOUGHTS...PERHAPS I AM BECOMING SOMEWHAT JADED BEING IN THIS AND READING TOO MUCH AND INTO IT TOO LONG, AND THAT CAN HAPPEN, I AM SIMPLY HOPING HER WORK AND THEIRS WILL BE GIVEN AN HONEST HEARING AND REAL STUDY BEFORE BEING JUMPED ON BUT..SOMETHING TELLS ME BUT..SEEN IT IN THE PAST MANY TIMES..WITH MANY A NEW STUDY AND IT WILL HAPPEN AGAIN..I HAVE NO DOUBT AGAIN, I SHALL WAIT AND SEE..THANKS AGAIN...BBernice,
I'm always happy to exchange ideas with you. You have an amazing store of information! I know it must get discouraging for you at times but here's a thought. By definition, every conspiracy theory cannot be correct. If the Cubans did it then the Secret Service didn't, nor did the mafia or the CIA. It's true that we're having some difficulty finding the right theory - but Fetzer, Rigby and White (even Lifton) can be dead wrong and it won't matter and it won't mean there wasn't a conspiracy. It just means that the truth is out there in the other 95%. There's lots of good work being done that has nothing to do with the Zapruder film so I wouldn't live or die by Doug Horne's 150 pages on Zapruder.
Best to you,
Jerry
THANKS FOR ANOTHER REPLY..BUT IMO I DO THINK THAT WITH ALL THE INFORMATION WITHIN MR.HORNE'S WONDERFUL SET OF BOOKS..NOT JUST THE ZAPRUDER BUT ALL THE INFO THAT HE HAS BROUGHT US PERHAPS OUT OF THE WILDERNESS WHERE ALL SEEMED TO BE PRETTY WELL STUCK.FOR SOME YEARS ...I REALIZE THERE HAVE BEEN A FEW VERY GOOD BOOKS IN THE PAST YEAR AS WELL BUT NOT WITH HIS CONTACTS ACCESS TO FILES DOCS AND ALL..AND IN THE SAME AMOUNT A 5 BOOK SET AN ENORMOUS ENDEAVOUR THAT IS SO APPRECIATED BY SO MANY HEAR HEAR......IT IS AMAZING WHAT HE HAS DONE REALLY WHEN THINKING OF IT..IN SOME WAY THE ANSWER TO THE W/C (THAT'S WATER CLOSET IN ENGLAND)...
AND BETTER STILL BECAUSE IT REPRESENTS THE TRUTH OF WHAT WE DIDN'T KNOW WHERE THE W/C WAS AN UGLY FAIRY TALE A SCARY ONE...WITH LITTLE TRUTH AND NO HONOR..YES I CALL IT THE RATS NEST THE DUNGEON FILES WHERE THE GREMLIN LIVES AS A GUARDIAN TAKES MUCH TIME AND I SHOULD BE BACK TENDING TO IT SOON AND FILING AND DOWNLOADING IT IS A NEVER ENDING ENDEAVOUR AND I DO ENJOY IT SO...I'M A BEGGAR FOR PUNISHMENT IT SEEMS WHEN YOU ARE AT IT SO LONG I GUESS IT BECOMES NO PUNISHMENT JUST SECOND NATURE AN EVERY DAY OCCURANCE AND I CAN ENJOY GETTING INTO IT ESPECIALLY THE DUNGEONS WTH SUCH AS GREMLINS...AND I AM ALONE IN SOLITUDE WITH NO OTHERS A HIDEAWAY OF SORTS I IMAGINE...AND WITH A CUPPA ALONG SIDE I'M IN.. AND PERHAPS TOTHER CREATURES...ABIDE WITHIN ALSO ONE NEVER KNOWS WHAT ONE WILL FIND..MUCH GARBAGE AT TIMES ALSO I AM AFRAID..I AM A PACK RAT HAVE ALWAYS BEEN... 
:lol:BUT THEN IT COULD BE A SIGN OF GOING ROUND RUDDY BEND AT TIMES IT COULD APPEAR ..LLH.THANKS AGAIN TAKE CARE AND HAVE A GOOD NEW YEAR...B PLEASE EXCUSE THE CAPS THIS TIME OF NIGHT CANNOT TYPE PROPERLY...B AND I HAVE NO IDEA WHY I AM HERE AT THIS TIME OF NIGHT ER...MORNING...WHEN ALL ARE SUPPOSE TO B
E SNOOZING..AW WELL SOME DO NOT..THE NIGHT HAWKS.. :oOH AND BTW I DO NOT HAVE A THEORY I NEVER HAVE HAD I STILL AWAIT THE TRUTH ,ONE DAY...TA B.. -
THANKS JERRY BUT I DO BELIEVE I SHALL WAIT AND SEE...I CAN ALMOST HEAR IT NOW...ARTIFACTS YADA YADA THANKS FOR YOUR THOUGHTS...PERHAPS I AM BECOMING SOMEWHAT JADED BEING IN THIS AND READING TOO MUCH AND INTO IT TOO LONG, AND THAT CAN HAPPEN, I AM SIMPLY HOPING HER WORK AND THEIRS WILL BE GIVEN AN HONEST HEARING AND REAL STUDY BEFORE BEING JUMPED ON BUT..SOMETHING TELLS ME BUT..SEEN IT IN THE PAST MANY TIMES..WITH MANY A NEW STUDY AND IT WILL HAPPEN AGAIN..I HAVE NO DOUBT AGAIN, I SHALL WAIT AND SEE..THANKS AGAIN...B
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thanks Jerry what came to mind and I am pointing out and hoping that this use of a 5th generation copy wshe bought will not be or tried to be used and given down the road as a ''W'ell never know'' excuse because of such...but i already am getting that iffy...we shall see as all progresses..thanks take care..b
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Hi Don perhaps he hasn't one or is still thinking on it...he will eventually but please do not get a complex because he hasn't as yet..it's not worth it....take care best b..do carry on...
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HI CARL LOOKING AT IT THE OTHER WAY DO YOU NOT THINK OR EXPECT THAT IT SHOULD CAUSE TROUBLE...sorry for caps..best b..
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Cool Jerry. Sounds good to me.
Tink
Hello Tink!Yes, every generation adds grain and contrast to the image and the Zapruder film was high contrast to begin with by the nature of the film itself. It will be interesting to see what the Hollywood group has to say about the contrast issue because I suspect that's why they believe that the back of the President's head has been pasted over - it looks like a featureless black patch by this generation. The real question is what does the original look like under high magnification and proper illumination.
If they can't get to the original, I think the 4x5s that MPI took for the DVD project would be a much better copy than what they're working with now or the Life 4x5s might even be better. So maybe we should try to get Gary Mack together with Doug Horne and see what they can work out. At the least, short of examining the original, everyone who knows what they're doing is going to want to check the Hollywood group findings against the earlier and better 4x5s.
Best to you Tink - glad to see you posting again.
Jerry
Hi Bill and Jerry,
"Counting the extant film as zero, she had obtained a fifth generation copy (as explained earlier in this chapter). If she had requested a projection print (i.e., a positive) she would have purchased a fourth generation copy; but the preferred medium for studying film characteristics in Hollywood is a motion picture negative, so she settled for a dupe negative of a fourth generation projection print.."
Wow! A fifth generation copy! Isn't the image quite degraded as one goes from copy to copy of copy to copy of copy of copy to copy of copy of copy of copy? Aren't better copies than this available from other sources... for example, the DVD made by the Zapruder family a few years ago. I can understand why one would want to use a copy certified as a copy by NARA. But a 5th generation copy? Some time ago people were looking at Z film copies of copies and coming up with a chrome revolver in Bill Greer's hand.
Josiah Thompson
She had literally “put her money where her mouth was” by forking out $ 795.90 for a 35 mm dupe negative of the Zapruder film from a source whose honesty and integrity could not be challenged by any future researchers: the National Archives and Records Administration (NARA).B..
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BILL''And I don't accept your conclusion that we'll never know, as we are learning more every day, and it's getting exciting, isn't it?''
BILL ANY THOUGHTS..I HAVE BEEN READING WITHIN SOME POSTS OF LATE THIS WE'LL NEVER KNOW CLAP TRAP IMO...IS THIS TO BE OR IS THIS THE NEWEST PLOY LINE...IMO THAT IS CRAP AS YOU SAY ''I think we are closer now than ever before. '' SOUNDS TO ME LIKE A NEW EXCUSE BEING FORMULATED WHICH WILL be ADDed TO AS IT CONTINUES I HAVE NO DOUBT...BY THOSE WHO BASICALLY DO NOT BELIEVE THE ZAPPY IS ALTERED...AND IN THE PAST HAVE LET THAT BE KNOWN..I ALSO SEE ONE IN PARTICULAR CLIMBING ON THE BAND WAGON SUDDENLY TRYING TO GIVE THE IMPRESSION OF EITHER BEING A CONVERT , OR SUGGESTING THEY ALWAyS PERHAPS kNEW THERE WAS SOMETHING WRONG WITHIN...WHY ??SO THAT WHICHEVER WAY THE RESULT FALLS WILL BE THEY THINK ON SAFE GROUND WITHIN THE ALTS FORUMS AND OTHERS...HMMM ONE NEVER KNOWS, IT CERTAINLY IS GETTING INTERESTING...IMO...
B, EXCUSE CAPITOLS THANKS...MUCH..Bernice and Bill,
With all respect, that's not what I wrote.
"In fact, if I were going to make an assumption, it would be that the original A roll, the family pictures, never left Dallas for Life or anywhere else. Why would Zapruder want to give them up and why would Life want them. As I wrote, that's assumption and speculation, we'll never know unless more information comes to light. "
In short, we'll never know if Zapruder's family film left Dallas, unless we gather more information. I don't see how that's a ploy or clap-trap. I made it clear I was offering some speculation and suggesting that I could never be proven right unless we had more information. If that's part of the evil plan Bernice it's really, really subtle and I assure you, well beyond me.
Bill, I'm with you. I've never been impressed with the "image anomalies", but some of Horne's information is new and exciting and I really want to know where it leads. That said, I think it's important to separate out the new facts from assumptions and speculation so we can determine what evidence is needed to really establish something interesting. It's definitely not my conclusion that we'll never know - but I do think there's more work to be done.
Jerry
Jerry,
Certainly some of Zapruder's family film DID leave Dallas.
A frame or two from the sequence of one of Zapruders children or grandchildren digging in a planter on a patio with a shovel was published in Esquire magazine, early 1970's as I recall. It accompanied the Stolley article on the film that appeared in that issue.
Todd
Here's one Todd...b
b
.yeah for the old doggers..though imo your too sharp to be called one yet ....if half on here retain half your ability at your age if they see it that is...they shall be most fortunate..they don't make em like you jack anymore.. 
:lol:BUT THEN IT COULD BE A SIGN OF GOING ROUND RUDDY BEND AT TIMES IT COULD APPEAR ..LLH.THANKS AGAIN TAKE CARE AND HAVE A GOOD NEW YEAR...B
Why Tink and I love Jim and Jack
in JFK Assassination Debate
Posted · Edited by Bernice Moore
here you go,,,
OVERLOOKED MEDICAL EVIDENCE-RELATED GEMS
Compiled by Vince Palamara
vmplac@telerama.com
As of June - 2003, write Vince Palamara at vincebethel@yahoo.com
Dr. Charles Crenshaw---
Vindication:
WC references to his presence on 11/22/63: 6 H 40 (Baxter), 6 H 31-32
(McClelland), 6 H 80-81 (Salyer), 6 H 141 (Henchcliffe), 6 H 60
(Curtis)+15 H 761: index;
:-) :-) :-) Completely overlooked WC reference to his presence on
11/24/63: 21 H 265(report by Parkland Administrator Charles
Price)---"Dr. Charles Crenshaw was in the corridor and said they had
been alerted. He said, 'You're not going to put him [Oswald] in the same
room the President was in, are you?' told him I surely was glad he
had thought of it and by all means, not to.";
January 1964 "Texas State Journal of Medicine" article entitled "Three
Patients at Parkland", p. 72---"Dr. Jenkins recalls that the following
physicians were members of the resuscitation team: Drs. Jenkins and
Akin…Drs. Gerry Gustafson, Dale Coln, and Charles Crenshaw, all
residents in surgery, who were prepared to introduce cannulae into the
veins via cutdowns or percutaneous puncture…three members of the staff
were performing venous cutdowns, one in each lower extremity and one in
the left forearm. These were performed by Drs. Coln, Crenshaw, and
Gustafson."
???---
Geraldo's "Now It Can Be Told", 4/2/92 (excerpt inc. on James Fetzer's
video "JFK: The Assassination, The Cover-Up, and Beyond", 1994; see p.
93 of Michael; Benson's "Who's Who on the JFK Assassination")--- G.
Robert Blakey of the HSCA makes the claim that they did talk to Crenshaw
but he "was not the best witness" (?);
----------------
vindication re: Dr. Williams---
some have doubted he was there...
21 H 215 (Nurse Bertha Lozano's report)---"Then the president's body was
escorted out. The crowd vanished, and then I felt so confused that I
just had to leave the desk for a few minutes. I later went to the dining
room with Pat Hutton AND A DR. WILLIAMS and had coffee and afterwards,
went home."
---------------
Maybe Burkley wasn't all bad---
22 H 93-97: 11/27/63 report of his activities surrounding the
assassination of JFK [see also Manchester, p. 670]---(22 H 94 and
97)"[at Parkland]It was evident that death was imminent and that he was
in a hopeless condition."; [at Bethesda]"…his appearance in the casket
gave no evidence of the injury he had received.": perhaps because the
wound was in the BACK of the head?
11/22/63 Press Conference by Asst. WH Press sec. Mac Kilduff (please see
"Best Evidence", pp. 330-331 and photo 28 [Kilduff Press Conference,
11/22/63, Transcript 1327B-LBJ Library; USSS RIF# 154-10002-10194]: "Dr.
Burkley told me, it is a simple matter, Tom, of a bullet right through
the head": he then points to his right temple! Question: "can you say
where the bullet entered his head, Mac?" "It is my understanding that it
entered in the temple, the right temple."; "They [the shots] came from
the right side." [see Thomas Atkins' film clip as shown in "The Men Who
Killed Kennedy", "The Jim Garrison Tapes" video 1992, "JFK: The Case for
Conspiracy" video 1993, "High Treason 2", p. 290, Groden's "TKOAP", p.
59; "POTP", p. 408] This information was repeated by Chet Huntley on NBC
that day: ""President Kennedy, we are now informed, was shot in the
right temple. 'It was a simple matter of a bullet right through the
head,' said Dr. George Burkley, the White House medical officer." [NBC
video, 11/22/63, 1:47 p.m. CST; clip repeated in Prof. James Fetzer's
video "JFK: The Assassination, The Cover-Up, and Beyond"];
"Reasonable Doubt", p. 49 (1982 interview by Henry Hurt+letters of
10/6/82 and 10/14/82)---believed that President Kennedy's assassination
was the result of a conspiracy;
----------Larry O'Brien: overlooked---
His book entitled "No Final Victories: A Life in Politics from John F.
Kennedy to Watergate" (1974) [see also "Reflections on JFK's
Assassiantion" by John B. Jovich (1988), pages 35 and 37]---At Parkland
Hospial: "It was chaotic, doctors, nurses running in and out. Medical
equipment being wheeled into the room. At one point Jackie and I stepped
into the adjoining room where the President's body lay. All I recall is
***I thought he looked as he always had.***"
MAYBE BECAUSE THE DAMAGE WAS TO THE REAR OF THE HEAD?
------------
Dave Powers...no, not him, too?!---
Interviewed for Ralph Martin's "A Hero For Our Time" (1983): see esp.
pages 519 and 545---Powers appears strongly to be the source for the
following sentence: "The third shot tore off the ***top back half of his
head "and we could see the hair and all the stuff go right up in the
air", an aide said."***;
-----------
Elizabeth Wright, WIFE of O.P. Wright---
21 H 198: page from lengthy/ 10-page (21 H 193-202) 12/11/63 report on
activities 11/22-11/24/63 [see also Manchester, p. 675]---"Mr. Wright
had somewhere down the line asked me if I could ascertain the path of
the bullet---or bullets---determine the path, and find out where the
instrument of injury actually was." (!);
Chief of Security O.P. Wright--
21 H 229-332: report of activities 11/22/63---NOTHING about CE399!
Part 4 of "CBS News Inquiry: The Warren Report" 6/28/67 [see also "Post
Mortem", p. 46]---"...I got hold of a Secret Service man and THEY[sic?]
didn't seem to be interested in coming and looking at the bullet in the
position it was in then. So I went back to the area where Mr. Tomlinson
was and picked up the bullet and put it in my pocket, and I carried it
some 30 or 40 minutes. And I gave it to a Secret Service man that was
guarding the main door into the emergency room...";
for more on this issue, see-
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/palamara.htm
-----------------------
DR. WILLIAM ZEDLITZ'S PRESENCE AT PARKLAND HOSPITAL ON NOVEMBER 22,
1963, AS VERIFIED BY DR. MARTIN G. WHITE (WARREN COMMISSION VOLUME 6,
PAGE 83): Arlen Specter: "And what doctors were present at the time you
left the room?" Dr. White: "Well, it would be impossible for me to tell
you all the people that were there, but I knew Dr. Carrico, Dr. Baxter,
Dr. Perry, and Dr. Zedelitz, Z-e-d-e-l-i-t-z (spelling)---I know they
were there." Arlen Specter: "Doctor who---what is his first name?" Dr.
White: "William Zedelitz." Arlen Specter: "To what extent did he
participate?" Dr. White: "I don't believe that he did any---I don't know
what he did other than the fact that when I was doing the cutdown he
assisted me by just placing some tape over the catheters we used to do
this with." Arlen Specter: "Is he an intern as you are?" Dr. White: "He
is a surgical resident here at this hospital." [This is the reason why
no one has ever contacted him before---he misspelled his last name!]
11/4/98 mletter from Dr. William Zedlitz to Vince Palamara---
"At first glance the president seemed to be in extremely serious
condition as he was not responding to any of the stimuli around him, and
obviously had a massive head injury to the right occipito-parietal area
(right posterior-lateral) of his cranium. This area was a mass of bloody
tissue with multiple skin, hair, and bony fragments matted together with
blood and brain tissue and covered an area approximately ten by twelve
centimeters in diameter. His left eye also seemed to be bulging from his
eyesocket. At this point, Dr. Carrico indicated that he was unable to
effectively ventilate the patient via the endotracheal tube. Dr. Baxter
and Perry immediately began to perform a tracheostomy. Prior to making
the incision, it was noted that a small (5mm to 7mm) hole in the front
of the neck below the thyroid cartilage was present. This was in the
exact location where the tracheostomy was to be performed. Dr. Baxter
and Perry decided to do the procedure by extending the transverse
incision on either side of this hole so that the tracheostomy tube ended
up being inserted in the site of the former hole."--------------
Robert E. Schorlemer, M.D.---
"I was a senior medical student making rounds in the E.R. (at Parkland
Hospital) with second-year surgery resident, Dr. James Carrico, to
evaluate who was to be admitted from the night-shift holdovers. We were
moving from one stall to another when we heard banging of doors from the
triage station at the front of the ER. Shortly thereafter, we heard
screaming from the front asking for more stretchers, and right after
that Gov. Connally was pushed through the hall door on a gurney. He was
wearing a gray silk suit with alligator shoes and was moaning and
gasping for air.
Red Duke, the chief resident in surgery manning the ER, jumped up
from the nurses' station, and we all moved into ER operating room #1 to
take care of him. I opened his shirt to see a chest wound on his right
side sucking air. Red directed that a Vaseline gauze pad be placed over
the wound to help seal the pneumothorax that was
produced by this until they could get a chest tube placed. I did this.
At that point, Jim
Carrico said, "Let's go to the next room to get ready for the next case
coming in."
As we walked out of the room, President Kennedy was wheeled into the
hallway
separating the two rooms. In my disbelief, I figured that this had to be
his double as no one could believe that the president could be placed in
such jeopardy. As one could see, half of the calivarium of the skull had
been blown away with the underlying brain exposed and the flap produced
lying behind his head. Some agonal movements were being made, and Jim
directed that I get the IV started while he tried to intubate him. His
comment was, "Boy, I'm lucky to have been able to intubate him because
the trachea was severed by one of the bullets."
http://www.chron.com/content/chronicle/spe.../jfk/index.html
[memories: San Antonio/ Houston]
-----------
Dr. Donald Curtis---
9/30/98 letter to Vince Palamara---"1. The wound involving the right
posterior lateral surface of the skull appeared to me to be an exit
wound or a tangential entrance wound. 2. I am unaware as to the details
of the "official story" therefore I am unable to comment on my
interpretation."
-----------
Dr. Donald Seldin---
8/27/98 letter to Vince Palamara---"The bullet struck the President in
the forehead and literally exploded in his skull, so that the entire
frontal, parietal and temporal bones were shattered…I believe that the
official story is accurate in all details." [!]
----------
FOR THE DYING/ "DEAD" AGENT, PERHAPS?---
Nurse Bertha Lozano:
21 H 213-215: report of activities 11/22-11/24/63 [see also Manchester,
p. 672]---"…obtained a carriage from Booth #5, with the help of Dr. Bill
Midgett who helped me roll it out to the entrance."; SEPARATE from JFK
and Connally: "A technician came to the desk and asked me to expect a
private pateint who was bleeding…Blood technicians came to ask me who
"Mr. X" was who did not have an E.R. number. Hematology also came with
the same problem and was told the same thing."
-------------
Milton T. Wright, Jr. :Texas Highway Patrolman(driver of Mayor Cabell's
car):
a) 18 H 802: report dated 11/28/63---"At the hospital we unloaded the
Governor first and then the President. Then we were instructed to keep
the news media away from the car."---nothing specific about the wounds;
President from the car to the stretcher. As I recall about a 1/4
[quarter] of his head was missing, mostly to the left of the back of the
head. I believe he died instantly from the wound I saw.";
c) 9/3/98 e-mail to Vince Palamara---" the wound was left ear to back of
head, generally."
-----------
Dr. Robert Shaw: did he work for LIFE???---
11/29/63 "Houston Post"---"The assassin was behind him[JFK], yet the
bullet entered at the front of his neck. Mr. Kennedy must have turned to
his left to talk to Mrs. Kennedy or to wave to someone."...
12/6/63 "Life Magazine" article by Paul Mandel:
"the 8 mm. film shows the President turning his body far around to the
right as he waves to someone in the crowd. His throat is
exposed---towards the sniper's nest---just before he clutches it."
(reproduced in "Reasonable Doubt" by Henry Hurt)]
----------
Evelyn Lincoln & Bill Greer: Parkland autopsy???---
Lincoln:
4/21/91 interview with Harry Livingstone for "High Treason 2", pp.
435-437---"…I remember coming into Parkland Hospital, and Dr. Burkley
telling me that he [JFK] had gone, and Jackie was sitting outside of the
place where he was being kept---they were doing the autopsy or whatever
they were doing, and I went up to her and tried to console her."; "I
never looked at any of that [the autopsy materials]. Nothing. I kept it,
and then Bobby [Kennedy] moved it into another room. It was all sealed
up. I never saw any of it…I had no access to it."; "It was a conspiracy.
There was no doubt about that...J. Edgar Hoover was involved in it.";
"Bloody Treason" by Noel Twyman, p. 831 and
"Assassination Science" by James Fetzer,p. 372: 10/7/94 letter to
Richard Duncan---"As for the assassination is concerned [sic] it is my
belief that there was a conspiracy because there were those that
disliked him and felt the only way to get rid of him was to assassinate
him. These five conspirators , in my opinion, were Lyndon B. Johnson, J.
Edgar Hoover, the Mafia, the CIA, and the Cubans in Florida. The House
Intelligence Committee investigation, also, came to the conclusion that
there was a conspiracy."[Lincoln conveyed the same thoughts to Anthony
Summers: see "The Fourth Decade" journal, May 1998 issue, p. 14];
Greer:
"The Asheville (NC) Citizen-Times", 11/6/83 interview of Greer (see
"High Treason 2", p. 572 [Palamara provided this to the author] and "The
Third Alternative-Survivor's Guilt; The Secret Service and the JFK
Murder" by Vince Palamara, p. 22)- "I stayed with (JFK) through the
examination and then through the autopsy, and was with him when they put
his body in the coffin and took him to Air Force One."
---------
Secret Service agent Andy Berger: FBI & CIA at Parkland---
18 H 795: Secret Service agent Andy Berger (who would go on to drive the
hearse containing JFK's body out of Parkland) reported of meeting the
following persons at Parkland Hospital shortly after the assassination:
a. FBI agent Vincent Drain (sent via Hoover!), the same agent who would
go on to accompany Agent Lawson during the transfer of critical
assassination evidence later on that weekend;
b. "a doctor friend of (Drain)" ;
c. an "unidentified CIA agent" who had credentials (like the FBI man
sent by Hoover, how could the CIA agent get to the Dallas hospital so
soon after the murder?);
[see Bill Sloan's "Breaking the Silence", pp. 181-185###; "The Man
Who Knew Too Much", numerous--see esp. pages 570-571 [see also "Who's
Who in the JFK Assassination" by Michael Benson (1993), pp. 40-41])]
### March 1993 interview of Parkland Hospital Chief telephone operator
Phyllis Bartlett ("JFK: Breaking The Silence", p. 185)---"…Ms.
Bartlett…recalled conversing at the time of the assassination with a man
fitting Hugh Howell's description. "My little office was overflowing
with as many as fifty people at once back then," she said, "but I do
remember talking to a short man with a crewcut who identified himself in
that capacity [CIA], and I do believe he said his name was Howell.";
d. an "unidentified FBI agent" [J. Doyle Williams]who did not have
credentials.;
----------
Another "J.D."...and this one ain't Tippit...
Nurse "J.D.", from San Angelo, Texas:
Page 69 of Abigail ("Dear Abby") Van Buren's 1993 book entitled "Where
were you when President Kennedy was Shot?" [all writers were shielded
with anonymity via initials]---"When Kennedy was shot, I was at
Parkland---a student nurse. I heard all the department chiefs being
paged. I saw all the press buses arriving; watched the E.R. grow
crowded; saw Jackie in her bloodstained pink suit. Thirty years later, I
find it hard to believe I was there.";
-----------------------
Brad Parker has learned that the article, "Three Patients at Parkland",
while based on the
original reports made by the Parkland doctors, incorporated subtle
changes which he was
told were made by none other than Dr. Marion Jenkins! EXAMPLE---
WR 526-527 / 17 H 11-12 / CE 392: Dr. Robert McClelland's report written
11/22/63---"…a
massive gunshot wound of the head with a fragment wound of the
trachea…The cause of
death was due to massive head and brain injury from a gunshot wound of
the left temple.";
d) January 1964 Texas State Journal of Medicine article "Three Patients
at Parkland", p.
63---repeats the gist of his 11/22/63 report, but with one change"…a
massive gunshot
wound of the head with a fragment wound of the trachea…The cause of
death was due to
massive head and brain injury from a gunshot wound of the ***right side
of the head.***"
Re: Parkland Hospital circa 1963-1964: "It is adjacent to and is the
major teaching hospital
for the University of Texas Southwestern Medical School. It is staffed
by the faculty of the
medical school and has 150 interns and residents in all medical
specialties." ("Texas State
Journal of Medicine", January 1964, Vol. 60, p. 61)
[i have over 175---see below]
January 1964 Texas State Journal of Medicine article "Three Patients at
Parkland", p.
73---"The [Oswald] operating team consisted of Drs. Shires, McClelland,
Perry, and Jones.
The anesthesia team consisted of Drs. Akin, Jenkins, and Dr. Harlan
Pollock, resident on
anesthesiology."
9/8/98 letter from Dr. Donald Jackson [21 H 171, 205, 215] to Vince
Palamara---"I continue
to be dissatisfied with the explanation of the Warren Commission. The
reason for my
skepticism is linked to discrepancies in descriptions of the Kennedy
wounds between the
Parkland Emergency Room and the autopsy findings. Drs. McClelland,
Perry, and Jenkins
gave accurate descriptions of the wounds as they saw them in the
Emergency Room.";
9/8/98 letter from Dr. William Risk ["JFK: Conspiracy of Silence", p.
183; 3 H 384; January
1964 Texas State Journal of Medicine article "Three Patients at
Parkland", pages 72 and 73
re: involvement in treatment of LHO; "The Search For Lee Harvey Oswald"
by Robert Groden
(1995), p. 202]to Vince Palamara---"...as a physician, I have the
feeling there was more
than one "shooter" and more than one bullet involved because of the
nature of the wounds.
I would suggest that, if you have not already done so, you get a copy of
an article from the
Journal of the Texas Medical Association, January 1964, entitled "Three
Patients at
Parkland." This article is a MEDICAL version of those days. The wounds
described there, to
me, suggest entrance and exit wounds which differ from the "one bullet
theory."
9/98 letter from Dr. Adolph Giesecke to Vince Palamara---"I did not
examine the President's
head and should never have said anything about the wounds. (I testified
to the Warren
Commission that the wound was on the left side. That was obviously
wrong)…I hope you
become convinced that there was only one gunman, Oswald, and all entry
wounds were from
the rear." [!] Ironically, Giesecke included with his letter a photocopy
of the "Three Patients
At Parkland" article that includes medical information that greatly
contradicts this view.
Vince
More irony:
8/26/98 letter from Dr. Malcolm Perry to Vince Palamara---"I did not
inspect the head
wound---I was much too busy. The only person who carefully evaluated the
head wound was
Dr. Kemp Clark, Chief of Neurosurgery (no one could be better
qualified). His testimony (and
mine) is in the Warren Report. His findings are consistent with those
described by Dr.
Hume et al during the autopsy."
PERRY, BEFORE POSNER GOT TO HIM:
a) WR 521-522/ 17 H 6-7/ CE392: report written 11/22/63---"A large wound
of the right
posterior cranium…";
419-427; silent
film clip used in "Reasonable Doubt" (1988), "20/20" (4/92),
etc.]---"There was an entrance
wound in the neck…It appeared to be coming at him…The wound appeared to
be an entrance
wound in the front of the throat; yes, that is correct. The exit wound,
I don't know. It could
have been the head or there could have been a second wound of the head."
(apparently,
based off this conference, the Associated Press dispatch on 11/22/63
stated that Dr. Perry
"said the entrance wound was in the front of the head," while all the AP
wires for this day
stated that JFK had a large hole in the "back" of his head.);
c) UPI report published in the "New York World Telegram & Sun", 11/22/63
(see also the
11/23/63 "San Francisco Chronicle" [Groden's "TKOAP", p. 76])---"There
was an entrance
wound below his Adam's apple. There was another wound in the back of his
head.";
d) Filmed interview by Bob Welch, WBAP-TV/ NBC (Texas News), 11/23/63
[available on the
video "Kennedy In Texas" (1984) and, in edited form, on "The Two
Kennedys" (1976)]---"He
had a severe, lethal wound"; "There was a neck wound anteriorly and a
large wound of his
head in the right posterior area."; "passage of the bullet through the
neck"; "chest tubes
were put in place"; mentions the presence of Drs. Seldin and Bashour
[this was the second
conference that weekend---21 H 265: "this was a final conference to give
reporters who had
missed earlier conferences a chance to hear from (the) medical team and
to answer their
questions."];
AND
DR. KEMP CLARK:
a) WR 516-518/ 17 H 1-3 / CE 392 [undated summary; see also 21 H 150-152
:Clark's
11/23/63 report to Admiral Burkley with the verbatim summary . In
addition, see
"Assassination Science", pp. 416-418: this is an FBI report dated
11/25/63 which includes
the verbatim summary to Burkley from 11/23/63]---"..in the occipital
region of the skull…";
"There was a large wound in the right occipitoparietal region…"; "Both
cerebral and
cerebellar tissue were extruding from the wound.";
President was
bleeding profusely from the back of the head . There was a large (3 x 3
cm) remnant of
cerebral tissue present…there was a smaller amount of cerebellar tissue
present also";
"There was a large wound beginning in the right occiput extending into
the parietal
region…";
c) Parkland Press conference, 11/22/63, 3:16 PM CST ["Assassination
Science", pp. 427]---"
A missile had gone in or out of the back of his head…the back of his
head…I was busy with
his head wound…The head wound could have been either the exit wound from
the neck or it
could have been a tangential wound, as it was simply a large, gaping
loss of tissue.";
-----------------
10/13/98 letter from Dr. Ronald Jones to Vince Palamara----"I recently
testified on August
27, 1998 before the Assassination Review Panel regarding several issues
including these
that you ask. I was located on the left side of President Kennedy, the
region of his left
chest, where I inserted the left chest tube and did a cut down on the
left arm to place an IV
line. As a result I did not have clear view of the back side of the head
wound. President
Kennedy had very thick dark hair that covered the injured area. In my
opinion it was in the
occipital area in the back of the head. Because the scalp partially
covered the wound I
cannot give an exact size of the defect in the skull. There was no
obvious injury to the face.
The wound in the neck was very small, perhaps no larger than 1/4 of an
inch and the wound
in the back of the head was much larger. It was for this reason that I
initially thought that
the injury to the neck was an entrance wound. During the time the
President was at
Parkland Hospital the physicians did not roll him over after he was
pronounced dead and
thus did not appreciate the wound in the back which was discovered at
autopsy."
----------
>From Life, Nov 1983 v6 p48(24) 4 days that stopped America; the Kennedy
assassination, 20 years later. Doris G. Kinney; Marcia Smith; Penny
Ward Moser.----
At 1:15 Doris Nelson was eating lunch with other nurses in
the Parkland Hospital cafeteria. "We were talking
about what would happen if the President was in a car
wreck
or something," she remembers. "I said they'd
never bring him here, they'd take him to a hospital in
town." When Nelson returned to the emergency room, the
phone was ringing. "It was the switchboard operator. she
said, 'Doris, the President's been shot, and he'll be
here in five minutes.' I said, 'Yes, Phyllis [bartlett],
so what else
is new?'" At first, nobody believed Nelson either. "By the
time I got two doctors and the head nurse convinced, they
were rolling him down the hall." Nelson was
emergency room supervisor. "As I looked around, I didn't
see anyone from the higher echelon in the hospital,
so I thought, 'Doris, you've got it.'" Connally came
first.
"He had been pretty badly wounded, and his skin was
real pale. So I just ripped off his shirt to see where the
injuries were. I put him in Trauma Two. Right behind
him came the President. Jackie was walking beside him. A
rose was lying across the stretcher. I put him in
Trauma One." While physicians hovered over the President,
Nelson stood at the door, screening the flow of
nurses, doctors and Secret Service agents. "At one point,
Jackie decided to go into the room when they were
doing a tracheotomy on him. I though it was not in her
best
interest or in the best interest of the patient or the
physicians. I suggested she wait outside. But the agent in
charge said that if she wished to go in, that was her
prerogative." Nelson was impressed by the First Lady.
"Amazed at how poised she was. I asked her if she
would like to remove her gloves and wash her hands, and
she
said, 'No, thank you, I'm fine.' She seemed
almost in a trance.c Nelson herself was on automatic
pilot.
"About an hour after it was over, someone brought
me a cup of coffee. My hands started shaking so, I
couldn't
hold it. That's when it hit me." (Doris Nelson dies
last month of liver cander at 52, shortly after she gave
this interview.)
In the same article, Nurse Nelson showed a LIFE photographer the
location of the head wound:
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/nelson.jpg
For more---
Medical evidence compilation (everything but the kitchen sink):
http://www.mindcushion.com/jfk/MedEvEarly1.html
For everything(!)--
MY NEW BOOK, "JFK: THE MEDICAL EVIDENCE REFERENCE" (339 PAGES), praised
by Dr. Gary Aguilar, Robert Groden, John McAdams, Brad Parker, and many
others, is available for $30
exclusively via "The Last Hurrah Bookshop":
http://members.aol.com/jfkhurrah/
Andrew Winiarczyk
Proprietor
849 W. Third St. #1
Williamsport, Pennsylvania 17701
717/321-1150 (Phone and Fax)
Vince Palamara