Bernice Moore

john the clavius site is well known for degrading jack..at every opportunity it has been hateful it is the type of site that chases normal people away and makes one wonder what kind of mind sets those that do contribute have imo,,but then to each their own there is more to the story re the hsca than that little hateful demeaning clip they have posted which does not tell all.......jack has done hundreds of studies searching for the truth for one and all during the past more than 40 years trying to help find that truth i do not think there is another on this board who can say and prove the same as he has constantly done so.. some did start out writing books doing studies articles ec but then they quit or took many years off carried on with what they wanted to do, the complete resolve was only shown by jack white he kept on while many dragged their feet or took time off..there are many derogative remarks about jack on the web on many sites he has been and still is a main target, how would you like it, and do you think you could take it as he has.for the sake of finding out the truth about the conspiracy and death of jfk. who was i might add your president and your familys as well.....and jack still does.take it and still is....the old saying of walk in another mans shoes comes to mind and until one has been on that other receiving end in reality they do not know of what they speak of imo.. i would also like to see any members studies on clavius that have been done r the assassination of their president or is it just one sided talk on their part so they can throw stones but that is all....like they must put their actions where their mouths are unless there are just a drop in the pan and they have moved quickly on..with no interest in the actual truth of their country....perhaps some have done studies i do not know,,but if so i do wish they would present such also may i ask please that you show myself and others interested any of the studies that you may have completed or are these just your thoughts at this time and perhaps as more time passes and you may learn much more..those perhaps with time may change...no offense meant just that i am interested now in seeing some of your work re the assassination.seeing that you have seen fit to clip and post criticism at someone who has done much for all.....thankyou...b

.

No evidence of any other person shooting in Dealey Plaza (most people said they heard three shots. Not eight, or nine, or ten).

What about the ones who had silencers on their guns?

Kathy C

paul here is but one of the many threads found in a search of the forum...on how many shots in the plaza .b

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...ts+dealey+plaza

b..

WILL THESE HELP AT ALL GIFS THE VERY SLO MO I AM SORRY I DO NOT KNOW WHO MADE IT FOR US..I AM THINKING CHRIS NOT SURE .THE OTHER TWO ARE BY FRANK AQBAT TXS B

Bronson Crop.

thanks robin for reminding me... this is the one in bronson where marilyn sitzmans legs look like elephant trunks and they did not she had very good legs but not in the photo.....b

KATHY I THINK THESE WILL SHOW YOU HE APPEARS QUITE SOLID AND STOCKY.IN BUILD...IN THE LAST HE IS WITH SOME OF GARRISONS MEN I THINK ON HIS WAY INTO COURT..FOR NOW NITE..B

these may be some john... the gif is from bell by rick needham he does such good work...a couple of jim hicks crops//and in willis..and a crop from altgens...there is another taken after of a man coming down the knoll but i cannot find it right now when i do i will post for you.found him it is from duncan i believe or james richards not sure now...take care b..

Bernice, the photo under your gif -- did you notice how puffy that man's sleeves and shoulders are? It's the one with the 2 men and the bus. Is that why you posted it?

Kathy C

THAT'S HICKS THE ONE IN THE LIGHT COLORED JACKET WHO STATED HE WAS THERE FOR RADIO COMMUNICATIONS DO A GOOGLE AND HIS INFO COMES UP... AND HAS WHAT APPEARS TO BE A LUMP COULD BE SOME THINK A RADIO IN HIS BACK POCKET..HE WAS A VERY SOLID INDIVIDUAL SHOULDERS IN SOME WAYS BUILT LIKE A BOXER OR WRESTLER SO I THINK IT IS JUST HIM..I WILL FIND OTHER PHOTOS OF HIM SHOWING YOU.WHAT I MEAN ...PLEASE EXCUSE ALL CAPS TAKE CARE B..I'LL BE BACK OF COURSE CANNOT FIND THEM SHEESH.. B

Hi Bernice,

How about a comparison to this stabilized Nix.

chris

HI CHRIS VERY NICE GIF CAN I SAY AS USUAL YOU SPOIL US..YOU HAVE YOUR OWN FILE FOLDER I HAVE BEEN WORKING ON..ALL TUCKED AWAY THAT I HAVE MENTIONED IN THE PAST SIGNED PACK RAT.. .BUT YOUR WORK IS AND HAS BEEN VERY APPRECIATED MORE FLOWERS FOR YOU FOR ANOTHER...THERE SEEMS TO BE MUCH MOVEMENT GOING ON IMO UP AROUND THE ZAP HEAD AREA...OR SO IT SEEMS TO ME.NOW HERE ARE THREE OF ZAPPY AND SITZ IN NIX IN STILLS..THEY ARE WELL AWFUL IS AS GOOD A WORD AS ANY THERE IS NOT ONE CLEAR SHOWING THEM THAT I HAVE EVER SEEN..FWTAW...YOU ASKED FOR THEM... ONE REPRESENTS JACK'S RESEARCH...I HAVE THESE MARKED IN NIX...BEST B...PLEASE EXCUSE THE CAPS THANKS THAT TIME OF NIGHT..

BILL each box was said to weigh 50 lbs fyi..b

Bernice, I think we can all agree that piling on Jack gets us nowhere, and isn't even very interesting. Now, to the issue at hand.

1. Do you think, as Jack, that the ENTIRE photographic record is suspect, and that every time a photo is shown to support the Zapruder film it should immediately be classified as a fake? i will answer your questions but what i think or do not in no way affects any studies of yours or jack's nor do jack and i always agree...though i admire his work and his stamina shown of his many years spent within..his assassination studies of over 40 yeasrs...done for all of us i might add..to help find the truth.......nor does it affect any studies period as i am just one of very many.. it would seem that.some must learn that and keep it in mind we all are all a one of the many...no i do not believe that every photo is a fake..though within many there are some really screwy things...found...do i believe the crappy zappy film is altered yes..there's one you forgot to ask...

2. Even photos sent out on the wires within hours of the shooting?well now that would depend on if the handling of such is verified and could be traced...

3. Do you really think dozens if not hundreds of photos would be faked to support the Zapruder film, when the Zapruder film was not even supposed to be released to the public? I mean, does that make sense to YOU? i think eventually they thought they would show and earn much moolah from the film possibly..that is what a big part of life was into making money.. is there verification that it was never to be shown...or did some crumb from life mention such..if so i certainly would not buy into it...if they had to alter dozens of whatever they could have done it and would if necessary the gov could and still can do anything surprise...

4. Do you think, as Jack, that self-serving statements made by the Dallas Police should be taken at face value, and that eyewitness statements made hours or even years after an event are infinitely more reliable than photographs taken of that event?I think that some within the dpd were involved..period...many birchers within their ranks who would be pleased to see that liberal so and so bite the dust...the eyewitness testimony i believe them not to say that some 30 years later memory may not have slipped yours will also you will find and all others at times, but with most they stuck to their stories and i believe the insanity of what they saw would impress forever a sense of horrid recall so awful that other than tiny details the overwhelming memory would not be forgotten...too horrible to..

5. If so, do you think the "entire photographic record is fake, or at least suspect" SUSPECT YES...until proven otherwise..argument will ever be accepted by the mainstream media, academia, and even the public at large? if you could pay or hand out the perks to the media, and academia that the gov has for these many years then you would be able to control it the other way any way you may want to...and all would believe anything you wanted them to about the photos assassination etc..the control of such is well documented...

6. If not, would you agree that pushing this argument on people just gaining an interest in the assassination might very well do more harm than good? the truth is never harmful the citizens are not babies that need to be coddled..they have their own minds and should have always had all the truth and therefore to have been able to have decided and ultimately have told their government what they wanted done about it..and to hell with allowing any of those involved to hide behind such excuses..that's imo an excuse...

While these questions have been addressed to Bernice, anyone wishing to respond should do so.

now i would like to read your answers ...up next pat speer...your turn... take call all b..and keep in mind none of this changes a thing...

Was he wearing a hat while filming the assassination?

chris

hi chris he was suppose to be and it does appear that he is in some photos but in marilyn sitzman's tape that she made with her doctor she says he was not and she was looking at the back of his head so your guess is as good as any .best take care ..b

No votes for Orlando Bosch (Avila) as the DCM?

http://www.copweb.be/Orlando%20Bosch%20Avila.htm

cool Dave, never seen those pics before. Thanks for the link.

So what other pics of people with communication devices on them? seems like there was one with a bus in the background. Or is this example said picture, just cropped?

these may be some john... the gif is from bell by rick needham he does such good work...a couple of jim hicks crops//and in willis..and a crop from altgens...there is another taken after of a man coming down the knoll but i cannot find it right now when i do i will post for you.found him it is from duncan i believe or james richards not sure now...take care b..

No, Jerry, it can't be reconciled.

I am looking forward to Jack posting a full res unretouched photo that he states shows it along with his interpretation.

its going to be his usual garb. Everything is faked, everything is altered. But he wants other people in the forum to do research on photos. Pure lunacy. This picture (which is great btw) is perfect photographic evidence that refutes the Chaney riding forward theory.

Well, let the denial start flowing.

john dugan you are entitled to you own opinion that is a given but in your next post you did mention something to the effect there was no attack meant, my words, yet in your first you made the accusation of lunacy... tell you what fellas i called it as it appeared to me and there have been so many denials so quickly all claiming to be innocent ..me thinks though doest protest too much...it appears to me and obviously that i hit a nail on the head somewhere or would not have received those denials so quickly...as they put it the game is afoot so imo do not try to deny it to me,i have watched it for many years and it is very apparant in many threads so go have a search and a good long read..and keeping mind this type of behaviour is far from new...you can fool some of the people some of the time but..and that is my opinion so, go try and convince others you are not making any headway here.but do..take care all...b

imo this does not look good it gives me the impression this thread was planned and started deliberately by the two?? three ?? or more sitting back watching...???waiting...with heads together who now are sitting and waiting to pounce of course no matter what he replies it will be thoroughly pounced on and distorted let alone dennounced ...imo this type of thing does not give any credit to any forum let alone an educational..one....but it will proceed i am sure..but imo it does look bad..that the get at jack has gotten to this stage by some..it makes them to me appear very small....give them a break IMO Jack and do not reply it would serve them right. .and look very good on them... ..b..imo

Bernice, you are correct. It has been going on for many years, with just some new bashers added occassionally.

The games they play are woefully obvious!

Thanks.

Jack

hi jack i have seen it many times down through the years this time i decided to call it as i sees it and will again..rotten ....imo it gives any young person the wrong impression from so called adults doing what they call research..i hope they would know still that there still is a right and a wrong though it seems apparent some adults have lost that sense of decorum.. and as you mention the players come and go. and the reply being so droll and nonsensical...someone described them to me in an email as reminding them of like black spiders sitting waiting to pounce i thought that about covered them, funny though so many have come and gone through the years but your still going...on and on..too bad for them...but good for you it will continue as it always has..you must do something and have very right or they would have ignored you for years which never happens on any board i have seen..in the past nor this one...it must get tiring, though so do take heart my friend...and carry on..as you do and will...cheers. .best b...

altgens contact sheet...b

jack needless to say the clarity is astounding when compared...thanks b

index.urlKeep in mind that Altgens 8 (allegedly the final one on the roll)

is provably taken from the middle of Elm Street. Keep in mind

that Altgens immediately crossed the street where he was

photographed by Cancellare moments later WHILE THE MOTORCADE

WAS STILL GOING BY!

Jack

The message is ready to be sent with the following file or link attachments:

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tom purvis links to w/c maps and info..re altgens .txs

GARY SHAW JOHN STOCKWELL VIDEO ALT...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhdR9-6gcsM

altgens comes into the discussion...b

b from john woods altgens unpublished...b

Bernice...the second link did not work. These other Altgens shots have INTERESTING

IMPLICATIONS!!!!!!

Jack

hi jack it is of the same frames i tried to make it smaller and did but it still led to the paint program i did something wrong..they are the same..sorry bout that...if you need john's em ad let me know...b

http://www.nytimes.com/1995/12/17/us/james...agewanted=print

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

December 17, 1995

James Altgens, Photographer at Kennedy Assassination, Dies at 76

By ERIC PACE

James W. Altgens, a longtime Associated Press staff member known for his photograph of the anguished Jacqueline Kennedy, seconds after her husband's assassination, clambering onto the back of their car while a Secret Service agent moved to her aid, was found dead on Tuesday in his home in Dallas. He was 76.

Mr. Altgens, who was retired, and his wife, Clara, 73, were both found dead at the home, The Associated Press reported. The Dallas Morning News reported on Friday that relatives said the couple had been suffering from the flu but that the police were looking into the possibility that they had died of carbon monoxide poisoning from a defective furnace.

Mr. Altgens, known as Ike, was photographing President Kennedy's motorcade at Dealey Plaza, in downtown Dallas, on Nov. 22, 1963. After taking photographs of the immediate aftermath of the assassination, he telephoned to his news agency and was the first to tell it that the President had been hit by gunfire and gravely wounded. The agency transmitted a news bulletin about the shooting that reported that Mr. Altgens had said he thought the noise was fireworks until he spied blood on the President.

In a dispatch that Mr. Altgens wrote for the agency later that day, he said: "There was a burst of noise, the second one I heard, and pieces of flesh appeared to fly from President Kennedy's car. Blood covered the whole left side of his head. Mrs. Kennedy saw what had happened to her husband. She grabbed him, exclaiming, 'Oh, no!' "

The Associated Press, in its book on the assassination, "The Torch is Passed . . ." which was published soon afterward, republished Mr. Altgens's photograph of the First Lady and the agent with a caption saying it "shows Secret Service Agent Clint Hill leaping toward Mrs. Kennedy as she desperately moves for help in the first moment of horror."

Mr. Altgens was born and reared in Dallas and went to work for the Associated Press in 1938, when he was 19. He retired in 1988.

Mrs. Altgens, the former Clara B. Halliburton, is survived by two sisters, Myrtis Grant and Gladys Gleaves, both of Dallas.

Photos: James W. Altgens's photograph of Jacqueline Kennedy being aidedby a Secret Service agent, Clint Hill, moments after President John F. Kennedy was assassinated in Dealey Plaza in Dallas on Nov. 22, 1963. (Associated Press; Associated Press, 1963)

•Copyright 2010 The New York Times Company

•Home

b..

b from john woods altgens unpublished...b

JACK THESE WERE FROM JOHN WOODS...the second one is too big i will be back...b

QUOTE

There are at least two images attributed to Altgens which he disavowed.

Most notably the one showing Zapruder and Sitzman leaving the pedestal

I'd like to see a citation for this claim. Even if true it was probably a case of mistaken atribution. If the conspirators wanted to fake a photo why atribute it to a known photographer who wasn't in on the plot. There was another photo of 'Mr. Z' and Stizman near the pedestal. Any evidence that eithe rof those were faked?

Len,

I work on this alleged film since the 1970's and have concluded that two out-focus slides were

exposed, developed by the Kodak Company and than disappeared. I have made several efforts

to obtain the original slides via the inidivual who may have these slides.

john

The message is ready to be sent with the following file or link attachments:

Shortcut to: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...=126&t=5708

for now b..

NB, notice how very few photos or x-rays (none of the latter available) there are of the left side of JFK's face post mortem or as the shots were fired. (Devil's Advocate now retired.)

dAVID THERE ARE NO AUTOPSY PHOTOS OF THE LEFT SIDE AS FAR AS I KNOW..TXS ..B

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/altgens.htm

Mr. ALTGENS - Well, it sounded like it was coming up from behind the car from my position--I mean the first shot, and being fireworks--who counts fireworks explosions? I wasn't keeping track of the number of pops that took place, but I could vouch for No. 1, and I can vouch for the last shot, but I cannot tell you how many shots were in between. There was not another shot fired after the President was struck in the head. That was the last shot--that much I will say with a great degree of certainty.

Mr. LIEBELER - What makes you so certain of that, Mr. Altgens?

Mr. ALTGENS - Because, having heard these shots and then having seen the damage that was done on this shot to the President's head, I was aware at that time that shooting was taking place and there was not a shot--I looked--I looked because I knew the shot had to come from either over here, if it were close range, or had to come from a high-powered rifle.

Mr. ALTGENS - Because I didn't see who fired it. After the Presidential car moved a little past me, I took another picture--now, just let me back up here--I was prepared to make a picture at the very instant the President was shot. I had refocused to 15 feet because I wanted a good closeup of the President and Mrs. Kennedy, and that's why I know that it would be right at 15 feet, because I had prefocused in that area, and I had my camera almost to my eye when it happened and that's as far as I got with my camera.

http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z347.jpg

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/shaneyf2.htm

Mr. SPECTER. And how was the ending point of that frame sequence, being No. 334, fixed?

Mr. SHANEYFELT. It was fixed as several frames past the shot that hit the President in the head. Frame 313 is the frame showing the shot to the President's head, and it ends at 334.

http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z334.jpg

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/altgens.htm

Mr. ALTGENS - Yes, sir; and if I had a picture I could probably show you exactly where I was standing. I did show it to Agent Switzer, if that would be of any help to you.

Mr. LIEBELER - Yes; I would like to locate that spot. I show you Exhibit No. 354, which is an aerial view of the area that we have been discussing.

Mr. ALTGENS - This would put me at approximately this area here, which would be about 15 feet from me at the time he was shot in the head--about 15 feet from the car on the west side of the car--on the side that Mrs. Kennedy was riding in the car.

Mr. LIEBELER - You have indicated a spot along the side of Elm Street which I have marked with a No. 3; is that correct?

Mr. ALTGENS - Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER - Is that approximately where you were standing?

Mr. ALTGENS - Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER - Now, when you took the picture of the caravan turning from Main Street to the right on Houston Street, you then ran across this Dealey Plaza?

Mr. ALTGENS - Down this way; yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER - Along the lawn part.

Mr. ALTGENS - Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER - To the point marked No. 3 on Commission Exhibit No. 354?

Mr. ALTGENS - Yes, sir.

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol16_0487a.htm

James Altgens can be seen in Zapruder frame 345 just to the east of Malcolm Summers.

(11-22-63 eyewitness account, presented as an AP dispatch and found online) "There was a burst of noise - the second one I heard - and pieces of flesh appeared to fly from President Kennedy's car. Blood covered the whole left side of his head. Mrs. Kennedy saw what had happened to her husband. She grabbed him exclaiming, "Oh, No!". (11-22-63 announcement on WFAA that the President had been shot) “An Associated Press photographer, James Altgens…reports he saw blood on the President’s head. The AP man said he heard two shots but that he thought someone was shooting fireworks until he saw blood on the President.” (11-22-63 AP report preceding the announcement of Kennedy's death and found in the Frederick Maryland News) "AP Photographer James W. Altgens said he saw blood on the President's head. Altgens said he heard two shots but thought someone was shooting fireworks until he saw the blood on the President. Altgens said he saw no one with a gun." (11-22-63 news bulletin on WBAP, shortly after the AP report) "The Associated Press reports from Dallas that President Kennedy was shot today just as his motorcade left the downtown section. Mrs. Kennedy is said to have jumped up and grabbed her husband and cried "Oh, no!" as the motorcade sped off. Photographer J.W. Altgens of the Associated Press said that he saw blood on the President's head. The photographer said he heard two shots but thought someone was shooting fireworks until he saw the blood on the President. He said he saw no one with a gun." (11-22-63 AP dispatch, as reprinted in Cover-Up) “At first I thought the shots came from the opposite side of the street. I ran over there to see if I could get some pictures...I did not know until later where the shots came from." (5-24-64 article in the New York Herald-Tribune) "I was about 30 feet in front of the President's limousine on Mrs. Kennedy's side. I remember hearing what I thought was a firecracker at the instant I snapped the picture. I was going to make another picture, the one I was really set up for, when I realized what had happened and I froze, aghast." (6-5-64 FBI report, CD 1088 p.1-6) “at about the instant he snapped the picture, he heard a burst of noise which he thought was firecrackers… he does not know how many of these reports he heard…After taking the above photograph…he heard another report which he recognized as a gunshot. He said the bullet struck President Kennedy on the right side of his head and the impact knocked the President forward. Altgens stated pieces of flesh, blood, and bones appeared to fly from the right side of the President’s head and pass in front of Mrs. Kennedy to the left of the Presidential limousine. Altgens stated Mrs. Kennedy grabbed the President and Altgens heard her exclaim “Oh, no!” as the president slumped into her lap. Altgens said he also observed blood on the left side of the President’s head and face.” (7-22-64 testimony before the Warren Commission, 7H517-525) “I made one picture at the time I heard a noise that sounded like a firecracker—I did not know it was a shot, but evidently my picture, as I recall, and it was almost simultaneously with the shot—the shot was just a fraction ahead of my picture, but that much—of course—at that time I figured it was nothing more than a firecracker, because from my position down here the sound was not of such volume that it would indicate to me it was a high velocity rifle…it sounded like it was coming up from behind the car from my position—I mean the first shot, and being fireworks—who counts fireworks explosions? I wasn’t keeping track of the number of pops that took place, but I could vouch for number 1 and I can vouch for the last shot, but I can not tell you how many shots were in between. There was not another shot after the President was struck in the head.” (on the head shot) “up to that time I didn’t know that the President had been shot previously. I still thought up until that time that all I heard was fireworks and that they were giving some sort of celebration to the President by popping these fireworks. It stunned me so at what I saw that I failed to do my duty and make the picture I was hoping to make.”

(Interview with CBS broadcast 6-26-67) “As I was getting ready to make some pictures why I heard this noise-- I thought it was a firecracker explosion—but I just went ahead and made the picture which shows the President right after he was struck by a bullet, struck in the neck, the first shot, and this was the picture that the Warren Report later fixed as being made two seconds after the shot was fired. And as they got in close to me, I was prepared to make the picture—I had my camera about at eye level—that’s when the President was shot in the head. And I do know that the President was still in an upright position, tilted, favoring Mrs. Kennedy. And at the time that he was struck by this blow to the head, it was so obvious that it came from behind. It had to come from behind because it caused him to bolt forward, dislodging him from this depression in the seat cushion, and already favoring Mrs. Kennedy, he automatically fell in that direction.” (No More Silence, p.41-59, published 1998) “I only recall the President hit once that I can vouch for because that first camera shot…made any definite conclusion uncertain. But this particular one where he was hit, the head shot, was obvious to everyone that it was a shooting, not fireworks. I don’t know how many shots there were. If I were guessing, I would figure that was probably the third shot. In other words, he was hit when I was taking the picture, and the fatal shot should have been somewhere around the third shot, and that should have been the last…The tissue, perhaps bone, a lot of fragments, all came my way…But the majority of the mass that was coming from his head came directly like a straight shot out my way on to the left in a straight line. When he fell over into her lap, the blood was on the left side of his face. There was no blood on the right hand side which suggested to me that the wound was more to the left than it was to the right.”

imo this does not look good it gives me the impression this thread was planned and started deliberately by the two?? three ?? or more sitting back watching...???waiting...with heads together who now are sitting and waiting to pounce of course no matter what he replies it will be thoroughly pounced on and distorted let alone dennounced ...imo this type of thing does not give any credit to any forum let alone an educational..one....but it will proceed i am sure..but imo it does look bad..that the get at jack has gotten to this stage by some..it makes them to me appear very small....give them a break IMO Jack and do not reply it would serve them right. .and look very good on them... ..b..imo