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Bernice Moore

JFK
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Posts posted by Bernice Moore

  1. BARB AND DOUG YOU HAVE MENTIONED FERGUSON'S DOCUMENT THAT PAMELA RECEIVED I FINALLY FOUND IT IN STUFF IT APPEARS TO BE WHEN SHE FIRST POSTED ABOUT IT.FOR YOU....FWIW...B

    Subject: Subject: The JFK Limo at the White House Garage - Ford Memo 12/18/63

    Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 19:25:52 -0500

    From: Pamela McElwain <pamelam@primenet.com>

    Organization: Die Zauberflote

    Newsgroups: startext.jfk

    I''m including below a typed copy of a document that was sent to me

    some time ago on a general request from the National Archives for data

    on the limo SS-100-X. I am not finding a document number for it, am

    requesting that from NARA, but do find numbers for two similar

    documents, also inter-company Ford memos regarding "Changes in the

    White House 'Bubbletop'". They are 180-10112-10188 and

    180-10505-10086. Both are also 2-page memos, and their status is

    "Postponed in full".

    This document is both puzzling and fascinating to me, because it

    indicates that the original intent of the SS was to put the limo back

    into service as quickly as possible. It is quite pathetic to think of

    this lonely man, Vaughn Fergusun, trying to clean the blood away from

    the seat cushion buttons with his pen knife, and trying to clean the

    carpet. For some reason (well the SS DID need a good parade car for

    the President) the fact that an assassination had just occurred in

    this vehicle, and that even if it could be put back into service,

    driving in it might not bring good luck, was no deterrence to

    expediently correcting the damage to the car; this decision had to

    have been made made at the time the limo was returned to the White

    House garage.

    It was, then, at some time subsequent to this memo, (which relates to

    the days immediately following the assassination, though written on

    December 18th), that the decision was made to send the car to Ohio on

    December 12 for rebuilding as an armored vehicle.

    Also note Ferguson's description of the windshield, its removal, and

    the sequence of action on the limo lap robes. The 'lap robes' were

    blankets carried in the side pockets of the rear of the limo, used

    when the weather was cool, yet the top down, to keep the passengers

    warm.

    (Markley and Ferguson were Ford Company employees; Morgan Geis was

    SAIC of the White House Garage. btw, it is odd that SS-100-X was

    referred to as the WH 'Bubbletop' as the car usually referred to by

    that name was the Eisenhower Lincoln. And the plastic top on SS-100-X

    that was referred to as the 'bubbletop' was the only top for this car;

    it had a 'leatherette' cover that was placed over it to make it look

    like an enclosed sedan. This was what was done at Parkland Hospital,

    for example.)

    Ford Motor Company Washington Office

    Intra-Company Communication December 18, 1963

    TO: R.W. Markley, JR.

    FROM: F. Vaughn Ferguson

    Re: Changes in White House "Bubbletop"

    On November 23rd, the day following the President's assassination, I

    went to the White House garage in response to a telephone call to my

    home from the Secret Service. When I arrived about 10:00 a.m., the

    White House "Bubbletop" was in a stall in the garage with two Secret

    Service men detailed to guard it. A canvas cover was over the unit. I

    was permitted only to see the windshield of the car and then only

    after the guards had received permission from higher ranking Secret

    Service personnel. Examination of the windshield disclosed no

    perforation, but substantial cracks radiating a couple of inches from

    the center of the windshield at a point directly beneath the mirror.

    I was at the garage only about one hour that day, but while I was

    there Morgan Geis contacted the Secret Service and told them to have

    me make arrangements to replace the windshield.

    The following day, when I returned to the garage, the unit was no

    longer under guard. The Secret Service had cleaned the leather

    upholstery the day before, but underneath the upholstery buttons dried

    blood was still in evidence. On my own ititiative, I pulled up these

    upholstery buttons and with a knife removed the caked blood around

    them. At this time, there was a heavy odor of dried blood still

    noticeable. There was a large blood spot on the floor covering which

    the Secret Service had not been able to remove, but I did nothing

    further about it that day.

    In response to my call of November 25, personnel from Arlington Glass

    came to the White House garage that same day to replace the

    windshield. The Arlington Glass personnel advised Morgan Geis and me

    that removal would cause additional damage to the windshield but Geis

    told them to go ahead and remove it anyway. The Arlington Glass

    personnel did remove it by putting their feet against the inside of

    the windshield and pushing it out. In doing so, additional cracks

    formed (downward to the bottom of the windshield). A Mr. Davis of the

    Secret Service then took the windshield and put it in the stockroom

    under lock and key and I have not seen it since.

    That same day, November 25, I tried to clean the blood spot on the

    carpet with only moderate success. Late that afternoon I called Hess

    and Eisenhardt who agreed to send new carpeting including masking and

    binding. It was also that day that Morgan Geis called my attention to

    a dent in the chrome topping of the windshield at a point just above

    the rear view mirror and asked why I hadn't fixed it while I was at

    it. I told him that my experience with chrome had been that in trying

    to remove a dent of that size lead only to additional marks that

    further marred the trim. In addition, the dent is not visible when the

    top is on the unit.

    On November 26th, late in the afternoon after I had left, the carpet

    masking and binding arrived at the garage from Hess and Eisenhardt.

    When I got to the garage on the 27th and was told that the carpeting

    material was in, I contacted Morgan Geis who arranged with the White

    House upholsery man to receive the metal piece containing the carpet,

    remove the old carpeting, replace it with the new carpet, and return

    the piect to me for reinstallation in the "Bubbletop." This

    upholsterer did not complete the job until late Friday afternoon the

    29th.

    On the morning of December 2nd, the re-carpeted piece was delivered to

    me by a Secret Service agent named Davis and I then reinstalled it.

    Also on the 2nd of December I noticed that the two lap robes had a few

    blood spots on them, but, more than that, were soiled from handling

    and required cleaning. The White House chauffeurs were detailed to

    take the lap robes to Fort Myer for cleaning. These persons remained

    with the lap robes until they were cleaned and returned the same day.

    I think this represents a complete account of changes made in the

    "Bubbletop" since November 22.

    F.V. Ferguson

    New photo of second windshield on limousine today in Dearborn, MI. NARA

    doc. 180-10120-10021,Photo of SS100X at Parkland with bucket, CE353,

    photo of SS100X today, Jackie's WC testimony, Altgens windshield,

    info on "22 November 1963" at my website.

    http://www.primenet.com/~pamelam/jfk.html

    Photos of sites relevant to Mozart's life in Salzburg and Paris at my

    linked Mozart site.

    F

    SORRY THE LINK IS BROKEN I THINK IT IS IN THE MARSH COLLECTION UNDER THE LIMO HEADING...ON KEN RAHN'S SITE

    http://karws.gso.uri.edu/ DARN THE LINK TO HIS HOME PAGE FINALLY CAME UP AND IS BROKEN ALSO... :o^_^B):) BUT IS ENABLED GOT ONE RIGHT SHEESH..... :o THE LINKS ARE WORKING TODAY YAHOO :lol:

    I CANNOT GET INTO HIS SITE...THE GREMLIN IS AT IT AGAIN...BLAH...

    http://karws.gso.uri.edu/Marsh/Limousine/windshield.txt

  2. INTERESTING PARTS OF WEISBERG'S FBI/ SS BOOK (NO INDEX): "Whitewash II- the FBI-SS Cover-up" by Weisberg- Marina- pp. 9,11,15,21,23; LHO/Tippit murder(Police radio logs/tapes)- pp. 25-27,29,35; another bullet- p. 38; Brennan- p. 88; autopsy- pp. 110, 113-117; FBI/SS: 3 bullets/hits- p. 123; Sibert and O'Neill- pp. 124-125; Zapruder film- pp. 134 and 141; Kelley report 11/28/63- pp. 166-167; Greer- p. 175; Phil Willis- pp. 202-204; shooting- p. 216; comments- pp. 224-225 ~ Secret Service agent Richard Green on CNN 10/29/94 after "assassination" attempt on President Clinton: " Green said that no serious assassination attempt is made without a diversion( He also said that the attempt is made from 2 or 3 sides). What on earth is he referring to except Dallas, since I don't know of any attempts on Reagan or Ford made with a diversion. I really think Agent Green slipped up"-

    http://karws.gso.uri.edu/Marsh/Limousine/limo-URL.htm

    b..

  3. That's a very poor detail FBI photo, but unlike the other one it has been oriented so that the oval is seen headon so it's a circle and within that circle are what appears a matching star pattern of straight cracks. These are the initial cracks. The spread of them was due to a couple of factors. The drive that continued from then saw a spreading crack pattern but because the supercooled liguid has regained its normal temperarure it no longer cracks according to the forces applied during the initial impact but snakes according to whatever forces are acting rather than any particular weakness. THEN came the removal of the screen and in doing so the normal practice is to push from the inside and to do that without exacerbating and creating new crack patterns is almost unavoidable possibly with the best of intention highly unlikely. So, a circle was drawn first. The orientation of the screen for the circle to be there...?

    b

  4. [.

    Were there .38 bullets in the pistol found on Oswald at the theater?

    In addition, after being searched once, interrogated once and placed in a lineup, four .38 bullets were found in Oswald's pocket.

    How was that possible?

    Were these bullets ever checked, as were the 6.5 shells, as to what batch they were part of?

    Since bullets can't be purchased individually, they are bought in boxes that are part of a case, that are part of a batch that can be traced, as were the 6.5 bullets traced to the USMC in 1948.

    Were the bullets found in Oswald's pocket ever traced to their original source?

    BK

    I think the answer to that begs close scrutiny.

    is this information of any use.. :rolleyes: .b

    Revolver Bullets

    Four bullets were recovered from the body of Officer Tippit. In Nicol's opinion one of the four bullets could be positively identified with test bullets fired from V510210 revolver, and the other three could have been fired from that revolver. In Cunningham's opinion all four bullets could have been fired from the V510210 revolver, but none could be positively identified to the revolverthat is, in his opinion the bullets bore the revolver's rifling characteristics, but no conclusion could be drawn on the basis of microscopic characteristics. Cunningham did not conclude that the bullets had not been fired from the revolver, since he found that consecutive bullets fired in the revolver by the FBI could not even be identified with each other under the microscope. The apparent reasons for this was that while the revolver had been rechambered for a . 38 Special cartridge, it had not been rebarreled for a . 38 Special bullet. The barrel was therefore slightly oversized for a . 38 Special bullet, which has a smaller diameter than a . 38 S. & W. bullet. This would cause the passage of a . 38 Special bullet through the barrel to be erratic, resulting in inconsistent microscopic markings.

    Based on the number of grooves, groove widths, groove spacing, and knurling on the four recovered bullets, three were copper-coated lead bullets of Western-Winchester manufacture (Western and Winchester are divisions of the same company), and the fourth was a lead bullet of Remington-Peters manufacture. This contrasts with the four recovered cartridge cases, which consisted of two Remington-Peters and two Westerns. There are several possible explanations for this variance: (1) the killer fired five cartridges, three of which were Western-Winchester and two of which were Remington-Peters; one Remington-Peters bullet missed Tippit; and a Western-Winchester cartridge case and the Remington-Peters bullet that missed were simply not found. (2) The killer fired only four cartridges, three of which were Western-Winchester and one of which was Remington-Peters; prior to the shooting the killer had an expended Remington- Peters cartridge case in his revolver, which was ejected with the three Western-Winchester and one Remington-Peters cases; and one of the Western-Winchester cases was not found. (3) The killer was using hand-loaded ammunition, that is, ammunition which is made with used cartridge cases to save money; thus he might have loaded one make of bullet into another make of cartridge case. This third possibility is extremely unlikely, because when a cartridge is fired the cartridge case expands, and before it can be reused it must be resized. There was, however, no evidence that any of the four recovered cartridge cases had been resized.

    http://www.geocities.com/jfkinfo/app10.htm#p5

    NARA Record Number: 124-10371-10120

    ADMIN FOLDER-A11: HSCA ADMINISTRATIVE FOLDER, OUTGOING COMMISSION FOLDER VOLUME V

    http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...p;relPageId=104

  5. [.

    Were there .38 bullets in the pistol found on Oswald at the theater?

    In addition, after being searched once, interrogated once and placed in a lineup, four .38 bullets were found in Oswald's pocket.

    How was that possible?

    Were these bullets ever checked, as were the 6.5 shells, as to what batch they were part of?

    Since bullets can't be purchased individually, they are bought in boxes that are part of a case, that are part of a batch that can be traced, as were the 6.5 bullets traced to the USMC in 1948.

    Were the bullets found in Oswald's pocket ever traced to their original source?

    BK

    I think the answer to that begs close scrutiny.

    is this information of any use.. :rolleyes: .b

    Revolver Bullets

    Four bullets were recovered from the body of Officer Tippit. In Nicol's opinion one of the four bullets could be positively identified with test bullets fired from V510210 revolver, and the other three could have been fired from that revolver. In Cunningham's opinion all four bullets could have been fired from the V510210 revolver, but none could be positively identified to the revolverthat is, in his opinion the bullets bore the revolver's rifling characteristics, but no conclusion could be drawn on the basis of microscopic characteristics. Cunningham did not conclude that the bullets had not been fired from the revolver, since he found that consecutive bullets fired in the revolver by the FBI could not even be identified with each other under the microscope. The apparent reasons for this was that while the revolver had been rechambered for a . 38 Special cartridge, it had not been rebarreled for a . 38 Special bullet. The barrel was therefore slightly oversized for a . 38 Special bullet, which has a smaller diameter than a . 38 S. & W. bullet. This would cause the passage of a . 38 Special bullet through the barrel to be erratic, resulting in inconsistent microscopic markings.

    Based on the number of grooves, groove widths, groove spacing, and knurling on the four recovered bullets, three were copper-coated lead bullets of Western-Winchester manufacture (Western and Winchester are divisions of the same company), and the fourth was a lead bullet of Remington-Peters manufacture. This contrasts with the four recovered cartridge cases, which consisted of two Remington-Peters and two Westerns. There are several possible explanations for this variance: (1) the killer fired five cartridges, three of which were Western-Winchester and two of which were Remington-Peters; one Remington-Peters bullet missed Tippit; and a Western-Winchester cartridge case and the Remington-Peters bullet that missed were simply not found. (2) The killer fired only four cartridges, three of which were Western-Winchester and one of which was Remington-Peters; prior to the shooting the killer had an expended Remington- Peters cartridge case in his revolver, which was ejected with the three Western-Winchester and one Remington-Peters cases; and one of the Western-Winchester cases was not found. (3) The killer was using hand-loaded ammunition, that is, ammunition which is made with used cartridge cases to save money; thus he might have loaded one make of bullet into another make of cartridge case. This third possibility is extremely unlikely, because when a cartridge is fired the cartridge case expands, and before it can be reused it must be resized. There was, however, no evidence that any of the four recovered cartridge cases had been resized.

    http://www.geocities.com/jfkinfo/app10.htm#p5

    NARA Record Number: 124-10371-10120

    ADMIN FOLDER-A11: HSCA ADMINISTRATIVE FOLDER, OUTGOING COMMISSION FOLDER VOLUME V

    http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...p;relPageId=104

  6. Tosh see # 30 below shards of glass Dr/David Mantik...b

    http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org/fetzerexpandedx.htm

    30 Even the mortician observed that the deceased had a massive defect to the back of his head, a small entry wound to the right temple, several small puncture wounds to the face, and a wound to the back about five to six inches below the collar. (See, for example, Fetzer (2003), pp. 8-9.) This information should have been easily available. Even The Warren Report describes the holes in the shirt and jacket he was wearing as "5 3/8 inches below the top of the collar" in the jacket and as "5 3/4 inches below the top of the collar" in the shirt, contradicting its own declared conclusions (Warren 1964, p. 92). David W. Mantik, M.D., Ph.D., believes that the small puncture wounds were caused by shards of glass when the bullet that hit his throat passed through the windshield.

  7. Bernice,

    Thanks. It is apparent from Foster's statement that a train passed soon after the shooting. White simply had the train arrive sooner to coincide with the shooting and block his view of it.

    your welcome mr common sense sheesh i do now expect more in the future really...take care b.. :blink::rolleyes::lol:

  8. ____________________________________________

    Bernice,

    Thanks for posting all the great photos.

    --Thomas

    you are very welcome....for as long as they are up..they take up much resources i now try to leave for awhile then go through cleaning some out for the sake of not tying up the photo space..so snaggle while they still are available if interested...b

  9. 186) Mortician Thomas Evan Robinson: re throat wound..

    a) HSCA taped interview conducted by Andy Purdy and Jim Conzelman 1/12/77 [RIF#189-10089-10178; drawing: 180-10089-10179---see also "Killing Kennedy" by H.E.L., p. 345 , "Bloody Treason" by Noel Twyman, p. 240, and "Cover-Up" by Stewart Galanor, p. 34]---Purdy: "Approximately where was this wound located?" "Directly behind the back of his head." Purdy: "Approximately between the ears or higher up?" "No, I would say pretty much between them.": Robinson’s drawing depicts a defect directly in the central, lower rear portion of the skull. Purdy: "Could you tell how large the opening had been caused by the bullets?" "A good bit of the bone had been blown away. There was nothing there to piece together, so I would say probably about [the size of] a small orange." Purdy: "Could you give us an estimate of inches and the nature of the shape?" "Three." Purdy: "And the shape?" "Circular." Purdy: "Was it fairly smooth or fairly ragged?" "Ragged."; "I remember the bones of the skull and face badly shattered." Purdy: "Where on the face were they shattered, which of the bones?" "You cannot see that from the outside. This is looking through the opening that the physicians had made at the back of the skull."; "I can remember the probe. The probe of all this whole area. It was about an eighteen-inch piece of metal that we used." Purdy; "Do you feel they probed the head or they probed the neck?" "It was at the base of the head where most of the damage was done, the things that we had to worry about."; "Somehow I feel like there was some-thing found in the thorax…I think that they found a piece of metal, a piece of bullet."; did not see any small wound of entry in the back of the head; de-scribed a "nasty looking" tracheotomy; He also said there was a little wound, described as a hole of about a quarter-inch in diameter, on the right side of the forehead up near the hairline. Robinson said that he "…probably put a little wax in it."; Purdy: "Were you the one that was responsible for closing these wounds in the head?" "Well, we all worked on it. Once the body was em-balmed arterially and they brought a piece of heavy duty rubber, again to fill this area (area in the back of the head)…" Purdy: "O.K., you had to close the wound in the back of the head using rubber…Were there any other wounds on the head other than the little one in the right temple area, and the big one in the back?" "That's all." [!]; "Putting the head into the pillow of the casket would have hidden everything."; Purdy: "You said later, when you read some things about the assassination or the autopsy, you heard or read some-things [sic] which struck you as incorrect. What would those things be?" "The time the people moved (autopsy). The body was taken…and the body never came…lots of little things like that.";

    jfk medical reference part 3 bethesda palamara

    http://www.assassinationresearch.com/v4n2/v4n2part3.pdf

    b

  10. The police officer (Foster or White, I forget which) who was stationed on the west side of the underpass over Elm Street was in a position to see a south knoll shooter. So you know what? He testified that a freight train was passing at the time of the assassination, so he couldn't see anything to the east (or of course to the south) at the time of the shooting.

    Why would this officer testify to a passing train that everyone knows wasn't there? The only reason I can think of is that he was protecting himself. He saw something at the south end of the underpass, but he wanted the conspirators to know that he didn't see it. So he invented a train that blocked his view.

    and ron this makes perfect sense what common sense coming into this ...oh my... :ph34r: b re the list of peoples below i have read both that 11 and 14 were rrworkers...fwtw..

  11. In your picture: Notice the upper slight curve in Elm Street. The Limo had turned slightly to the left with the street, putting it a few degrees to the south.., not due west as some have claimed. The Limo was pointing directly toward the south side of the underpass. Where was JFK facing at that moment? If he had also turned his head slightly to his left this would line up with the alleged south side kill shot and the windshield hole.

    would that not be at the altgens...see below altgens then and now and there's the curve tosh...and martin hindrich's coloured..version...b

  12. imo doug and ]all that would be a great source if we could have threads of both tosh's info of a south side of elm thread and this one to continue..there has been much information being released and offered by doug in this thread am i now surprised it has been halted to some degree..no not in the least it really was going too well, seems that happens not faultng anyone but that does seem to happen often...please continue tosh if possible.and if you do want your information out there if not it cannot be looked into any further can it..??.tosh thanks for your information it is always of great interest to many others....why pack up your bags so quickly AND LEAVE STAY AND stART A NEW THREAD COPY AND PASTE all YOUR INFO AND TEACH THOSE WHO DO WANT TO ACCESS SUCH, or let them down, your call..best b..please excuse the caps and muddled typing..txs

    Bernice, where it is circled is erroneous to me. To our left stand 2 men it seems. Also, there seems to be a man south and on the level of the top of the underpass. It's either a man or it's the top of the lamp pole.

    Kathy C PS KATHY THE CIRCLED INFO MEN ABOVE WAS DONE BY TOSH SOME YEARS AGO IN THE CROP OF THE CANCELLARE SO THERE YOU GO WHAT DO I KNOW NADA...B

    KATHY THE CIRCLED WHATEVER ARE NOT OF MY DOING TO ME IN FACT I ALWAYS THOUGHT IT WAS A LIMB I AM POSTING SOME OF WHAT HAS BEEN GATHERED DOWN THROUGH THE YEARS HOPEFULLY SOME MAY BRING FURTHER INFORMATION ABOUT AS IT MAY POSSIBLY JAR SOME PEOPLES MEMORIES...AND PERK UP OTHERS THINKING CAPS..TO STEP IN WITH THEIR INFORMATION..SO MUCH HAS BEEN LOST OVER THE YEARS AS WEB SITES FALTERED OTHERS BOUGHT UP AND THE WORK DISAPPEARED SOME DELIBERATELY IMO...SO I TRIED TO GATHER AS MUCH AS I COULD RE THIS INFO HOPING SOME DAY IT MAY HELP BRING SOMETHING TO LIGHT ALONG WITH THE VERY THOROUGH AND GOOD WORK OF DOUG AND ALSO TOSH'S WHO HAS TRIED MANY TIMES TO GET HIS OUT FOR ALL.SO SAVE WHAT YOU CAN,IF INTERESTED EVENTUALLY IT IS GONE AND NEVER SEEN AGAIN THIS AREA HAS ALWAYS BEEN TO ME ONE OF SUCH... .B

  13. THANKS KATHY...''Note: Each time this south knoll information comes up; the thread is turned back to the "Badgeman" and other north side of Plaza matters and those theories and doctored photos. Why is it so important not to really look into that area of the south side? Each time that area is brought up it is past by or diverted into something else not related. It was the same in 1964, and again in 1974, and again in 1978, 81, 91, and now 2006. It was the same with the FBI, Secret Service, Congressional and Senate investigators of many years ago. It seems to be very important to focus on the North side and by pass the South. Why? Is it perhaps that is the area that best confirms the fake story played by the government of where the shooters or assassins really were?

    Also note. I have put out a lot of information these past few years and months; most of it backed up with documentation and preponderance of evidence. None of that information is addressed directly. Each time it is moved away from and something else is put in place to investigate. What really happens is I get investigated and threated by federal sources, including IRS. I find this strange if we say we are truly looking at all available information in reference to who shot Kennedy. If we say we want the truth-- then should we not really look into this south area with a fine tooth comb?''

    Tosh, MANY THANKS MANY FOR STEPPING BACK IN..I THINK MANY APPRECIATE YOU DOING SO FOR THE SAKE OF THE RESEARCH AGAIN TAKE CARE..B

    B

  14. imo doug and ]all that would be a great source if we could have threads of both tosh's info of the south side of elm thread and this one to contine..there has been much information being released and offered by doug in this thread am i now surprised it has been mucked up..no not in the least it really was going too well, seems that always happens not faultng anyone but that does seem to happen often...please continue tosh if possible.and if you do want your information out there if not it cannot be looked into any further can it..??.tosh thanks for your information it is always of great interest to many others....why pack up your bags so quickly AND LEAVE STAY AND stART A NEW THREAD COPY AND PASTE YOUR INFO AND TEACH THOSE WHO DO WANT TO ACCESS YOUR INFO, or let them down, your call..best b..

    Bernice:

    I agree about Tosh I just do not want to lose focus on the thread I have going. That is why I opened a new thread to begin with. Plumlee is extremely important! I hope he will watch the you-tube presentation and see what a sniper would have viewed from the south side of the underpass with my video. I do want to get the questions I addressed in my long posting and I believe the dialog and responses will be important.

    Take care,

    Doug

    Bernice...Threads are ALL MUCKED UP on purpose by certain persons who are here not to enlighten but to obfuscate.

    I name no names. By their fruits ye shall know them.

    Jack

    YES JACK I KNOW OF THE MUCKERS CLUB AND THEIR ROTTEN FRUIT...THANKS KATHY FOR GOING TO THE TROUBLE Of ARRANGING A SEPARATE THREAD IMO THAT'S GREAT SO As the separate but similar in some areas of information can be perused.to see what gels and comes together.....b again excuse caps many thanks... ^_^

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