David Von Pein
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Everything posted by David Von Pein
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Okay, Sandy. Believe what you want. But I disagree. But can you give me your opinion as to why the alleged plotters were so incompetent when it came to pretty much everything relating to the alleged "phony" rifle purchase? E.G., Wrong paper stock used for the money order. No bank stamps. The rifle order and money order go from Dallas to Chicago in 24 hours, which is an impossibility if we're to believe the conspiracy theorists.* They "shipped" the WRONG RIFLE, per DiEugenio and other CTers (sending "Hidell" a 40-inch Carcano instead of the 36-incher that "Hidell" ordered via the American Rifleman magazine ad). Why did they manufacture that little piece of confusion if the ENTIRE rifle transaction is nothing but a fantasy from the ground up---including ALL of the paperwork? They forgot the proper legal forms for the rifle (which CTers insist should have been included with the rifle shipment; although Jean Davison in the past has made it quite clear, via documentation, that such a legal requirement only applied to HANDGUNS in 1963, not rifles). * Incredibly, however, a letter that was mailed in January 1952 could go all the way across the country overnight--from California to New York. (Audio below.) NEXT-DAY AIR MAIL SERVICE -- IN 1952! -
Geesh. I can't believe I actually need to talk Jimmy through this easy stuff. The words in quotation marks that Hank S. quoted are my words, which is obvious if you follow this thread for the last couple of pages. Sandy quoted me from my website. Hank then quoted Sandy who was quoting me. Still need another blueprint, Jim?
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Of course I knew who Hank was quoting. He was quoting ME, not you. Just like I said in Post 99. The "quote block" shows Hank was quoting from one of Sandy Larsen's posts. But Sandy was quoting me. And Hank was really responding to something that *I* wrote, not something Sandy wrote.
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That sentence of mine that Hank quoted is perfectly accurate based on DiEugenio's statements and written comments over the years about the evidence in the JFK and Tippit cases. But I did not place quote marks around this 20th item on my "Stupid Things" list. I was merely saying that you (James DiEugenio) BELIEVE all of those crazy things. And you do. Without doubt. I was very careful to put in only things that I *know* you believe. And this 20th item is one of them (otherwise you wouldn't believe in Oswald's innocence in BOTH the Kennedy & Tippit murders).... [Quoting DVP:] 20.) All of the physical evidence that leads to Lee Oswald in the two Nov. 22 murders (JFK's and Tippit's) has been faked, planted, manipulated, or manufactured in order to falsely incriminate a patsy named Lee Harvey. [End DVP Quote.] I'll be happy to rewrite that 20th item, Jim, if you can tell me JUST ONE single piece of evidence that leads to Oswald that you think was NOT faked, tainted, or manufactured. Is there one such piece? I don't think there is. Who's "Hank T."? Hank's last name is Sienzant. You're having a hard time with names today.
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Jim, Hank was quoting me, not you, from my "22 Stupid Things" webpage.... jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2013/01/dvp-vs-dieugenio-part-81.html#The-Stupid-Things-James-DiEugenio-Believes
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I've speculated in the past about this sort of thing (and, yes, I *am* only speculating and it should identified as such, because I have no proof of this).... I'm wondering if a document (or deposit ticket) representing the bulk transfer of money orders from, in this case, First National Bank in Chicago to the FRB in Chicago, would be the only document that would need to be stamped or marked or endorsed by First National? ~shrug~ (Bernice Moore thinks otherwise, however.) From THIS EDU. FORUM DISCUSSION IN MARCH 2011.... DAVID VON PEIN SAID: It's my feeling, too, that in many cases where a large, bulk deposit is made which includes many checks and money orders (which would certainly have been the case with the $13,000+ deposit made by Klein's Sporting Goods on March 13, 1963) that it's quite possible that only the DEPOSIT TICKET for the entire bulk amount gets stamped by the bank after it is received. That last part about "bulk deposits" with a lot of checks and money orders shouldn't be too hard to verify at some point in the future. (Are there any bank employees posting at this forum?) BERNICE MOORE SAID: I did work in a bank back then, but here in Canada. .... I do not know if the process was the same, in the states, but here every cheque, money order, [or] whatever, in a deposit was stamped, as it was also with the stamp of the bank where it was first presented, on the back. fwtw.
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More stupidity on the part of your bumbling idiotic patsy framers, right Jimmy? They couldn't even get the right "card stock" to mimic a real U.S. Postal Money Order. What a band of goofs those plotters were. But thank goodness we've got super sleuths like Armstrong, Josephs, Larsen, and DiEugenio on the scene now to figure all this out. Otherwise, Dulles, Ferrie, Shaw, and the stumblebum who used the wrong paper for CE788 would never have been found out and exposed!
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Okay, Jimmy. Ten-Four and Wilco. One-Adam-12 out. jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2011/04/dvp-vs-dieugenio-complete-series.html
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And let's not forget about the fact that Lee Harvey Oswald's handwriting is on the money order in question -- the original of which was examined by questioned documents expert Alwyn Cole of the Treasury Department..... MELVIN EISENBERG -- "Mr. Cole, I now hand you an item consisting of a U.S. postal money order in the amount of $21.45, payable to Klein's Sporting Goods, from "A. Hidell, P.O. Box 2915, Dallas, Texas." For the record I will state that this money order was included with the purchase order in Exhibit 773 which has just been identified, and was intended and used as payment for the weapon shipped in response to the purchase order, 773. I ask you, Mr. Cole, whether you have examined this money order for the purpose of determining whether it was prepared by the author of the standards?" ALWYN COLE -- "Yes, sir." MR. EISENBERG -- "What was your conclusion, Mr. Cole?" MR. COLE -- "It is my conclusion that the handwriting on this money order is in the hand of the person who executed the standard writing [i.e., Lee Harvey Oswald]." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Looks like we can add the name of Alwyn Cole to James DiEugenio's list of falsehood tellers. Right, Jim? (Or does Cole already show up as #1,846 on your existing list?)
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Yeah, Jim, CD75 is just another lie, right? This one being told by the THREE different Chicago FBI agents who attached their names to that report in CD75 -- Gale T. Johnson, James E. Hanlon, and Philip R. Wanerus. So there are three more scheming falsehood tellers for Jimmy to add to his ever-growing list of falsehood tellers (can't say the L-word at this forum, for some silly reason).
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Warren Commission Document No. 75, Page 668, is an FBI report that says a money order for $21.45 was sent to the Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago on March 16, 1963 (next-to-last paragraph).... http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10477#relPageId=672 Sure looks like the Hidell money order entered the federal banking system to me.
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And just what were the other two or three, Jim? Please provide the links. Holy St. Mary! What a beautiful place for a "Pot/Kettle" icon here! (Somebody get me one--quick!) CTers have the patent on sending people down garden paths. And they own another patent on sending perfectly innocent people to the figurative gallows based on NOTHING but suspicion, rumor, and gut feeling --- like, say, Ruth Paine, Michael Paine, Linnie Randle, Wesley Frazier, Bob Frazier, Allen Dulles, and M.N. McDonald, among dozens of others connected in some way to the events of November 22, 1963. Jim D. surely must have changed his middle name to "Irony". How could it possibly be anything else? Well, James, fortunately for all of us, you aren't steering the ship here at The Education Forum. You, Jim, should be very familiar with those two initials -- BS -- what with the fact you believe in every one of these incredibly ridiculous things.... jfk-archives/dvp-vs-dieugenio-part-81/The-Stupid-Things-James-DiEugenio-Believes
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Totally untrue. I merely saw Jean's post at the McAdams forum and decided to re-post it here. Jean wasn't "passing" anything on to ME specifically at all. Jean, in fact, is a current member of this forum and she can post here anytime she wants. She's been a member since August 22, 2004, as we can see here in her profile.... http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showuser=1129 So she certainly doesn't need me (or anyone else) to serve as a go-between when it comes to posting at this forum. Time for DiEugenio to wipe a little egg off of his face now. I had to do that yesterday when I fully admitted I was wrong about the "punch holes" topic. Will Jim do likewise now and retract his wholly inaccurate quote cited above?
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Sure. There must have been a "heavier hand" being applied by both Lee Oswald (whose written words are bleeding through just a little bit on the CE788 money order) and the postal employee who stamped the M.O. in the lower right-hand corner. More pressure on the pen or the inked stamp means more ink being absorbed by the paper. Hence, it bleeds through to the other side. If the 1961 money order mentioned earlier by John Armstrong has no bleed-thru, and *IF* it was the exact same thickness of paper stock as CE788 (which I don't suppose can ever be confirmed with 100% certainty), then I suppose that would indicate the people who wrote on and/or stamped that 1961 money order just didn't apply as much pressure as Oswald and the post office clerk applied to the CE788 money order on March 12, 1963. Is that "innocent" explanation not nearly good enough for you, James? (Silly question, I know.) Plus, it's also possible (I suppose) that between 1961 and 1963, a lighter weight and thinner paper stock was being used for U.S. Postal Money Orders, which would, of course, lend themselves more to "bleed-thru".
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His name is Brian Castle. Not Greg. .... http://www.reopenkennedycase.org/apps/forums/topics/show/13267538-about-that-money-order- And if we want to get into a debate about which side produces more lame-ass theories and pure speculative nonsense relating to the JFK assassination -- LNers or CTers -- I could go on for days about how the CTers of the world have added more sheer crap to the table than all of the LNers of the planet combined. And I've documented thousands of examples of this at my own website.
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I've already admitted that I was wrong about the punch holes being placed in Oswald's money order as a part of processing the M.O. Here's exactly what I said yesterday.... "More information (from 1962 newspaper accounts) on the punch holes, dug up by Tom Scully, is available HERE and HERE. Looks like a nice big defeat for the "LN" side regarding the "punch holes". Celebrate, CTers! Looks like you won this one. But, I can't help but repeat.... How in the heck do CTers think the Hidell money order managed to get to the Federal Records Center in Alexandria, Virginia, if it wasn't cashed and then processed by someone? ~big shrug~" -- DVP; 11/10/15 ~~~~~~~~~~~~ What do you want now---a pint of my blood? Geez. And maybe you'd like to ask John Armstrong about that "OUT OF SEQUENCE MONEY ORDER" theory of his. Ask him if he really thinks the Dallas Post Office was the ONLY post office selling U.S. Postal Money Orders in early 1963.
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Speaking of unimaginable stupidity relating to Oswald's money order..... RAY MITCHAM SAID: From "Harvey and Lee" by John Armstrong: "All US Postal Money orders have unique serial numbers. In the fall of 1962, Oswald purchased numerous money orders from the same downtown post office and mailed them to Washington, DC in order to repay a loan from the government for his travel expenses incurred when he returned to the USA from Russia. These money orders were purchased in numerical sequence beginning in November, 1962. These serial numbers show that some 1200 money orders per week were purchased at the downtown post office in Dallas. At this rate we see that Oswald's alleged purchase of a money order on March 12, 1963 should have been numbered 2,202,011,935. But the serial number of the money order published in the Warren Volumes was more than 118,000 numbers higher. At the rate of 1200 money order per week, this money order should have been purchased in late 1964 or early 1965. In other words, this money order could easily have been pulled from a stack of fresh, unsold money orders by a postal official in Dallas, sometime after the assassination, and then given to the FBI. A close look at the details surrounding the "finding" of the money order the day after the assassination strongly suggests that this is what happened." [-- John Armstrong] Any comments, Dave? DAVID VON PEIN SAID: Why couldn't the Dallas post office have simply run out of their supply of blank U.S. Postal money orders shortly before Oswald purchased his M.O. on March 12th? It's fairly obvious to me that that is what happened. Does John Armstrong really think that the Dallas post office had an unlimited supply of money orders on hand at all times? How silly. At some point, the supply of money orders would run low and the Dallas post office would replenish its stock. And when they do get fresh stock, the serial numbers are, of course, going to be much higher than the ones they just ran out of, since they are "U.S. POSTAL MONEY ORDERS" with unique serial numbers attached to each one and are being continuously supplied to post offices and other institutions all around the entire country, not just the Main Post Office branch in Dallas, Texas. Why on Earth is my above "Ran out of stock and simply replenished their supply with money orders that obviously would have much higher serial numbers" explanation not even to be considered by conspiracy theorists like John Armstrong? ~big shrug~ BTW, HERE'S another official document (an FBI FD-302 report this time) which verifies that U.S. Postal Money Order #2,202,130,462, signed by "A. Hidell", was in the possession of the FBI in Washington on November 24, 1963 (the date in the lower left corner of the report). A quote from that FBI report: "This money order was hand carried to the FBI Laboratory where it was turned over to Special Agent James T. Freeman."
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Limo Photos....
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Well, David, of course we only see a PHOTO of the money order (CE788) in the WC volumes. (What do you expect? You want the WC to deliver the original M.O. to your house so you can examine it?) But the fact remains that the ORIGINAL money order was recovered in Virginia on Nov. 23 and was certainly available to the FBI and Treasury Department handwriting analysts. (Why WOULDN'T it be?)
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As far as I am aware, the FBI saw and examined the ORIGINAL money order---not a Xerox copy of a microfilm. Klein's never even had a microfilmed record of the money order at all. We know via CD87 that the original M.O. was recovered from the Federal Records Center at Alexandria, Virginia. http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10490#relPageId=118 So why would the FBI and the Treasury Dept. (Alwyn Cole) experts use a copy when the original was readily available? The same thing with the HSCA handwriting experts. It makes no sense at all to do that.
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More stuff to ponder re: the money order..... HENRY SIENZANT SAID: Why are you assuming a PO Money Order requires a bank stamp? That hasn't been demonstrated anywhere, as far as I know. Typically, there's a claim the MO should have one, then that's "demonstrated" by switching to a different financial instrument, a personal check, and a check is shown with the bank markings. But as I've pointed out in the past, those are two entirely different financial instruments, and there's no reason to assume they'd be handled the precise same way. A personal check is backed only by the amount of money in the person's checking account. It can be overdrawn, and checks can bounce. A Post Office Money Order is backed by the full taxation power of the U.S. Government. It can't be overdrawn, and the government has the power to raise taxes to pay its bills. In addition, because a Money Order is paid for by the purchaser at the time of purchase, it is more valuable than a personal check for the same amount. A personal check can bounce, a money order can't. Given those differences, I've asked conspiracy theorists on a number of occasions why we should assume the two financial instruments should be processed in the same way by banks, and never gotten a satisfactory answer. I think the problem here is that conspiracy theorists are putting forth an assumption as a fact (that the MO should have a bank stamp), and nobody is questioning that assumption. DAVID VON PEIN SAID: Well, maybe you're right, Hank. I have no idea really. But as far as my previous assumption (brought forth by other people online in 2014 and 2015) that the punch holes that are present in Oswald's money order were placed there as a substitute for an inked stamped endorsement of some kind, I stand corrected on that wrong assumption. And I say that based on the 1962 newspaper article that Tom Scully posted online today [November 10, 2015]. But your thoughts, Hank, are interesting ones to consider as well. It's certainly not very likely that a United States Postal Money Order, which as you say is backed by the U.S. Government, is going to bounce. And it was paid for by Lee Oswald when he purchased it at the Main Post Office in Dallas on 3/12/63. So we KNOW that the U.S. Government (the post office) got paid its $21.45 for the amount of the money order. Otherwise, the M.O. would never have been handed over to Oswald in the stamped amount of $21.45. [And I'm saying this based on my belief that the M.O. is NOT a fraudulent document and WAS purchased by the REAL Lee Harvey Oswald.] Thanks for your post, Henry. It gives me even more things to consider with respect to the lack of any bank markings on the back of Oswald's money order. I have never even considered the loopy idea of that M.O. being faked by a group of patsy framers, however. That idea is ludicrous, in my view. It's only because these things (like "the lack of bank stamps" topic) are brought up over and over again by the conspiracy theorists that makes me even want to look into them superficially (let alone in great depth). But, of course, a JFK CTer sees sinister, underhanded activity almost everywhere he looks --- even, evidently, at Klein's Sporting Goods in Chicago and the U.S. Post Office in downtown Dallas. David Von Pein November 10, 2015
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Bob, How do you think the Hidell money order managed to get to the Federal Records Center in Alexandria, Virginia, if it wasn't cashed and then processed by someone? Or is CD87 (below) just 4 pages of pure fantasy (in other words, MORE fake stuff)? http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10490#relPageId=118
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Not even close, Bob. The lack of a bank stamp (or even two) doesn't prove that money order is fake. It's got OSWALD'S writing on it and it's got KLEIN'S stamp on it. And it's a document that perfectly aligns with everything found in Waldman Exhibit #7 -- >> The "Hidell" name to whom Klein's mailed the rifle. >> The PO Box number to which Klein's sent the rifle. >> The exact dollar amount ($21.45), which is precisely the amount found in Waldman 7 as well. (And the "M.O." notation written by Klein's right underneath the "Amount Enclosed" line on Waldman 7.) >> And the dates line up nicely too (March 12 for the M.O. purchase; and March 13 on Waldman #7) --- although CTers think it was impossible for the letter/money order to get to Chicago in just one day; but a 29-year veteran of the U.S. Post Office [Jimmy Orr] thinks otherwise.... DAVID VON PEIN SAID: Jimmy, in your experience, in general, how long does it take an air mail letter to go from Dallas, Texas, to Chicago, Illinois (provided the letter was mailed no later than 10:30 AM local Dallas time)? JIMMY ORR SAID: David, Cancelled in Dallas by 10:30 AM and flown to Chicago that afternoon. Arrival for mail processing at a Chicago General Mail Facility during the early morning hours of the 13th and on the street for delivery to Klein's that same day. Makes perfect sense considering the volumes handled in 1963. [End Quote.] ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ So everything about the money order aligns with the Klein's internal paperwork. So that means KLEIN'S was a major part of the plot to frame Oswald too, if the CTers are right about this thing. And that's not a reasonable thing to think, IMO.
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Also worth a replay.... "As for the lack of any bank stamps appearing on the back of Oswald's postal money order, I don't have a definitive answer to explain it. But I'd be willing to bet the farm that there IS a reasonable and non-conspiratorial answer to explain the lack of markings on the back of that document without resorting to the conclusion that the money order was manufactured and faked by a group of conspirators in a complicated and intricate effort to frame Lee Harvey Oswald for John F. Kennedy's murder. And I know that conspiracy theorists who think Oswald never ordered a rifle from Klein's Sporting Goods in early 1963 have a heck of a lot MORE evidence to explain away than I do -- such as all this stuff." -- DVP; October 27, 2015