David Von Pein

Ten-four, Pat. Revised as follows: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=20291&page=2#entry275875

Sean, Out of all the "possibilities" available, I'd say it was probably Jack Dougherty who took that elevator down from the fifth floor between the time Baker and Truly were calling up the shaft for an elevator to be turned loose and the time B&T got up to the fifth floor and noticed that the west elevator was not there. I'll also add this: Dougherty said he did NOT hear anyone yelling up the elevator shaft: Mr. BALL - How did you come downstairs? Mr. DOUGHERTY - I used that push button elevator on the west side. Mr. BALL - Did you hear Mr. Truly yell anything up the elevator shaft? Mr. DOUGHERTY - I didn't hear anybody yell. But we know from Roy Truly's Warren Commission testimony that Truly DID yell the words "turn loose the elevator", with Truly testifying that he said those words "real loud...loud enough that anyone could have heard me if they had not been over stacking or making a little noise". And he yelled them "two times". Therefore, it seems fairly clear to me that Jack Dougherty was not REAL CLOSE to those freight elevators at approximately 12:31 PM, which means he would not necessarily have been in a position to see Lee Harvey Oswald coming down the stairs from the sixth floor at just about that very same time when Truly was yelling "real loud" up that elevator shaft -- a loud yell that Dougherty never heard. Now, you can argue that maybe Dougherty was hard of hearing, and that's why he failed to hear Roy Truly's "real loud" request to turn loose the elevator. But from the available testimony, it seems pretty obvious to me that Jack Dougherty was not within earshot of Truly's yells. Which means, ergo, that Dougherty was probably somewhere else on the fifth floor, further away from the elevators/stairway, when Truly was yelling and when Oswald was descending. But, yes, to reiterate -- it probably was Jack Dougherty who took that elevator downstairs.

Why not just read the article I posted for the limited purpose it was written. I.E., Krusch himself is saying the Sniper's Nest was largely constructed by people other than Oswald. This makes it EASIER for Oswald to have done the things I think he did on 11/22, because an already-in-place "Nest" (to a large degree) was already there on the southeast side of the 6th Floor for him to use as a shield. So why are you attempting to diss me in some way on this subject? ~shrug~

Constructing Oswald's Sniper's Nest

Robert M., What does your last post have to do with Oswald entering the Texas Theater TWICE on 11/22/63? (Or am I supposed to believe there were TWO different "Oswalds" entering the theater that day?)

You think a conspirator was stationed on the FIFTH floor for some purpose, do you Sean? What for?

And if I can't name the person who used an elevator on the fifth floor it means that Oswald is innocent and the LN scenario goes sliding down the tubes? Is that it? You'd better start over, Sean. Because this elevator thing goes nowhere and you know it (even if it wasn't Dougherty who used it).

How does the movement of an elevator on the FIFTH floor in any way affect the "Lone Nut Theory" that has Oswald shooting JFK from the SIXTH floor? The two things aren't in any way related. Not even the same floor.

So, per some conspiracy theorists, Oswald enters the theater prior to 1:10 PM CST. He then decides to leave the theater a little while later and loiter for a few seconds in Johnny Brewer's storefront. And then Oswald goes BACK INTO the same theater he just exited. That seems highly unlikely...doesn't it?

Sean, You're elevating the "Dougherty/Elevator" episode to absurd levels of perceived importance. Fact is: I don't know with 100% certainty how the elevator got down from the fifth floor shortly after the assassination took place. Nor do you. But whether it was Dougherty or wasn't Dougherty on that elevator, the movement of that elevator doesn't suddenly eliminate all of the evidence that indicates Lee Harvey Oswald murdered two people in Dallas on 11/22/63.

Yeah, Bill. I'd like to know that info myself. Because I've never heard of "Denham" before either. But you've misquoted Ian above. He didn't say Denham himself was being "escorted". He said somebody named Denham was escorting someone else.

That's a CT fantasy, Bill. Nothing more. Oswald's gun was on the sixth floor that day. And so was Oswald--at 12:30. And you surely cannot believe that the vast majority of the proverbial "80%" figure that you talk about is composed of CTers who are remotely similar to people like us on the Internet -- i.e., people who spend untold hours going over these same JFK points day after day and year after year....can you, Bill? 90% of that "80%" probably couldn't even tell you who Jesse Curry is. Or Ruth Paine. Or J.D. Tippit.

And CTers love to ignore the fact that Dougherty said he only saw Oswald "out of the corner of my eye" when Oswald came into the TSBD on 11/22. Does a single conspiracy book EVER mention that part of Jack Dougherty's testimony when the subject of "WHO ELSE BESIDES FRAZIER AND RANDLE SAW OSWALD WITH THE PAPER BAG?" comes up? I've yet to hear of one CTer ever mention that important testimony. Why? Because they like to promote the idea that Dougherty HAD to have seen Oswald with a bag if he had been carrying one that morning. But how much detail can YOU pick up out of the corner of your own eye? So it's a game that will never end. I'll always point out the "corner of my eye" testimony that CTers refuse to ever mention. And CTers will point out the elevator stuff as it relates to Dougherty, and they'll ask: Well, Dave, how come Mr. Dougherty didn't see Oswald go by him as LHO was racing from the sixth floor down to the fifth where Jack D. was? My answer: I haven't the foggiest. But I certainly don't think Dougherty HAD to absolutely see Oswald go by. Perhaps they just barely missed each other that day. Why is that an impossibility?

That's possible. But it had to have been after Baker & Truly had started up the stairs, because both freight elevators were stuck on upper floors when B&T first got to the elevators.

Nice job, Ian. Cast doubt and suspicion on everybody except the owner of that gun up on the sixth floor. And that gun owner just happened to be located in the northwest corner of the building 2 minutes after shots were fired from OSWALD'S GUN. But keeping Oswald's skirts tidy and neat seems to be the only thing conspiracy theorists are interested in doing. What a silly hobby.

I'd put a big ol' grain of salt by my side when evaluating anything in Dougherty's testimony. Here are several good examples: Mr. BALL - Did you know that the President was going to pass in a motorcade that noon? Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, they said something about it. Mr. BALL - Did you intend to go out and watch him? Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I would have loved to have went out and watched him, but the steps were so crowded---there was no way in the world I could get out there. ~big shrug~ Jack apparently didn't realize there was more than one exit in the TSBD. He felt the ONLY way outside was through the front entrance. ~another shrug~ ==================== Mr. BALL - On the day that this happened, on the 22nd of November, you told the FBI agents Ellington and Anderson that you heard "a loud explosion which sounded like a rifle shot coming from the next floor above me." Now, did you tell them that it sounded like a rifle shot, coming from the next floor above you, or didn't you? Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I believe I told them it sounded like a car backfiring. Mr. BALL - Well, did you tell them it sounded like it was from the floor above you, or didn't you tell them that? Mr. DOUGHERTY - No. Mr. BALL - You did not tell them that? Mr. DOUGHERTY - No. Mr. BALL - Did it sound like it came from the floor above you? Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, at the time it did--yes. I guess Dougherty must have thought there was a '62 Chevy Impala "backfiring" up on the sixth floor, huh? ===================== Mr. BALL - When you went up to the sixth floor, it was after they found the shotgun and shells? Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes, sir. So, Dougherty is now saying he was on the sixth floor AFTER 1:22 PM CST on November 22nd. Joe Ball was probably pulling his hair out while trying to comprehend this incoherent mess that is Jack D.'s testimony. ====================== Mr. BALL - Are you sure you were on the fifth floor when you heard the shots? Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes, I'm positive. Mr. BALL - Did you see any other employee on the fifth floor? Mr. DOUGHERTY - No, sir; I didn't see nobody. There wasn't nobody on the fifth floor at all. It was just myself. ====================== Mr. BALL - Now, did you hear this shot either before or after lunch? Mr. DOUGHERTY - It was before lunch; it was before lunch. Mr. BALL - You think it was before lunch you heard the shot? Mr. DOUGHERTY - I believe it was--yes, sir. Mr. BALL - And you were alone, were you? Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes. Here we have a replay of the previous humorous moment regarding JD's "before lunch" declaration. How could anyone POSSIBLY believe Dougherty's "Before Lunch" testimony above? Especially when we also find this exchange within the very same day's WC testimony: Mr. DOUGHERTY - I went back downstairs to eat lunch. Mr. BALL - What time? Mr. DOUGHERTY - Oh, it was 12 o'clock. Your witness, Perry.

You can't prove that. Certainly not by utilizing Dougherty's jigsaw puzzle which represents his testimony. As I said, it's a mess. His testimony reminds me of all the conspiracy theories -- a certifiable disaster area.

In retrospect (many years later), couldn't the words "hunt down Oswald" easily be interpreted as "keep a watchful eye out for the slender white male who just shot President Kennedy"? Knowing the evidence and the witness testimony in the Tippit murder case as I do, I feel that the latter interpretation of any "hunt down Oswald" remark that anyone might have made after 11/22/63 is almost certainly the correct explanation. Therefore, Joseph, you must then believe that the TWELVE or so witnesses who positively identified Lee Harvey Oswald were either all lying or they innocently identified a perfect-looking Oswald double as the one and only gunman who killed J.D. Tippit or as the one and only man who was fleeing the scene of the shooting on foot with a gun in his hand. Correct? Why do you disregard the two bullet shells found by the Davis girls at 10th & Patton (which they turned over to DPD Detectives Doughty and Dhority on Nov. 22)? Those shells have a clean and firm chain of custody. So even if a person wants to toss aside the "Poe shells", the Davis shells cannot be dismissed in the same manner. Those shells were marked by each DPD officer. And they were fired in Oswald's revolver "to the exclusion". And that revolver was in Oswald's hands when he was arrested while trying to kill more policemen with that same gun. Based on the evidence, there's no possible way Oswald can be innocent. And here's why: JFK-Archives/The Murder Of J.D. Tippit Excerpt from above article: "What makes Oswald's guilt in the Tippit murder EXTRA convincing (vs. "unconvincing") is the fact that there are multiple types of evidence to convict him -- including direct (eyewitness) testimony which corroborates and buttresses the physical evidence left behind by Oswald at the scene of the crime (i.e., the eyewitnesses fingered OSWALD -- and the bullet shells found at the crime scene were fired in OSWALD'S revolver -- and OSWALD himself had the murder weapon in his own hands just 35 minutes after Tippit was killed, with OSWALD himself acting like a very guilty man in the theater). The melding together of that much eyewitness testimony, circumstantial evidence, and physical evidence (the bullet shells on Tenth Street) doesn't occur in a great number of murder cases. But in the Tippit case, it did occur. And Oswald was nice enough to KEEP THE MURDER WEAPON IN HIS POSSESSION right after the crime too, which is a huge asset when it comes to solving the murder of Officer Tippit. The only possible way for Oswald to be innocent of Tippit's murder is if LHO's identical twin had actually shot Tippit with LEE HARVEY OSWALD'S gun, and then the identical twin (or exact look-alike) was somehow able to get Oswald himself to take possession of Revolver V510210 prior to his arrest in the Texas Theater. And even that ridiculous scenario wouldn't really explain why Oswald, just thirty-five minutes after J.D. Tippit had been shot with LHO's Smith & Wesson revolver, was behaving like a very guilty person when the police approached him inside the Texas Theater on November 22, 1963. Conspiracy theorists are experts at making up excuses to EXPLAIN AWAY all the evidence that exists against Lee Harvey Oswald in both the JFK and Tippit murder cases. But unless the CTers really want to believe that all of the eyewitnesses who identified Oswald were totally wrong AND that all of the physical evidence in the Tippit case was manufactured by the authorities to frame a man named Lee Oswald, then the conspiracy theorists really have nowhere to go with their persistent arguments that Oswald was innocent of killing J.D. Tippit." -- David Von Pein; January 10, 2012

Of course Jean has heard of Jack Dougherty. And Jean's far from being a "rookie". She wrote a fine book on Oswald 30 years ago. But anyone who reads through Jack Dougherty's testimony should know that his testimony is a complete mess. His timing of when he did things and when he supposedly heard the gunshots is a total disaster. Here's what I mean: Examining The Testimony Of Jack Dougherty Back to this quote of Jean Davison's again for a moment: "Unlike every other employee, Oswald just happened [to] be near the shooter's likely escape route shortly after the shooting? Is that bad luck or what?" -- J. Davison; May 2013 Jean's comment repeated above should be looked at from another context and point-of-view too -- that is: Oswald is certainly "unlike every other employee" when we COMBINE both of these things listed below: 1.) Oswald was positively located "near the shooter's likely escape route" within just two minutes of the assassination. And 2.) Oswald was "unlike every other employee" in the TSBD because it was HIS RIFLE (not another employee's) that was found on the sixth floor after the assassination. And his rifle was found very near the same staircase that Oswald was also very near within just two minutes after that very same rifle was used by somebody to fire bullets at President Kennedy. When adding #1 and #2 together, these words written by Jean certainly do apply to Lee Harvey Oswald if he were innocent of shooting the President --- "Is that bad luck or what?"

As Rochester Van Jones would say to Jack Benny: "Oh boss, come now!!" And those patsy-framing conspirators (who apparently were employed by "Idiots Inc.") just allowed their one and only patsy to wander around the lower floors of the building at the precise moment when they needed him up on the 6th floor to frame him. Brilliant plotters, those men. And then they also decided it was wise to fire shots at the President from multiple directions, thereby ensuring their "patsy" plot would fail (as if allowing the patsy to garner an ironclad alibi wasn't a big enough gaffe). How To Frame A Patsy And How Not To Do It

I think you're wrong about that, Bill. And the reason I think you're wrong is because of the WC text that is attached to those 9/23/64 FBI reports regarding Truly and Baker. CE3035 and CE3076 (the Baker/Truly statements from 9/23/64) are mentioned as source material in the Warren Report in the "Speculations And Rumors" appendix, connected to the rumor that other people might have been in the lunchroom with Oswald: http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0336b.htm That's telling me the probable reason for taking those eleventh-hour statements from two people (Baker & Truly) who had already submitted affidavits and testimony to the WC. And in both of those September 23rd statements, Agent Burnett (who is the person who almost certainly wrote the words we find in those two handwritten documents, with Baker and Truly then signing them and initialling any corrections) specifically mentions the fact that nobody else was in the lunchroom except Oswald. Yes, it's true that other things are mentioned in those statements too, but the key thing is confirming the fact (for the record) that nobody else was there other than LHO. (And that fact was not brought out specifically in the WC testimony of Baker or Truly.) http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/07/oswald-baker-truly-and-coca-cola.html That's a mighty weak argument in an effort to exonerate Oswald, who, you just admitted "could have" made it from the sixth-floor Sniper's Nest to the lunchroom in the allotted time. Truly probably just wasn't scanning every inch of every doorway on his way up the stairs -- but Officer Baker (being a trained police officer) was doing such scanning. Baker saw Oswald through the door's window, while Truly didn't. Simple as that. Jean Davison said something a couple months ago that deserves a replay: "Unlike every other employee, Oswald just happened [to] be near the shooter's likely escape route shortly after the shooting? Is that bad luck or what?" -- Jean Davison; May 4, 2013 That's food for "lunchroom" thought...isn't it Bill? Quoting-Common-Sense.blogspot.com

That is a strange statement, Sean. Because according to Marrion Baker's own WC testimony, he never saw Oswald in a "lineup". He did see LHO at the police station on 11/22, but it wasn't during an official police lineup. But we know that the man Baker saw in the lunchroom was positively Lee Oswald due to the confirmation of that fact by Roy S. Truly. Somebody must have written up that report incorrectly about Baker actually IDing LHO in a "lineup". But such an error certainly doesn't change any of the basic facts pertaining to Marrion Baker--because we KNOW Baker encountered OSWALD in the lunchroom shortly after the asaassination. That fact is not even debatable due to all of Roy Truly's statements and testimony (coupled with Baker's own statements and testimony, plus his affidavit, pictured below). From Marrion L. Baker's WC session: Mr. DULLES - You saw Oswald later in the lineup or later... Mr. BAKER - I never did have a chance to see him in the lineup. I saw him when I went to give the affidavit, the statement that I saw him down there, of the actions of myself and Mr. Truly as we went into the building and on up what we are discussing now. Mr. DULLES - I didn't get clearly in mind, I am trying to check up, as to whether you saw Oswald maybe in the same costume later in the day. Did you see Oswald later in the day of November 22d? Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir; I did. Mr. DULLES - Under what circumstances? Don't go into detail, I just want to tie up these two situations. Mr. BAKER - As I was in the homicide office there writing this, giving this affidavit, I got hung in one of those little small offices back there, while the Secret Service took Mr. Oswald in there and questioned him and I couldn't get out by him while they were questioning him, and I did get to see him at that time. Mr. DULLES - You saw him for a moment at that time? Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir. MORE MARRION BAKER STUFF: Oswald, Baker, Truly, And The Coke Reconstructing The Steps Of A Presidential Assassin Dr. Pepper, Coca-Cola, And Lee Harvey Oswald

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Test post. 7/15/13