David Von Pein

Follow-Up: I also posted this Facebook message and additional question on 8/5/12, in replying to the person who supplied me the answer shown earlier from the "Post Mark Collectors Club". The name of the person who sent that message is not revealed on their Facebook message page: Thank you for your timely response. Also: Is there any sort of USPS manual that exists online that describes (in official USPS terms) what the numbers indicate on postmarks? If so, could you direct me to such a webpage? Thank you. David Von Pein ================================ I received this reply: "Hmmm, I don't know about a manual. This information comes from the collective knowledge of obsessive postmark collectors. I will say that discussing postmarks or places with some of us is like playing Scrabble against someone who's memorized the dictionary! If I get any more info, I'll let you know."

I was wondering about that too. I can see them, of course, since they are my messages and linked to my Facebook account. But I thought perhaps anyone could possibly read those messages, as long as they, too, were logged-in to their Facebook accounts (which almost everybody has nowadays). But, perhaps not. Sorry.

Nothing DiEugenio just spouted means a darn thing. He quotes some guy who lived in "Detroit 39", and thus this is supposed to have some connection to the "12" on the Dallas postmark that is seen in CE773? Jim has taken up residence in Rod Serling's Zone again, I see. Also notice how Jimbo has totally ignored the two responses I received from members of organizations who would certainly be in a BETTER position than almost anyone on this forum to know what the numbers mean on old postmarks (the "Post Mark Collectors Club" and the "Machine Cancel Society", the latter of which, incredibly, actually does exist). Let me repeat those two responses for Jimbo to totally ignore once again: "It just means that it was cancelled at machine 12 where they cancelled the mail in Dallas. It's not a zone code or anything." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "The 12 is the machine number that canceled the envelope. Larger post offices have multiple machines to cancel their mail, so they number the machines and sometimes the machine number appears in the postmark, and sometimes it appears in the killer bars."

Date: 8/18/2010 3:28:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time From: Gary Mack To: David Von Pein -------------------- Dave, Thanks to The Sixth Floor Museum’s collection, today I examined all 1963 issues of the American Rifleman and here is what I found: Jan 63 -- p. 61 -- 36” “6.5 Italian Carbine” -- $12.88 -- $19.95 (with scope) Feb 63 -- p. 65 -- Same ad as above Mar 63 -- No ad Apr 63 -- p. 55 -- 40” “6.5 Italian Carbine” -- $12.88 -- $19.95 (with scope) May 63 -- Missing pp. 63-66 Jun 63 -- p. 59 -- 40” “6.5 Italian Carbine” -- $12.88 -- $19.95 (with scope) Jul 63 -- p. 67 -- 40” “6.5 Italian Carbine” -- $12.78 -- $19.95 (with scope) Aug 63 -- p. 79 -- Same ad as above Sep 63 -- p. 89 -- Same ad as above Oct 63 -- p. 85 -- Same ad as above Nov 63 -- No ad Dec 63 -- No ad So as I suggested earlier, Oswald ordered the 36” rifle but, probably due to Klein’s running out of stock, he received the 40” model instead. The price remained the same, so Klein’s may have just sent him the newly available model instead. They would certainly accept a return if he didn’t want it. The Museum’s copy of the May 1963 issue is missing four pages and, since Klein’s ads normally ran in the back half of the magazine, it was likely on one of those pages. But as you can see, the ad for the months before and after May showed the exact same 40” rifle. I don’t know when the American Rifleman normally went to press, but I would think they’d want the new issue to appear on the newsstands and in subscriber’s mailboxes at or shortly before the beginning of each month. That would mean all ad copy must be ready and in the hands of the publisher at least 30 days ahead of time, maybe more. If Klein’s ran out of 36” rifles in January, they might not even have enough time to get a corrected ad in by the March deadline. Maybe that’s why there was no ad in the March issue? Perhaps Klein’s sold out of the Carcano and other weapons and just couldn’t update their new ad before the deadline? Gary Mack [August 18, 2010] https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!msg/alt.conspiracy.jfk/-T9y2K5oOq4/SMyT9S_onnEJ

As I predicted, it didn't take long to get some responses on Facebook to my question about the "12" on the postmark. On the evening of August 5, 2012, I got this response from a member of the "Machine Cancel Society": [Facebook Quote On:] "The 12 is the machine number that canceled the envelope. Larger post offices have multiple machines to cancel their mail, so they number the machines and sometimes the machine number appears in the postmark, and sometimes it appears in the killer bars." [/Quote Off] Anybody still think the "12" in the CE773 postmark represents a Dallas postal zone? JFK Archives/The Postmark On Oswald's Envelope

In actuality, the "12" that is seen on Oswald's envelope has never been a "serious problem" at all. It has always been a piece of insignificant chaff that conspiracy-happy people like Jim DiEugenio love to prop up as meaningful in some fashion. But, as we can now see, there is reason to believe that it's not meaningful or significant at all. The bottom-line is (and always has been): Lee Harvey Oswald's handwriting is all over every document associated with his 1963 rifle purchase -- including the envelope with the "12" on it, the Klein's order form for the rifle, and the money order that Oswald purchased and filled out in his own writing at the Main Post Office in Dallas on March 12th, 1963. And we also know that that exact envelope and order form were received by Klein's in Chicago on March 13, 1963. The microfilmed record (CE773) of the envelope and order form, plus the Klein's internal order form (with the date "Mar-13-63" stamped at the top of it), prove for all time that Lee Oswald ordered, paid for, and was shipped Mannlicher-Carcano rifle number C2766 in March of 1963. DiEugenio, however, thinks ALL of that paperwork is fake and phony. All of it. And that notion is just too silly for any reasonable person to even begin to believe.

On August 5, 2012, I received this reply on Facebook from a member of the "Post Mark Collectors Club". Conspiracy mongers like Mr. DiEugenio can spit all over this reply and ignore it if he/they wish to do so (and Jim no doubt will), but here it is anyway: [Facebook Quote On:] "The answer is less exciting than some had hoped -- it just means that it was cancelled at machine 12 where they cancelled the mail in Dallas. It's not a zone code or anything." [/Quote Off] I'm still waiting for a reply from the group known as the "Machine Cancel Society". The description of that particular organization includes the following blurb on their Facebook page: "We are a philatelic organization of 300+ postal historians studying machine applied postmarks and the companies that invented those machines. Mission: Increase the dissemination of information related to Machine Cancels. Company Overview: We are a group of stamp collectors, located throughout the world, interested in the postal history of machine applied postmarks. These include American, Universal, International, Doremus, Barry, Barr-Fyke, Time Cummins, Krag, Bickerdyke, Perfection, Leavitt and any other machine applied postmarks." ------------ If anyone in the world should know what the "12" means on CE773, it's probably someone who belongs to the organization described above.

What has that got to do with the price of tea in China (or Dallas)? Just because a map exists that shows postal zone codes for Dallas, that fact means that the "12" on Oswald's envelope HAS to be a postal zone code? That's daffy.

Thanks, Tom. So it looks like we have one more conspiracy theory we can throw in the trash, because there now seems to be ample reason to conclude that the "12" seen in the postmark in CE773 (the envelope Lee Harvey Oswald mailed to Klein's in March of 1963) has nothing at all to do with any specific postal zone in the city of Dallas, Texas. And if my e-mail source is correct, the number "12" cancelling/franking machine was located right there at the Main Post Office in Dallas in 1963, which makes perfect sense, of course, since that was the place where we know Oswald bought his $21.45 money order that he sent to Klein's on 3/12/63. It's nice to know that there are "geeks" in virtually all categories of life -- even "Postmark Geeks" who belong to the Post Mark Collectors Club. I just now (on 8/5/2012) posted messages on the Facebook pages for the Post Mark Collectors Club and the Machine Cancel Society, asking this question: "General question to anyone who can help out with the following question regarding a specific marking on a 1963 Dallas, Texas, postmark --- What does the number "12" signify in the postmark pictured here (right after the words "Dallas, Tex.")? Thank you for any help you can provide." -- DVP I'll bet I get a response within a few hours. We'll see. http://www.machinecancel.org/forum/ludeman/ludeman.html

....

I received the following e-mail on August 5th, 2012: [Quoting from e-mail message:] Hi again David, The 'definitive' reply that I was hoping for [regarding the "12" stamped on Warren Commission Exhibit 773] has turned out to be rather 'inconclusive', unfortunately. Here is the full text of the email that I've just received: I have been asked to look into your question regarding the significance of the number “12” inside the cancellation from March 12, 1963 in Dallas TX. My initial thought also was that this was a zone number used in larger cities before the widespread adoption of ZIP Code. But the information you obtained from the Postmark Collectors Club has given me pause to reconsider. The idea that the "12" identifies a specific cancelling machine is entirely plausible, but thus far I have been unable to confirm or deny that theory. I spoke with Evan Kalish from the Postmark Collectors Club about this and his opinion is based on anecdotal knowledge of the club's members. I have no reason to doubt their expertise, but I have been unable to corroborate that with any reference materials in our files. Since this question is bound to come up again, it would be of great value if we could cite an authoritative source. In the meanwhile, I shall continue to scour our files for documentation on this question. I am sorry that I was unable to provide the information you requested. STEVE KOCHERSPERGER SR. RESEARCH ANALYST, POSTAL HISTORY 475 L'ENFANT PLAZA SW RM 2P400 WASHINGTON DC 20260-0012 Not quite what I'd hoped for, but good enough to show that the 'district 12' notion cannot be supported. [End e-mail message.]

Yes, Mark, I think that point is all too obvious, because just common sense alone would indicate to everyone that the 10:30 mark on Oswald's envelope certainly doesn't mean he dropped it in a mailbox at precisely 10:30 AM. It just means he mailed it sometime before 10:30. The key point, however, in the e-mail that I provided is the part about the "12" marked on the envelope. Another point is this (which may not be important at all, but it suddenly popped into my head after looking at the stamped postmark on CE773 once again): You'll notice that the "12" is stamped AFTER the word "Tex." [Texas] on the envelope, instead of being placed between the city and the state. Normally, the postal zone number is placed between the name of the city and the state, such as the way Oswald himself wrote out the address on the envelope he mailed to Klein's -- he wrote "Chicago 6, Ill.", which is also the way the Chicago address appears in the Klein's ad that is seen in CE773. Whether or not it's significant that the number "12" appears after both the city and state in the CE773 postmark, I really have no idea. But it suddenly struck me today that the city and state portion of the postmark isn't written the normal way you see an address written out in the "pre-zip code" days (if, that is, the "12" indicates a specific postal zone within the city of Dallas, Texas).

I recently received a very interesting e-mail from a person I have corresponded with a few times in the past. This mail concerns the topic of the postmark that was stamped on the envelope that Lee Harvey Oswald mailed to Klein's Sporting Goods in Chicago in March of 1963, which was an envelope that contained Oswald's order form for the rifle which he eventually used to kill JFK in November. I'm going to omit the name of the person who wrote me this e-mail, because I'm not sure if he would want his name revealed on the Internet. Since receiving this message on July 6, 2012, I've been hoping to receive a follow-up mail from this individual regarding the "absolute confirmation" he speaks of in his e-mail message, but thus far I have not received any additional correspondence from him. But since this matter concerning the envelope's postmark and Oswald's order form for the rifle has been a topic of considerable interest to many conspiracy theorists over the years, I thought I'd share this apparently "new" information regarding the postmark. ===================================================== Quoting from e-mail message dated 7/6/2012, 2:12:12 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time: Hi David, Some months ago you very kindly helped me with a question that I had about the postmark on CE-773 - the envelope in which Oswald posted his coupon for the rifle. After a long (and intermittent) search, I think that I may have come up with an answer - and it conflicts with the claims made by those who maintain that the number ‘12’ denotes a distant part of Dallas. I’ve been told by a group of postmark collectors and historians (in the USA) that the number ‘12’ which appears on the franking/cancellation mark does not indicate where the item was posted. It merely indicates that the letter was franked through the number 12 machine at the processing plant, which was, in 1963, within the terminal annex building where Oswald actually bought the money order! No mysterious journey required, it would seem. I have also been advised that the time-stamp shown on the franking, 10:30, does not mean that it was posted at that time. It simply means that the letter was in the mailbox when the scheduled 10:30 collection was made. The only thing that can be said for sure is that the letter was posted at some time before the timestamp shows. It could have been one minute, one hour, two hours, three hours, etc. I’m currently seeking absolute confirmation of these matters from the USPS historians and archivists. If you’d like me to contact you again, when I’ve got the confirmations, I’ll be delighted to let you know. Regards, XXXXXXX [Name deleted by DVP] ===================================================== FOOTNOTES AND RELATED COMMENTS: Here's a picture of the envelope in question (Commission Exhibit No. 773): http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/html/WH_Vol17_0331a.htm ~~~~~~~~~~~~ "As to why the envelope is postmarked in a different zone, I have no clue, but there’s no evidence such a practice was out of the ordinary." -- Gary Mack; March 17, 2011; Via e-mail to DVP http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/4258f7d3ce77362b ~~~~~~~~~~~~ Related Links: http://JFK-Archives.blogspot.com/2010/07/discussing-evidence.html http://JFK-Archives.blogspot.com/2011/04/index.html#Guns-Backyard-Photos-And-Other-Evidence http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franking

Exactly. And such a film is far less significant than CE399, isn't it? (That was kind of my whole point, in case you missed it.) This really needs to be explained to you, Bill? You don't really believe that, do you Bill? (You just said that for Mr. Lifton's benefit, didn't you?)

You've got to be kidding with this crap about the Andrews Air Force Base color film. Here again, we have a conspiracy theorist focusing on all the wrong things (as usual). You actually think that a film taken at Andrews AFB, hours after JFK was shot, has some kind of evidentiary value in the investigation of who killed the President and whether there was a conspiracy? Get real. That film is totally meaningless when it comes to answering any of the major questions regarding President Kennedy's murder. Why on Earth are you elevating that film's significance to the same level as that of the Altgens photo and the Zapruder Film?

You're wrong about that, Bill. .... "Courts do not have a practice of allowing into evidence only that for which there is an ironclad and 100 percent clear chain of custody, and this is why I believe that 95 percent of the physical evidence in this [JFK] case would be admissible. I can tell you from personal experience that excluding evidence at a trial because the chain of custody is weak is rare, certainly the exception rather than the rule. The typical situation where the chain is not particularly strong is for the trial judge to nevertheless admit the evidence, ruling that the weakness of the chain goes only to "the weight of the evidence [i.e., how much weight or credence the jury will give it], not its admissibility"." -- Vincent T. Bugliosi; Page 442 of Endnotes in "Reclaiming History" Vince also told me this via private correspondence: "The admissibility of CE 399 (along with other items of evidence) was, indeed, dealt with in London [during the TV docu-trial, "On Trial: Lee Harvey Oswald"] by Judge Lucius Bunton at a pre-trial evidentiary hearing, and Bunton, a sitting federal judge in Texas at the time, ruled in my favor that CE 399 (not the actual bullet, of course, which we did not have in London) was admissible at the London trial." -- Vincent Bugliosi; August 22nd, 2009

~Yawn~ ~Stretch~

Backes must've found a yak hairball in his Corn Flakes this morning. He's irritable.

Thanks. Care to answer my question now?

Why is that important?

Full-sized: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_6kYzhJGqq2M/R8zrKJ2kGoI/AAAAAAAAAhY/hy2MRzibLuk/s1600-h/142a.%2BCasket%2BComing%2BOff%2BAF1.jpg

JFK Assassination: As It Happened: NBC-TV

And I guess he's also forgotten (or doesn't know about) the best documentary film ever made about the JFK case -- David Wolper's 1964 lone-assassin feature motion picture, "Four Days In November". Any filmmaker or documentary producer would be hard-pressed to top Mr. Wolper's film. Classic Movies / Four Days In November Four-Days-In-November.blogspot.com

Addendum (from March 2009): http://DVP-Potpourri.blogspot.com/2009/12/bill-paxton-interview.html

This article is dated May 30, 2012: http://www.nbcnewyork.com/blogs/popcornbiz/After-Surviving-Apollo-13-Bill-Paxton-and-Tom-Hanks-Look-at-Kennedys-Assassination-85825947.html