Richard Hocking

It might be helpful at this point to note there are several component discussions in this thread. The first two focus on the figure seen in Weigman and Darnell: 1. Identifying Prayer Man 2. The light “reflection” area by PM’s hands: Is PM holding something? Several other discussions have evolved from the implications of Oswald as Prayer Man: 3. Oswald seen in the small Storage room in the front Lobby 4. Oswald/Truly/Baker encounter in the entrance or 1st floor lobby 5. Oswald/Truly/Baker encounter in the 2nd floor Lunchroom area 6. Oswald 2nd floor encounter with Mrs. Reid 7. Baker encounter with suspect on 4th floor (from his first day affidavit) 8. Baker stairs/ or elevator/ or combination to the roof 9. Oswald leaving the TSBD (from the title of the thread)

An excerpt from one of Baker's Warren Commission sessions that may fit into Sean's discussion of Baker/elevator/stairs. from http://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wch/vol3/page267.php There is some interesting interaction between Senator Cooper and Mr. Belin. [begin Excerpt] ... Mr. Baker. No; from the street in. As I ran in I was pushing them aside and running through them, and some way, Mr. Truly got from my back to my front. Now, he said he was right behind me. I never did see him until I got in and asked the question of where the stairs was, so evidently whenever I went in the door why he came on in. There were several people coming in as I, you know, came in, there were several in front of me and also around my sides and my back. And it seemed to me like a double door deal. Senator Cooper. As you went up on the elevator could you see out of the elevator onto floors? Mr. Baker. Yes, sir. The best that I could, that is the reason I wasn't paying too much attention to the elevator I was looking around all those floors. Senator Cooper. Did you see anyone? Mr. Belin. When you say up on the elevator, he didn't get on the elevator until he had got up on the stairs. Senator Cooper. I am aware of that. Mr. Baker. I was still looking. Senator Cooper. You went up on the second floor by stairs? Mr. Baker. Yes, sir. Senator Cooper. Then you got on the elevator. Mr. Belin. No, sir; he didn't get on the elevator until the fifth floor. Senator Cooper. Anyway, as you walked up the stairs could you see into each floor space as you passed from floor to floor? Mr. Baker. Partly. Now, this building has got pillars in it, you know, and then it has got books, cases of books stacked all in it. And the best that I could, you know, I would look through there and see if I could see anybody. Senator Cooper. Did you see anyone? Mr. Baker. No, sir. Senator Cooper. When you looked? Mr. Baker. Not from the second floor on up. ... [end of excerpt]

And we could also be looking at artifacts, [best Charles Laughton] Mr. Hocking, could we not? Veddey well, M'Lud, I rest my case! Ray, the Weigman film certainly has it's share of artifacts. The persistence of the image, however, throughout the entire clip should rule out any possibility of being an artifact. And it shows up clearly again in Darnell.

A reasonable question Robin. Although PM is not in direct sunlight, Dealey Plaza was full of reflective surfaces. The windows on the buildings, cars, and the reflecting pools would have provided multiple sources for indirect sunlight into the alcove.

Tom, I think you have stated the most likely motive for PM/Oswald having a camera; an alibi. If LHO was indeed taking photos from the front entrance, we can be equally sure that evidence would never see the light of day. Given our knowledge that nobody else in the stair group was taking pictures or had a camera with them, we could make another statement with a high degree of confidence: If PM is holding a camera, it is strong evidence that Oswald is Prayer Man. Having noted that, I am still leaning more toward the object in PM's hands being a coke.

Superb stuff, Martin. Looks to me like Prayer Man's right hand is significantly higher than his left here. Contrast the 'join' in Darnell: My money is still on a Coca-Cola--taking a swig in Wiegman, return to two-hand clasp by Darnell. Yes Sean, you are correct. My idea of a camera in his hand is apparently invalid. Has someone created an overview in map to show all the people in the doorway? To me it looks like Prayerman was standing directly at the wall but not on the top pedestal. Most likely one step lower. When looking closely at the stable Darnell (not Couch as i stated falsely) sequence from me i see the right glass door being operated. Opended most likely. But thats just a side note. best to you Martin Martin, I agree with your observation. Prayer Man looks like he is standing one step from the top.

from Sean's post above: "... The shocking answer is given to us courtesy of three people who worked in the TSBD building: Vicki Adams. Sandra Styles. Bonnie Ray Williams. Here's what they tell us: Baker and Truly never took the stairs up from the first floor. They took one of the rear elevators." One other name can be added to that list. Otis Williams. "Fact is, as soon as the third shot happened, and everybody commenced milling around, I thought it came from the underpass. I entered the building immediately, climbed up the stairs where the warehouse elevator was which led to the 6th floor and went up to the 4th floor, which was the first one I could see from to see the underpass. After I got up there and saw that nothing was going on on the underpass, I turned around and came back down to the office, and called my wife. Soon, while we were talking, people came in, officers rushed in, and I had to get off the phone. I could have gone down the steps while Oswald came down, but he came down on the elevator. Anyway, I walked down the steps and didn't see him or anything." - quoted from No More Silence, by Larry Sneed, pp 117-118 Williams and Adams/Styles do not mention seeing anyone, including each other. I Italicized "but he came down on the elevator" , as being a peculiar thing for Williams to say.

I applaud your open-mindedness, and your willingness to go where the evidence leads. But there are some other considerations, and I think we need to re-evaluate the conclusion you reached. If we assume for this discussion that Prayer Man is holding a camera, we would have to account for the following: 1. No one in the Stair Group mentions having a camera in their testimony. Specifically, none of the men, including Shelley, Lovelady, Williams, Molina or Frazier. No one mentions seeing someone on the steps taking pictures. 2. No picture has ever emerged from that specific location. A picture of the motorcade from that location would have received a great deal of attention and probable press coverage. 3. We have already debunked the notion that a stranger could have stood unnoticed in the stair group, let alone a stranger with a camera. 4. There is a high probability that the authorities would have taken the camera as evidence and examined the film, ala Moorman, Babushka Lady, and others. What about the possiblity that Oswald had brought his camera? We know he previously worked at Jagger-Chiles-Stovall, that he was knowledgeable and had an interest in photography. This is probably the only scenario that might hold some water. There are some difficulties with this, in that no one in the Oswald interviews (Fritz, Hosty, Bookhout, Holmes, etc) reports any discussion of Lee having a camera with him that day. From my viewpoint, a camera is much harder to account for than a coke. Edit: Replace "JCS" with Jagger-Chiles-Stovall, for clarity

Since I am the class dunce, who naively believes in the complete innocence of Prayer Man Lee you will have to spell it out for me. Ray,I think Sean has described one reasonable scenario: LHO saw Baker and Truly run by and goes to the 2nd floor to check their progress. I disagree with Sean that there is only one realistic scenario. As I described a few posts above there is at least one other possible scenario. Roughly during the same time interval that Oswald is seen upstairs near the lunchroom/ or by Reid's desk, Officer Mooney encounters the two unidentified men coming down the stairs to the 2nd floor. There are a couple possibilities here: 1. Oswald is supposed to rendevous with these two men. Use your imagination to think of a reason why. 2. Oswald is freaked out by what he witnessed out on the steps and is seeking out these two men to find out what the hell happened up there. But for either #1 or #2, Lee would have to have known in advance that something was going on. I am not claiming that I believe these are anything more than possibilites, at least for now. Deputy Sheriff Mooney testified to the WC that he believed the two men coming down the stairs were also plainclothes deputy sheriffs. He does not identify who they were, nor does he say whether he asked them for credentials. Were these two men ever identified? No.

Since I am the class dunce, who naively believes in the complete innocence of Prayer Man Lee you will have to spell it out for me. Ray, I think Sean has described one reasonable scenario: LHO saw Baker and Truly run by and goes to the 2nd floor to check their progress. I disagree with Sean that there is only one realistic scenario. As I described a few posts above there is at least one other possible scenario. Roughly during the same time interval that Oswald is seen upstairs near the lunchroom/ or by Reid's desk, Officer Mooney encounters the two unidentified men coming down the stairs to the 2nd floor. There are a couple possibilities here: 1. Oswald is supposed to rendevous with these two men. Use your imagination to think of a reason why. 2. Oswald is freaked out by what he witnessed out on the steps and is seeking out these two men to find out what the hell happened up there. But for either #1 or #2, Lee would have to have known in advance that something was going on. I am not claiming that I believe these are anything more than possibilites, at least for now.

One more passing thought ... Regarding Oswald's location in/near the 2nd floor floor lunchroom area following the shooting. Just after Officer Mooney leaves the 2nd floor and starts up the steps, he encounters two unidentified men in plain clothes coming down the steps. Oswald may have been a few short steps away from a possible encounter with these individuals. Edited: to correct the Officers name

Some very interesting thoughts in there, Robert. I think he may have nipped into the front-of-house storage room for just the reason you are giving for a purported trip upstairs to the lunchroom: to get his thoughts together and come up with a new plan. I personally doubt that Oswald knew all about the assassination, but I do imagine he was implicated in some way. Otherwise the trap that was laid would not have snapped down so viciously and tightly on him. I believe the Prayer Man frames in Wiegman and Darnell may well be showing us a man in sudden deep shock. My point about the scenario I laid out--Oswald following Baker & Truly upstairs--is not that I believe this is what happened (I don't) but that it is the all but necessary consequence of believing both that Oswald is Prayer Man and the lunchroom incident happened. Those buying into both elements may sincerely believe that their position is doubly supportive of Oswald's innocence: what could be sinister about standing on the steps watching the motorcade or buying a Coca-Cola? The problem is that these two actions, when combined in very quick succession, become problematical. The bolded portions above echo my own sentiments regarding Oswald's behavior and Prayer Man's appearance in Darnell and Weigman. Going back to "Secure Location" psychology, PM/Oswald goes from a secure position in the corner of the entrance alcove to another secure position in the storage room under the stairs. Another consideration regarding the Coke issue, Sean: LHO's first visit to the Coke machine would have been under less stressful circumstances before the motorcade arrived. After the shooting, it is possible Oswald was stressed, and decided to make another trip to the 2nd floor. This did not necessarily entail purchasing another coke if he already had one in hand. The 2nd trip to the second floor lunch room area may simply have been because he figured other employees would gather there, or it may have had a more strategic motive he adopted after gathering his thoughts near the Storage Closet on the first floor.

For all we know, Sean, some or all of the others in the Geneva Hines group also got cokes. Can you prove they did not? An interesting observation. The only sodas I am aware of in the TSBD witness testimonies are the Dr. Pepper on the sixth floor (linked to BRW) and the alleged Coke that LHO was holding. After finding the empty Dr. Pepper near the SE Sixth Floor Window, it seems reasonable that investigators should have been seeking info on all personnel that had purchased soft drinks from the machines that day. This would have included some thorough questioning of Geneva Hine, who regularly made change for those purchases.

Pat, I never said Baker, Truly or Reid were trying to or wished to frame Oswald. They probably had no personal desire whatsoever to see Oswald framed. Baker & Truly would have fallen in with the lunchroom story simply because they were leaned on heavily by the authorities who were desperate to deprive Oswald of his alibi--and Reid in turn would have been leaned on by Truly & Ochus Campbell, who were desperate simply to cover their own asses. Did the improvised story foresee and tie up all loose ends? Of course not. It would be naive--and anachronistic--to expect it would. Can you suggest a location other than the second-floor lunchroom to which the incident might have been better relocated? And do you really believe Oswald hurried upstairs to buy a coke immediately after becoming aware that shots had been fired at the President? If so, how do you explain his calm demeanour as described by Baker and Truly? Sean, Regarding the suggestion that the first floor encounter between Baker and Oswald was in fact moved to the second floor: The motive would have been to get LHO away from a group that had been watching the motorcade at the time of the shots, to a higher floor that could be designated as part of his escape route. The problem was that there were witnesses who had seen Oswald on the 2nd floor during the time frame in question. The second floor was the highest floor the encounter could be moved to that would not blatantly contradict other witness testimony. It would have been a simple adjustment to insert the Baker/Oswald encounter in prior to the encounter with Reid. IOW, Reid does not have to be lying. Truly and Baker were the only witnesses who needed to alter their testimony in this scenario.

"out with Bill Shelley in front," when taken in context What context are you referring to Pat? , suggests Oswald told Fritz he saw Bill Shelley when leaving the building. Some have tried to twist it into being a claim by Oswald he was out front at the time of the shooting. Nearly everyone agrees that Fritz's notes are vague. The placement, however, of Oswald being near Shelley is not. And there is a very limited window when Oswald could have been in the company of Shelley. The possibility does exist that Prayer Man is Oswald. But we've been over this and that doesn't make a lot of sense, seeing as none of those present recalled such a thing. This issue was discussed earlier in this very thread by Sean, myself and others. We decided there were visible suggestions in the film and photo record that Prayer Man could have made a late entry to the back of the stairs while the attention of the other TSBD employees on the stairs were focused on the Motorcade approaching, passing them, and then the subsequent chaos when the shots were fired. Of course, one could say they all lied. We can not rule out the possibility that some individuals may have lied. But another alternative is that many in the group never turned around to see who was behind them during those moments after the Presidential Limo turned onto Elm. Ha. I watched the Newsroom on HBO last night. It dealt with a producer who'd edited an interview to suit his needs. Now I see that Richard has added the comment "The possibility does exist that Prayer Man is Oswald." into his post as if it was something I wrote, so that he could comment on this possibility. It's something I might have written. But I didn't write it. And it changed the context of what I was writing about. And now I see that Ray has corrected "my typos" and changed the word "Oswald" to the word "Baker" when he responded to another post, when in fact there was no typo and I meant to write Oswald. It's more than a bit ironic, IMO, that I just wrote a post about words, and how they are imprecise and often misinterpreted, and here I find my imprecise posts misinterpreted. When I wrote "But we've been over this and that doesn't make a lot of sense, seeing as none of those present recalled such a thing" some assumed I was talking about "Prayer Man" when I was actually referring to Fritz's notes, which I discussed with Fetzer ad nauseum earlier in the year. So let me be clear. I find the possibility Oswald was Prayer Man intriguing. I find the possibility Baker and Truly noticed Oswald as they entered the building, and then lied about it, and then moved this encounter to a place STILL suggesting Oswald's innocence, and then got Mrs. Reid to lie about it in statements not only suggesting Oswald's innocence, but government complicity in framing Oswald (via the shirt fibers) silly. Pat, I made a mistake in composing my reply to your post. I incorrectly located one of my statements into a grouping with yours. My apologies. Definitely not intentional. I will edit the post to relocate the statement into my own statements.

Robert, I should have qualified my original statement better to say the "man who appears to be Prayer Man". This clip was certainly filmed later than the Weigman clip we have been viewing in this thread. There are more police arriving at the front entrance of the TSBD. So it's safe to say Lovelady would be long gone by now. The resolution is bad, but I have no problem seeing the right arm and hand. The left hand is the one I am more interested in.

Hello Sean If that is a bottle of Coke that Payer Man is holding, it still bothers me that, in both pictures, he appears to be holding it with both hands. Does this seem normal? As I stated earlier in this thread, the posture reminds me of the stance my late father used to assume after he bought his first 8 mm home movie camera in the early 60's and he was out in public looking for something to film. We used to say he looked like a vulture waiting for something to die. Robert, The YouTube film clip that William Kelly linked to shows Prayer Man in the first segment. Prayer Man lowers his right hand down to his side. There also appears to be upward movement with his left hand moving closer to his face. If you have time to take a look at it, I would be interested in your take. Hello Richard Are you referring to the link Mr. Kelly posted in the first post of this thread? Yes. Here is the link: ▶ L.H. Oswald Leaving TSBD November 22 1963? - YouTube

Hello Sean If that is a bottle of Coke that Payer Man is holding, it still bothers me that, in both pictures, he appears to be holding it with both hands. Does this seem normal? As I stated earlier in this thread, the posture reminds me of the stance my late father used to assume after he bought his first 8 mm home movie camera in the early 60's and he was out in public looking for something to film. We used to say he looked like a vulture waiting for something to die. Robert, The YouTube film clip that William Kelly linked to shows Prayer Man in the first segment. Prayer Man lowers his right hand down to his side. There also appears to be upward movement with his left hand moving closer to his face. If you have time to take a look at it, I would be interested in your take.

Nice one Richard! i Have no doubt that Prayer man was there, and I am assuming there is no reason to doubt that the others you mention were there. Since this is such a great thread, and you seem to have done the homework, perhaps you would elaborate, for the sake of completeness. Ray, Joe Molina is a good example. He gave his location as being on the top step of the entrance. He mentions Otis Williams standing next to him to his left, and Pauline Sanders being "close to there". He also mentioned seeing Roy Truly and Mr. Campbell standing together. But in Otis Williams FBI Statement of 3/19/64, he cannot recall who was standing on either side of him that day. Campbell did vouch for Sanders being out near him. As for Sanders, the only person she mentions being out on the steps with her is Sarah Stanton. Truly and Campbell likewise fail to mention Molina's name. Jones and Lewis also give specific information concerning their locations and who they were near. No one mentions either one of their names as being in the "Stair Group". So are we to believe, Molina, Jones, Lewis, and Prayer Man were not on the steps? It has been suggested numerous times that the failure of witnesses to include a certain individual in their testimony is proof that individual was not present. I was simply trying to illustrate the faulty logic.

Since nobody there noticed Prayer Man either, I submit that argument falls of its own weight. Exactly. And let's bear in mind that Oswald at this point is not someone whose presence will be especially noticed. He's still a couple of hours away from becoming one of the most (in)famous men on the planet. It's not as if anyone is going to be looking around going, 'Gee, I wonder if Lee Harvey Oswald's here'. Lee was not a real attention-grabber before 12:30 on November 22, 1963. Going through the TSBD witness testimonies, many of the employees had either never met him or never talked to him. A very low profile guy. What do Joe Molina, Carl Edward Jones, Roy Edward Lewis, and Prayer Man all have in common? No one else in the "Step Group" testified these individuals were on the steps.

"The cover-up is, after all, a process, not an event, with many errors, early inadequacies, and/or improvisation, many of them subsequently abandoned." Thanks for that one, Paul Rigby. And a very thought provoking post by Sean. It might be beneficial at this point to repost Marion Baker's original affidavit from 11/22/63: (I have bold faced certain portions) "Friday November 22, 1963 I was riding motorcycle escort for the President of the United States. At approximately 12:30 pm I was on Houston Street and the President's car had made a left turn from Houston onto Elm Street. Just as I approached Elm Street and Houston I heard three shots. I realized those shots were rifle shots and I began to try to figure out where they came from. I decided the shots had come from the building on the northwest corner of Elm and Houston. This building is used by the Board of Education for book storage. I jumped off my motor and ran inside the building. As I entered the door I saw several people standing around. I asked these people where the stairs were. A man stepped forward and stated he was the building manager and that he would show me where the stairs were. I followed the man to the rear of the building and he said, "Let's take the elevator." The elevator was hung several floors up so we used the stairs instead. As we reached the third or fourth floor I saw a man walking away from the stairway. I called to the man and he turned around and came back toward me. The manager said, "I know that man, he works here." I then turned the man loose and went up to the top floor. The man I saw was a white man approximately 30 years old, 5'9", 165 pounds, dark hair and wearing a light brown jacket. "

"out with Bill Shelley in front," when taken in context What context are you referring to Pat? , suggests Oswald told Fritz he saw Bill Shelley when leaving the building. Some have tried to twist it into being a claim by Oswald he was out front at the time of the shooting. Nearly everyone agrees that Fritz's notes are vague. The placement, however, of Oswald being near Shelley is not. And there is a very limited window when Oswald could have been in the company of Shelley. The possibility does exist that Prayer Man is Oswald. But we've been over this and that doesn't make a lot of sense, seeing as none of those present recalled such a thing. This issue was discussed earlier in this very thread by Sean, myself and others. We decided there were visible suggestions in the film and photo record that Prayer Man could have made a late entry to the back of the stairs while the attention of the other TSBD employees on the stairs were focused on the Motorcade approaching, passing them, and then the subsequent chaos when the shots were fired. Of course, one could say they all lied. We can not rule out the possibility that some individuals may have lied. But another alternative is that many in the group never turned around to see who was behind them during those moments after the Presidential Limo turned onto Elm.

It's one possibility, Ray. One item that leaps out of Fritz's WC testimony is the commotion of various DPD personnel, SS Agents, and FBI agents coming and leaving the room during the Oswald interviews. There were times when Bookhout was there; other times when Hosty was there; and at least one occasion when Hosty and Bookhout were there together. We are also stuck with Fritz being unable to remember on what day Oswald gave some of the relevant answers to some of the questions. I am not aware of an Interrogation Timeline showing who was present at which interviews, but it might be handy to put one together as a reference.

BUMP - Thanks for that TimeLine Richard For sure Bill. It is still a work in progress. I should also note that the many of the events in the Timeline are based on shots being fired at 12:30.

A few observations: Mrs. Reid, Roy Truly, Campbell, Officer Marion Baker, and Possibly Prayer Man/Oswald all are in close proximity within seconds of each other at the front entrance area. Approximately 1 minute later (give or take a few seconds) they are all once again in close proximity to each other in the immediate vicinity of the 2nd floor lunch room, although they took different routes to reach that destination. You could also add Otis Williams to that group since he was on the steps near Prayer Man, and also turns up in the group Geneva Hines describes. A large group apparently in a hurry to get to the same destination. As Ray pointed out, early researchers Leo Sauvage, Weisberg, and Sylvia Meagher used the 2nd floor lunch room encounter to vindicate LHO from being the 6th floor shooter. One wonders how these researchers would have reacted to the physical evidence of Prayer Man if it had been available to them.