Richard Hocking

Since this is a thread dedicated to Oswald's coke (long overdue imo), I would like to chip in with a bit of trivia that may or may not add any value to the discussion. During the 1950's, most Coke Vending Machines dispensed 6 1/2 ounce bottles of coke. In 1963, Some of these older Vending machines were still in operation, but newer machines had been introduced that offered the 10 ounce size. And I believe the "Giant" 12 ounce coke bottles were also just coming out around that time. If you look at some of the Lunch room photos, there are empty bottles and crates. It might be interesting to see what size cokes were being sold in the Coke Machine. I can tell you from experience that 6 1/2 ounce cokes went down fast.

A brief note of appreciation, Richard, for all your work in this thread. It's been exemplary. Thanks for it, and keep it coming. Paul Many thanks, Paul.

Robert, If you go through the whole timeline, you will see there are various contradictions, along with bits of testimony that are suspicious. This all goes back to the original intent of this timeline. From the inception, it was never intended to be a theory or a comprehensive explanation on my part. I did not exclude certain witness testimony just because I myself did not believe it. The intent was to organize witness testimony (including testimony that I do not believe) around certain events that I considered to be significant regarding the events that unfolded in the TSBD just before and just after the assassination. There was some interpretation on my part, especially in assigning times or time ranges to events, but I do have a reasonable argument for assigning every one of those time ranges. I remain open to new information and suggestions. I have gathered new information since this timeline was first presented. Prayer man is a perfect example, but there are other events and testimony that need to be added. And I am in the process of updating. It is important to remember when looking at this timeline that its value lies in being a guide or a frame of reference. So when I do finish the update, it is still going to contain contradictions and some testimony I consider to be suspect. It is up to the user put the pieces together when trying to interpret what actually happened. Add Edit: I should include a thank you to Robert for making his point, prompting me to do some necessary clarification.

You are right, Bill. The Timeline is ripe to be updated. Including the items you have mentioned, here is the short list of updates I believe are appropriate to include: 1. PrayerMan coming out onto the steps 2. Movement of Lovelady, Shelley, and Frazier after leaving steps 3. Vicky Adams encounter with what she believes are 2 plain clothes DPD in the West Elevator on the 2nd floor (after power has gone out) 4. Denham arrest of subject on 3rd floor Other items I want to add, but need to get a good time range on: • Gloria Calvary encounter with Lovelady and Shelley • Truly call to Aikens to get Oswald info from Employment application • Lovelady and Shelley moving to guard the elevators And anything on the whereabouts of Jack Daugherty. I would welcome any input for time-stamping the above items, with citations of course.

One other item concerning the unidentified flim clip Bill Kelly has posted. If we can identify the police officer who pulled up on the Three Wheeler Cycle, he should have filed a report of his activities. That report may list the time he arrived and parked in front of the TSBD entrance.

Bill, First off, I think the two portions of that clip may possibly show two different individuals: A man standing back near the NW corner where PM was seen earlier, and then "College Boy". Now, focusing only on "College Boy", there is a visual clue. Postal Collection Boxes are typically 48" tall. College Boy is standing right next to it. If the collection box is 4 foot, College Boy appears too short for LHO. If we could show the Collection Box is shorter than 48", it would be time to reconsider some possibilities.

He and Lovelady are just at the 'island'. In a second or two they will turn around and notice Baker and Truly at the TSBD front entrance. Sean, OK. In his WC testimony, Shelley said that they ran out "on" (onto?) the island, but in the clip it appears that he and Lovelady are walking down the middle of Elm Street Extension, towards the railway yard / parking lot. At the very end of the clip, it looks like Lovelady starts running in that direction, leaving Shelley behind. Thanks, --Tommy Edit: I watched it frame-by-frame as my old computer was downloading the clip at a slowish wi-fi "hot spot," and I noticed that when the sun shines briefly on him a couple of times, one can see that the shorter, "Lovelady" figure has a white collar. Which leads me to believe that this isn't Lovelady after all. Tommy, Can you post the frame (or frames) where you believe you detect a white collar? There are numerous white artifacts that flash on the clip in the vicinity of Lovelady and the man next to him, and also on the TSBD in the background. That would explain why the white spot only appears "briefly on him". I believe that is probably what you are seeing.

Excellent that we finally have heard from Buell Frazier. Would have been nice to see the actual correspondence between BWF and Gary. But I agree, Sean. BWF, who was standing a couple feet away at the time, has effectively limited the possibilities to Shelley and Lovelady. A powerful statement against any other employee or any stranger being at Prayer Man's location. And we have thoroughly covered the possibilities of either Shelley or Lovelady being PM previously. This thread just got a turbo boost. On a side note, this throws a knuckleball into the previous discussions concerning the identification of Shelley and Senkel in the William Shelley thread. Hi Guys Are there any pictures, images or film of Shelley circa November 1963? Was he interviewed by any TV crew, snapped in a clear(ish) image or does Buell Wesley Frazier even have an old image of the two of them together around that time? Sean, I have a couple of questions if you don’t mind. After reviewing the Darnell film we can clearly see Baker running towards the steps at speed and apart from a lightly running lady in a dress no one else appears to be travelling or even reacting with anywhere near the same speed or purpose. From the speed of Bakers motion it stands to reason that unless he (Baker) suddenly slows down, pauses or stops when he reaches the steps of TSBD, his forward motion will likely carry him right up the steps and into the building. In fact this is the very reason I am convinced Baker enters the building alone and without Truly. Now herein lays my question. PM man can clearly be seen standing towards the top left of the steps in a relatively consistent position and pose as we have seen him in earlier film/images as Baker reaches the bottom step. So if Baker does indeed continue his run up the steps he will surely pass PM man before entering the building. How does this fit into the sequence and timing of the Baker/Oswald encounter? Could you please clarify or elaborate on how Oswald/PM, entering the building after Baker but before Truly (whom I presume is somewhere in the melee at the bottom of the steps) and projects himself into a position where he encounters, attracts suspicion and is questioned by Baker necessitating the need for Truly to interject that he (Oswald) is an employee? Kind regards - Steve Hi Steve, here is a link to a thread that tried to establish the photo ID of William Shelley: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=19178&hl=%2Bwilliam+%2Bshelley After BWF's description of Shelley being taller than Lovelady, red hair, and slender, it is probably time to revisit.

Excellent that we finally have heard from Buell Frazier. Would have been nice to see the actual correspondence between BWF and Gary. But I agree, Sean. BWF, who was standing a couple feet away at the time, has effectively limited the possibilities to Shelley and Lovelady. A powerful statement against any other employee or any stranger being at Prayer Man's location. And we have thoroughly covered the possibilities of either Shelley or Lovelady being PM previously. This thread just got a turbo boost. On a side note, this throws a knuckleball into the previous discussions concerning the identification of Shelley and Senkel in the William Shelley thread.

Robert, Viles said he was Across Elm St from the main entrance of TSBD with Kounas and Parker http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh22/pdf/WH22_CE_1381.pdf Parker said she was standing with Viles and Kounas http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh22/pdf/WH22_CE_1381.pdf Kounas said she was standing across the street with Viles and Parker from http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/29/2949-002.gif I don't know about lunch, but your take sounds reasonable ... paused on the steps and then crossed the street as the motorcade got closer.

Aiken affidavit of March 20, 1964 does not mention the time of the Truly phone call http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh22/pdf/WH22_CE_1381.pdf

Begin excerpt for Truly testimony here http://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wch/vol7/page382.php Truly places his call to Aiken at 10-12 minutes after the 2nd floor lunchroom encounter. It this is accurate, that would translate to 12:41 - 12:44. I would also like to hear Aiken's version of when the call from Truly came, but so far, I cannot find it.

There is some information about Aiken here http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?mode=searchResult&absPageId=145742

Bill, This sounds like it might have been an office worker or secretary. Do you have any other info?

Thanks for proving my point, Richard. The FBI obtained statements from people they believed were IN the building on 11-22. They did not receive statements from ALL the employees of the second warehouse. So, how many employees worked in that building? Almost certainly more than three. So where did these other workers eat their lunch on 11-22? And from where did they watch the motorcade? We have NO idea. The fact remains that Prayer Man is too blurry to be identified as Oswald, and can not be proclaimed to have been Oswald via Occam's Razor or any other method. We don't know who it was. It MIGHT have been Oswald. That's significant. Let's not pretend it isn't. But that's where it's gonna rest without some sort of corroborative statement from the relatives of Oswald, Baker or Truly, or perhaps even Buell Frazier. It's gotta move beyond "we think it looks like him and can't figure out who else it could be" before anyone can say "Hey, it's Oswald!" and not look a little silly. As for me, I suspect "Prayer Man" was a woman. There's something about the arms and neck, I suppose. There were a number of women claiming to have been on the steps who've never been identified in the photos. We simply lack the resources to identify these people, and match the names with the faces. Perhaps Gary Mack can ask Frazier to go through the photos and footage of the steps and ID as many people as possible. I think Danny Arce is still alive. Maybe he can be approached as well. Pat, Your point has not been proven. And I think we will see that your assertion was incorrect. The FBI was charged with getting statements from everyone who was in the TSBD that day. They did exactly that. In addition, they took statements from the three employees at the warehouse at 1917 North Houston. You are implying they took only a random sampling of the employees there. That would be an inefficient method to gather evidence, and it was not the case. In 2000, Jerry Organ researched the history of the TSBD and wrote an article titled “Murder Perch to Museum”. It now appears on the McAdams website http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/organ4.htm Here is a quote from that article, below (note that the TSBD was formerly called the Sexton Building): “…In 1963, the year the company consolidated most of its operation in the former Sexton Building, it employed 33 workers, including 19 warehouse men, of whom four remained at the old warehouse at 1917 N. Houston Street, a few blocks north. Most Depository workers used the parking lot of this smaller warehouse …” Four employees at the North Houston Warehouse. I previously listed the 3 employees interviewed who were working at the North Houston warehouse that day, Aiken, Shields, and Wester. There were 2 other employees from the warehouse who were “on loan” to the TSBD to help with the work load and laying the floors: Danny Arce and Bonnie Ray Williams. Link to Arce testimony below: http://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wch/vol6/page364.php As you know, Arce and Williams were also interviewed. In other words, all the known employees of both buildings were interviewed or accounted for. Now if you have reliable information that there was an employee in either building that was unaccounted for, please post the name. If not, I believe this issue is settled.

Regarding a full accounting of all employees who were in the TSBD, the FBI did exactly that. On March 16, 1964, WC General Counsel Lee Rankin sent a letter to the FBI (Hoover) requesting a signed statement be obtained from each person known to have been in the building on November 22, 1963. http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=11104&relPageId=2 The FBI complied with that request and more. On April 3, 1964 J. Edgar Hoover sent Rankin copies of 73 signed statements. There were not only statements from all known individuals from the TSBD Building, but also statements from 3 employees who worked at the warehouse at 1917 North Houston Street (none of them were in the TSBD that day). Haddon Spurgeion Aiken was at the warehouse on North Houston Edward Shields was at Mullendorf’s café with James Lacy and Givens Franklin Emmet Wester, Stockman at Warehouse ate lunch in the warehouse The FBI also took statements from several employees who did not show up for work or had left the building earlier to go somewhere for lunch that day. Virginia Barnum worked at Mcgraw Hill that day but went out for lunch. Jack Cason, President of the TSBD, left the building at 12:10 and went home Warren Caster, District Manager for Southwestern Publishing, was at N Texas State University that day Spaulding Earnest Jones, Manager of the Macmillan Co. was out for lunch sitting at the Blue Front Restaurant Herbert Junker was having lunch with Jones at the Blue Front when news of the assassination came. Helen Palmer of McGraw Hill did not go to work that day, but she did go to Love Field The FBI did not obtain a statement from Joe Bergin. He was a Regional Manager for Scott Foresman and was in a passenger airliner that day and did not go to work. The FBI made a comprehensive effort to locate every employee and their whereabouts that day. To suggest that both the FBI and the entire group of TBSD employees failed to notice another employee, or a stranger standing on the steps is walking on thin ice. *Edited to specify the location of the person in question (PM).

Bill, you say Oswald "didn't buy the coke yet'. Is there any reason why he could not have bought it befor he came to the entrance. What proof have you that he hadn't "bought it yet? BK: Well the proof is in the film - as Baker has yet to enter the building, and we know that he runs to the back of the first floor with Truly and then goes up the steps behind Truly and sees Oswald through the window of the second floor lunchroom door, having entered the vestibule through the south door. Baker moves closer and sees Oswald walking away from him through the window and then opens the door and confronts him before he buys the coke. Truly ids Oswald as an employee and Baker and Truly move on while Oswald buys his coke and then leves through the same door he entered - the south door that leads to the office, where he passes Mrs. Reid with the full coke in hand. So why not stick to what is known to be true - as speculating whether "Prayer Man" is holding a coke, camera or sandwich is just that pure speculation that doesn't add to what we know. Of course "Prayer Man" could be someone other than Oswald and be holding a coke. But if it is Oswald, he hasn't bought the coke yet. While Dave Reitzes tries to discount all witness testimony in his Skeptic article, as i mention in my "The Perspective Part" blog post - we are entirely dependent on what witnesses say happened, and can believe them or not, but we still depend on them to tell us what happened. BK Bill, you say Oswald "didn't buy the coke yet'. Is there any reason why he could not have bought it befor he came to the entrance. What proof have you that he hadn't "bought it yet"? Seems like there are several unspoken assumptions in this thread. One is that PM cannot be on the top step/or Entrance Lobby when Baker goes by, and then also see Baker in the 2nd floor lunch room area. A second one is that Oswald could only have purchased one Coke that day. In my own mind, I have not made those concessions just yet. I understand that Sean has presented a comprehensive scenario that eliminates the 2nd floor encounter. He has most definitely done an outstanding job providing News articles, Photo and film evidence, witness testimony, and applied sound logic and critical thinking to make his case. A tremendous effort that he has shared with the JFK Research community. But I also believe that we can begin from the same starting point (with Prayer Man on the steps, Baker and Truly coming in through the entrance) and entertain the possibility of some of the story unfolding in a different way, or in a slightly different form than Sean's scenario.

Robert, Good point. However.... He might have been raising it in order to change the shutter speed and/or the aperture setting... --Tommy If I'm not mistaken, I believe both the shutter speed and aperture setting on the Imperial Reflex camera were fixed. It was not that expensive a camera. Another possibility -- the Imperial Reflex has a plastic knob that turns to advance the film. PM is standing in a shadowy area. He might have raised the camera up higher to get a better look at the film sequence indicator to make sure it had been wound correctly for the next shot. A common camera issue in those days.

Excellent work, Richard, it's good to get these listed systematically like this. Just a couple of small additions to copperfasten your points: -Billy Lovelady is even more definitively ruled out as Prayer Man for the simple reason that the two show up right beside each other in the Wiegman footage: Now unless someone is going to come forward and tell us that Prayer Man is actually a rather butch woman, we're still stuck with the mother of all questions: Is Prayer Man none other than Lee Oswald, coke bottle in hand? Could it really be that simple? You bet your life it could. Except I do not see a coke in Prayer Man's hands yet, maybe a later film will show that, a film taken after Prayer Man has gone upstairs to the coke machine. Of course I make no claim to being a photo expert. BTW, compliments to Richard Hocking and yourself Sean for the breakdown of TSBD employees. You and Richard have done a fantastic job on this thread. Ladies and Gentleman,I am a new poster but a long time lurker. I have been a student of the assassination since the late 80's and find this post to be most intriguing. It has taken me several days to follow the action but have since had a few thoughts. I apologize in advance for not being able to cut and paste the photos and videos that I wish to reference, but I would like to share my impressions. It appears to me that Prayer man is holding a camera. He raises it to his face as the motorcade passes and then lowers it as the action passes. He then rotates his body left to face the crowd on the stairwell as they begin to react to the commotion following the shots. From the photos and videos in this thread, there is a point when Prayer man is looking to his right and in the next video rotates his body to his left, his hands never change position, indicative of someone holding a camera looking through a viewfinder. Another observation. If Prayer Man was Oswald and was drinking his Coke, ie, the glare visible in some of the footage, would his Coke still be full as Mrs. Reid testified to later, or would it have been half empty by then. This assumes PM/ Oswald returned to the 2nd floor from the entrance? Another thought, if Prayer Man/Oswald was eating his lunch and ham sandwich at the front entrance as suggested, would the ham sandwich show a reflection as seen in the video? I am jumping into deep water, but you have to get wet at some point. I mean no slight on the amazing work Sean and the rest of you have done. These are just field notes from someone familiar with the assassination and intrigued by the questions brought forth in this thread. Much respect to all of you. Dave David, Thanks for your observations. There are several other members who believe Prayer Man is holding a camera. There is also an interesting story that lends support to that interpretation. Oswald's Imperial Reflex camera is unaccounted for that day. On the afternoon of November 22, 1963, the Ruth Paine residence became a beehive of Dallas Police activity. Her home and garage were thoroughly searched by a team of Dallas Police officers looking for anything that belonged to Oswald, any type of evidence that might have significance in the assassination. This team included Detectives Adamcik, Stovall, Rose, Moore, Walthers and Detective McCabe of the Irving PD. They actually searched Paine's residence on two days, the 22nd and the 23rd. Oswald owned two cameras: A Minox, and an Imperial Reflex. The search team reported finding one camera that belonged to Oswald and one that belonged to Ruth Paine. The DPD took pictures of Oswald's possessions. One of the pictures shows a camera: http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/a/a7/Photo_wcd102_052.jpg The camera in the picture is not the Imperial Reflex. It does resemble the Minox. Could Oswald have taken the Imperial Reflex to the TSBD on Friday, the 22nd? And more specifically, could that be the object in PM's hands? The saga of the Imperial Reflex continues. On December 8th, According to Robert Oswald, he stops by the Paine's house to pick up the remainder of Lee's possessions. He takes a box out of the garage that contains several items including -- the Imperial Reflex Camera. How did this slip past the Police search team? It is after all, the camera alleged to have taken the Backyard photos. In February and March of 1964, the FBI is trying to clean up the loose ends and questions regarding the Camera issues. Robert Oswald turns over the camera to the FBI. James Hosty interviews McCabe. McCabe now remembers that he actually saw the Imperial Reflex and moved it onto a dresser because he did not think it belonged to Oswald. None of the other members of the Police Search team recalled seeing the Imperial Reflex while they were there. The FBI issued some reports to lay the issue to rest. Some reading material on this issue: http://jfkresearch.freehomepage.com/mccabe.htm http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh25/pdf/WH25_CE_2557.pdf

Hi Can you please ask GM who he thinks 'Prayer Man' might be? Thanks - Steve Hi Steve, In post #57 (p4) of this thread Bill Kelly posted this concerning Gary's opinion: " ... Mack also says that no one who worked at the TSBD saw Oswald on the steps, or said they did, and the man is too short to be the 5' 9" Oswald, and that by the time the frame is filmed Oswald is on or waiting for the bus, which doesn't make any sense if Baker runs into Oswald on the second floor about a minute later. I think Gary will alter that statement after reflection. ..." Edit: Gary replies that the quote above concerns a different film clip (not the Darnell clip with PM in it). This quote is probably in relation to the clip posted by Bill Kelly in his original post on this thread. To my knowledge, no one has identified the photographer/source of that clip. Hi Richard Thank you so much for taking the time to express GM's views and even though Gary was kind enough to mail me directly I appreciate your effort. Thanks - Steve You are welcome, Steve.

Richard, I'm sorry, but Gary Mack cannot possibly believe that Prayer Man is Billy Lovelady. He knows that the Wiegman frames show Prayer Man standing in the shadows beside Lovelady: And Gary cannot possibly be telling people that Lovelady and Bill Shelley lied outlandishly in their WC testimony. So can you please give us the exact words Gary used in his message on this matter? Thanks, Sean Sean, Since the forum Guidelines advise against reproducing exact extracts from Private emails, I tried to accurately paraphrase the essence of Gary's position. BTW, Gary originally contacted me to identify James Darnell. I asked him for his opinion on PM and he replied. GM exact quote in Purple below: "As for PM, I think he’s Billy Lovelady who was shorter and heavier than Oswald; also, the Couch film shows two other men, not Shelley and Lovelady, walking along Elm so that means Lovelady must still be on the steps." I feel like I am doing a bit of tight-rope walking here, acting as a go-between, but I did it because I know there are forum members who are interested in what Gary Mack's take is on PM. To be perfectly clear about my own position: • I remain convinced that Lovelady and Shelley are leaving the Steps area before Baker arrives as seen in the Couch film • I believe PM is Lee Oswald • Frazier and LHO are both visible in the Darnell shot, and they both are the proper height.

Another message from Gary Mack to clarify his position, paraphrased in Purple below: [begin paraphrase] Gary is positive of his identification of Jimmy Darnell in the Cook film. Gary is having second thoughts about the ID of the man in the Brown suit and hat in the Bond #5. Not positive at this point of his ID. Regarding PM: Gary feels PM is Billy Lovelady who was shorter and heavier than Oswald. He also says the Couch film shows two other men, not Shelley and Lovelady walking along Elm, so Lovelady must still be on the steps. [end paraphrase] A final note: Gary is a member of this forum and may be contacted through the Personal Message feature.

Hi Can you please ask GM who he thinks 'Prayer Man' might be? Thanks - Steve Hi Steve, In post #57 (p4) of this thread Bill Kelly posted this concerning Gary's opinion: " ... Mack also says that no one who worked at the TSBD saw Oswald on the steps, or said they did, and the man is too short to be the 5' 9" Oswald, and that by the time the frame is filmed Oswald is on or waiting for the bus, which doesn't make any sense if Baker runs into Oswald on the second floor about a minute later. I think Gary will alter that statement after reflection. ..." Edit: Gary replies that the quote above concerns a different film clip (not the Darnell clip with PM in it). This quote is probably in relation to the clip posted by Bill Kelly in his original post on this thread. To my knowledge, no one has identified the photographer/source of that clip.

Regarding the Bond #5 photo, Gary Mack says the man in the Brown suit and hat is actually Wiegman. He also sent a film clip from a Don Cook/KTVT film. Gary said James Darnell is the guy with no hat, with the camera at 1:59 in the film clip. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kaVM2-9f3Q&feature=player_embedded

Another very interesting quote from Baker, Ray. Do you know when that interview took place? It is presented in the context of evidence for the HSCA, but I did not see a date for the quotes.