Richard Hocking

Murray photo showing Amos Euins in the back seat of a police car (from Robin Unger's site): Is this a crop taken from a larger photo? It does not appear on a Murray Contact Sheet on Robin's site. Asking the question here in the hope that Gary Mack, Todd Vaughn, Robin or someone else knowledgeable in this area might be able to provide an answer.

Thank you, James.

"... Clint Hill's pain taking journey through his memories..." [?] "... a lone gunman whose emotional and mental profile matched that of an assassin ..." Is a comedy club tour forthcoming? Hey Vince, do you have any photos of Dallas SS Agent Forrest Sorrels in your collection?

Richard, Good work! Now, Regarding Edgar Eugene Bradley... According to a Tom Bethell's diary, the photo of "two men apparently under arrest" in which Mrs. Aydelotte, in December of 1967, identified Edgar Eugene Bradley, had earlier been published in the Fort Worth Star Telegram newspaper (date unspecified). One can only hope that Mrs. Adyelotte didn't identify Bradley as the tall, sandy-haired "tramp" from one of the Three Tramp photos that were published in the Fort Worth newspaper! I seem to remember that in one or two of those photos, the older, third "tramp" (E. Howard Hunt?, Chauncey Holt?, Gus Abrams?) was almost completely "hidden" behind the tallest "tramp," giving the impression that the policemen were escorting only two hobos, not three. I wonder if it wasn't one of these apparent "two tramp" photos in which Mrs. Aydelotte picked out her ex-friend "Gene Bradley" ? Does anyone know of any photos of two non-tramps, "apparently under arrest" in front of the TSBD, published in the Fort Worth Star-Telegram? --Tommy Part of Bethell's diary from McAdams website: [...] 6. A Fort Worth Star-Telegram photograph showing two men in front of the School Book Depository apparently under arrest following the assassination was shown to Mrs. Aydelotte. According to [bill] Turner, "Without hesitation, she pointed to the lead man and said: 'That's Gene Bradley.'" [...] http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/bethell6.htm Tommy, The unspecified date that the photo was published in the Fort Worth Star Telegram newspaper is a major problem. It would not be surprising for the paper to have published dozens of photos during the end of November and through December … possible arrest suspects and witnesses in police cars who could be mistaken for suspects. What we know for certain is that Mrs. Aydelotte positively identified Bradley in one of those photos taken in front of the TSBD. Considering age and physical characteristics, looking at the photos of Bradley, it’s difficult for me to imagine anyone confusing him with any of the tramps shown in the photos on Houston St. Neither would I describe the two younger tramps as “distinguished looking” (per Craig’s description). I can’t say it’s impossible for someone else, just that it seems improbable to me that Mrs. Aydelotte was looking at the tramp photos. We know there are numerous other references to individuals we have not located in the photo record yet (Dougherty, Braden, Bradley, heavy set, middle-aged man, the subject arrested by Denham, and others). We know these individuals were there, and that all had encouters with police. Is it possible that the FWST newspaper published any of these photos before they were apparently extricated from the photo/film record? This option seems more plausible. Agree with you final sentence. If the FWST has a historical, dated archive of all the photos published in that time frame, we might be able to legitimately parse a group of photos … and some of them just might be very interesting.

Further WC testimony from Howard Brennan: Mr. McCLOY. Then when you got to the officer he took you to a Secret Service man, and then the Secret Service man and you were on the steps of the depository? 
 Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. 
Well, we talked at the car, and then when these two colored guys came down the stairway onto the street, I pointed to them, and identified them as being the two that was in the floor below that floor. And then Mr. Sorrels, I think, had to give some orders to someone in the book store. He walked me up the steps, and I stood on the top landing. 
Mr. McCLOY. When you were standing on those steps, did you see anyone pass you, or anyone that you could recognize as being--as looking somewhat like the man that you had seen in the window with the rifle? 
 Mr. BRENNAN. No, I did not. 
 Mr. DULLES. Did you give any estimate was it a matter of 5 minutes, 6 minutes, 7 minutes? In general, how long did it take you from the time that you left where you were protecting yourself to the time you were on the front steps? What order of magnitude? 10 minutes? 
Mr. BRENNAN. No; it was a shorter time than that. 
I talked to Mr. Sorrels--I believe it was Mr. Sorrels--and the Secret Service men there I don't believe I talked to them more than 3 to 5 minutes. 
 Mr. McCLOY. But you had prior to that time talked to the police officer? 
 Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. 
Mr. McCLOY. You said the police officer said, "Wait a minute." 
 Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. 
 Mr. McCLOY. How long was that? 
 Mr. BRENNAN. That was quick, too. He gave his orders to some one on that side of the building, and then he had taken me to the Secret Service man. In this brief exchange, Brennan reveals some significant information. By telling Mr. Dulles that he was on the front steps in less than 10 minutes, Brennan has reconfirmed a time stamp of 12:40, or slightly earlier for the Allen photo of his interview with Inspector Sawyer. The exchange above also confirms that Brennan has already talked to SS agent Sorrels by approximately 12:40. Remember that the real Forrest Sorrels is still at Parkland Hospital, and will not return to the TSBD until 12:55 when he will enter the building through the rear door on the loading dock. Note also Brennan's distinction between Police Officers and Secret Service. I received another excellent observation in a message from a poster on another forum. Remember the earlier Allen photo showing Brennan and Inspector Sawyer sitting together in the front seat of the Squad car. Below is a crop that shows Sawyer on the steps. The red arrow is pointing to the "Dallas Police Department" patch on Sawyer's left shoulder. Now, if we look at the photo of Amos Euin's in the back of the Police Car ... on the left edge of the photo, note the left shoulder of the man in the front seat. It cannot be Sawyer because the "Dallas Police Department" patch is missing. - We have one photo showing Sawyer and Brennan in the front seat, and Euins not visible in the back seat. - A Youtube video from Tommy that shows Brennan and Euins being placed into a police car, with Euins in the back and Brennan in the front. - A third photo shows Euins in the back seat with a Plain Clothes man who is definitely not Inspector Sawyer sitting in the front seat, near the driver's side. All this photo information supports multiple Sessions involving Brennan in the police car, one with Sawyer, and one with another plain clothes individual. In his WC testimony, Brennan makes multiple references to being interviewed by a Secret Service man he believes is Forrest Sorrels. The left arm of the jacket of the man in the front seat is light colored. Gray perhaps? Roger Craig stated the "SS agent" he talked to was wearing a gray jacket. Perhaps we will find other photographic evidence that will nail this issue down. In the meantime, we might be able to discover film or photos of Brennan standing on the top step of the TSBD sometime just after 12:40 where he claimed he was standing in his WC testimony while waiting for "SSA Sorrels" to emerge from the building.

Earlier posts in this thread have referenced various individuals we should expect to see in the photographic and film record of the front of the TSBD just after the assassination, and the Dallas Police Command Post situated there. Specifically, there are references to photos of arrests and/or individuals being taken into police cars that so far, have not been located. Here are some additional references that help to illuminate this issue. During the Garrison Investigation, Bill Boxley and Bill Turner went to California on a mission to talk to an informant on Edgar Eugene Bradley. They ended up interviewing Carol Aydelotte, who knew Bradley well. The interview contains valuable information on Bradley, and included a section that has relevance to this thread. Below is an excerpt of a memo from Bill Turner to Garrison dated February 16, 1968 http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/T%20Disk/Turner%20William%20Weyand%20Garrison%20File/Item%2013.pdf "... An assortment of photographs was shown to Mrs. AYDELOTTE, including the photograph of the men in front of the School Book Depository apparently under arrest following the assassination. Without hesitation, she pointed to the photograph of the lead man and said, "That's Gene BRADLEY." Combined with Roger Craig's testimony, there are now at least two witnesses placing Edgar Eugene Bradley in front of the TSBD after the Assassination, and at least one witness who viewed a photo of that event (3 if you include Boxley and Turner). A poster on the ReOpenKennedyCase forum has posted a timely link to an excerpt of Howard Brennan's testimony with another interesting reference to the film record in front of the TSBD. Mr. BELIN. All right. Will you put a mark to "G" at the end? And I believe you said that the car that you talked to the Secret Service agent in was at point "G" approximately? Mr. BRENNAN. Right. Mr. BELIN. Now, are these accurate or approximate locations, Mr. Brennan? Mr. BRENNAN. Well, don't you have photographs of me talking to the Secret Service men right here? Mr. BELIN. I don't believe so. Mr. BRENNAN. You should have. It was on television before I got home my wife saw it. Mr. BELIN. On television? Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. Mr. BELIN. At this time we do not have them. Do you remember what station they were on television? Mr. BRENNAN. No. But they had it. And I called I believe Mr. Lish who requested that he cut those films or get them cut of the FBI. I believe you might know about them. Somebody cut those films, because a number of times later the same films were shown, and that part was cut. Mr. BELIN. Who would Mr. Lish be with? Mr. BRENNAN. The FBI. Mr. BELIN. All right. We thank you very much for that information. http://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t388p675-prayer-man-on-the-education-forum Earlier, Thomas Graves asked if Brennan could have mistaken Dallas Police Inspector J. Herbert Sawyer for SS agent Forrest Sorrels. We have to remember that Sawyer was in full Dallas Police Dress uniform including White hat, badges, and rank insignia on his jacket. Sorrels was in plain clothes suit. Brennan's reference to "Mr. Lish" raises serious questions regarding supression of portions of the film that was shown on TV, featuring Secret Service and the Dallas Police interviewing the witness in front of the TSBD. We have film and photos of Brennan talking to Inspector Sawyer, but so far, none of Brennan talking to the Secret Service Agent his wife saw on TV on November 22. Since Brennan remembered Sorrels by name, I believe there is enough here to consider the possibility that Bradley was impersonating Forrest Sorrels before Sorrels arrived at the TSBD, and that was the reason the footage was later cut from the film originally shown on TV.

Richard, Just to make sure we're on the same page here, I'm pretty sure that the "Edgar Eugene Bradley" Roger Craig identified (as being the 40ish, sandy-haired, grey-business-suit wearing, cleft-chinned "Secret Service agent" to whom he gave his account of Oswald getting into the Rambler station wagon) was the Edgar Eugene Bradley whose photos I posted in post #37, above, not the mobbed-up Eugene Hale Brading / Jim Braden who was briefly detained and who was probably the guy who was captured in photographs wearing sunglasses and a dark western-style hat with an ornate hat band, listening to James Tague for example. I'm curious to know if you think that Roger Craig might have been "captured" after the assassination speaking with this mobbed-up Jim Brading / Braden. I realize that Brading / Braden was known to use the last name "Bradley," but still.....? --Tommy I just reread the post [shudder]. Thanks for catching that, Tommy. I tried to make a couple quick posts before I left this morning. Will go back and edit the references in the posts.

Thanks for that one James.

Robert, I found the Hard hat man you referred to in the video. It happens around the 32 minute mark, and I agree it looks like Buddy Walthers is escorting him. In that scene, I cannot tell if he is hand cuffed. Roughly a minute earlier in the film, there is a film sequence that I believe shows the same event, but the cameraman is shooting out a window looking down from one of the upper floors of the TSBD. In that view, the hard hat man is not cuffed. Amos Euins is also walking nearby, suggesting that the Hard hat man may be Brennan.

Individuals we should expect to see in front of the TSBD being escorted by police: Heavy set, Middle-aged man (in police car) Edgar Eugene Bradley, possibly talking to Roger Craig Jim Braden Jack Dougherty Charles Givens ( he does appear in numerous photos, but none so far show him with police) Billy Lovelady ( he also appears in numerous photos, but none so far show him with police)

Tommy, Still looking for the heavy set, middle-aged man put in the police car. My current frame of mind is there are 3 possibilities: Jack Dougherty, Jim Braden, or a still unidentified man. As James Richards pointed out, Roger Craig did identify Bradley as the SS agent. In the photo below, there are three men in front of the steps, in suits, with their backs turned to the camera. People taken to Police cars, or being escorted by police officers received well deserved attention from the crowd of photographers and cameramen. There is photographic evidence showing the 3 tramps, Howard Brennan, Amos Euins, William Shelley, BRW, Danny Arce, Charles Brehm, Larry Florer and others with the police. Conspicuously missing are photos of the heavy set, middle-age man, Jack Dougherty and Braden. Officer Denham also claimed there was an arrest made on the 3rd or 4th floor of the TSBD. That raises the possibility that one of the above was the man referenced by Denham. It is my opinion that all of the above appear, (at least originally appeared) somewhere in the photographic record in front of the TSBD. In The Lost JFK Tapes, between 29 minutes and 33 minutes into the video, there appears a variety of interesting film clips. Many of the individuals named above appear in that segment. I believe most of that film was shot by Cook. I am still wondering where the film shot by Sanderson and Perringer ended up. Edit: Corrected Braden to Bradley as the man ID'd by Craig.

That was a nice find on the Youtube video, Tommy. It puts an exclamation point on the ID of Sawyer and Brennan sitting in the squad car "command post" in front of the TSBD. Sawyer is heard on the Police tape between 12:43 and 12:45 giving a description of the suspect. We also know Sawyer did not get back down from the 4th floor before 12:37-12:38. So the Brennan interview in the Command Post has to happen very close to 12:40. Very near this time frame (12:40), Roger Craig sees his suspect come down the hill and get into the Rambler Station Wagon. Roger Craig: ... he was a white male in his twenties, five nine, five eight, something like that; about 140 to 150; had kind of medium brown sandy hair... you know, it was like it'd been blown... you know, he'd been in the wind or something-- it was all wild-looking; had on blue trousers... David Belin: What shade of blue? Dark blue, medium or light? Roger Craig: No; medium, probably; I'd say medium. And, a light tan shirt, as I remember it. After seeing the Station Wagon drive away on Elm St, Craig goes to the Command Post. But he does not talk to Sawyer. Could the reason be Sawyer is occupied in the squad car interviewing Brennan? Instead, Craig gives his description of the departing suspect to a "Secret Service" Man. Craig's description of this fake agent: "... There was a man standing on the steps of the Book Depository Building and he turned to me and said, "I'm with the Secret Service." This man was about 40 years old, sandy-haired with a distinct cleft in his chin. He was well-dressed in a gray business suit." In addition to Allen and Murray snapping photos of this area, there were several cameramen shooting video. Cook, Sanderson, and the man Todd Vaughn identified as possibly being Peringer were all filming in front of the TSBD at this time. And no doubt, there were others. The odds seem high that some photographer would have captured the encounter between Craig and the "Secret Service" man.

I have thought for some time that Pierce Allman is the man on the Left of the Entrance porch in Willis 8 and Skaggs 12. I think the 1963 picture of Pierce goes a long way to confirming that ID. Look at the number 6 figure in this Crop of Willis 8:

The obvious implication of these "weighted' search algorithms makes it advisable for researchers and casual users alike to scan through several pages of hits if you prefer to see what else is available besides the target sites you are being directed to.

For Robert, Tommy, and general interest, below is a Murray photo from Robin's site with 2 hard-hat men and a light colored station wagon in the intersection of Houston and Elm. The Hard Hat man in the distance with the police officers is likely Brennan. Wish we could see more detail of the driver.

Agree with your general observation, David. This would be more support for the "hard hat" man in the car being Howard Brennan, rather than the hard-hat man Robert Howard observed as possibly being arrested in The Lost JFK Tapes.

Robert, FWIW, this is not a new thread as it was started by Bill Kelley on August 1, 2010. I just "renewed" it today because I noticed in the Weaver photo a car parked where the 1954 Chevrolet is shown parked the wrong way, in front of the DalTex Building, in other photos and film "captures" on this thread and the Oswald Leaving TSBD thread. The "hard hat guy" talking with a policeman in the Murray photo (with the two crying Black women) is being listened to by the two mysterious "Rip Robertson" and "John O'Hare" characters who were earlier photographed standing on the Houston Street sidewalk, watching JFK and Jackie pass by. IMHO, if it really was Robertson and O'Hare, it would make sense that they were listening to (and perhaps "coaching") Howard Brennan. Brennan himself said that right after the assassination he spoke with policeman W. E. Barnett, and that (a few minutes later?) he started speaking with Secret Service man Forrest Sorrels. Is that possible? I thought Sorrels went to Parkland and was photographed leaving it with LBJ and Secret Service man Rufus Youngblood... --Tommy FWIW, Tommy ... Sorrels is on record as not returning to the TSBD (from Parkland) until 12:55, when he entered the building through the rear door on the loading dock ...

Richard, Great catch! The guy is looking down and to his left and I can see the curve of the short bill of his hard hat through the windshield. It looks like another white-hatted policeman is leaning over and talking with them through the open passenger side door. --Tommy Thanks Tommy. I agree there is another white Police hat leaning over next to the passenger side door. Looks like this car may have been part of Sawyer's "command post". His interview with Brennan would time-stamp this photo in the area of 12:40 ( + or - a few moments).

Hi Michael, I agree Weaver took a most interesting shot(s) showing both the 6th floor SE Window, and the TSBD entrance, moments before the Presidential limo made the turn on to Elm St. The Entrance area does show a man in the approximate position of Prayer Man, but as you pointed out, higher resolution might be very valuable. Earlier in this thread, several members discussed some movements on the steps as the Limo approached the turn onto Elm that may have coincided with Prayer Man arriving. I am not sure who has the original Weaver photo. Gary Mack or Robin Unger might have more information. Richard and Michael, I've always wondered if the 1955-1957 Oldsmobile that Howard Brennan claimed to have noticed parked strangely near the TSBD is visible in this photograph. http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/1518/tuul.jpg http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=16323 --Tommy PS Is that another "hard hat man" at the far right of the photo, partially obscured by the motorcycle antenna? It seems to me he appears there in other photos. (Too lazy to look right now...) Tommy, Given the fuzzy resolution, it's difficult to be definitive ... however, I can make out a couple things. There is an older make vehicle in the position Brennan described. It is parallel parked on Houston next to the East side of the TSBD facing South. There is also another vehicle that appears to be close behind the Oldsmobile(?). It is perpendicular to the Olds with the front facing West. If it is back far enough it could be pulling into the lot behind the TSBD. If it is parked, it would be blocking Southbound traffic on Houston. I like Michael's idea of finding the original and getting a high resolution scan.

The article also has a good photo of a young Pierce Allman. Thanks for the link, Mark.

Hi Michael, I agree Weaver took a most interesting shot(s) showing both the 6th floor SE Window, and the TSBD entrance, moments before the Presidential limo made the turn on to Elm St. The Entrance area does show a man in the approximate position of Prayer Man, but as you pointed out, higher resolution might be very valuable. Earlier in this thread, several members discussed some movements on the steps as the Limo approached the turn onto Elm that may have coincided with Prayer Man arriving. I am not sure who has the original Weaver photo. Gary Mack or Robin Unger might have more information.

Below is a William Allen photo showing a crowd by a police car in front of the TSBD. Visible through the reflection of the windshield are a police officer (center seat) and a man who looks like he is wearing a hard-hat (passenger seat). Howard Brennan? The Police Officer looks like he could be Dallas Police Inspector J. Herbert Sawyer.

James, That man bears a strong resemblance to Marlin Perkins of the old "Wild Kingdom" TV show. Perkins would have been 58 years old in 1963. I may have seen him in another photo in Dealey Plaza. Good find. Will add him to the list.

Earlier in this thread, I drew a parallel between the heavy set, middle-aged man arrested, and the description of Jack Dougherty. Sprague claims the Willis 10 photo shows this arrest. The Clint Bradford site (if correct) would place the time of Willis 10 around, or just before, 12:45. I will be adding the scene submitted in James Richard's photo, and discussed by Tommy, as one more item that hopefully appears in The Lost JFK Tapes, (along with the Hard-hat man described by Robert Howard). I thought it might be useful to create a list of persons known to have been arrested or placed in police cars in Dealey Plaza in the aftermath of the shooting, along with supporting evidence: Bonnie Ray Williams - testimony; photo in back seat of police car Danny Arce - testimony; photo in back seat of police car William Shelley - testimony; photo in back seat of police car Billy Lovelady - testimony; Charles Givens - testimony; Jack Dougherty - testimony; Larry Florer - testimony; photos Jim Braden - testimony; 3 Tramps - testimony; photos 3 other un-named tramps from rail yard? - my recollection. Need to verify this Heavy set, Middle aged man - testimony of Darnell, Sprague; Said to be filmed by Sanderson and possibly others Hard-hat man in cuffs - Robert Howard noticed him in The Lost JFK Tapes. Old Gent crossing Elm w Police escort - photo Woman arrested by Roger Craig in Parking Lot behind TSBD - testimony of Craig If anyone else can add to the above ... Edits: added names to list

James, I am not sure I have seen that photo before. Do you know which part of Dealey Plaza the shot was taken at?