Robert Prudhomme

Yes, it does, Chris.

Carcano M91 Production Information Type Bolt-Action Rifle

Technical Specifications

Total length 129 cm

Barrel length 78 cm

Empty weight 3.8 kg

Action Bolt Action

Caliber 6.5x52mm Mannlicher-Carcano

Magazine capacity 6-round en bloc clip

Range 2,000 m

RPM 12 rpm

http://world-war-2.wikia.com/wiki/Carcano_M91

The 6.5x50mm Type "I" was, for all intents of purpose, an M91 Carcano long rifle. Only the magazine, chamber and sights were changed. Some small modifications were made to the stock, as well, which can be seen below.

M91 Carcano

Japanese Type "I"

Interesting find, Chris. However, the M91 6.5mm Carcano long rifle also has a barrel 30.75" long.

Dave

Dale Myers' cartoon shows the bullet basically going through the centre of JFK's neck. Am I missing something here? Was JFK a freak or something, and his spinal column offset to the left side of his body? C'mon now, Dave, we are trying to have a serious discussion here. When do you plan to quit clowning around and start giving us some serious answers?

Sorry about that, Dave. I guess you missed this in all of the posts being made, so I posted it again for you. How did the bullet go through JFK's neck, as depicted by Myers in his cartoon, without hitting any cervical vertebrae?

Hi John

A side wind is definitely something that has to be compensated for once you start shooting at the longer ranges. There are tables available on the Internet that will show you how much drift takes place in a crosswind, given the range you are shooting and the speed of the cross wind.

It is a little known fact that if you sight a rifle in on level ground to be accurate at, let's say for example, 100 yards, and then shoot at a target 100 yards away uphill OR downhill, the bullet will, in both cases, go high of the point of aim.

In basic training in the USMC, Lee Harvey Oswald would have been issued a 30-06 calibre M1 Garand. This was an eight round, semi-automatic, "en bloc" clip fed rifle that was equipped with a type of iron sights known as a "peep sight". There is no evidence to show that Oswald, in basic training or later on, ever received any training in shooting and maintaining a scope mounted rifle.

It is interesting to note the similarities between the 6.5mm Carcano and the M1 Garand. Both used an "en bloc" charger clip, six round for the Carcano and eight round for the Garand. The Carcano clip fell out of the bottom of the magazine when the last round was chambered and the Garand clip was ejected out the top of the magazine when the last round was fired. Neither of these rifles could have a scope mounted directly over the receiver. The bolt of the Carcano would have struck a scope in this position, and the Garand ejected its empty cartridges upwards (like the Winchester Model 94 I spoke of). In some cases, scopes were side mounted on the Garands on the left side of the receiver, and, in others, scopes were mounted ahead of the chamber and directly above the barrel, to overcome the problems I spoke of in my last post. Suffice it to say that shooting with a scope mounted ahead of the chamber would be awkward, at the least.

Also, note the difference between these long range scopes and the pathetic .22 calibre scope mounted on Oswald's alleged rifle.

As the M1 Garand is a very accurate fast shooting weapon and its peep sight makes target re-acquisition very easy following a shot being fired, I have often thought to myself that the Lone Nut story would have been much more believable if the rifle found on the 6th floor had been a Garand. This was, after all, the rifle Oswald had trained with, and its semi-automatic action would have allowed more than three shots to be fired in the time allotted.

Here are a couple of Youtube videos that demonstrate how quickly an M1 Garand can be fired with accuracy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5k8r2OrFEc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xF5CdczuMTA

Dave

Dale Myers' cartoon shows the bullet basically going through the centre of JFK's neck. Am I missing something here? Was JFK a freak or something, and his

spinal column offset to the left side of his body? C'mon now, Dave, we are trying to have a serious discussion here. When do you plan to quit clowning around and start giving us some serious answers?

LOL Chris, you must have really done some digging, in order to come up with the 6.5x50mm Carcano Type "I" made for the Japanese Navy. This was a fairly limited production model that very few people today have even heard of. As the article you linked to states, It was basically the standard Carcano receiver and bolt, mated to a barrel chambered for the Arisaka 6.5x50mm cartridge.

Interestingly, the bullet loaded into this cartridge was almost identical to the Carcano bullet. Both weighed 160-162 grains, both were round nosed and both were virtually identical in length. The main difference was the Arisaka 6.5mm bullet was .264" in diameter, as were most 6.5mm bullets, while the Carcano bullet was .268" in diameter, although there is a great deal of evidence showing the 6.5mm Carcano cartridges made by the Western Cartridge Co. (Oswald's alleged cartridges) were loaded with bullets only .264" in diameter.

While there were small differences, even the brass casings were very similar.

So, Dave, if you're so confident in the evidence, how did the bullet go through JFK's neck, as depicted in Dale Myers' cartoon, without hitting any cervical vertebrae?

Getting old here, Dave.

To better understand the difficulties of sidemounting a scope on a rifle, there are a few more things about rifle scopes you should know. Look carefully at the following two diagrams:

These may look a bit complicated but are really quite simple. When a bullet leaves the muzzle of a rifle, the only force acting on it then is gravity, and it will begin falling to the earth. For this reason, to hit a target at 100 or 200 metres by aiming at it through a scope (or sights), it is necessary to raise the barrel up so the bullet will follow a parabolic curve to the target and impact the target on descent. The amount of elevation depends upon how "flat shooting" the rifle is. A rifle with a high muzzle velocity and a high ballistic coefficient will not require much elevation, while a low velocity round with a bullet possessing a low ballistic coefficient (the 6.5mm Carcano M91/38, for example) requires more elevation.

Quite often, on a hunting rifle, the line of sight will be adjusted until the rifle is able to hit bullseyes at 200 metres. This does not mean the hunter is specifically looking for game at 200 metres, although his rifle is sighted in for that distance. The purpose of this is that his rifle, at 100 metres, will only be shooting an inch or two high at the top of the parabola and this can be easily compensated for, much easier than trying to hit a target at 200 metres with a rifle sighted in for 100 metres. The results can be seen in this chart. Note how quickly the bullet begins to drop.

It should be noted that C2766 was an M91/38 short rifle, and that its rear sight was not adjustable, but fixed at 200 metres (219 yards). If C2766 was a high velocity flat shooting rifle, a bullet impacting the bullseye at 200 metres would only be an inch or so high at 100 metres. However, this was not the case with C2766, and the ballistics calculator we used in another thread shows that a Carcano 6.5mm bullet, with a muzzle velocity of 2165 fps, impacting a bullseye at 200 metres, would be just over 7 inches high at 100 metres. This is a serious consideration for the "Oswald did it all with open sights" advocates.

It is interesting to note, from the first two diagrams, that the bullet path will cross the line of sight just a few metres out from the muzzle, and again at the target. This actually means that a rifle sighted in to be accurate at 200 metres is also accurate at a few metres.

Now, while the trajectory of a rifle seriously affects hitting the height of a target at different ranges, and this was the inspiration for built in rangefinders on hunting scopes, the advantage of mounting a scope (or open sights) directly above the barrel of a rifle is that the left-to-right (windage) of line of sight to bullet impact relationship does not vary with range. In other words, if you aim at bullseyes at 50 metres, 100 metres, 200 metres and 300 metres, you will see a corresponding drop of the impact point of the bullets as you go further out but, unless you are shooting in a crosswind, there will be no variation to left or right on the target.

However, if you mount the scope on the side of the receiver, as on LHO's alleged rifle, you are no longer directly over the barrel. Even though it appears to be too small of a space to make much difference, the line of sight (from the scope) and the line of departure (bullet path) are now beginning from two different points, and the rifle can only be sighted in for windage to be accurate at one range and one range only; namely, the point at which these two lines converge. Any close shot made with this rifle will put the bullet to the right of the aimed at target, and any shot made past the convergent point will put the bullet to the left of the aimed at target.

Years ago, a friend of mine owned a Winchester Model 94 30-30 lever action rifle. It had open sights and was a great deer rifle in brushy ground. For some odd reason, my friend decided one day he just had to have a scope on this rifle, even though he was a deadly shot with open sights. As with the Carcano, it was necessary for the gunsmith to side mount the scope on the 30-30, not because of interference with the action but because this repeating rifle ejected cartridges straight up from the receiver, and they would hit the scope.

The gunsmith "boresighted" the scope after mounting it but, of course, it was still necessary to sight the rifle in at the range as boresighting only "gets you on the paper", as they say. It almost drove us insane trying to sight that rifle in so it would hit bullseyes at 100 metres. Every adjustment we made to elevation or windage seemed to throw us off somewhere else. It didn't help that the Model 94 is a very light rifle and likes to kick, and one is anticipating this with each shot.

During this exercise, I tried a couple of shots with the open sights, and found having the scope right in your face made this an extremely awkward and uncomfortable thing to do. As I said before, those who think the inadequacies of the scope would have prompted LHO to use the open sights during the assassination are as much as saying LHO never practiced at a range with this rifle. If he had, he would have removed the scope long before he brought the rifle to Dealey Plaza.

This thread was begun on another forum and I am transferring the posts to here.

Hello Ian


You bring up a very good point about scopes designed for air guns and low velocity .22 calibre rifles.

The rifle scope mounted on the M91/38 6.5mm Carcano short rifle, allegedly owned by LHO, was an Ordnance Optics 4x18 scope. It was a very inexpensive scope made in Japan and was designed to be mounted on a .22 calibre rifle or an air powered pellet gun. Due to the low velocity of a .22 rifle, it is not a rifle typically used to make 100 metre shots, and target shooting at 25 metres is more in line with its capabilities.

To better understand this scope, it is necessary to define the numbers assigned to it, 4x18. The number 4 tells us that this scope will magnify the size of anything viewed through it four times. The number 18 defines what is known as the "objective lens diameter" and is the diameter of the forward end of the scope that allows light in. The larger the diameter, the more light is allowed to enter the scope and the better defined the target is to the viewer. As stated, this scope was 18 mm in diameter. Scopes designed to shoot 100+ metres usually start at around 32 mm and go as high as 50 mm.

A very important feature of a scope, and the cause of your problems in re-acquiring your target, is a thing known as "field of view". This is usually defined in hunting scopes as the width of the area visible through a scope at 100 metres. Quite simply, some "wide angle" scopes, such as the original Redfield Widefield scopes, made it much simpler to find what you were shooting at by giving you a wider view of what you were trying to look at. I bought a wide angle Bushnell scope for a rifle years ago simply because I could not track a moving deer through brush when viewing it in such a tiny field of view as was seen in the scope I replaced. Now, when you design a scope to shoot .22 calibre rifles at 25 metre targets, field of view no longer becomes a concern for the manufacturer. I remember shooting .22 rifles equipped with similar cheap scopes as a kid, and the field of view was ridiculously small, comparable to trying to find someone in a crowd by looking through a 1/2" tube.

For those who believed Oswald used the open sights on 22/11/63, here is a good question. If Oswald practiced shooting this rifle as much as some claim he did, he would have noticed the inadequacies of the scope re: field of view immediately. Wouldn't it be likely that he would have removed the scope prior to bringing the rifle to the TSBD, if he knew he was going to be using the open sights?

More to come......

Is it established with certainty that Klein's mounted a scope on the rifle alleged to be the murder weapon?

Just a question.

John,

I have a vivid memory of reading that when the FBI ordered a number of "Oswald" rifles with scopes for testing purposes, Klein's called back to ask them "how" they wanted the scopes mounted. They replied, 'the same way you mounted the scope on the "Oswald rifle", of course. Klein's technician responded that although they do mount scopes, they had never mounted one on that type of rifle. As I recall, this fellow did all of Klein's scope mounting, and he was not an actual gunsmith.

Unfortunately, I do not recall where I read this, but it was reported by someone who is well known in the JFK assasination community as a reliable source. If you'd like I can attempt to track down the source.

Tom

Hi Tom

I recall reading the same thing. Unfortunately, it does not make a lot of sense, from the viewpoint of the scope installer at Klein's.

The truth of the matter is this, all models of Carcano rifles, be they long rifles, short rifles, carbines, 6.5mm or 7.35mm, have the identical receivers, bolts and chambers on them, and fire the identical brass cartridge. In the case of the 7.35mm calibre short rifle, the neck of the cartridge is opened up for the wider bullet, and the case length trimmed back by 1 mm but, other than that, it is the same cartridge.

If Klein's had installed scopes on carbines, they would mount in the exact same way on C2766, which was a short rifle.

Hi Robert,

As I replied to Malcolm in an earlier post, I have no idea why they would ask. I couldn't agree with you more that there is only one way to mount the scope. But:

TO RE-QUOTE FROM MY REPLY TO MALCOLM: We don't know precisely what was said to Klein's when they placed the order, but (presuming Klein's actually did ask the Feds) they must have had some reason to request mounting instructions. I don't recall exactly when the scope was described as "mounted for a left-handed shooter," but I believe that was what the FBI inventory stated. If true, then they had thought that, or the Dallas PD did, from pretty much assassination day. Purely speculation on my part, but due to the above, suppose the Feds requested 91-38s with the scopes "mounted for a left-handed shooter?"

This implies something different than the normal mounting, and the Tech may have thought, as I would, how do you mount THIS scope for a left-handed shooter? So he called to confirm what they wanted.

Again, just speculation on my part,

Tom

Did someone get confused over the "left handed shooter"? i.e. The scope on C2766 had a mount that was affixed to the left hand side of the rifle and, as I understand it, the scope itself was offset to the left - did this cause some confusion and someone thought that, due to the way the scope was mounted, it was designed for a left handed shooter whereas, in reality, it was the only way to mount the scope on this type of weapon in order to allow the bolt to be operated properly?

That's the way it seems to be, Ian. This should also cast a little doubt over some of the "experts" who testified to the WC.

Another thing a soldier (marine or otherwise) would not do is leave a live cartridge in the chamber of a rifle. That is one very big taboo not tolerated at all by range masters.

This is why DVP gets in a panic every time I want to discuss the anatomical impossibilities of the Silly Bullet Theory. Knock out that cornerstone, and the whole building comes down.

Tom Neal @ post #57:

The photo of Oswald firing an M-1 -- he would have had to clean this weapon after firing, I believe. And would have had to be able to disassemble and re-assemble the M-1 blindfolded.

In the military, one learns respect for weapons. In Viet Nam, for example, your best friend was your rifle. You took good care of it.

Yet the alleged murder rifle recovered from the TSBD was corroded. Not just worn, but corroded. That means its owner didn't clean it after each firing. Which is what any American soldier, EM or officer, is taught to do.

Hi Jon

This is one of those things where it was obvious the interior of the barrel was corroded, but not obvious exactly when the corrosion took place. C2766 was manufactured in 1940 and likely used for most of the Second World War. Being a soldier's rifle, and spending most of its war life outdoor in the elements, it may not have received the proper care a rifle needs. After the war, Italy completely abandoned the Carcano in favour of the American M1 Garand, so it can be assumed C2766 went into storage. How good that storage was, no one knows. Suffice it to say, though, that C2766 may have suffered the majority of its barrel corrosion prior to 1950. Or, the barrel may not be corroded from rust at all. It may be corroded simply from having been in many battles and having many thousands of rounds fired through it.

Is it established with certainty that Klein's mounted a scope on the rifle alleged to be the murder weapon?

Just a question.

John,

I have a vivid memory of reading that when the FBI ordered a number of "Oswald" rifles with scopes for testing purposes, Klein's called back to ask them "how" they wanted the scopes mounted. They replied, 'the same way you mounted the scope on the "Oswald rifle", of course. Klein's technician responded that although they do mount scopes, they had never mounted one on that type of rifle. As I recall, this fellow did all of Klein's scope mounting, and he was not an actual gunsmith.

Unfortunately, I do not recall where I read this, but it was reported by someone who is well known in the JFK assasination community as a reliable source. If you'd like I can attempt to track down the source.

Tom

Why would the FBI have to tell Klein's where to mount the scope if Klein's normally mounted scopes on these rifles ?

Malcolm,

If you re-read the post, the FBI ordered Carcano 91/38 rifles and they wanted scopes mounted. The tech that mounts scopes for Kleins said they don't mount scopes on that rifle - meaning a 91-38. They do however, mount them on other models, such as the one in the advertisement that the WC decided Oswald had used to place his order.

As Robert says, they could only mount them one way - the same way they did on the OTHER rifles they sell. So why did they ask? We don't know precisely what was said to Klein's when they placed the order, but (presuming Klein's actually did ask the Feds) they must have had some reason to request mounting instructions. I don't recall exactly when the scope was described as "mounted for a left-handed shooter," but I believe that was what the FBI inventory stated. Purely speculation on my part, but suppose the Feds requested 91-38s with the scopes "mounted for a left-handed shooter?"

This implies something different than the normal mounting, and the Tech may have thought, as I would, how do you mount THIS scope for a left-handed shooter? So he called to confirm what they wanted.

Again, just speculation on my part,

Tom

Interesting speculation, Tom, and one that never occurred to me before. As we have seen, the experts at the FBI might not have been as expert as we were told, and someone might have thought the side mounted scope on the Carcano was mounted that way for a left handed shooter.

Imagine the confusion that the Tech at Klein's must have experienced when the FBI put in their request!

And just because the cartoon shows the bullet path spreading before it reaches JFK, that is NOT a bullet path of 9° between JFK and Connally.

And yes, the image on the left does show a 9° bullet path going back to the TSBD, but it certainly did NOT stay 9° in the second image.

Smoke and mirrors, Dave, that's what you and Dale and the rest of the gang specialize in.

Dave, 9° is just not enough for the bullet to pass outside the C7 transverse process, and STILL go through the right side of the trachea. Any medical diagram will show you it would have to be a MINIMUM of 23°.

C'mon, Dave, I thought you would jump at the opportunity to convert me over to the Dark Side of the Force. All you have to do is explain to me how that lil ol' Silly Bullet made it through JFK's neck without hitting any vertebrae.

You seem to have all the answers, this should be an easy one for you.

Now, one more time.

Let's look at the still from Dale Myers' cartoon again:

Does this bullet look like it is travelling a right to left path of 26°? Or even 9°, as measured from the centre line of the limo, or a centre line drawn through JFK from back to front?

How did the Magic Bullet travel through JFK's neck, in the manner portrayed by Dale Myers, without hitting any cervical vertebrae?

How did the Magic Bullet travel through JFK's neck, in the manner portrayed by Dale Myers, without hitting any cervical vertebrae?

It's "Magic", Roberto. What else would you expect from an LNer's bullet? (Geez.)

But you've got TWO Magic Bullets, Bob. Each one enters JFK, fails to exit, and they both disappear. For some silly reason, the "real" killers decided to shoot JFK with two of these things instead of using real guns:

Would you like some good advice, Dave? It's from the Scriptures, and the man who wrote it had someone just like you in mind.

"When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things."

1 Corinthians 13:11

Is it established with certainty that Klein's mounted a scope on the rifle alleged to be the murder weapon?

Just a question.

John,

I have a vivid memory of reading that when the FBI ordered a number of "Oswald" rifles with scopes for testing purposes, Klein's called back to ask them "how" they wanted the scopes mounted. They replied, 'the same way you mounted the scope on the "Oswald rifle", of course. Klein's technician responded that although they do mount scopes, they had never mounted one on that type of rifle. As I recall, this fellow did all of Klein's scope mounting, and he was not an actual gunsmith.

Unfortunately, I do not recall where I read this, but it was reported by someone who is well known in the JFK assasination community as a reliable source. If you'd like I can attempt to track down the source.

Tom

Hi Tom

I recall reading the same thing. Unfortunately, it does not make a lot of sense, from the viewpoint of the scope installer at Klein's.

The truth of the matter is this, all models of Carcano rifles, be they long rifles, short rifles, carbines, 6.5mm or 7.35mm, have the identical receivers, bolts and chambers on them, and fire the identical brass cartridge. In the case of the 7.35mm calibre short rifle, the neck of the cartridge is opened up for the wider bullet, and the case length trimmed back by 1 mm but, other than that, it is the same cartridge.

If Klein's had installed scopes on carbines, they would mount in the exact same way on C2766, which was a short rifle.

David Von Pein

You are still ignoring my question, which does not really surprise me. Ever since the Silly Bullet Theory was first revealed, true believers, such as yourself, have had to ignore basic anatomical realities in order to make the SBT "work".

The autopsy report on JFK, as I interpret it, has the Silly Bullet passing over the top of the right transverse process of thoracic vertebra T1, grazing it on its way by, and passing to the outside of the right tip of the right transverse process of cervical vertebra C7. This bullet then passed through JFK's neck, going through the right side of his trachea (windpipe) before exiting his throat.

As no one at Bethesda observed any abnormalities about JFK's vertebrae in the x-rays taken, it is a fairly simple matter of plotting the bullet's path on a cross sectional diagram of the human neck. If one then draws a line through this cross section from front to back, as a centre line, and measures the angle of the bullet path to this line, it is quite apparent the bullet was travelling at an angle, left to right, of 26°. The sniper's nest on the 6th floor was laterally removed only 9° from the centre line of the limo, so this was a real neat trick, and the reason it is called the Silly Bullet Theory.

Let's look at the still from Dale Myers' cartoon again:

Does this bullet look like it is travelling a right to left path of 26°? Or even 9°?

How did the Magic Bullet travel through JFK's neck, in the manner portrayed by Dale Myers, without hitting any cervical vertebrae?

Wow, what a flood! My embarrassing question for David Von Pein has been buried under a torrent of posts.

No problem, I'll just keep asking it.

David, take another look at this still from Dale Myers' cartoon:

Dale has shown the Magic Bullet entering JFK's back almost centred on the spinal column.

How did the MB go through JFK's neck without hitting any cervical vertebrae?

As I said, I will post medical diagrams to help you, if you wish.