Robert Prudhomme

Hi Tom

Yes, indeed, I do not doubt for a second it was an accurate rifle. It actually is a little difficult to ascertain whether snipers' rifles were 91/30's selected for their superior qualities, or if the snipers' weapons were just 91/30's drilled out for scope mounts and their bolt handles turned down.

You would have had the garden variety of 91/30 then. If the bolt handle had curved downward, it would have been a sniper's rifle. While the scope mount was offset to the left side of the receiver, as it was on C2766, the Mosin Nagant did not have the en bloc clip that had to be loaded straight from the top on the Carcano. On the MN, it was possible to bring the left mounted scope mount back over the top of the receiver. The only thing in the way then was the straight bolt handle that stood vertically on extraction, which they bent downward.

Two better views of the unusual but ingenious scope mount.

"The doctors also discussed a possible deflection of the bullet in the body caused

by striking bone. Consideration was also given to a type of bullet which fragments

completely....Following discussion among the doctors relating to the back injury, I

left the autopsy room to call the FBI Laboratory and spoke with Agent Chuch [sic]

Killion. I asked if he could furnish any information regarding a type of bullet that

would almost completely fragmentize (sic)."

Even if a bullet completely disintegrated into a cloud of metal powder in the top of JFK's right lung, this cloud of metal powder would still show up on an x-ray.

There was no metal powder in the flechettes developed at Ft. Detrick.

Does anyone but me find it odd that the x-ray technician, Jerrol Custer, maintyained to the ARRB that JFK's lungs had been removed before he was able to take chest x-rays of JFK, and that only a handful of personnel were present when they were removed?

Sounds like Sibert got played just like everyone else.

He got played by Killion at the FBI Lab who said the Magic Bullet was coming in from Dallas.

This does not in any way diminish the possibility JFK was struck with blood soluble rounds which wouldn't show up on x-ray.

You are like a broken record, Cliff. If you can produce hard, tangible evidence of even ONE blood soluble bullet or flechette, it would go a long ways to making people believe in them.

"The doctors also discussed a possible deflection of the bullet in the body caused

by striking bone. Consideration was also given to a type of bullet which fragments

completely....Following discussion among the doctors relating to the back injury, I

left the autopsy room to call the FBI Laboratory and spoke with Agent Chuch [sic]

Killion. I asked if he could furnish any information regarding a type of bullet that

would almost completely fragmentize (sic)."

Even if a bullet completely disintegrated into a cloud of metal powder in the top of JFK's right lung, this cloud of metal powder would still show up on an x-ray. Does anyone but me find it odd that the x-ray technician, Jerrol Custer, maintyained to the ARRB that JFK's lungs had been removed before he was able to take chest x-rays of JFK, and that only a handful of personnel were present when they were removed?

Sounds like Sibert got played just like everyone else.

The double triggers, or "match" triggers, were only installed on 91/41's intended for competition shooting. M91/41's intended for frontline troops had only the single trigger.

Do you recall if your Mosin Nagant 91/30 had a bolt handle that stuck straight out to the side, or a handle that curved downwards?

Bob

My favourite photo of Connally. Would you say that someone forgot to tell him exactly when and where the assassination would take place?

Robert - as you are quite obviously an expert in firearms, what is your opinion on whether a MC was the murder weapon?

Hi Paul

Just to confuse things, what model of Carcano? While the M91/38 Carcano short rifle found, supposedly, on the 6th floor, might not have been the most accurate or well made weapon in the world, there are Carcano models that are extremely well built AND accurate. Here is one model that comes to mind:

Pictured above is a 6.5mm Carcano M91/41 long rifle. This particular version was built for competition shooting, as evidenced by the double or "match" triggers. This rifle was so accurate, it was used by Italian teams in international shooting competitions, right into the 1960's.

The M91/41 is a central part of the bizarre history of Second World War Italian infantry rifles. As you may know, the short rifle made its debut in 1938 as the M38, chambering an all new 7.35x51mm cartridge, which was, in fact, not a new cartridge at all. It was actually the old 6.5x52mm cartridge, with 1 mm trimmed off the case length and its cartridge neck opened up to accept the larger diameter bullet. Everything else about the 7.35mm (ie. bolt, receiver) was identical to the old 6.5mm rifles. This rifle was manufactured for a grand total of two years, 1938 and 1939, before production was abandoned and the 6.5x52mm cartridge was brought back. They did retain the short rifle design, and the 6.5mm and the 7.35mm short rifles cannot be told apart without close inspection of stampings. The 6.5mm short rifle, designated the M91/38, had an even shorter production life, and was only manufactured for one year, that year being 1940, although there was a tiny number of them made at one plant in early 1941. This may qualify as the shortest production run of any infantry rifle of the 20th Century, and one has to wonder just what was wrong with the M91/38 short rifles, to justify their relegation to the scrap heap.

So, in 1941, in the middle of a war Italy was losing badly, an all new infantry weapon was introduced to Italian troops, the M91/41 long rifle. It had one very interesting feature that I would have considered, should I have been the one planning the assassination, that it shared with the M91/38 short rifle but with no other Carcano rifle. Up to 1938, Carcano rifles had been made with rifling grooves in their barrels in a style known as "progressive" or "gain" twist. Starting with the M38, and continuing with the M91/38 and M91/41, the riflings were made with a standard twist. The ratio of twist for both the M91/38 and M91/41 was 1:8.47, meaning that a bullet would complete one complete spin in every 8.47 inches of barrel length it travelled through. In the progressive twist models, no other model had exactly the same ratio of twist for its final twist. What this meant was a bullet could be fired from either model of rifle and, if only the rifling impressions on the bullets were examined, you would not be able to tell which model of rifle each bullet had been fired from. Can you see the potential for confusing investigators here?

Robert P. I see what you mean.

It seems I have more work ahead of me.

I would point you to Zapruder frame Z-323 in which we see CONNALLY sitting crouched down facing forward along side NELLIE. If CONNALLY had been wounded prior to this moment and had been able to move from the prone position he was in at Z-313 why didn't NELLIE and CONNALLY include this in their testimony, in stead they both claimed CONNALLY laid on NELLIES lap barely alive and eventually unconscious. You must see that they both intentionally lied, it can be obvious that the lie hid the fact that CONNALLY had not been wounded prior to Z-323. The CONNALLYS were hiding the fact that they reacted to the assassinaiton by laying down and hiding long before anyone heard rifle shots.

Also of interest now that you pointed out how close the jump seats were to the front seats, imagine CONNALLY wedging himself between NELLIE and the back of GREERS seat after Z-325, it would have taken some effort to dislodge NELLIE and force himself into such a confined space, yet this is exactly what we see happening. There is a reason this occurs, the most obvious reason is this is when he is wounded.

I know the pieces do not all fit, yet this is still the closest explanation for all of the phenomenon that has been identified.

The task is to uncover exactly when CONNALLY is wounded and how.

Is there any photographic documentation of CONNALLYs wounds?

Robert P. Thanks for significant contributions, much appreciated.

Hi Bob

Sorry about this, old chap. If it makes you feel any better, I am as merciless with my own theories, which I analyze to the point they either pass or get relegated to the waste heap. I believe it is the only way to finally get to the truth, and not get stuck on unworkable pet theories, as so many JFK researchers do.

Unfortunately, there is no photographic documentation of Connally's wounds that I have been able to find. However, the wounds are documented and described in medical reports and testimonies; much better than JFK wounds were.

I believe Connally's wrist wound to be the true conundrum in all of this, and the weak link in the entire SBT chain. It is also the wound that receives the least attention, outside of Connally's thigh wound, and is the least understood. The proof of this is this still from one of the SBT cartoons.

How many people do you know that would see this cartoon and know the entrance wound was on the back of the wrist, not on the under side as depicted here?

Hi Bob

I have looked very closely at the photos, and I think your number 2 scenario is most likely. The person sitting beside Jackie clearly only has trunk lid behind him, and is sitting almost directly above the rear tire so, unless Connally climbed into the back seat, it almost has to be JFK. In the one frame, you can actually see Jackie's pink dress as she is stretched out toward JFK in an effort to prop him up.

What I find most eerie, though, is that JFK's head seems to be held upright in these photos. As I said, if JFK is not dead at this point, he is most certainly unconscious, and his head should be falling to either side, backwards or forwads.

Could Jackie hold JFK's body upright AND hold his head erect at the same time?

Bob

I have been going over your theory of Connally receiving his wounds from a shot originating from the pergola area, and how Connally leaning forward and twisting to his left would have allowed the bullet to follow the 25° downward angle of his 5th rib, and I have found some serious problems with this theory. In fact, I believe it now to be completely unworkable. Look carefully at this photo:

If Connally tried to lean straight forward, he would not be able to get very far, as the seat ahead of him would get in his way. However, even if he was able to lean far enough forward, you now have two other problems. One, the entry wound site on his back might now be hidden below the top of the door. Two, the 25° downward angle of the 5th rib is now translated into a 25° lateral angle, pointing roughly at the back seat of the limo. This would require this bullet to originate from a position slightly ahead of Connally and, unfortunately, the small window of the divider bar between Connally and Kellerman happens to be in the way.

Now, Connally could lean forward far enough, if he was twisted to his left toward Nellie, but this presents another problem. The 25° lateral angle now gets shifted even further forward, requiring the origin of the bullet to be somewhere ahead of the car. In this scenario, the windshield of the limo is in the way.

It is remotely possible a bullet came through the windshield and inflicted Connally's wounds. Once again, the front seat of the limo appears to be in the way.

Remington Model 8 semi-auto, weapon of choice for many Southern police forces, including the Texas Rangers, since the days of Bonnie and Clyde. It could be special ordered, for police only, with a special 15 round box magazine.

This rifle had the most unusual action on it that was referred to, I believe, as "partial blowback". Wikipedia explains the action very well:

"The Remington Model 8 rifle is long recoil-operated and uses a rotating bolt head. After firing, the barrel and bolt, still locked together, move rearward inside the receiver and compress two recoil springs. Then the bolt is held back while the barrel is returned forward by one of the springs permitting extraction and ejection. Once the barrel is returned, the bolt is returned forward by the second spring; in so doing it picks up a fresh round from the magazine and chambers it. The Remington Model 8 has a fixed 5-shot magazine and bolt hold-open device which engages after the magazine is empty. It is a takedown design, meaning that the barrel and receiver are easily separated with no tools, allowing for a smaller package for transport."

I have seen one of these fired up close, and it is quite interesting to watch the action of what appears to be an inner and outer barrel.

So, beside Time Life and Robert Groden, who had copies of the Zapruder film? How did Geraldo Rivera end up with a copy? Why did he choose 1975 as the time to release it to the public?

Well, when you think about it, Jackie had to sit somewhere when she got back into the car. Could she have pushed JFK into a sitting position, in order to give herself a spot to sit?

Even if this was the case, it is extremely eerie how the person next to her seems to be holding his head upright. If that was JFK, and he was, for all intents of purpose, quite dead, wouldn't the head be over to one side?

Here is something that will make you think:

z445

z456

z460

z461

Jackie is easily recognized in these photos by her pink hat and pink suit. Who is that sitting upright on her right side?

Another way to look at this, Brad, is that the fatal head shot may have occurred at z313, and it was the other shots that were the problem.

Whether the other shots occurred prior to or after the head shot, or a mixture thereof, there is much eyewitness evidence (Brehm, Altgens, Moorman, etc.) suggesting all the shots took place without the limo travelling very much distance. In fact, the distance was so small, there was no way a shooter with a bolt action rifle could get off three shots in that distance.

What if the FBI knew this and, despite the Z film, moved the head shot down to the pergola steps, in order to give a lone shooter enough time to get three shots off?

I know the Z film contradicts this but, what if we were never supposed to have seen the Z film? If none of the public had ever viewed the Z film, would we even be having this discussion now in 2015?

I never was quite clear how it came to be that Geraldo Rivera showed the Z film on TV in 1975. Does anyone know the story behind this, and who in the government authorized it to be shown to the public?

I worked with this one guy when I was logging who was a real trouble maker for the company, and thought he was bulletproof because we belonged to a union. The union did protect him for the longest time (grudgingly, I believe, as his grievances cost the union a lot of money to fight) but, eventually, the logging company grew tired of his antics, and set about to remove him, which they eventually did. Their case was so ironclad, and by the book, the union couldn't do a thing to help him.

Don't get me wrong. I think unions and tenure are great things in many ways, until one guy comes along and abuses his privileges, and ends up destroying things for everyone in the process. We were not sorry to see him go.

John McAdams is a Conspiracy Theorist??

Hi Tommy

I know it may not seem like any of this is doing anything to help find who killed JFK but, I firmly believe that before you can track anyone down, you have to know what kind of critter you are tracking, and the only way to know that is by observing his behaviour, and the signs he has left behind him.

Sound confusing? Try looking at it this way. Years ago, I believed the assassination (the actual shooting) was done by a highly trained squad of snipers performing in perfect synchronization with split second timing. The more time goes by, the more amateurish the whole thing seems. For example, if Robert Mady is correct in his theory, John Connally would have been shot, from the pergola area, with a shot intended for JFK. With that kind of a miss, the guy pulling the trigger was no trained sniper.

The very idea of attempting to take JFK out by shooting at him in a moving car literally screams Amateur!

Once realized that CONNALLY is wounded after the fatal head wound to Our President, all of JBC's and NELLIES testimony become suspect as do their actions during the assassination.

Actions that show pre-knowledge

1) The limo proceeded down Elm Street, as it neared the signal man with the umbrella, NELLIE and CONNALLY simultaneously turn to their right, NELLIE leans back against the limo door clearing an unobstructed space for CONNALLY to lay back into, CONNALLY scoots forward and then turns, the scooting causes his arm to jerk as he lifts off the seat to get into position to turn.

2) CONNALLY lays straight back, on top of NELLIE, unassisted, if NELLIE had not repositioned herself against the limo door, CONNALLY could not have layed back, he would have come into contact with NELLIE's shoulder or body as she would have been sitting straight forward in her seat.

3) CONNALLY initially claimed NELLIE conversed with the President just a moment prior to the sound of gunfire, this conversation was intended to squelch inquiry into why NELLIE had turned in her seat, since no inquiry arose, the timing of the conversation began to move from Elm to Houston to Main, distancing it from the necessity to explain NELLIES actions.

4) NELLIE claimed to know CONNALLY was struck by the second bullet, yet she pays very little attention to him, see looks toward the umbrella man @z-239-254 then the President @z-255-271 and then toward KELLERMAN @z-271-278 then back to the President @z-279-290, she does not take notice of CONNALLY until he is almost on her lap.

Testimony that illustrated complicity in the cover-up

1) NELLIE and CONNALLY claimed to hear the first rifle shot, NELLIE the second, yet no one in Z-film or Altgens #6 react to sound of any gunfire until after Z-313

2) CONNALLY claimed to the world he turned and could see the President was wounded, afterwards he ignored this claim and proclaimed thereafter he did not see the President wounded. Although we can clearly see in the Z-film @Z-264-289, CONNALLY turns and for some time is seen to look directly toward the President and or JACKIE. Of note: CONNALLY claimed to turn and see the President was wounded prior to himself being wounded.

3) NELLIE and CONNALLY claim CONNALLY was stunned by the shot and had to be assisted to lay down, this is not evident in the Z-film, it is clear CONNALLY is fully conscious and lays back of his own volition.

4) NELLIE claimed CONNALLY laid as if dead on her lap, she claimed to look for some perceptible sign of life, yet we see them both spring from the prone position to face forward in a blink of an eye.

5) NELLIE claimed CONNALLY fell to the floor during the trip to the hospital when the limo took a sharp corner, yet we see CONNALLY be driven to the floor while still on Elm street.

6) NELLIE and CONNALLY appear to be the only two witnesses captured in film or photograph that were aware of supposedly the first two gunshots and reacted to them...does this really seem possible?

7) NELLIE sat silent while supposedly two rifle shots had occurred and the President wounded and her husband supposedly severely wounded as well.

Not to mention the famous words from Connally, "My God, they're going to kill us all!"

I've always found that a strange thing to say, considering the circumstances.

Robert P. by leaning forward, then rotating torso to the left, lowers the trajectory while moving it forward.

The stick I am holding lines up with the leg wound the wrist wound and approximately nipple and side wound.

You can see the end of the stick and it's trajectory. I can assure you that when sitting upright and twisted to the left it points back toward the upper floors of the TSBD or DelTex, when I lean forward and slightly rotate my body to the left it points to the monument area.

I see what you are getting at now. Interesting. You solve the 25° downward angle of the 5th rib problem by laying the torso forward, thus placing the 25° angle on the lateral plane, and allowing the transit from right armpit to right nipple to be the 7° angle which, looking at your photo, seems to be workable. And, in this position, the right hand naturally ends up on the left thigh, with the back of the wrist turned up and somewhat in the path of a bullet.

You just might be onto something here. This is the only theory I have ever seen that even comes close to explaining how the wrist was wounded.

Bob

I don't think you quite see the problem here, so I will explain it again.

As Chris pointed out, the difference in altitude between the pergola and limo (at z313) is 10.7 feet, making for a downward trajectory of 7°. Here is the human rib cage again:

The 5th rib runs forward, from the back bone, at a downward angle of roughly 25°, a total mismatch for a bullet with a 7° downward trajectory.

IF you lean Connally forward, the angle of the 5th rib gets steeper. This makes the problem worse, not better.

As I said, the only way to make your theory work is to have Connally turned to his left AND leaning backwards. By leaning back, he would bring the angle of the 5th rib closer to 7°.

However, how far can Connally lean back before his right shoulder is resting on the top of the door, and the entrance wound location, in his right armpit, is obscured from view by the top of the door?

I understand what you are saying, Bob. Yes, he could be twisted to his left far enough to allow a bullet to transit from his right mid axillary line to just medial of his right nipple. It is the downward angle the bullet travelled as it followed his 5th rib for 10 cm. that is the problem, and the reason, I believe, Chris gave you the elevation of the monument vs. the street. Look again at the drawing of the rib cage:

Even with Connally sitting straight up (albeit turned to his left), a bullet originating at the monument is not going to be travelling at a steep enough downward angle to follow the course of the 5th rib. If you lean Connally forward, the problem gets worse, as the angle of the ribs gets steeper.

In order to make your theory work, Connally would have to be turned to his left AND leaned backwards toward the door of the limo. Considering how far back he would have to be leaned, would his armpit still be visible to a shooter on the monument?

Outside of the fact Connally was never seen in this position in the Z film, there is another problem with this scenario, and this same problem plagues the SBT, although none of the WC apologists really care to discuss it.

As I said before, the FBI's SA Robert A. Frazier testified to the WC there was a round 3/8" exit hole in the front of Connally's suit coat indicating, IMO, the bullet was not tumbling when it left Connally's body.

Now, this is where things get interesting. The bullet left Connally's chest and struck the BACK side (dorsal) of his wrist, shattered the radial bone after making a direct hit on it, and then proceeded to pass BETWEEN the radial and ulna bones and exited the under side of his wrist.

Here is the x-ray taken of Connally's right forearm. looking at the under side of the forearm with the right thumb visible at the top right of the photo. The shattered radius bone is clearly visible, with the intact ulna bone parallel to it:

In what position could Connally have possibly been holding his right hand to allow a bullet exiting his chest to strike the back side of his right wrist? Try this yourself by sitting in a chair with your hand in your lap. It is more natural for the under side of your wrist to be facing the chest.

This is likely the most ignored component of the SBT, and yet it alone has the potential to completely debunk the SBT. Here is an example of how the WC apologists deal with this problem. Their solution requires you do not read the WC testimony of Dr. Charles Gregory, who described a bullet entering the back side of Connally's wrist.

The bullet, of course, is shown entering the underside of the wrist, in complete contradiction of Dr. Gregory's testimony.

"Mr. SPECTER - You say that the, wound on the dorsal or back side of the wrist you assume to be the wound of entrance.

What factors, if any, led you to that assumption?
Dr. GREGORY - I assumed it to be a wound of entrance because of the general ragged appearance of the wound, but for other reasons which I can delineate in a lighter description which came to light during the operative procedure and which are also hallmarked to a certain extent by the X-rays.
Mr. SPECTER - Would you proceed to tell us, even though it is out of sequence, what those factors, later. determined to be, were which led you to assume that it was the wound of entrance?
Dr. GREGORY - Yes. Assuming that the wrist wound, which included a shattering fracture of the wrist bone, of the radial bone just above the wrist, was produced by a missile there were found in the vicinity of the wound two things which led me to believe that it passed from the. dorsal or back side to the volar. The first of these----
Mr. SPECTER - When you say volar what do you mean by that?
Dr. GREGORY - The palm side.
Mr. SPECTER - Proceed.
Dr. GREGORY - The first of these was evidence of clothing, bits of thread and cloth, apparently from a dark suit or something of that sort which had been carried into the wound, from the skin into the region of the bone.
The second of these were two or three small fragments of metal which presumably were shed by the missile after their encounter with the firm substance which is bone. "

Bob

If Connally was facing forward, a shot from the side would have hit the outside of his upper arm. If he was turned to the right, as we see him in the Z film, the shot from the side would have hit the front of his chest.

I'm sorry but, no matter how you slice it, Connally was hit by a bullet originating from behind the limo, even if it was not directly behind the limo and was off to Connally's right somewhere. As this does not seem very probable, I tend to think he was turned to the right at the time of impact. However, a rifle fitted with a suppressor could have been anywhere behind the limo, and the suppressor would have completely masked the location of the rifle.

The shot had to come from higher up, as well, unless Connally was laid back at the time of impact. Look at this:

Counting down from the highest rib will indicate the 5th rib. See how steeply the rib angles downward toward the front of the rib cage? According to the medical report, the bullet followed the outside of this rib for 10 cm. before exiting just below and to the left of Connally's right nipple, without damaging the intercostal tissue above and below the rib.

Bob

You never did explain why you wanted to know if the bullet went through Connally's wrist before it struck his chest. The wrist wound is another bizarre matter, and not one well understood by most researchers.