Robert Prudhomme

Hi Chris

The photo from the DMN you speak of, is that the one I posted that was taken 25 years after the assassination?

"Could you name one other thread that exists on this forum that has the ability to COMPLETELY DISMISS the case against LEE OSWALD in the way in which pursuit of the identity of Prayer Man COULD?"

Hi Lee

I'm not requesting that this thread be pinned but, I believe the thread I began, "Who saw Baker enter the TSBD?", has the potential to destroy not only Marion Baker's testimony, but the testimony of Roy Truly and a number of others. If it could be established that Baker never entered the TSBD, or at least not in the manner he testified he did, I believe the biggest cornerstone of the case against Oswald will have been kicked out from under the building.

It's a pity the thread did not generate much interest. I guess, as Mr. Mady stated, thinking about such things hurts the head too much.

I think a lot hinges on whether or not Baker actually even entered the TSBD by the front entrance. The maddening thing about the Couch film is that, just as Baker gets within a few feet of the steps, Couch is distracted and swings his camera back over to Elm St.

We ASSUME Baker then runs up the stairs and is followed by Roy Truly, who magically knows somehow that Baker is looking for a way to the roof, but we don't actually see this happening. However, we are told by the WC this happened and, like so many other facets of this case, the initial brainwashing was done so well, we still cling to their story. Oddly enough, there does not seem to be anyone on the steps who saw this Baker enter the TSB, either.

As I stated in the other thread, Lee, let us by all means get the proper photo analysis done to establish PM's ID PLUS the ID of everyone else on the steps. In the meantime, though, let us keep looking down the rabbit hole, as I believe Richard Nixon was correct when he said the coverup was the greatest hoax of the 20th Century.

Hi Bob

Firstly, can I thank you for raising the importance of Bill Kelly's PM thread and giving it some prominence on here. I think it's vital we finally get some resolution on who PM is.

My question in regards to PM being Joe Molina (or anyone other than Oswald) is, why didn't any of his co-workers identify him? Not one. This complete blank on the part of the employees heading back into the building, who can clearly see PM, is telling. If it was Joe Molina why not say so?

The thing that sticks out to me like a sore thumb about PM is that no-one saw him at all that day. And no-one saw a TSBD employee standing there either. These two facts together indicate to me that we are not even meant to think about going there. And there must be a very good reason for that.

If even one TSBD employee had said "Yeah there was some guy in the corner but he wasn't from the TSBD" then I would say that we would have a more normal set of witnesses to deal with. But no-one.....?

Anyway, I think at this point that the only way to know for certain is to get the films examined. I'd appreciate your views Bob.

Hi Vanessa

It gets even worse than that. Neither Frazier or Molina saw Baker, a motorcycle cop in a white helmet, run up the stairs and enter the TSBD. In fact, the only witness I can find, outside of Lovelady and Shelley (who changed their story every time they told it), who saw anyone with Roy Truly was Eddie Piper, and he said the man could have been an FBI agent.

Do you see how bizarre this whole thing is? No one saw PM, and no one saw Baker. What really happened on the steps that day?

CE 2036 (7/20/64) provides the following information for Joseph Rodriguez Molina:

Sex: Male

Race: White

Age: 40 Years

Born: June 18, 1924, at Dallas, Texas

Height: 5' 71/2"

Weight: 164 pounds

Eyes: Brown

Hair: Brown, graying, balding in front

Build: Stocky

Complexion: Fair

Marks and Scars: Large mole in left eyebrow

Wife: Soledad Molina

Children: Joe Molina, Jr., aged 17; John Molina, aged 10; Linda Molina, aged 14; and adopted daughter Sylvia, aged 14

Education: Crozier Technical High School, Dallas

Military Service: U. S. Navy, 1943-46, NSN 1891658

Residence: 4306 Brown, Dallas, Texas

That cinches it. On the listing I found for Joe R. Molina, Sr., it also listed a Soledad P., who now turns out to be his wife. Odd that his height is listed as 5' 7 1/2", while his weight is only given as 164 lbs. From all accounts, he was rather portly, yet 164 lbs. is not really an excessive weight for a man that tall. I wonder where Fetzer got the idea he was only five feet tall.

By not mentioning they had a pristine bullet? Call me stupid but, that is pretty simple.

By all means, this thread should be pinned, and we should make every effort to not only identify PM, but every other person on the steps of the TSBD. Remember, it is not only the exoneration of Oswald that hangs in the balance. I do not believe there is a statute of limitations in the USA for murder, and there are several people, reputedly on the steps, whom I believed perjured themselves in their testimonies to the Warren Commission, and their presence (or lack of) at the time of the assassination could be enough to bring them into the light.

This comes as a bit of a surprise but, it may very well be that Joe Molina is still alive. This is entirely possible, as my sources tell me that he was 39 at the time of the assassination, which would make him either 91 or 92 today.

While a search of the Dallas White Pages quickly turned up a Joseph R. Molina, Jr., aged 65, further looking revealed a Joe R. Molina, Sr., aged 65+. I know it may be hoping too much to expect these are the people we are looking for but, one never knows.

I tried phoning both numbers, but only got an answering machine. I composed a letter to the younger Molina, which I shall post this afternoon.

Bob

We have discussed this in another post. Connally cannot lean forward far enough, while facing forward, to transfer the 25° downward angle of his back wound onto a lateral plane, without running into the seat ahead of him. If he is twisted to the left and bent forward, the shot is now blocked by the seat ahead of him and the side bar behind the front door.

To say a shallow wound was created by Humes, simply to explain the discovery of a pristine bullet at Parkland, is utterly ridiculous. If I was a conspitator, I would be far more worried about how I was going to explain a 162 grain bullet, with a muzzle velocity of 2200 fps, only penetrating an inch into the flesh of JFK's back, than I would be about matching a bullet to the rifle found on the 6th floor. Obviously, their worries were unfounded, as a great portion of the public have bought the story of the back wound being "shallow", including FBI agents Sibert and O'Neil, who should have known better.

I think the absolute proof of a shooter(s) from the rear is not just Connally's back wound but JFK's back wound, as well. As I pointed out earlier in another thread, there is really no position Connally could have been in to receive his wound from beside the limo, or in front of the limo. The steepness of the bullet path that followed the 5th rib downward, and the right to left traverse across Connally's chest precludes anything but a shot from behind.

Found this on Fetzer's site:

"By Texas standards,Molina is a very short and portly man, perhaps barely five feet tall. His work attire as Credit Manager consisted of a dress shirt and tie. Molina “took up a positionon the top step of the entrance of the TSBD for the purpose of watching the Presidential Motorcade” (CE1381, pg 66). He also testified before the Warren Commission on 4/7/64, and 25 years later was interviewed by the Dallas Morning News on 11/20/88 in observance of the 25th anniversary of the assassination. He has never been interviewed or spoken in public since."

If PM and Frazier are both standing on the top step, as both testified Molina and Frazier testified to being, PM is obviously a foot shorter than Frazier. As Frazier testified to being six feet tall, this would make PM five feet tall; exactly the height Fetzer claims Molina was.

It is not "thin evidence", Bob. It's an educated guess. Like I said in my post where I made the "educated guess", Molina was a "bookkeeper" at the TSBD. A professional. A white collar worker.

Therefore, I cannot believe he would turn up at work wearing a sports shirt. In 1963 he would have been wearing a shirt and tie. No question about it. It was an expectation.

Now, do WE KNOW FOR CERTAIN that he WAS NOT wearing a sports shirt? No.

Do WE KNOW FOR CERTAIN he WAS wearing a shirt and tie? No.

For all WE KNOW he may have been wearing a cocktail dress.

What we do know for certain is there are UNIDENTIFIED people on those steps who appear in Altgens and who are wearing shirts and ties. He was allegedly stood next to Otis Williams, his best work bud, who would have also been wearing a shirt and tie.

However...

COULD Joe Molina be PRAYERMAN. YES.

Is it LIKELY that Joe Molina is Prayerman. NO.

How will we ever know who Prayerman is?

Get 4K scans of the original Darnell, Weigman and Towner films.

Then we'll know.

Lee

In his Warren Commission testimony, Joe Molina states he was standing next to Otis Williams.

"Mr. BALL. Did you go out on the street to see the motorcade?

Mr. MOLINA. Yes. I was standing on the front steps.

Mr. BALL. With whom?

Mr. MOLINA. Right next left of me was Mr. Williams and close to there was Mrs. Sanders.

Mr. BALL. Pauline Sanders.

Mr. MOLINA. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you see Roy Truly?

Mr. MOLINA. Yes; he was standing with Mr. Campbell; they were going out to lunch.

Mr. BALL. They were in front of you were they?

Mr. MOLINA. Yes."

Unfortunately, Otis Williams did not testify to the WC. He did, though, swear a statement on March 19, 1964, which can be found here: http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh22/html/WH_Vol22_0357a.htm

In that statement, he cannot recall who was standing to either side of him but, he does recall standing on the top step.

I both Williams and Molina were standing on the top step, would they be visible in the shadows of the entrance seen in Altgens 6, especially Molina?

LOL Thomas, that is my one weakness. I don't smoke, drink or do drugs, but one whisper of colour in a pan up some remote creek, and I'm a goner.

Yeah, I quit drinking, rolling my own "Bugler gold" cigarettes, and playing Texas Hold 'Em three years ago myself. I've got Medi Cal and Medi Care which I don't want to jeopardize, otherwise I'd seriously consider relocating my camper van to BC. Hitchhiked through there from La Jolla to Homer, Alaska in 1973. I remember the town of Hope, BC, where my ride dropped me off after we'd crossed the US - Canada border. It's too hot for me here in San Diego, and the gold in our local mountains (The Cuyamacas and the Lagunas) is too fine for me. I'd like to find some nuggets if you know what I mean. Got me a drywasher, a cheap Bounty Hunter metal detector (with a special 4" coil), a pan, a mobile "ham" radio, etc.

I'd have to get a connection to a satellite or something so I could still cause trouble on the JFK Assassination Debate forum. LOL

--Tommy

PS I think one reason the Mosin-Nagant 91/30's were so accurate was because they had such long barrels.

1973 was the year I finished high school, left Saskatchewan and came to BC. Those were good days, before internet, satellite TV and cell phones. I was a brakeman on the Canadian Pacific Railroad in the early 70's, riding the locomotives up the Fraser Canyon across the river from the town of Hope.

There is still lots of gold to be found each summer on the rivers in this province, when the waters drop and the gravel bars are exposed. Where I'm living now, though, there is not much in the creeks, but we have an ocean beach some 30 miles long where winter storms build massive waves that deposit lenses of pure black sand on the beaches. These lenses are very rich in gold (one assay worked out to 1.5 ounces per cubic yard) but the gold and black sand will all go through a 100 mesh screen, and much of the gold is smaller than that. Miners have just about gone mad trying to recover these tiny flakes. I'm working on a process right now that uses chlorine bleach, reduced to a pH of about 8.5 and with salt added as a chloride. Not as much fun as panning nuggets, though, but could be very profitable.

Interesting. I just searched online in the Dallas White Pages for Joseph R. Molina. The first thing that popped up was a listing for a Joseph R. Molina, Jr., aged 65. I tried the number just a few minutes ago. No one answered so I left a message.

Joseph Molina was in the service during WW II, which would make him just a bit older than my father, who turned 16 in 1945. As I am now 59, it is perfectly logical for Joe Molina to have a son 65 years old.

I sincerely hope he is able to assist us, and can provide us with a photo of his father from 1963, if he is indeed the son of our Joe Molina.

So, if Connally was shot from behind, and he was facing forward, and the bullet impacted his 5th rib at the right mid axillary line, or extreme outer lateral point of his rib cage, the bullet could not follow the course of his 5th rib around to the front of his chest, to exit just to the left of his right nipple. The bullet, in this scenario, would simply have grazed the 5th rib, and continued on its way.

The only way the bullet could have followed a course from right mid axillary line to an exit just to the left of his right nipple would be if Connally was turned to his right by almost 45°.

As Connally is not turned in this fashion any time close to the time claimed by the WC for the SBT, the SBT is once again proven to be an outrageous lie.

There are certainly two individuals on the steps wearing a shirt and tie, possibly a third. We still do not know who they are. One has to be Shelley who, as a Supervisor, wore a shirt and tie.

Whilst I appreciate everyone's efforts here I'd much sooner see a concerted and active campaign to get scans made of the original film source material.

That's the only way we'll know.

Sorry, Lee, I am of the opinion that it is important to examine all of the evidence. While I believe it important to get scans made of the original film source material, I now also believe it important to get a photo of Joe Molina from 1963, plus all the stats on his height, weight, etc.

Is it possible Joe Molina is still alive? Does he have descendants still in the Dallas area?

I think Joe Molina has been adequately covered throughout this thread by Sean and others in terms of being accounted for (i.e., not PM). Here are some places to check to see if you agree: posts 83, 112, 189, 342, 352 and 659. There are more as well.

One of the problems with a long, detailed thread such as this is that it's easy to forget what has already been covered and established. So sometimes it's easy to ask questions that have previously been answered. You yourself recognized this in Post 1218.

I struggle with this as well.

While many references are made to Molina being ruled out as PM, in the posts you referred to, no reference is given to just HOW Molina was ruled out. Further, Molina is located further down on the steps by one poster. This is indeed strange, as no one seems to have a photo of Molina in 1963, and I would really like to know just how that poster identified Molina.

While it is stated that Molina is one of the people on the steps not remembered by anyone else on the steps, he is not alone here. There are three other people on the steps no one recalls. For that matter, Frazier recalls neither PM or Officer Baker, so I would hardly make being remembered the litmus test for being on the steps that day.

This happens far too often in this case. We focus on one character, and insignificant characters, such as Molina, are ignored. When something does involve this insignificant character, assumptions are made about him to make him fit the theory of the moment, often on the thinnest of evidence, such as "a bookkeeper should wear a tie, so that man must be Molina".

While I have no way of telling if Joe Molina was telling the truth when giving testimony to the WC, I also do not see a reason for Mr. Molina to lie to the WC, and, for that reason, I believe we have to take his testimony seriously. Unfortunately, that testimony places him exactly where we see PM.

Perhaps I missed it during this very long thread but, could someone explain to me just how Joe Molina was eliminated as Prayer Man?

There are certainly two individuals on the steps wearing a shirt and tie, possibly a third. We still do not know who they are. One has to be Shelley who, as a Supervisor, wore a shirt and tie.

Whilst I appreciate everyone's efforts here I'd much sooner see a concerted and active campaign to get scans made of the original film source material.

That's the only way we'll know.

Sorry, Lee, I am of the opinion that it is important to examine all of the evidence. While I believe it important to get scans made of the original film source material, I now also believe it important to get a photo of Joe Molina from 1963, plus all the stats on his height, weight, etc.

Is it possible Joe Molina is still alive? Does he have descendants still in the Dallas area?

Lee

Yes, one would expect Molina to be wearing a shirt and tie, considering his position as a bookkeeper at the TSBD. However, there is no guarantee of this, and his testimony does place him exactly where we see PM.

Paul

I imagine we will spend the next couple of days discussing the difference between "top step" and "landing". I know that, in my part of western Canada, the words "top step" would indicate the part of the steps that connected with the TSBD door, but it is likely different in other parts of the world. It is similar to the discussions we have had about whether it is the "main" or "first" floor.

However, if it happens that Joe Molina was standing one step down from the top, this still does not solve the discrepancy in height between Frazier and PM.

From the Warren Commission testimony of Buell WesleyFrazier:

"Mr. BALL - Then let's see, there was Billy Lovelady and you were there.

Mr. FRAZIER - Right.
Mr. BALL - Anybody else you can remember?
Mr. FRAZIER - There was a lady there, a heavy-set lady who worked upstairs there whose name is Sarah something, I don't know her last name.
Mr. BALL - Were you near the steps?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; I was, I was standing about, I believe, one step down from the top there.
Mr. BALL - One step down from the top of the steps?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; standing there by the rail.
Mr. BALL - By steps we are talking about the steps of the entrance to the Building?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Shown in this picture?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Which is Commission's Exhibit No. 362. Can you come over here and show us about where you were standing?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir. Like I told you this was an entrance right here.
Mr. BALL - Yes, sir.
Mr. FRAZIER - We have a bar rail running about half way up here. This was the first step and I was standing right around there."

So, with Frazier standing one step down from the top, it could place Frazier and PM on the same step, OR it could place PM one step higher, as you indicated, making PM at least one foot shorter than Frazier.

I know the importance of this thread, and its capacity to turn the whole JFK murder case upside down, should PM be proven to be Oswald.

For this reason, I believe it essential to completely eliminate every other possible candidate for PM. In the process of researching this, I have made some startling discoveries, as seen in this photo.

By Buell Wesley Frazier's own testimony, he was about six feet tall but, in this photo, he towers over the man referred to as Prayer Man; a difficult feat if PM is the 5'9" Oswald. PM also appears to be quite a bit chunkier than the slender Oswald. I thought this may have been the result of the type of lens on the camera but, no one else in this photo, especially Frazier, appears to be distorted on the horizontal plane.

The most disturbing thing, though, is the WC testimony from Joe Molina, seen in this photo reputedly taken 25 years after the assassination:

This is the only photo I have found of Joe Molina, and if anyone has a photo taken closer to 1963, please post it.

From the Warren Commission testimony of Joe Molina:

"Mr. BALL. Did you see Mr. Truly go into the building?

Mr. MOLINA. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Where were you when you saw him go into the building?
Mr. MOLINA. I was right in the entrance.
Mr. BALL. Did you see a police officer with him?
Mr. MOLINA. I didn't see a police officer. I don't recall seeing a police officer but I did see him go inside.
Mr. BALL. Did you see a white-helmeted police officer any time there in the entrance?
Mr. MOLINA. Well, of course, there might have been one after they secured the building, you know.
Mr. BALL. No, I mean when Truly went in; did you see Truly actually go into the building?
Mr. MOLINA. I saw him go in.
Mr. BALL. Where were you standing?
Mr. MOLINA. Right at the front door; right at the front door.
Mr. BALL. Outside the front door?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes, outside the front door I was standing; the door was right behind me.
Mr. BALL. Were you standing on the steps?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes, on the uppermost step.
Mr. BALL. You actually saw Truly go
Mr. MOLINA. Yeah.
Mr. BALL. You were still standing there?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes.
Mr. BALL. How long was it after you heard the shots?
Mr. MOLINA. Oh, I would venture to say maybe 20 or 30 seconds afterwards."

I believe there is a distinct possibility that, in our eagerness, we may have seriously misidentified PM, and that a great deal of research effort should be concentrated on Joe Molina at this time.

In case I have not made myself clear enough, there seems to be an awful lot of people who should have seen a helmeted motorcycle cop entering the front of the TSBD and who, for some strange reason, have no memory of seeing him.

Until I see some corroborating evidence, I must assume Baker's story is, in part, fabricated.

The reason I am asking for a photo of Joe Molina is that his testimony to the Warren Commission places him in almost exactly the same position on the TSBD steps as we see Prayer Man in. Here is a longer piece of Joe Molina's WC testimony:

"Mr. BALL. Did you see Mr. Truly go into the building?

Mr. MOLINA. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Where were you when you saw him go into the building?
Mr. MOLINA. I was right in the entrance.
Mr. BALL. Did you see a police officer with him?
Mr. MOLINA. I didn't see a police officer. I don't recall seeing a police officer but I did see him go inside.
Mr. BALL. Did you see a white-helmeted police officer any time there in the entrance?
Mr. MOLINA. Well, of course, there might have been one after they secured the building, you know.
Mr. BALL. No, I mean when Truly went in; did you see Truly actually go into the building?
Mr. MOLINA. I saw him go in.
Mr. BALL. Where were you standing?
Mr. MOLINA. Right at the front door; right at the front door.
Mr. BALL. Outside the front door?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes, outside the front door I was standing; the door was right behind me.
Mr. BALL. Were you standing on the steps?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes, on the uppermost step.
Mr. BALL. You actually saw Truly go
Mr. MOLINA. Yeah.
Mr. BALL. You were still standing there?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes.
Mr. BALL. How long was it after you heard the shots?
Mr. MOLINA. Oh, I would venture to say maybe 20 or 30 seconds afterwards."

I know this is a bit of a downer but, is there any way of establishing, beyond this testimony, where Joe Molina was standing?

Just out of curiosity, what does all of this have to do with Baker entering the TSBD? His testimony regarding confronting Oswald on the 2nd floor is one of the cornerstones of the WCR, and I cannot seem to find any witnesses who saw him going into the TSBD.

Would everyone mind addressing this first?

From the Warren Commission testimony of Bill Shelley:

"Mr. BALL - Did you see Truly, Mr. Truly and an officer go into the building?

Mr. SHELLEY - Yeah, we saw them right at the front of the building while we were on the island.
Mr. BALL - While you were out there before you walked to the railroad yards?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Do you have any idea how long it was from the time you heard those three sounds or three noises until you saw Truly and Baker going into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - It would have to be 3 or 4 minutes I would say because this girl that ran back up there was down near where the car was when the President was hit.
Mr. BALL - She ran back up to the door and you had still remained standing there?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Going to watch the rest of the parade were you?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes."

From the Warren Commission testimony of Billy Lovelady:

"Mr. BALL - You heard the shots. And how long after that was it before Gloria Calvary came up?

Mr. LOVELADY - Oh, approximately 3 minutes, I would say.
Mr. BALL - Three minutes is a long time.
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, it's---I say approximately; I can't say because I don't have a watch; it could.
Mr. BALL - Had people started to run?
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I couldn't say because she came up to us and we was talking to her, wasn't looking that direction at that time, but when we came off the steps--see, that entrance, you have a blind side when you go down the steps.
Mr. BALL - Right after you talked to Gloria, did you leave the steps and go toward the tracks?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes."

"Mr. BALL - By the time you left the steps had Mr. Truly entered the building?

Mr. LOVELADY - As we left the steps I would say we were at least 15. maybe 25. steps away from the building. I looked back and I saw him and the policeman running into the building.
Mr. BALL - How many steps?
Mr. LOVELADY - Twenty, 25.
Mr. BALL - Steps away and you looked back and saw him enter the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes."

Considering Officer Baker had parked his motorcycle 45 feet from the steps of the TSBD, and run toward them immediately after the last shot, and considering that Gloria Calvary was standing down by the Stemmons Freeway sign, and did not come back up to the TSBD steps for several minutes, and considering that, according to their testimonies, neither Shelley or Lovelady left the steps until she arrived at the steps with news of the assassination, just how on earth do you arrive at a "sync point" Chris?

Both men are clearly lying through their teeth.

Greg

Have I missed anything from the eyewitnesses on the TSBD Steps? Is there anyone who testified to seeing Baker run up the steps and enter the TSBD?

Does anyone have a photo of Joe Molina from around the time of the assassination? All I have been able to find is this photo, reputedly taken 25 years after the assassination.