Robert Prudhomme

These figures seem to make sense, Ray. When I build wooden stairs, I usually try to aim for a pitch of 7:10, which is a fairly standard pitch for stairs. As this building would be open to the public, and not everyone finds a 7:10 pitch easy to negotiate, it also makes sense the pitch would be eased out to 7:12. In fact, it could even be part of the building code or public buildings.

As I get older, I've often thought, on mornings when some of my old logging injuries are flaring up, that it might be a good idea to lower the rate of ascent on the next set of steps I build.

Could you explain this a little more, Chris? I'm not sure how this is connected to Molina's testimony.

I see what you mean, Chris, although if I were the manager, I might spin on my heels the same way if a cop went running into the building I managed.

There is a lady running toward the steps who gets there just after Baker (another assumption). Does anyone know who this is?

Know what drives me insane about that film, Chris? We see Baker get close to the bottom of the steps, but we don't actually see Baker run up the steps. Darnell pans away from the steps of the TSBD before this happens. Coincidentally, precisely the same thing occurs in the Malcolm Couch film.

As we can see from Molina's testimony, he was right in the entrance, on the top step, with the door behind him, when Truly entered the TSBD front door; supposedly in the company of Officer Baker. Molina does not see Baker, neither does Frazier, in fact, I deny anyone to find a single witness on the steps who saw Baker.

Why would the witnesses lie about seeing Baker, if they saw him run up the steps? Wouldn't it be to the conspirators benefit to have witnesses corroborating Baker's story about his rapid entrance into the TSBD, as his encounter with Oswald on the 2nd floor is the only thing placing Oswald above the main floor? It makes no sense.

Vanessa, who knows what might have diverted him? Could he have seen something on Houston St.? Did he believe the only way to the roof of the TSBD might be from the back of the building which, incidentally, is precisely where the stairs and elevators are?

We have two films that show Baker ALMOST making it to the stairs, just before the camera operator pans away from Baker and loses him. I'm getting just a little tired of all of the coincidences in this murder case, and I refuse to keep relying on assumption, such as assuming Baker ascends the steps, simply because that is what he states in his testimony.

It is. I also find it very interesting that Molina was right at the door, on the top step, and saw Truly enter the TSBD, but did not see Baker in his white helmet. Neither did Frazier.

Did Baker actually enter the TSBD?

From the Warren Commission testimony of Joe Molina:

"Mr. BALL. You saw the Presidents car pass?

Mr. MOLINA. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Did you see anything after that?
Mr. MOLINA. Well, I heard the shots.
Mr. BALL. Where--what was the source of the sound?
Mr. MOLINA. Sort of like it reverberated, sort of kind of came from the west side; that was the first impression I got. Of course, the first shot was fired then there was an interval between the first and second longer than the second and third.
Mr. BALL. What did you do after that?
Mr. MOLINA. Well, I just stood there, everybody was running and I didn't know what to do actually, because what could I do. I was just shocked.
Mr. BALL. Did anybody say anything?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Yes, this fellow come to me---Mr. Williams said, somebody said, somebody was shooting at the President, somebody, I don't know who it was. There was some shooting, you know, and this fellow said "What can anybody gain

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by that"; he just shook his head and I just stood there and shook my head. I didn't want to .think what was happening, you know, but I wanted to find out so I went down to where the grassy slope is, you know, and I was trying to gather pieces of conversation of the people that had been close by there and somebody said "Well, the President has been shot and I think they shot somebody else", something like that.
Mr. BALL. Did you see Mr. Truly go into the building?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Where were you when you saw him go into the building?
Mr. MOLINA. I was right in the entrance.
Mr. BALL. Did you see a police officer with him?
Mr. MOLINA. I didn't see a police officer. I don't recall seeing a police officer but I did see him go inside.
Mr. BALL. Did you see a white-helmeted police officer any time there in the entrance?
Mr. MOLINA. Well, of course, there might have been one after they secured the building, you know.
Mr. BALL. No, I mean when Truly went in; did you see Truly actually go into the building?
Mr. MOLINA. I saw him go in.
Mr. BALL. Where were you standing?
Mr. MOLINA. Right at the front door; right at the front door.
Mr. BALL. Outside the front door?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes, outside the front door I was standing; the door was right behind me.
Mr. BALL. Were you standing on the steps?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes, on the uppermost step.
Mr. BALL. You actually saw Truly go
Mr. MOLINA. Yeah.
Mr. BALL. You were still standing there?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes.
Mr. BALL. How long was it after you heard the shots?
Mr. MOLINA. Oh, I would venture to say maybe 20 or 30 seconds afterwards."

From the Warren Commission testimony of Joe Molina:

"Mr. MOLINA. Sort of like it reverberated, sort of kind of came from the west side; that was the first impression I got. Of course, the first shot was fired then there was an interval between the first and second longer than the second and third.

Mr. BALL. What did you do after that?
Mr. MOLINA. Well, I just stood there, everybody was running and I didn't know what to do actually, because what could I do. I was just shocked.
Mr. BALL. Did anybody say anything?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Yes, this fellow come to me---Mr. Williams said, somebody said, somebody was shooting at the President, somebody, I don't know who it was. There was some shooting, you know, and this fellow said "What can anybody gain

371

by that"; he just shook his head and I just stood there and shook my head. I didn't want to .think what was happening, you know, but I wanted to find out so I went down to where the grassy slope is, you know, and I was trying to gather pieces of conversation of the people that had been close by there and somebody said "Well, the President has been shot and I think they shot somebody else", something like that.
Mr. BALL. Did you see Mr. Truly go into the building?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Where were you when you saw him go into the building?
Mr. MOLINA. I was right in the entrance.
Mr. BALL. Did you see a police officer with him?
Mr. MOLINA. I didn't see a police officer. I don't recall seeing a police officer but I did see him go inside.
Mr. BALL. Did you see a white-helmeted police officer any time there in the entrance?
Mr. MOLINA. Well, of course, there might have been one after they secured the building, you know.
Mr. BALL. No, I mean when Truly went in; did you see Truly actually go into the building?
Mr. MOLINA. I saw him go in.
Mr. BALL. Where were you standing?
Mr. MOLINA. Right at the front door; right at the front door.
Mr. BALL. Outside the front door?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes, outside the front door I was standing; the door was right behind me.
Mr. BALL. Were you standing on the steps?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes, on the uppermost step.
Mr. BALL. You actually saw Truly go
Mr. MOLINA. Yeah.
Mr. BALL. You were still standing there?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes.
Mr. BALL. How long was it after you heard the shots?
Mr. MOLINA. Oh, I would venture to say maybe 20 or 30 seconds afterwards."

Post 1746? That was only two posts ago, and it was my post.

Another correction, the top step is not that wide. The entrance was renovated years later, and the top step made much wider, but in 1963 the top step was quite narrow.

I would like to add that the photo above, used by Stan Dane, was taken from street level, and PM and Frazier would be quite a bit higher than the person with the camera.

I'm not sure how this perspective would affect our view of the difference in height of the two men. Anyone?

Stan Dane, over at ROKC, just keeps knocking them out of the Park.

For your perusal:

"There's a lot of activity and speculation going on over at ED in the PM thread about heights of different things and what not. Thought I'd join in on the fun.

I just measured my head from top to bottom of my chin and it's almost exactly 11 in. When you consider picture angles, perspectives, other potential distortion vaiables, etc., this looks ballpark reasonable to me. In other words, it supports PM being LHO. Not the other way around."

I've seen this before. Sometimes I wonder just how many rifles were aimed at JFK that day.

A shooter at the SW corner does offer the most plausible explanation for Connally's back wound but, as JFK was facing forward, and shot in the back (I am assuming) while he was behind the Stemmons sign, it is difficult to account for JFK's back wound with only one shooter at the SW corner.

I see what you are saying, Chris. With Connally blocked by JFK, it severely limits the window of opportunity for Connally to be open to a shooter in the SE corner, while a shooter in the SW corner has no such restriction, and far less foliage to contend with. It is a very good point, and strengthens your argument immensely. The only counter to it I can think of is that JFK seemed to slump to his left somewhat after the first shot, and this may have left Connally open.

Going by Connally's testimony, he claims the shot to his back drove him to the floor, and he is seen upright until z313. It may very well be that a shot, following the fatal head shot, barely missed JFK as he fell back to his left, and managed to connect with Connally's back. Of course, both of my scenarios require Connally to be turned to his right by quite a bit, and this narrows the chances of a SE corner shooter existing.

I agree with you, Chris, about there being a distinct possibility Connally's back wound came from the west end of the 6th floor. However, I also still believe it could have come from the east end of the 6th floor, or the Dal-Tex Building, if Connally had been turned to his right when he was hit in the back.

Thomas,

This is very impressive, especially when using Powerpoint rather than Photoshop and/or AfterEffects. Well done!!!

Whoever this person, they clearly have a short sleeve shirt on.

Gimp 2.8 suggests this figure cannot be Oswald, the shirt is far too tidy and appears closed from about the upper chest.

An excellent piece of image adjustment.

James.

Hi James

Yes, I was impressed by this work, too. In the same thread at ROKC, Stan Dane expanded on his work and did a little more on the PM photo, after another poster pointed out that the unusual "white blob", seen at PM's left elbow, could very well be the top of a heat radiator on the other side of the glass from PM, inside the TSBD lobby.

"Looking at the image Colin posted got the wheels to turning in my head. If that white blob by Oswald's left elbow is the top of the heater behind the glass, I thought I might be able to do a rough calculation to determine where the level of the top step is in the PM picture. I modified Fratini's image and using PowerPoint drew lines and determined their length (draw a line in PP and the length/width are given in format properties). I described the methodology I used in the image to come up with what I came up with. It worked really well for (a) ( © and (d). If this is reasonably accurate, it's clear Oswald was probably not standing on the top step, something many believe anyway. (If the point where I have (f) touching the white blob is a little too high, then the level of the top step would be a little lower). Again, this is just a swag.

Ah, the things you do when you can't sleep."

This is from a post at the ROKC, discussing PM's shirt sleeves (or lack of), by an ROKC member by the name of Stan Dane.

"Since we're looking at pictures and trying to figure out what we're seeing, I took the best Darnell image (Sean Murphy Post 647) and tweaked the contrast using GIMP 2.8 up to about 60%, the point where it looked the crispest to my eye.

I recall someone doing some work on determining what time the three tramps were marched through Dealey Plaza. I believe they used the shadows being cast by prominent landmarks in the photos to determine a fairly precise time.

Hi Jon

Here is a floor plan for the 6th floor:

In the lower right is the SE corner, and the window LHO allegedly shot from is designated 33. At the upper left or NW corner are seen the stairs, and to the right and east of the stairs are the east and west elavators, side by side. While it is all open space in the middle, there are many wooden support posts holding the next floor up.

When I was growing up in Saskatchewan, the first vehicle I ever owned, in 1973, was a 1953 International Harvester, or "Cornbinder" as we referred to them. I paid $50 for it, and a year's insurance and registration was another $50. It was quite the truck. It had originally been painted IHC red, but twenty years in the prairie sun had turned it to a strange orange-pink. The thing I liked about it most were the two little windows at the back. They looked so classy, and I think this was the only year IHC did this. Great little truck!

I really would like for someone to make the necessary scans from the movies that are available, and see if we can determine for a certainty whether Prayer Man is Oswald or not. I know it will be expensive, as Gary Mack has pointed out. But it's worth the cost, if it brings us to the truth. Too many things about the assassination are still "debatable" after 51 years. If this one issue could be settled, it might open new doors into determining what other evidence that has been taken for granted might also be examined in a new light, with new technology.

If we solve the crime, we might need to find a new hobby. Basket weaving, anyone?

Here is a link to a very well researched and well written thread on another forum by Colin Crow. It deals with the sixth floor of the TSBD, and the events that occurred there following the assassination.

http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,12165.0.html

Greg Parker

Thanks for passing my message along. I will post the link to Colin's thread.

No, I am not particularly concerned about invoking anyone's wrath. I simply thought it was the polite thing to do to ask permission, just in case Colin was not in favour of seeing his thread linked to here. I thought he was a member here, but did not see his name on the members' list, and did not know what his current thoughts were about the Ed Forum.

The main thing now is to have the original films professionally examined to see if more detail can be uncovered. Identify Prayer Man, if possible, and a lot of things get clarified.

Anyone here see a whole lot of new evidence falling into our laps after 51 years? Stuff still can come out yet, e.g., JFK files, and more things can be looked at, but to me, we pretty much got what we got. Reexamining existing evidence when it may answer big questions seems like a no-brainer.

Things that should be examined more closely, as well, are much of the existing medical evidence and testimony. There are a great many misconceptions and myths, mostly fuelled very subtly by WC supporters, that are stopping many people from being able to see the true nature of Connally's and JFK's wounds and, beyond that, the truth about what occurred during the assassination.

Robert,

Greg has reading privileges and he is still visiting, so I'm sure your request will get through to him.

I appreciate that Greg and others are extremely knowledgeable and could contribute greatly to the thread you are interested in, but for me this is a red line issue from which I will not budge.

I do hope this matter can be resolved, but I cannot and will not allow - those who were until to-day current members of this forum, to treat the present membership and our forum in the manner they have been doing.

I am sorry for those members who wish to see them to contribute and hopefully that will indeed still be able to happen.

James

James

I see. I thought Greg still had posting privileges, evidenced by his reply to your first post.

Greg

If you can read this, could you post a response on your forum, please?

Hi Greg

I tried to send you a PM, but it did not get through. I need a favour from you. Would you contact Colin Crow, a member of your forum, for me and ask him if I could have his permission to post a link here to the new, three part thread ("Bags, Boxes, Bones, etc.) he linked to on your forum?

It is such a well researched thread, I hope he is agreeable to sharing it here.

Bob