Robert Prudhomme

How did the bullet get through JFK without hitting any of his vertebrae?

Thanks for posting that, Bart.

No David, not LHO's identification of a Secret Service agent.

A policeman's.

Bumping this because DVP never addressed my question.

Add it to the list. DVP never answers questions he has no answer to.

Lovelady and Shelly left straight after, officer Baker can be seen running in the foreground.

There may be a slight snap to the left by Shelly just before the sign.

Gifs by Gerda Dunckel.

Lovelady and Shelley left straight after? Not according to their WC testimonies.

From the Warren Commission testimony of Bill Lovelady:

"Mr. BALL - You were standing on which step?

Mr. LOVELADY - It would be your top level.

Mr. BALL - The top step you were standing there?

Mr. LOVELADY - Right.

Mr. BALL - Now, when Gloria came up you were standing near Mr. Shelley?

Mr. LOVELADY - Yeah.

Mr. BALL - You heard the shots. And how long after that was it before Gloria Calvary came up?

Mr. LOVELADY - Oh, approximately 3 minutes, I would say.

Mr. BALL - Three minutes is a long time.

Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, it's---I say approximately; I can't say because I don't have a watch; it could.

Mr. BALL - Had people started to run?

Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I couldn't say because she came up to us and we was talking to her, wasn't looking that direction at that time, but when we came off the steps--see, that entrance, you have a blind side when you go down the steps.

Mr. BALL - Right after you talked to Gloria, did you leave the steps and go toward the tracks?

Mr. LOVELADY - Yes."

From the Warren Commission testimony of Bill Shelley:

"Mr. BALL - Did you see Truly, Mr. Truly and an officer go into the building?

Mr. SHELLEY - Yeah, we saw them right at the front of the building while we were on the island.

Mr. BALL - While you were out there before you walked to the railroad yards?

Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.

Mr. BALL - Do you have any idea how long it was from the time you heard those three sounds or three noises until you saw Truly and Baker going into the building?

Mr. SHELLEY - It would have to be 3 or 4 minutes I would say because this girl that ran back up there was down near where the car was when the President was hit.

Mr. BALL - She ran back up to the door and you had still remained standing there?

Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.

Mr. BALL - Going to watch the rest of the parade were you?

Mr. SHELLEY - Yes."

I could suggest taking the garbage out, too.

Dave

Your entire argument is a waste of time when one considers the fact it is impossible for a bullet to traverse through the neck, from an entrance wound 1.5-2 inches to the right of a spinal mid-line to the right outer portion of the trachea, without running into the right transverse process of cervical vertebra C7.

Even IF the bullet could clear the outer tip of the right transverse process of C7, it would be travelling at a right to left angle of a minimum of 23°.

Two problems with this:

1. This would place the trajectory of the Magic Bullet FAR to the left of Connally's right armpit.

2. Investigators determined the Sniper's Nest on the SE corner of the 6th floor of the TSBD was only 9° laterally removed from a line drawn lengthwise through the limo at roughly z224. How did it travel through JFK's neck at an angle of 23°?

Instead of taking a cheap shot, you could have bumped it to the first page. Mas facil.

It gets wearisome competing with the propaganda campaign after a while.

Congratulations, fellow members, you have posted enough meaningless garbage threads to push the "Oswald Leaving the TSBD?" thread to the second page.

Would you mind posting the HSCA's conclusions showing where, in their report, they stated Oswald was part of a conspiracy to kill JFK?

I recall the HSCA saying that JFK likely died as the result of a conspiracy, but I don't recall them including Oswald in that conspiracy.

"Apologies, I'm confused with that last bit. I thought you meant Baker could have really been heading towards Houston and was going to go past the TSBD steps and not up them."

That is precisely what I meant. Outside of the testimony of Truly, Shelley and Lovelady, there is not a single witness who saw Baker ascend the front steps of the TSBD. There are major problems with the WC testimony of all three of these witnesses.

Shelley and Lovelady testified they were 25 steps down the Elm St. extension when they looked back and saw Truly and Baker ascending the TSBD steps. However, their testimony makes this an impossibility. I'll explain why, if you wish.

Truly's testimony is highly questionable, too. Only one person, Eddie Piper, saw him crossing the main floor of the TSBD in the company of another person. Piper testified to the WC that he thought that person could have been an FBI agent. As FBI agents seldom dress in the uniform of a motorcycle cop, complete with white helmet, I believe Truly's testimony, including the second floor lunch room incident, is a fabrication, as well.

It is very easy to draw a parallel between witnesses on the steps seeing Prayer Man and the same witnesses seeing Baker, and to assume they were threatened into not recalling seeing either man. While this would make perfect sense in the case of PM, what purpose would it serve having witnesses not recall seeing Baker? As the WC's story seems to hinge on the second floor incident, and Baker is the first witness to establish Oswald's presence above the main floor, it would make more sense to have as many witnesses as possible corroborating Baker's grand entrance into the front of the TSBD, even if they had to fabricate a few.

P.S.

Assuming there was an open entrance on the annex, how would that make any difference to this discussion?

The floor plan I posted was, I believe, prepared for the Warren Commission in 1964, and shows the main loading dock at the rear, off Houston St. However, a bit of digging has uncovered there was an annex off of the first floor.

If you count the windows oh the TSBD in the above photo, you'll see there are only six storeys visible, with the annex hiding the main floor.

If he was going to run up the steps, why did he park his motorcycle 45 feet past the steps on the Elm St. extension? Why did he not park right at the steps? Coming off of Houston St., he would have to ride right past the steps to get to where he parked it.

I think there are a lot of people on this forum jumping to a LOT of conclusions.

I have no idea what you mean by that, Steven.

1. But it was not spelling problems that he had when writing the Walker note. From what I have read, it was more problems with sentence structure and improper selection and usage of nouns and verbs. An example of this would be the Monty Python classic "The Life of Brian". Brian is ordered by the Judean People's Front to write "Romans go Home" on a large wall, as a loyalty test. Not knowing Latin very well, Brian ends up writing "The Romans, they go the House". He is caught by Roman guards, is shown the correct phraseology, and ordered by the guards to write it on the wall, 500 times.

LHO was diagnosed with dyslexia long after he was dead? And by none less than a WC doctor? Riggghhht....

2. If the "while in Russia" letter that Greg Parker produced, and the analysis of it, are true and correct, he was able to write in very good Russian only ten months prior to writing the Walker note. We are supposed to believe he lost his ability to write Russian in the space of ten months?

3. And this is significant because.....

4. And this is significant because....

Hi Bob

If we look at this piece of the film (if the link doesn't work it's "Couch Film shows Baker Running to TSBD" on youtube) then we can see Baker runs past the first entrance to the TSBD that is closer to him than the eastern (?) entrance. So he could have gone in that first entrance but went further down the street to the eastern entrance for some reason.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIdbO3S2J6o

Also if we look at comment #72 back on this thread Baker is running in from the left at an angle to the TSBD steps rather than running straight down the street which we might expect if he was heading past the entrance. He crosses the road to get to the footpath.

According to the floor plan for the first floor, there was only one entrance on Elm St.

Hi Don

Okay, I found it. Someone enlarged one of the photos from CE 541, and "MADE ITALY" can just be seen on the top of the base of the barrel.

I've looked at that photo so many times, not realizing all it took was a little enlargement to see the stamping.

That being said, this is an extremely rare thing to see stamped on a Carcano. Rare, too (actually, unheard of) is to see the date, 1940, stamped on the barrel, without the Fascist date stamped immediately after it in Roman numerals, as seen in the example in the inset photo - 1940-XVIII.

Strange how everything on C2766 looks like it was done in white paint. For example, compare the date stamping seen in the inset with the "CAL" on C2766. All other Carcanos are clearly stamped with number and letter punches.

What I wouldn't give to be able to hold and examine C2766.

Robert,

Mark Lane asked for the Carcano placed into the record to be handed to him during his Warren Commission testimony. He pointed out that the words "Made Italy" were clearly stamped on the barrel.

Since no one on the Warren Commission countered him by saying, "Mr. Lane, that is not printed on the barrel," I have to assume he was correct. Here is a transcript of his testimony, where you can read for yourself that he was allowed to examine the rifle:

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/lane_m2.htm

Hi Don

Yes, I have seen this before. It is just recently that it has dawned on me that, of all the 6.5mm Carcanos I have seen, I have yet to see "MADE ITALY" stamped on any of the barrel of these rifles, or anywhere else on these rifles. If it was stamped on C2766, it would be a rare and unique thing yet, when I look at photos of C2766, I can plainly see "CAL 6.5" stamped on the rear sight, but nowhere do I see "MADE ITALY" stamped on the barrel, rear sight OR the receiver.

If Mr. Lane was pulling a fast one on us, it was very effective.

Roger Craig did an interview, in which he is seen telling the interviewer that, with Fritz holding the rifle, Craig was about 8 inches away from the barrel, and read the words "7.65 Mauser" that were stamped on the barrel.

The most likely candidate to be confused with a 6.5mm Carcano is the Model 1891 7.65 Argentine Mauser carbine, seen below:

It has a box magazine similar to the Carcano, and I believe this is how the confusion began.

Unfortunately for Craig, there is nothing stamped on the barrel of this rifle regarding calibre, or anywhere else on this rifle. The only information stamped on this rifle is on the side of the receiver, reading "Mauser Modelo Argentino 1891".

Later models of the 7.65 Argentine Mauser did not have the protruding box magazine. They also did not have "7.65 Arg. Mauser" or even "7.65 Mauser" stamped anywhere on them.

I'm not saying Roger Craig was lying, I'm just saying it would have been impossible to do what he claimed he did.

Don Jeffries said:

"As Mark Lane pointed out, "Made in Italy" was stamped clearly on the barrel of the Carcano allegedly owned by Oswald, which makes three men identifying it as German truly inexplicable."

Please show me where on the barrel the words "Made in Italy" ("MADE ITALY", actually) are stamped on C2766, or any other 6.5mm Carcano rifle, for that matter.

Big LSD party all the SS people were at the night before, Ray.

Hi Robert,

You show three photos, and beneath the third photo is written, “Middle photo is of C2766”. However, the rifle in the “middle photo” bears the marking, “942-XX”. If you have inadvertently posted the wrong photo, could you fix it please?

Thanks

Hi Tom

I see what happened. I actually posted four photos and the last three were in a group. The middle photo was of C2766, but all that made it was a little icon. Here is the photo:

Hi Ian

I have looked at the photos in CE 541 many times, and have not seen the words "MADE ITALY" stamped anywhere on the rifle. Am I missing something?

The 6.5mm Carcano M91/38 short rifle with the serial number C2766 was part of a large group of surplus Carcano rifles sold off by the Italian government. As part of the contract dealing with the dispersal of these rifles, all markings and stampings on these rifles were to be removed, and only two markings were to be allowed; one saying "CAL 6,5" and another saying "MADE ITALY".

There must have been some miscommunication with the gunsmith hired to do this work, a man named Riva, as there do not seem to be any surplus Carcanos in America with the serial numbers, place of manufacture and date of manufacture removed. All of these things can be plainly seen on these rifles, stamped on the base of the barrel.

Something that cannot be seen on C2766, making it quite unique, is a thing called the "Fascist date", stamped alongside of the regular date, in Roman numerals. This peculiar date stamping was ordered by Mussolini to commemorate his March on Rome in October of 1922. If the date of manufacture of a rifle was, for example, between October 1939 and October 1940, an "XVII" (18) was stamped beside 1940, and if made in 1940 but after October, a "XIX" (20) was stamped beside 1940. Here is an example:

Instead of writing the whole date of 1941, it was, sometimes, written as "941" instead. Beside the 941, we see the numeral "XIX", meaning this rifle was made between October 1940 and October 1941. The fixed rear sight gives this rifle away as being an M91/38 carbine.

While C2766 has the date 1940 stamped on its barrel, the Fascist date is absent, making this rifle possibly the only Carcano made after 1922 that does not have the Fascist date on it.

Finally, there is something that is supposed to be on C2766 (and every other surplus Carcano) that I am unable to find. While the "CAL 6,5" is plainly visible, just ahead of the rear sight, in photos of C2766, where is the stamping that says "MADE ITALY"? We know it must be there, for the simple fact the WCR told us it was there. (sarcasm off)

Middle photo is of C2766.

I seem to have a memory of seeing a photo of C2766 showing the "MADE ITALY" stamping,either above or below the "CAL 6,5" stamping, but I am now beginning to think it may have been put there by the suggestion of reading this in the WC evidence. As there seems to be no other Carcano with "MADE ITALY" stamped on it, I am beginning to think the Italians never stamped this on any Carcanos, and if "MADE ITALY" was stamped on C2766, it was done so long after C2766 left Italy, and possibly after 22/11/63.

Can someone find a photo of C2766 showing the "MADE ITALY" stamping on it? And, if you can find that photo, here is another challenge for you; find another Carcano rifle with "MADE ITALY" stamped on it.

See what I mean now, Paul?