Robert Prudhomme

The key to this may be in establishing where PM was standing. Those promoting his short stature being due to perspective maintain he is as far back on the landing as he can be, right up against the glass. The other school of thought has him appearing to be a short man because he is standing on the first step down from the top landing.

As this step is about 7 inches high, this would add about 7 inches to PM's height, plus or minus a bit for perspective, of course.

God, this is frustrating. PM looks so close in these photos, I just want to reach out and grab him by the scruff of the neck and ask him, "Who the h*ll are you??"

Look folks, there is something definitely wrong here. Look at this photo again:

From what I am being told about the gif. of Lovelady and PM, PM looks shorter because he is backed up against the glass of the entrance, and Lovelady is out toward the front edge of the landing. Perspective makes PM appear shorter than he really is, right?

So, if Wesley Frazier is six feet tall, and appears to be close to the glass, too, in the photo above, can perspective make him look almost a foot taller than PM, if PM is Oswald and supposedly 5'9" tall?

Just a few posts back, we were using Frazier's obvious height to identify him in this photo. Funny how quickly things change.

Considering the top step was only three feet wide, there sure seems to have been a lot of people standing up there. So far, we have Joe Molina, Billy Lovelady and Bill Shelley testifying to being on the top step, along with several other people. Then we are able to see in film that PM and Wesley Frazier are standing on the top step, even though Frazier testified to standing one step down from the top step.

How did so many people fit on the narrow top step?

Maybe it's a case of "Top step" vs. "Landing," and different people referring to them in different ways

--Tommy

Then it would be even more crowded, as that step would only be a foot wide.

The other photos of Shelley show him to be quite lean. The man in the tie behind Lovelady looks like he has a paunch and a double chin.

Is it not possible the man in the tie, seen behind Lovelady, could be Molina or Williams?

I tend to think that Otis Williams was on the top step, and further to the east than you have shown him, Robin.

From the WC testimony of Joe Molina:

"Mr. BALL. Did you go out on the street to see the motorcade?

Mr. MOLINA. Yes. I was standing on the front steps.
Mr. BALL. With whom?
Mr. MOLINA. Right next left of me was Mr. Williams and close to there was Mrs. Sanders.
Mr. BALL. Pauline Sanders.
Mr. MOLINA. Yes."

Further on:

"Mr. BALL. Did you see Mr. Truly go into the building?

Mr. MOLINA. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Where were you when you saw him go into the building?
Mr. MOLINA. I was right in the entrance.
Mr. BALL. Did you see a police officer with him?
Mr. MOLINA. I didn't see a police officer. I don't recall seeing a police officer but I did see him go inside.
Mr. BALL. Did you see a white-helmeted police officer any time there in the entrance?
Mr. MOLINA. Well, of course, there might have been one after they secured the building, you know.
Mr. BALL. No, I mean when Truly went in; did you see Truly actually go into the building?
Mr. MOLINA. I saw him go in.
Mr. BALL. Where were you standing?
Mr. MOLINA. Right at the front door; right at the front door.
Mr. BALL. Outside the front door?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes, outside the front door I was standing; the door was right behind me.
Mr. BALL. Were you standing on the steps?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes, on the uppermost step.
Mr. BALL. You actually saw Truly go
Mr. MOLINA. Yeah.
Mr. BALL. You were still standing there?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes.
Mr. BALL. How long was it after you heard the shots?
Mr. MOLINA. Oh, I would venture to say maybe 20 or 30 seconds afterwards."

Yes, you posted as I was typing. Sorry.

If PM is 3ft further back than Lovelady then we still have a perspective issue. I'm sure someone with a mathematics background can explain it better than I can.

If the top step is only 3 feet wide, how can PM be 3 feet further back than Lovelady, without PM being on the other side of the glass door?

Considering the top step was only three feet wide, there sure seems to have been a lot of people standing up there. So far, we have Joe Molina, Billy Lovelady and Bill Shelley testifying to being on the top step, along with several other people. Then we are able to see in film that PM and Wesley Frazier are standing on the top step, even though Frazier testified to standing one step down from the top step.

How did so many people fit on the narrow top step?

But, as I pointed out, PM was not plastered against the glass door. He had his back almost up against the western side of the entrance, and that would rob a great deal of the three feet landing distance.

Can perspective account for the difference in height seen in this still from Wiegman?

I respectfully disagree. Look at this image.

http://www.show-the-house.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/BushJfkBookDepo2.jpg

The door is open and there is space between the door and the middle handrail. This means it MUST be at least 3ft...I'd estimate it to be at least 6 ft based on various photos.

Read Post # 1808.

The entrance in 1963:

Following renovation, with the original location of glass door shown by a red line, some three feet from the breakover:

However, as this still shows, PM was not backed up against the glass door but, rather, appears to be up against the side wall of the entrance:

It's all about perspective.

The view we have of the TSBD steps in both frames is that we are looking upwards at PM and Lovelady. I tend to agree with where Robin Unger places PM (in the back corner against the glass). Since Lovelady is at the FRONT of the top landing (confirmed as he steps down) AND closer to the camera AND due to our perspective of looking upwards at them .......PM appears shorter in the frames but isn't actually shorter.

The TSBD top landing is quite deep as per Robins photo.

Wrong. In 1963, the space between the break over of the top step and the entrance door was extremely narrow. Years later, it was renovated and this landing area made much wider. I will try to find a photo to demonstrate this to you.

Vanessa

You do not understand what I am saying. It is a simple matter of mathematics. Both PM and Lovelady are quite identifiable in this film.

IF they are both on the same step, be it top step or the next one down, the 5'8" Lovelady is taller than PM, and PM cannot be the 5'9" Oswald.

IF PM is a step down from Lovelady, PM has to be 6'2" in order to be seen as one inch shorter than Lovelady, and the 5'9" Oswald is disqualified.

IF PM is a step up from Lovelady, he would have to be 5'1" tall, in order to appear to be one inch shorter than Lovelady, and, once again, the 5'9" tall Oswald is disqualified.

It has nothing to do with testimony.

Thanks for that description Bob. It does sound intriguing that's for sure.

Is PM clearly on the top landing (or step) though? I didn't think he was ever on the top level.

Lovelady testified to standing on the top step. If PM is on the next step down, and Lovelady is 5'8" tall, and the vertical rise of the step is 7", PM would have to be 6'2" tall in order to be seen in the photo as one inch shorter than Lovelady. As Oswald was 5'9" tall, this too would disqualify him from being PM.

If both Lovelady and PM are on the next step down from the top, we are back to Square One, with Lovelady being taller than PM.

I see everyone is steadfastly ignoring the 800 pound gorilla in the room, and merrily chatting about other things.

Not a single comment about Chris Davidson's gif.? No comments about the obvious, that the 5'8" Billy Lovelady is obviously taller than PM, until he steps off of the top step onto a lower step?

I would dearly love for PM to be Oswald, too, but I refuse to ignore the obvious in the process.

Dear Bob,

If "Prayer Man" wasn't Oswald, who do you think he or she might have been?

Respectfully,

--Tommy

Joe Molina, who stood 5'7".

I will describe it to you. It is very short, and from the Wiegman film, and shows PM and Lovelady side by side on the top step of the entrance to the TSBD. At a glance, the 5'8" tall Lovelady can be seen to be taller than PM. We get only a brief view of this, as Lovelady then steps down to the next step.

This obviously presents a problem, as Oswald was 5'9" tall, and should have been seen to be taller than Lovelady, not shorter, if Oswald was indeed PM.

I see everyone is steadfastly ignoring the 800 pound gorilla in the room, and merrily chatting about other things.

Not a single comment about Chris Davidson's gif.? No comments about the obvious, that the 5'8" Billy Lovelady is obviously taller than PM, until he steps off of the top step onto a lower step?

I would dearly love for PM to be Oswald, too, but I refuse to ignore the obvious in the process.

Whoa! Here's a little gem I just discovered, though I don't doubt some of you already knew this.

Billy Lovelady died in January, 1979, during the HSCA hearings, just a month shy of his 42nd birthday. Cause of death is said to be "complications from a heart attack".

Okay, I found the FBI report for Billy Lovelady. It lists his height at the bottom but, damn these old typewriters, it's hard to make out the second number. It does appear, though, that his height was 5'8". I compared the "8" to other numbers on the report, and it does not look like a "6" or a "9" or a "3".

If Oswald was 5'9", there is a problem here, as Lovelady definitely appears to be taller than PM in the Wiegman gif. posted by Chris.

Coincidentally, the top step is precisely where Lovelady said he was in his WC testimony.

"Mr. BALL - Draw an arrow down to that; do it in the dark. You got an arrow in the dark and one in the white pointing toward you. Where were you when the picture was taken?

Mr. LOVELADY - Right there at the entrance of the building standing on the the step, would be here (indicating).
Mr. BALL - You were standing on which step?
Mr. LOVELADY - It would be your top level.
Mr. BALL - The top step you were standing there?
Mr. LOVELADY - Right."

http://www76.zippyshare.com/v/O9VT35mr/file.html

The Weigman gif is a 2frame/4second differential,time lapse.

PM appears to be filming/photographing and then stops.

Lovelady appears to take at least one step down.

chris

Good find, Chris. It appears Lovelady was a couple of inches taller than PM, assuming they were both standing erect. How tall was Lovelady again?

It is entirely possible Connally was shot from the west end of the TSBD 6th floor, but this does not rule out the possibility of him being shot from the east end of the TSBD 6th floor. It would require only two things; JFK slumping to the left, following his first wounding, or falling to the left, following the head shot. This would leave Connally wide open to a shooter in the SE window. The other requirement is that Connally would have to be turned quite far to his right, in order to allow the bullet to exit his chest between his right nipple and the centre of his chest, after following the outside of his 5th rib.

"How many people point to or run to Dal-Tex, the Courthouse, TSBD versus the Grassy Knoll area?"

As you pointed out yourself, there is a great possibility a suppressed rifle was used and, if so, the origin of the shot(s) would have been completely masked. However, I do find it strange that the shot(s) from behind the limo would be suppressed, and not the frontal shot(s), if the intention was to frame a shooter from behind.

I've pointed this out before but, I've always been fascinated by the Altgens photo:

This to me is what I would expect to see if a suppressed high powered rifle had been fired above or behind the heads of a crowd. Note the complete lack of startled faces in the crowd. As startle reactions to 120-150 decibel noises are instantaneous and quite involuntary, this speaks volumes about the first shot(s).

However, the two SS agents standing on the starboard side of the Queen Mary tell quite a different story. They are both turned to look back behind the limo, and I believe something has definitely startled them. It is just possible a shooter, equipped with a suppressed rifle, has fired a shot at JFK over the windshield of the Queen Mary, and it has come very close to the heads of the two standing SS agents. While they would not hear the muzzle blast of the rifle, they would hear a loud "crack" as the bullet broke the sound barrier on its way past them. While it may be somewhat loud to them, it would be a very localized sound that might be heard on the sidewalk, but not immediately registered to the crowd as a rifle shot.

This would also explain why people much further down Elm St. did not hear the first shot. As the bullet stopped when it hit JFK, its sonic "boom" would also end at JFK, meaning people in the limo would hear it but not people down the street. In this way, people hearing three shots at the top of Elm and people hearing three shots further down Elm might not have been hearing all the same shots.

"And as the shots come from the front, why would anyone look back towards the TSBD... they ran to the Grassy Knoll area"

Seriously? You are aware that both JFK and Connally had entrance wounds in their backs, aren't you?

And not a single startled face in the crowd, in a photo taken possibly 3.5 seconds (or longer) after the first shot.