Robert Prudhomme

Bob

The only person in the Couch film I believe can truly be verified is Marion Baker, seen running from his motorcycle to the steps of the TSBD. After hearing the last shot, he revved his motorcycle and covered the approximately 180-200 feet in a matter of a few seconds. He parked his motorcycle 45 feet from the steps, dismounted and ran full out to the steps. In his estimate, this took a mere twenty seconds.

Timing is everything here. According to Shelley and Lovelady, they did not even leave the steps until Gloria Calvary returned to the steps from down below with the news. How can they possibly be that far down the Elm St. extension, unless they left the steps immediately after the last shot?

Have you noticed the two men are not even walking together?

"Mr. BALL - After you heard these noises you said sounded like firecrackers this girl came up and said the President was shot?

Mr. SHELLEY - Yeah.

Mr. BALL - You were still standing there?

Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - There was still some time lapse from the time you heard the noise like a firecracker and she came up?

Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.

Mr. BALL - Then you went out across Elm?

Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, to the divider.

Mr. BALL - Between the two Elm Streets?

Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.

Mr. BALL - The one street dead ends and the other street that goes on down under the viaduct?

Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.

Mr. BALL - Did you run out to the point or walk out?

MMr. SHELLEY - I believe we trotted out there.

Mr. BALL - Did you stay very long?

Mr. SHELLEY - Oh, it wasn't very long.

Mr. BALL - How long?

Mr. SHELLEY - Maybe a minute or two.

Mr. BALL - And that's the place you saw Truly and Baker, you say, going into the building?

Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, uh-huh,

Mr. BALL - Then you went down the Elm Street that dead ends to the first railroad track?

Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.

Mr. BALL - That's about what distance?

Mr. SHELLEY - Approximately 100 yards."

Bob Mady

We don't need circumstantial evidence, we have Shelley's own testimony to tell us it was not him and Lovelady in the Couch film.

If I can translate his above testimony for you, they remained on the steps until Gloria Calvary returned from the pergola area with the news. I really don't think a lady in high heels was able to beat Baker to the steps.

BUT, most importantly, Shelley tells us that after they spoke with Calvary, they ran out to the divider, and STAYED at the divider for a minute or two, and, better yet, it was from this stationary position they viewed Baker and Truly entering the TSBD.

As the two men in the Couch film are walking down the Elm St. extension, and not standing out at the divider for "maybe a minute or two", Shelley disqualifies himself from being one of the men seen walking in the Couch film.

It is interesting to note that Shelley told much the same story in the earlier part of his testimony, but left out the part about remaining on the divider for a minute or two. When one reads the story again, as quoted above, it is clear they were standing on the divider when Baker/Truly entered the TSBD, and not on their way to the rail yard.

FWIW, I think Shelley was lying when he said "Yeah" instead of "Yes" or "Yes, sir."

I also think he was lying when he says "Yes, uh-huh" after being asked if he had seen Baker run into the TSBD while standing on the "divider" between Elm Street and the Elm Street Extension.

He answers all of the other questions with a "Yes" or a "Yes, sir."

That's my "take" on it.

--Tommy

Interesting observation, Thomas.

"Mr. BALL - After you heard these noises you said sounded like firecrackers this girl came up and said the President was shot?

Mr. SHELLEY - Yeah.
Mr. BALL - You were still standing there?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - There was still some time lapse from the time you heard the noise like a firecracker and she came up?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Then you went out across Elm?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, to the divider.
Mr. BALL - Between the two Elm Streets?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - The one street dead ends and the other street that goes on down under the viaduct?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Did you run out to the point or walk out?
MMr. SHELLEY - I believe we trotted out there.
Mr. BALL - Did you stay very long?
Mr. SHELLEY - Oh, it wasn't very long.
Mr. BALL - How long?
Mr. SHELLEY - Maybe a minute or two.
Mr. BALL - And that's the place you saw Truly and Baker, you say, going into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, uh-huh,
Mr. BALL - Then you went down the Elm Street that dead ends to the first railroad track?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - That's about what distance?
Mr. SHELLEY - Approximately 100 yards."

Bob Mady

We don't need circumstantial evidence, we have Shelley's own testimony to tell us it was not him and Lovelady in the Couch film.

If I can translate his above testimony for you, they remained on the steps until Gloria Calvary returned from the pergola area with the news. I really don't think a lady in high heels was able to beat Baker to the steps.

BUT, most importantly, Shelley tells us that after they spoke with Calvary, they ran out to the divider, and STAYED at the divider for a minute or two, and, better yet, it was from this stationary position they viewed Baker and Truly entering the TSBD.

As the two men in the Couch film are walking down the Elm St. extension, and not standing out at the divider for "maybe a minute or two", Shelley disqualifies himself from being one of the men seen walking in the Couch film.

It is interesting to note that Shelley told much the same story in the earlier part of his testimony, but left out the part about remaining on the divider for a minute or two. When one reads the story again, as quoted above, it is clear they were standing on the divider when Baker/Truly entered the TSBD, and not on their way to the rail yard.

"Dismiss SHELLEY and LOVELADY walking to the rail yards -> not a chance. There is significantly more evidence as proof that this was the actions that were taken than what you are proposing. No we can't definitively prove it was SHELLEY and LOVELADY in the Couch film walking down the extension, we can't disprove it either and a massive amount of circumstantial evidence indicates that it is in deed SHELLEY and LOVELADY."

Bob

Would you mind sharing with us this "massive amount of circumstantial evidence" indicating Shelley and Lovelady are seen walking down the Elm St. extension in the Couch film?

P.P.S.

They also lied about making the trip to the rail yard OR Victoria Adams lied about coming down the stairs. Take your pick.

Robert P.,

I can't imagine that Lovelady, a convicted purveyor of stolen military guns and former fugitive, would lie about anything.

LOL

--Tommy

That is possibly what made it easy to make him lie in his testimony.

"You ever been to prison, son? Wellllll, we'd hate like hell for you to end up back there now, wouldn't we."

And anyone who is naive enough to think that Victoria Adams and Sandra Styles were able to "slip by" Baker and Truly on the 2nd floor landing, while they were confronting Oswald, should read this excerpt from Roy Truly's WC testimony:

"Mr. TRULY. I suppose I was up two or three steps before I realized the officer wasn't following me.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. TRULY. I came back to the second floor landing.
Mr. BELIN. What did you see?
Mr. TRULY. I heard some voices, or a voice, coming from the area of the lunchroom, or the inside vestibule, the area of 24.
Mr. BELIN. All right. And I see that there appears to be on the second floor diagram, a room marked lunchroom.
Mr. TRULY. That is right.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do then?
Mr. TRULY. I ran over and looked in this door No. 23.
Mr. BELIN. Through the glass, or was the door open?
Mr. TRULY. I don't know. I think I opened the door. I feel like I did. I don't remember.
Mr. BELIN. It could have been open or it could have been closed, you do not remember?
Mr. TRULY. The chances are it was closed.
Mr. BELIN. You thought you opened it?
Mr. TRULY. I think I opened it. I opened the door back and leaned in this way.
Mr. BELIN. What did you see?
Mr. TRULY. I saw the officer almost directly in the doorway of the lunch-room facing Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. BELIN. And where was Lee Harvey Oswald at the time you saw him?
Mr. TRULY. He was at the front of the lunchroom, not very far inside he was just inside the lunchroom door.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Mr. TRULY. 2 or 3 feet, possibly.
Mr. BELIN. Could you put an "O" where you saw Lee Harvey Oswald?
All right.
You have put an "O" on Exhibit 497.
What did you see or hear the officer say or do?
Mr. TRULY. When I reached there, the officer had his gun pointing at Oswald. The officer turned this way and said, "This man work here?" And I said, "Yes."
Mr. BELIN. And then what happened?
Mr. TRULY. Then we left Lee Harvey Oswald immediately and continued to run up the stairways until we reached the fifth floor.
Mr. BELIN. All right."

So, Baker is just inside the second door, confronting Oswald, and Truly "opened the door back and leaned in this way". One quick question from Baker, a quick response from Truly, and they are gone up the stairs again. A VERY brief encounter.

Truly does not enter the lunch room and let the doors close behind him, he opens the first door and leans in, not going past this doorway. If two young ladies in high heels passed behind him, wouldn't he hear them? If he had the door open, would Styles and Adams not only see Truly in the doorway, but likely Oswald and Baker, too?

The supposed encounter with Oswald was so brief, what are the chances of it occurring at the exact moment Styles and Adams went by?

If you watch the Couch film, it is quite obvious the two figures presumed to be Shelley and Lovelady are not even walking together. In a still photograph, it appears they are together but, once in motion, you can see "Lovelady" catch up to and pass "Shelley" without even glancing at him.

Other than this belief, what other proof is there Shelley and Lovelady didn't go straight back into the TSBD by the front entrance, following the assassination?

And, regardless of whether or not you believe they did go to the rail yard, the encounter with Gloria Calvary is a fabrication both of them tell, that simply could not have happened.

In order for them to have been in position to look back and see Baker/Truly enter the TSBD, they simply could not have waited the 3 or 4 minutes it took her to come back to the front entrance, and by that time Baker was well on his way to the 5th floor.

If you cannot comprehend the timing of these events, and the glaring faults in much of the testimony, you will never comprehend the massive hoax perpetrated here.

P.P.S.

They also lied about making the trip to the rail yard OR Victoria Adams lied about coming down the stairs. Take your pick.

Ok, in that case, what happened? Were Lovelady and Shelley coerced into lying before the Warren Commission, or is their testimony severely altered?

P.S.

It has never been proven that Lovelady and Shelley are in the Couch film. They likely went back inside the building, just as it says in Lovelady's statement. In fact, they HAD to re-enter the TSBD almost immediately, in order to be at the NW corner of the 1st floor, in order to be seen by Victoria Adams coming down four flights of stairs, unless she is lying, too.

The only way for Baker to be telling the truth about making it to the 2nd floor landing in just over a minute from the time of the last shot, is for Adams and Styles to have come down the stairs SO fast, they were out the back door before Baker and Truly got to the elevator. HOWEVER, this once again requires Shelley and Lovelady to re-enter the front door of the TSBD IMMEDIATELY after the shots, as she testified to seeing both men by the elevators, just as she left the building by the loading dock door.

Any way you slice it, someone or several someones are lying through their teeth.

Robert

Baker and Shelley testified to remaining on the steps for 3-4 minutes, and not leaving the steps until Gloria Calvary returned to the steps from down below at the pergola area. There are photographs placing her down near the pergola some time after the assassination.

Can you get that through your head? This is SHELLEY'S and LOVELADY'S testimony, NOT CALVARY'S. THEY are the ones who testified they did not leave the steps until Calvary came back.

Now, according to time trials conducted by Baker and the WC lawyers, it took Baker 20 seconds to run his motorcycle up to the TSBD and run up to the steps. Three minutes minus twenty seconds is two minutes and forty seconds. According to testimony, he would have been going up the back stairs with Truly before Shelley and Lovelady left the front entrance of the TSBD.

If you do not see a slight timing problem here, you are lost.

In short, we have no way of establishing precisely when the front of the TSBD was sealed off.

Shelley and Lovelady corroborate each other's testimony in two ways. Both testified to remaining on the steps for a minimum of three minutes, following the shots. Both also testified to not leaving the steps before Gloria Calvary returned from the area behind the Stemmons Freeway sign with the news of the assassination.

If both men had only given an estimate of time, I could put it down to the excitement of the event. However, both testified to their leaving the steps being tied to a precise event, the return to the steps of Gloria Calvary. We know from photographs that Ms. Calvary witnessed the assassination from a position mere feet away from the Stemmons sign. We also know, from photographs, that she did not immediately return to the TSBD steps, but lingered, with several other women, in the area of the Stemmons sign for several minutes.

Now, we also know, from the Couch film, that Marion Baker had parked his motorcycle, 45 feet from the TSBD entrance, and run to the TSBD steps within seconds of the last shot.

As there is NO way Gloria Calvary could beat Baker to the steps, and as Shelley and Lovelady testified to remaining on the steps a minimum of three minutes, until Ms. Calvary's arrival, how can that possibly be Shelley and Lovelady seen walking down the Elm St. extension in the Couch film?

It may appear to be Lovelady in the Couch film, but his ID is about as well established as a number of other individuals on the TSBD steps.

Want to know what I think? I think Shelley and Lovelady never went anywhere, except right back inside the building. In Shelley's statement of 22/11/63, he states he ran across the street and spoke to Gloria Calvary. No mention is made of how long after the shots he did this but, as we know Ms. Calvary was delayed down by the pergola, it would have to be several minutes. Shelley stated he then went back into the TSBD and phoned his wife. Billy Lovelady's statement says he went straight back into the building after the assassination.

No trip to the rail yard for these men. Hard thing to forget, wouldn't you say?

Shelley is lying in his statement. He could not have spent enough time outside for Gloria Calvary to return from the pergola, as Victoria Adams testified to seeing him and Billy Lovelady in the NW corner of the 1st floor, just as she and Sandra Styles made it down from upstairs. In other words, Shelley came right back into the building with Lovelady. He had to, or the timing simply does NOT work. As Ms. Adams testified, she and her friend came down the stairs immediately after the shots.

Now, think real hard on this next one. Victoria Adams simply could not make it across the entire 4th floor and down four flights of stairs before Baker and Truly made it to the NW corner of the 1st floor, where the elevators and stairs were. Yet, Ms. Adams never saw a white helmeted motorcycle cop by the stairs as she emerged onto the 1st floor. Neither did Frazier or Molina, who would have been right in Baker's way on the steps. The only witnesses who saw Baker and Truly enter together were Shelley, Lovelady and Eddie Piper. Shelley and Lovelady are proven liars, so I do not believe their sighting. Piper testified that Truly might have been with an FBI agent, so I give no credence to his testimony. Also, he testified to being inside the TSBD at the time of the shooting, yet Molina's original statement places him on the steps, again calling Piper's testimony into question.

Other than that, who saw Baker enter the front of the TSBD? As far as I can tell, no one.

You want to de-construct lies? You haven't even started looking yet.

Bob

I'm very interested in the whereabouts of Lovelady following the assassination. I not only find it interesting he managed to make it outside for a smoke, considering the building may have been locked down, I also think his presence outside the TSBD, at this time, may seriously contradict his WC testimony.

Do you think you can actually nail down the time the front entrance of the TSBD was sealed, and provide witness testimony?

As always, Mark, you are a shining light of common sense in a sea of discord.

Interesting. It seems Barnett and Baker might have passed each other on the Elm St. extension.

It is all a bit odd. It may be that the agent writing the report confused Commerce and Elm, as one street is basically a mirror of the other, and further shows his confusion by accidentally calling Molina Truly. As the agent is describing what appears to be a series of events performed by Molina, suddenly saying Truly remained on the 1st floor looks very out of place.

"Do you think Baker can be seen running towards the front steps of the TSBD in Darnell / Couch (going from memory here) ?

Or is that a different motorcycle policeman?"

If not Baker, then it is some other policeman, but the timing is correct, as we see the motorcade go from a stop to rolling again immediately after Baker runs toward the stairs.

Baker was supposed to be a slightly heavy set man, and I've always felt the running cop in the Couch film looked just a little too lean, but that could just be the perspective of the film.

Thomas

Two excellent questions (the last two), and if I had the answers to them, I would likely be a wealthy man.

I am somewhat baffled by the WC testimonies of witnesses who were standing on the steps of the TSBD. On one hand, it is glaringly evident many of them told vastly different stories to the WC than what was said in their early statements. Naturally, we assume they were coerced into these stories by the perpetrators of the coverup.

And then we get to Baker entering the TSBD with Truly, and suddenly the only witnesses who can recall seeing Truly and Baker going up the front steps are Lovelady and Shelley. And they claim to have witnessed this from a place, according to the time lines in their testimonies, it was impossible for them to be in.

If we were the conspirators of the coverup, wouldn't we have coached Frazier, Molina and several others on the steps to testify to seeing a white helmeted motorcycle cop go past them on the steps? Yet they saw no cop.

Something is desperately wrong with everything we are told happened on those steps that day. I believe the answer is in the statements and testimonies, and it is just a matter of piecing it all together.

Told you so.

And then he said goodbye, but we knew he'd be back. His kind always comes back.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/271806075770

Lee,

If you cannot see the evidentiary problems, there is no need to speak further. I cannot help you. So no need to carry on with me.

JEEZUS.

WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS MAN? THE SAME THING OVER AND OVER AGAIN.

CAN SOMETHING BE DONE TO PREVENT THIS?

About the only thing I could recommend is gouging one's eyes out, making it impossible to read Mr. Savastano's posts, but that is rather a drastic step, and somewhat irreversible, or so I am told.

Hi Lee

I've been going through the links in your post again, and am picking up details I missed before. Starting with the first

http://texashistory....1/?q=joe molina

I see it states that Molina claimed he was out on the steps, viewing the motorcade, with a number of people, including Eddie Piper. Is this an FBI report? Once again, we have a report written in the 3rd person, and potentially unverified, but that may work in our favour this time.

As Piper testified to being inside the TSBD, on the 1st floor, at the time of the assassination, this report is in direct contradiction to that report, and means that either Mr. Piper told an untruth to the WC, in order to bolster the Baker/ Truly story, or the author of this report told the untruth, for reasons I cannot seem to fathom.

It may very well turn out to be the truth is in this report, and Piper was out front on the steps.

Unless someone comes up with something I haven't seen yet, I am almost convinced Marion Baker did NOT enter the TSBD by the front entrance, and that not only was the 2nd storey confrontation with Oswald concocted, the entire Baker/Truly ascent to the 7th floor might have been concocted, or at least the version of it we are presented.

Hi Chris

The photo from the DMN you speak of, is that the one I posted that was taken 25 years after the assassination?

That's the one I was referencing.

Pity, I thought you'd found another photo of Mr. Molina.

Classic overkill included in original questioning of Joe Molina:

"On November 22, 1963 Mr. Molina got to work about 7:00 am. He went to his office on the Second Floor. He stayed there until around 11:45 am. HE DID NOT SEE OSWALD. He ate his lunch in the coffee room on the third floor and then went outside and stood on the first step of the Commerce Street entrance. This was about 12:15 pm. He states that heard three shots; he did not know where they came from. Mr. Molina then went down the embankment toward Commerce Street, saw officers closing the gate to the parking lot to the west of the School Book Depository building. Mr. Truly then went back into the building and stayed on the first floor. HE STILL DID NOT SEE OSWALD. Mr. Molina states he was on the steps with Mr. Shelly [sic], Mrs. Stanton, Mr. Reed, Mr. Sanders and EDDIE PIPER."

Why was it necessary to get Molina to reiterate that "HE STILL DID NOT SEE OSWALD" after talking about Mr. Truly going back in the building?

From memory didn't they get Truly himself to say the same thing? That he "STILL DID NOT SEE OSWALD" when he went back inside the front doors?

http://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth190275/m1/1/sizes/m/?q=joe%20molina

Hi Lee

Are you as suspicious as I am of these FBI "reports", written in the 3rd person and God only knows if the subject signed or even saw these reports? I sincerely hope these are not admissible as evidence in an American court room, as I'm sure our judges in Canada would not take a second look at them, and would tell the investigators to get a proper signed statement from the witness.