Robert Prudhomme

I have an idea. Why don't we treat pinning a thread like warranty on a car, 200,000 views or 1,600 replies, which ever comes first, and the thread automatically gets pinned. That would weed out the majority of the nonsense from being pinned.

Abnormal? I'll give you abnormal.

Thanks, Mark. I see the coffee area marked on the counter, over toward the NW corner of the main floor.

Anyone know of a witness beside Eddie Piper who was on the main floor, and saw Baker and Truly enter the TSBD and go up the stairs?

Hi Bob

Apologies about the link. The interview is on Greg Parker's 'Reopen Kennedy Case' forum. I'll follow up with them about the link and let you know.

Can I ask, do you find it significant that HSCA clearly knows about Prayerman but doesn't follow up on identifying him?

Tremendously significant, Vanessa.

A good point you make, Mark. And thanks for correcting the title.

It's a shame we can't give this thread more prominence but, as you say, everyone would then want their "important" thread pinned, too.

It must have been close to the front of the building, if Piper could still see the people running around, following the third shot. Of course, he does say that he heard the third shot before he got to the counter.

Another question, did any witness beside Piper see Baker and Truly go up the stairs in the NW corner of the TSBD?

Excerpt from the Warren Commission testimony of Eddie Piper:

"Mr. Piper. I heard one shot, and then the next shot went off the one that shot him and I got on up and went on back, back where they make coffee at the end of the counter where I could see what happened and before I could get there, the third shot went off, and I seen the people all running and in a few minutes someone came in the building, and I looked up and it was the bossman and a policeman or something."

Does anyone, familiar with the first floor layout, know where this counter is that Eddie Piper speaks of?

Bob

Baker and Truly getting to the 2nd floor lunch room and confronting Oswald is one of the cornerstones of the WC's case.

Don't you find it a bit odd that Buell Frazier never saw Baker going into the front entrance of the TSBD, and that Shelley and Lovelady testified to seeing Baker from a position it was, according to their testimony, impossible for them to be at? Even if they had not added the 3-4 minute wait on the steps and the conversation with Gloria Calvary to their story when they went to testify, could they have been that far down the street when Baker ran by them?

In fact, according to Billy Lovelady's affidavit from 22/11/63, he didn't go down the Elm St. extension at all.

"There was a slight pause after the first shot and then the next two was right close together. I could not tell where the shots came from but sounded like they were across the street from us. However, that could have been caused by the echo. After it was over we went back into the building and I took some police officers up to search the building."

Oops, I just realized I called it Sean Murphy's thread, when, in fact, the thread was started by Bill Kelly. Can someone change the title for me please?

I think we all can agree that Bill Kelly's thread "Oswald Leaving TSBD?" is one of the most provocative and evocative threads to appear on this forum in years, whether or not we all agree on what is presented. Yet, this thread had managed to slip away into obscurity, and would have been forgotten, if not recently brought back into the light of day.

I know this has been suggested before but I will do it again. Is it possible for this thread to be pinned, and forever hold a place of recognition on the first page?

If it is a matter of consensus, let me cast the first "Yea".

"YEA"

Does Gloria Calvary look like she is on a dead run for the steps of the TSBD, and about to beat Baker there, or is she standing around with the other ladies, down by the pergola, trying to figure out what just happened?

Ms. Calvary must beat Baker to the steps of the TSBD, in order to tell Shelley and Lovelady the President has been shot, and to allow them to be 25 steps away from the TSBD when Truly and Baker run into the building.

"Mr. BALL - You heard the shots. And how long after that was it before Gloria Calvary came up?

Mr. LOVELADY - Oh, approximately 3 minutes, I would say.
Mr. BALL - Three minutes is a long time.
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, it's---I say approximately; I can't say because I don't have a watch; it could.
Mr. BALL - Had people started to run?
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I couldn't say because she came up to us and we was talking to her, wasn't looking that direction at that time, but when we came off the steps--see, that entrance, you have a blind side when you go down the steps.
Mr. BALL - Right after you talked to Gloria, did you leave the steps and go toward the tracks?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Did you run or walk?
Mr. LOVELADY - Medium trotting or fast walk.
Mr. BALL - A fast walk?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - How did you happen to turn around and see Truly and the policeman go into the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - Somebody hollered and I looked.
Mr. BALL - You turned around and looked?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes."

Mr. BALL - Do you have any idea how long it was from the time you heard those three sounds or three noises until you saw Truly and Baker going into the building?

Mr. SHELLEY - It would have to be 3 or 4 minutes I would say because this girl that ran back up there was down near where the car was when the President was hit.

Mr. BALL - She ran back up to the door and you had still remained standing there?

Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.

Robert : Really?

Maybe it could be intentional that the testimony is so confusing?

Maybe the intention of the WC was to confound not clarify so anyone wanting to investigate would not be provided with clear unambiguous experiences to analyze. IMO the WC preferentially retained conflicts and created as many more as they could.

I do not see anything confusing about the testimony at all. Both Shelley and Lovelady testified to remaining on the steps for 3-4 minutes, and not leaving those steps until Gloria Calvary returned from the pergola area. As there is photographic evidence of Ms. Calvary lingering on the grassy area in front of the pergola, following the shooting, do you think it possible she beat Baker to the steps?

Thomas

Not a lot, really.

Bob

Here is a link to a page containing all the witness affidavits, statements and WC testimonies.

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/wit.htm

In their WC testimonies, both Shelley and Lovelady state they remained on the steps of the TSBD for 3-4 minutes following the shots, and, in fact, did not leave the steps of the TSBD until a lady named Gloria Calvary returned to the steps and informed them the President had been shot.

Gloria Calvary had been just a few feet up from the Stemmons Freeway sign at the time of the assassination, and remained in this area, almost in a state of shock by the photographs of her there, for some time before she returned to the entrance of the TSBD.

By their own testimony, that cannot be those two men walking down the street, as they would have still been on the steps when Baker reached the TSBD.

P.S.

And that is just the tip of the iceberg.

If that is Shelley and Lovelady walking down the Elm St. extension, and that is indeed Marion Baker running past them into the TSBD, Shelley and Lovelady have told outrageous lies in their WC testimony.

Well, that is possible but, I believe Frazier was well coached prior to his giving testimony to the WC, as were Shelley and Lovelady. Could Frazier not have testified to seeing Baker enter the TSBD, and left out the part about the chit chat Baker had with Oswald? Testifying that he did not see Baker puts him at odds with the official story, and at this point in time, the perpetrators of the cover up were looking for all of the corroboration they could get.

I know everyone is going to tell me it is a minor point, and not something we should concern ourselves with. It still nags at me though, the same way as Shelley and Lovelady claiming to be 25 steps down Elm St. and looking back and seeing Baker and Truly entering the TSBD nags at me. How could they possibly have gotten that far, when Baker claimed he raced his motorcycle to the TSBD at the sound of the first shot?

No, my senses tell me we have been had here, and had in a way that few of us possess the ability to imagine

It is interesting how we often focus on the big picture, and often ignore or gloss over some of the smaller details, yet it is often these smaller details that open the door to solving the mystery.

While I understand how easy it would be to terrify Buell Wesley Frazier into not remembering seeing Prayer Man standing beside him on the steps, and why certain parties would want his memory to lapse on this matter, there is something else he testified to not seeing on the top of the steps. It has always bothered me, as his lack of recall on this could not possibly aid the perpetrators of the cover up; at least not in any way I can conceive.

Although Frazier was standing in front of the door to the TSBD, and likely almost got run down by him, he had no recollection of seeing a helmeted motorcycle cop run by him into the TSBD.

"Mr. BALL - But you stood right there, did you?

Mr. FRAZIER - Right. Stood right where I was.
Mr. BALL - And Mr. Shelley was still standing there?
Mr. FRAZIER - Right.
Mr. BALL - And also Billy Lovelady?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - The three of you didn't go any place?
Mr. FRAZIER - I believe Billy and them walked down toward that direction but I didn't. I just stood where I was. I hadn't moved at all.
Mr. BALL - Did you see anybody after that come into the Building while you were there?
Mr. FRAZIER - You mean somebody other that didn't work there?
Mr. BALL - A police officer.
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I stood there a few minutes, you know, and some people who worked there; you know normally started to go back into the Building because a lot of us didn't eat our lunch, and so we stared back into the Building and it wasn't but just a few minutes that there were a lot of police officers and so forth all over the Building there.
Mr. BALL - Then you went back into the Building, did you?
Mr. FRAZIER - Right.
Mr. BALL - And before you went back into the Building no police officer came up the steps and into the building?
Mr. FRAZIER - Not that I know. They could walk by the way and I was standing there talking to somebody else and didn't see it."

Sorry, I just do not believe him. But why lie about Officer Baker entering the TSBD? There is film evidence of Baker running into the TSBD within seconds of the last shot, and Frazier testified he "stood there a few minutes".

And yet, Special Agent Robert A. Frazier of the FBI measured the diameter of an unfired Western Cartridge Company 6.5mm Carcano bullet and found it to be 6.65 mm in diameter. Converted to inches, 6.65 mm equals .2618".

This is exactly the sort of thing that needs to stand out in a section on actual JFK Research and not get hidden in other threads...IMHO

Yup, but there it was on Page 3 and sinking fast LOL

No probs at all Bob.

Really? If you don't mind me asking what sort of stuff was blocked? I didn't think they blocked anything.

Hi Vanessa

Most of my comments that never got past the moderators were rather personal digs I was making at "Dr." Photon. I think Jeff's aim is to keep things polite and cordial, and to attack the argument, and not the man. Probably not a bad idea but I often give in to the temptation to be nasty.

Thanks Bob. Not as civilised as JFKFacts I take it?

Ohhhh, sorry for not recognizing your name right away. NOW I know who you are.

No, Jeff is definitely a little more restrictive about what gets posted over there. You should see some of my comments that are still "awaiting moderation".

LOL Thomas, that is my one weakness. I don't smoke, drink or do drugs, but one whisper of colour in a pan up some remote creek, and I'm a goner.

Hi Vanessa, welcome to the Funny Farm.

Perhaps,

A clear picture, perhaps an original picture, perhaps a witness statement? How about some expert assessment? Perhaps any sort of verifiable evidence would help. Just a suggestion. No need for insults and off topic commentary if you have that.

Greg,

There is no lack of evidence, there are witness reports and they do not contain what you contend. Additionally, Oswald himself stated in the video I showed you and other's from Len Oceanic's series that he was feasibly in the building during the shots. By the way add no clear picture that can be discerned to verify Oswald on the stairs, no authentication, no expert appraisal. So why believe?

Greg, I am here to stay, don' t worry about that. I'm just not going to silently endure claims that have no substantial evidence.

Carmine, when asked, you said in the first quote that you would accept witness statements as "verifiable evidence".

You say in the second quote that we already have witness statements. You can't have it both ways. What you were, in effect, requesting in that first quote was witness statements as to the IDENTITY of PM.

What you say in your second statement is that we already have witness statements and none say who PM is. That would be great -- except none mentioned anything at all about the person in the PM position.

So you send us back to square one. Those witness statements don't help me, as you quite rightly hint at. But you are absolutely mistaken if you believe they help you. They don't. Absence of evidence (in this case, absence of any mention of the person in the corner) is not the same thing as your catch-cry of "contending evidence". Not sure why you're not getting that.

Hey Greg

There is one witness who came very close to telling us all who Prayer Man was, but a certain WC lawyer cut him off just as he was about to upset the apple cart:

"Mr. BALL - You ate your lunch on the steps?

Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - Who was with you?

Mr. LOVELADY - Bill Shelley and Sarah Stanton, and right behind me

Mr. BALL - What was that last name?

Mr. LOVELADY - Stanton.

Mr. BALL - What is the first name?

Mr. LOVELADY - Bill Shelley.

Mr. BALL - And Stanton's first name?

Mr. LOVELADY - Miss Sarah Stanton.

Mr. BALL - Did you stay on the steps

Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.

Mr. BALL - Were you there when the President's motorcade went by

Mr. LOVELADY - Right."

I think Mr. Ball knew exactly who PM was, and old Billy forgot his lines.