Robert Prudhomme

Pamela

The really sad thing is that while McAdams is on a paid holiday, and banned from campus, he'll have even MORE time to spread his poisoned lies on the Internet.

James

I believe Robert is suggesting a compressed gas weapon being fired from the vicinity of the Grassy Knoll, hence, my questioning of the ability of such a subsonic weapon to make this shot.

Jon

Perhaps I should not have said "point blank". However, I would not have tried this shot, from the Grassy Knoll, with a .22 rimfire rifle, and a .22 is far superior in velocity and accuracy than any CO2 pellet gun.

Everyone

I hate to keep harping but, the reason the two SS agents are seen looking behind them in Altgens 6 is that they have just received a haircut from a suppressed supersonic bullet going past their skulls. Their obvious reaction is what makes me believe the first shot came from the roof of the laundry van on Houston and Elm. If this shooter had waited any longer, JFK would have been obscured by SS agents. The reason Rosemary Willis and her father heard this bullet breaking the sound barrier, and Mary Woodward and Charles Brehm did not, is that the first two were beside the path of this bullet heading for JFK, while the latter two were well ahead of the path of the bullet. The "crack" of a suppressed supersonic bullet is a very localized sound, and this is precisely why suppressors are employed on high powered rifles; in order to spread confusion.

The strange thing is that Brehm, who would be facing directly toward a shooter on the SE corner of the 6th floor, does not hear the first shot until JFK is very close to him, and no evidence can be found showing him to have hearing problems. Mary Woodward, seen across Elm St. with two friends, immediately to the left of the man in the hard hat, claims the first shot occurred AFTER JFK had passed her, and was about 100 feet further down Elm St.

Yet, if we are to believe the WC, this photo, taken at the same time as Z255, shows JFK reacting to a bullet wound from a shot that occurred further up Elm St. than even Woodward's position. What gives?

P.S.

The man who took this photo, James Altgens, claims the first shot he heard occurred at the very moment he snapped this picture.

Unfortunately, compressed gas weapons are limited to subsonic velocities, well below the speed of sound, and would be very inaccurate at any range beyond almost point blank.

Hi Robert

Concerning your post # 112 I believe, up to this point, I have misunderstood what you have been saying. As I understand you now, you are saying that z313 is the first shot actually HEARD in Dealey Plaza, but not necessarily the first shot actually FIRED in Dealey Plaza?

If so, I can go along with that theory. I have long maintained that the Altgens 6 photo, which corresponds to z255 of the Zapruder film, depicts what is, to me anyways, an impossible scene. There is just no way a short barreled rifle of that calibre could have been fired a few seconds before this photo was taken, and there could be absolutely no startle reactions visible in the onlookers' faces.

The place where I believe we will disagree is that you believe a poison dart struck his throat pre-z200, while I believe a suppressed rifle shot struck him in the back; likely fired from the top of the laundry van parked at Elm and Houston, or from a lower floor of the Dal-Tex Building. While you believe the SS agents in Altgens 6 are scanning the crowd, I believe the two agents on the starboard side of the Queen Mary have just had a suppressed bullet pass very close to their heads, breaking the sound barrier on its way by, and are looking around in bewilderment, attempting to understand what has happened, and its source.

James

With all due respect, I have shown the FBI report concerning Mary Woodward to several people, and not a single person came to any other conclusion than that Mary meant the limo was 100 feet PAST her, not 100 feet toward Houston St. I really cannot comprehend how such a clearly worded report can be interpreted any other way.

Woodward's words would seem to be corroborated by the FBI report concerning Charles Brehm, who was standing on the opposite side of Elm St. and further down the street from Woodward's position (only a few feet away from Jean Hill and Mary Moorman).

From Charles Brehm's FBI report:

"When the President's automobile was very close to him and he could see the President's face very well, the President was seated, but was leaning forward when he stiffened perceptibly at the same instant what appeared to be a rifle shot sounded."

"BREHM expressed his opinion that between the first and third shots, the President's car only seemed to move 10 or 12 feet. It seemed to him that the automobile almost came to a halt after the first shot, but of this he is not certain."

Interestingly, Brehm was a combat veteran of WW II, and would have had a great deal of experience with the sound of rifle shots.

Hello James

I am having a little difficulty understanding how you have interpreted Mary Woodward saying that the limo had not reached her position at the time of the 1st shot, and was still 100' up the street from her.

From CE 2084, FBI interview with Mary Woodward, December 7, 1963:

"Just as the President and Mrs. Kennedy went by, they turned and waved at them. Just a second or two later, she heard a loud noise. At this point, it appeared to her that President and Mrs. Kennedy probably were about one hundred feet from her."

So, the President goes by, turning and waving at Woodward. A second or two later, she hears a shot. "At this point" (I'm assuming she is referring to the shot a couple of seconds after they pass her) she estimates JFK to be 100' away from her.

Am I missing something here, James?

James

It is not so much Mary Woodward's estimate of "a few seconds" that bothers me, it is her estimate of JFK being a hundred feet from her position when she heard the first shot. Where would the limo be if it was a hundred feet from its position at z197?

Mary Woodward, along with two of her friends, can be seen at the extreme left of the Altgens 6 photo. I believe she is the 3rd woman to the left of the man in the hard hat. The problem I find with Altgens 6 is that everything seems to be compressed. For instance, people that appear to be directly in front of the TSBD steps can be seen, in the Croft photo, to actually be much further down the sidewalk. It would be interesting to know precisely where JFK and the limo are at the time of the Altgens photo.

As we have no way of knowing how quickly JFK raised his arms to the level of his throat, he may have done this a fraction of a second before Altgens snapped his photo, as Altgens testified he took this photo almost simultaneously with the sound of the first shot he heard.

Looking at the Altgens 6 photo, and taking into consideration the amount of compression Altgens' telephoto lens has lent to this photo, do you think JFK is one hundred feet away from Mary Woodward at this point?

P.S. I am unable to cut & paste on this forum, but if you could post the Croft and Altgens 6 photos, it would make it easier for readers to follow this discussion.

P.P.S. I began this post last night, and had no idea so many fresh posts had been made. I see some of my questions were answered.

Robert

Have you ever read CE 2084? It is an FBI interview with Mary Woodward, the Dallas Morning News reporter.

Hell no, bigotry and racism are an essential part of America!

No Dave, I don't think you are understating this at all. I was quite surprised when I watched an interview done with Mary Moorman, in which she quite adamantly stated she snapped her famous Polaroid at the sound of the first shot, and that she heard two more shots following this one.

I believe there were more than three shots but, as some of these shots were suppressed, people at different locations in Dealey Plaza would hear different shots, depending on how close they were to the path of those suppressed shots. This assassination is a perfect example of the ability of a rifle suppressor to mask the location of a shooter and to spread confusion.

What has become of Robert Mady?

Hi Al

The more I dig into WC testimonies, HSCA interviews and ARRB testimonies, the less truth there seems to be to the myth that the majority of BOH witnesses "changed" their stories later on.

Pat

Does this not amount to perjury? Baxter was reading an official medical report he had submitted to the Administration of Parkland Hospital. You don't just "correct" an earlier error, for Pete's sake. This was a legal document. And don't you think it a little funny he was the only one reading from his report?

How many witnesses do you know that get to go back and correct statements or affidavits? The courts are far more interested in hearing what someone stated when the event was fresh in that person's mind, not months later when their memories have faded, and God knows what people have influenced their memory. Unless, of course, the WC didn't like what was in the report, and Baxter was coerced into changing his report.

A true commission, in search of the truth, would not have a doctor "read" his report into evidence. Why not enter it themselves and avoid possible error?

Is it safe to assume your lack of response means all of you concur with my theory?

Pat

Al makes a rather remarkable observation about the words in Dr. Baxter's medical report "...the temporal and occipital bones were missing..." being changed, when read into his WC testimony, to "....the temporal and parietal bones were missing....". Kudos to Al for spotting this, as this little "error" slipped right by me.

This is a rather serious bit of evidence tampering, and, in my country at least, would be dealt with rather harshly.

Are you going to ignore this, as you seem to do with most "difficult" points, or can you explain this?

Pat, it is almost embarrassing to see you drag out that tired old LN chestnut, namely that these trained surgeons confused the top of JFK's head with the back of his head, simply because JFK was lying on his back when they saw him.

Dr. Kemp Clark - "...a large wound in the right occipito-parietal region......Both cerebral and cerebellar tissue were extruding from the wound......There was a large wound beginning in the right occiput extending into the parietal region......There was a smaller amount of cerebellar tissue present also."

Dr. Charles Carrico - "....attempts to control slow oozing from cerebral and cerebellar tissue via packs instituted."

Dr. Malcolm Perry - "A large wound of the right posterior cranium was noted...."

Dr. Charles Baxter - ".....the rt temporal and occipital bones were missing...."

Dr. Marion Jenkins - "There was a great laceration on the right side of the head (temporal and occipital).....even to the extent that the cerebellum had protruded from the wound."

There is more, oh so much more, just like this, and not all from the first day, and it all says the same thing; a large gaping wound involving the right occipital region of JFK's skull, with cerebellum protruding.

Why can none of this be seen in the WC's back of head photo, Pat?

A lie repeated over and over is still a lie, Pat. When are you going to learn this?

So, what kind of bullet can penetrate the back of JFK's rib cage at just over 2000 fps, and not exit the front of the rib cage?

For starters, it most definitely was NOT a 162 grain, round nosed, full metal jacket 6.5mm Carcano bullet. Uh uh, just didn't happen. The 6.5mm Carcano was given the nickname, by the troops who used it, of the "Humanitarian Rifle", mainly because the long, stable FMJ bullet it fired generally went straight through its victims, and out the other side, without inflicting a lot of damage.

Next up would be a soft tipped bullet (lead tip exposed). It might have done the job, but I don't really think so. The hardest thing this bullet could possibly have hit was a couple of ribs, or maybe a rib and the sternum, which is mostly cartilage. There would be very little there to induce a soft tipped bullet to expand.

Next would be a hollow point bullet. These bullets are designed to open up and expand as they go through soft tissue, and need not hit anything hard to cause expansion, as a soft point bullet must. Once again, the right kind of hollow point just might have stopped partway through JFK's lung but, considering how little soft tissue there is at the upper part of the lung, I think even an expanded hollow point would have exited JFK's chest. Besides, there are several medical clues from the head shot that would indicate a completely different kind of bullet, such as the hundreds of dust like particles seen in the x-ray of JFK's skull.

The type of bullet I believe was used in the assassination of JFK was an early variant of the modern lethal bullet that can be seen at this website. Click on "DRT Technology" once at the site.

www.drtammo.com

This bullet is properly referred to as a "hollow point frangible" bullet. It has a very unique construction, and does things that no other bullet is capable of doing.

While the outer jacket is quite normal, and made from a copper alloy, the core of this bullet is not made from solid lead, as is the norm. The core of this bullet is a non-lead alloy, and is made by compressing metal powder under great hydraulic pressure. As the name of the bullet reveals, the tip of this bullet has a small hollow point, and one can see the compressed metal core through this hollow point.

In a wound, the hollow point frangible bullet works like this. It will penetrate thin bone, such as skull bone, leaving only a neat little entrance wound, no larger than an FMJ or soft tipped bullet will. Once the bullet begins travelling through soft tissue, the hollow point fills with semi-liquid matter, creating enormous temporary pressures inside the hollow point. As is the case with all hollow points, the hollow point opens up at this point, allowing the enormous pressure to be applied to an even greater area on the nose of the bullet. Within 2 inches of the point of entry, the pressure is so great, the compressed metal core particles lose adhesion for each other, and the compressed metal core disintegrates into a cloud of metal powder, plus segments of the bullet jacket. This cloud comes to an immediate halt within the wound, transferring ALL of its energy to surrounding tissue. This transfer of energy wreaks utter havoc on surrounding tissue, and dissections of game animals showing a zone of destruction 4 inches in diameter are quite common.

Before frangible bullets were used as lethal bullets, they were used as safe bullets for shooting at indoor ranges. These bullets also have the unique ability to not ricochet, if they strike a hard surface, such as steel, rock or concrete. If they hit such a surface, these bullets simply disintegrate into a cloud of dust. The people at DRT Ammo actively promote this feature in their product, as it makes these bullets much safer in an urban environment where collateral damage is always a concern.

Frangible bullets for the Carcano were manufactured by the Italians, and the last model produced were designated the M37 bullet. These were manufactured, for indoor ranges, as late as 1953, and possibly well into the 60's. These bullets were made solely for the fact they would not ricochet, and I am told the backstops for the targets, at these indoor ranges, were simply concrete walls. The reason for these late manufacture dates is that, while the 6.5mm Carcano ended its military service at the close of WW II, Italian shooting teams used the Carcano M91/41 in international competitions right into the 60's.

The M37 bullet has a rather strange construction. The copper alloy jacket is made from two pieces soldered end to end. Inside the nose is a tiny solid pellet, made from either lead or maillechort. Behind this pellet, the midsection of the bullet is powdered lead, and the base of the bullet is filled with sand. Due to the lower mass of the bullet, the gunpowder charge is reduced in the cartridge, although the muzzle velocity of this bullet is almost identical to that of a standard cartridge.

There is a small hole left open in the nose of this bullet's jacket, exposing the solid pellet, although it is important to note this is not a hollow point. I do not fully understand the mechanics involved here but, it would seem the open point is there only to begin the disintegration of the bullet.

While the M37 is slightly cruder in design than the DRT Ammo frangible bullet, I believe an effective and lethal bullet could be made from an M37, simply by carefully drilling a small hollow point partway into the centre of the solid pellet in the tip.

I also believe there is a distinct possibility JFK's throat wound was made by a fragment of the small metal pellet in the nose of the frangible M37 bullet that entered the back of JFK's skull at the external occipital protuberance.

However, when a wound of the skull is described as "right rear" and involving chiefly the occipital bone, it becomes plain that the witness is referring to the back of the head, as that is where the occipital bone resides.

Pat Speer

"So you're saying that when something is on the "right rear" they are saying it was on the side and not the back?"

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Possibly, Pat. Two things for certain, though. The wound would be behind the right ear, and it would be visible on the back-of-head autopsy photo.

A lie repeated over and over is still a lie, Pat. When are you going to learn this?

In Dr. Baxter's testimony to the ARRB, he testified the following:

"None of us at that time, I don't think, were in any position to view the head injury. And, in fact, I never saw anything above the scalp line, forehead line that I could comment on."

Some witness you chose, Pat.

Have you ever been at an autopsy, Pat?