Robert Prudhomme

Just read Thomas's edited version of his post, which places the Martin film alongside the Hughes film and shows the segments of the two films shot in front of the TSBD were shot at the same time.

Is there any way we can be absolutely certain the segments of these films shown here were taken 8-15 minutes after the assassination? Is it possible to narrow the time down a bit more than that?

P.S.

Just saw your last post, Thomas. Yes, everything here pivots on the accuracy of Groden's time estimate. Something still bothers me here, though, and it has ever since the first time I read Lovelady's and Shelley's testimonies and saw that both testified to remaining on the steps of the TSBD 3-4 minutes prior to Gloria Calvary running up to them with the news. How much longer were they there discussing the assassination with her? Somehow, we are to believe both men witnessed Truly and Baker entering the TSBD seconds after the last shot, yet both their testimonies would tell us this event had to take place at least three minutes post assassination, as they both testified to seeing Baker and Truly entering the TSBD AFTER they had left the front of the TSBD. Now, if just one of them had stated three minutes, I could put it down to the stress of the moment but two men saying the identical thing means either it really happened, or the two of them were telling the same well rehearsed lie.

I am beginning to wonder if the whole trip by Lovelady (and Shelley) to the rail yard ever happened.

Well, there you go, Thomas, once again Lovelady's testimony doesn't add up, and is disproven by photographic evidence; if the times you quote for Lovelady in front of the TSBD are accurate.

If Groden places Lovelady in front of the TSBD 8-15 minutes post assassination, Lovelady lied to the WC in his testimony.

According to his testimony, he remained on the steps for about three minutes until Gloria Calvary came up and told him JFK had been shot. He and Bill Shelley then proceeded (not sure why my type suddenly changed) down the Elm St. extension 100 yards to the rail yards, stopping after 25 steps to look back and see Truly and Baker entering the TSBD. They stayed at the rail yard for a minute and then re-entered the TSBD through a door at the rear. He then states he stayed on the first floor for thirty minutes and, following that, escorted some policemen up to the 6th floor. His testimony does not reveal what he did following the trip to the 6th floor.

As I understand, the TSBD was locked down at some point just after the assassination and no one was allowed in or out of the building. I do not recall when it was locked down and at what point the lockdown was lifted. Anyone?

I have to ask the question, just what was Billy Lovelady doing immediately after the assassination, and just where and with whom was he doing it?

I have been looking at an enhanced copy of the Hughes film, and I noticed, towards the end of it, what appears to be the front steps of the TSBD some amount of time after the assassination. Although hard to make out, I believe I can see Billy Lovelady at the bottom of the steps on the right hand side.

Does anyone know what time this footage was shot at?

From about 1:34 to the end of the Hughes film, I believe it is possible to see Billy Lovelady standing at the foot of the front steps of the TSBD. Does anyone know if it has ever been established at what time this segment of the Hughes film was shot?

I must have missed it. How did the other members go about dismissing it? Was the actual FBI report posted on here ?

There is an FBI report in which Lovelady states he wore a short sleeved red and white vertical striped shirt on the 22nd. The FBI even photographed him wearing it. If I could cut and paste on this forum, I would post it for you. The report was taken at the Dallas FBI office on 3/2/64.

Imagine Lewis is looking at LBJ's limo and waving at the occupants. Was Lewis wearing a long or short sleeved shirt?

Ray

If the black fellow is wearing a white shirt, and that is the white shirt we are seeing, the arm is obscuring the upper part of that shirt. The arm clearly belongs to someone standing to the right and forward of this man.

Robert

On top of the points you made, the TSBD was locked down by the police until well after the rifle was found. Nobody in, nobody out. How would Lovelady have made it outside by 1:00 PM? Even film had to be smuggled out.

P.S.

Given the amount of time Lovelady claimed he and Shelley were wandering around the rail yard, half an hour would be more like 1:10 PM. Hardly what one would call "just after the assassination". And Lovelady being asked to escort police upstairs is likely post discovery of the rifle, indicated by their request to go to the 6th floor.

Robert

I agree with everything you say. All photographic evidence points to Shelley and Lovelady departing the front steps of the TSBD for the rail yard immediately after the shots were fired, and not returning to the front steps but, rather, re-entering the rear of the TSBD briefly after their trip to the rail yards.

However, their is one problem with this, and it is the photo James shared with us in post #350. It shows Lovelady outside the front entrance of the TSBD and is purported to be "just after the assassination". James has been avoiding my questions about this photo, and I know you may be reluctant to discuss it, as it shows Lovelady in a checked shirt, but the inescapable truth of this photo is it shows a constable at the front entrance to the TSBD. We know it is not Baker, as Baker was wearing a helmet, so the only conclusion we can draw is that this photo was taken well after Baker entered the building.

How can Lovelady be in this photo?

P.S.

I believe Shelley and Lovelady were induced to lie about their 3-4 minute delay on the front steps, as this would give the WC lawyers wiggle room to get Victoria Adams off of the back stairs at the time Oswald was not coming down them. I`m actually surprised she lived long enough to testify, or was even called to testify.

Robert

I don't have a clue what has been done. I just know that, as we say around here, I keep adding two plus two and getting seven.

Something definitely stinks to high Heaven here, and I believe those who put the lie together did it in such haste and panic, they left quite a few loose ends behind them.

Robert

Victoria Adams RAN down the stairs IMMEDIATELY after the shots and saw Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor of the TSBD near a rear entrance.

Shelley and Lovelady both testified they were on the front steps of the TSBD when they heard the shots and stayed there 3-4 minutes BEFORE heading down Elm St. 100 yards to the rail yards. They also testified to seeing Truly and Baker entering the front of the TSBD just moments after they began their walk/trot to the rail yards. After staying at the rail yards a minute, they re-entered the TSBD via a rear door and were then on the first floor. Lovelady testified to seeing a girl "I saw a girl but wouldn't swear to it it's Vickie".

Now, the problem with this whole arrangement is that Vickie Adams testified she and Sandra Styles not only ran down the stairs immediately after the shots, they also headed out the rear of the TSBD without lingering on the first floor, and encountered Shelley and Lovelady who were on their way in.

James posts a photo of Lovelady outside the front entrance of the TSBD "just after the assassination". However, it is clearly some time after Baker and Truly have entered the TSBD, as other police can now be seen entering the building.

Does anyone see the problem here or do I have to start drawing pictures?

And if you folks really want to get into it about Doorman, where is Doorman's left shoulder? How is it the white shirt of the man behind Doorman seems to go all the way to Doorman's neck, seemingly placing the white shirt in front of Doorman's shoulder and obliterating it?

Here is another clue to help you figure out what I am getting at. Victoria Adams, Billy Lovelady and William Shelley all testified to the WC on April 7, 1964. Adams testified at 2:15 PM, Lovelady at 3:50 PM and Shelley at 4:10 PM.

Ray

Look at A6 again. If that is Doorman's arm, it is clearly in front of the black fellow. The arm may not belong to the black fellow but, if it belongs to Doorman, Doorman is picking the black fellow`s shirt pocket.

I just love how everyone conveniently dismisses the testimony of Shelley and Lovelady, in that they both remembered 3-4 minutes passing before either of them saw Truly and Baker entering the TSBD. This certainly presents a problem with Baker making it to the 2nd floor to confront Oswald, doesn't it?

And James, now that we know Lovelady did not return to the front steps of the TSBD, but re-entered the TSBD by a rear door and stayed on the first floor for thirty minutes, perhaps it is time we had a more in depth discussion about your photo showing Lovelady at the front entrance of the TSBD "just after the assassination".

P.S.

If you wonder why I keep bringing the two matters up together, ask yourself if there might not be a connection between the two.

With all due respect, Ray, why would Doorman have his hand on the chest of the black fellow in front of him?

James

Would you show me where Robert has stated that Lovelady can be seen returning to the front steps of the TSBD in the Couch film? Lovelady clearly states, in his testimony, that he re-entered the TSBD by a back door, and stayed on the first floor for thirty minutes.

This also brings us back to the photo you posted showing Lovelady at the front of the TSBD "just after the assassination", yet clearly AFTER Baker has run into the building, as there are now other police entering the building.

Would you not say this photo is impossible, given the testimony of Lovelady and Shelley to the WC?

Robert

Funny you should say that Lovelady "misremembered" the conversation with Gloria Calvary, and that the timing of the events in his testimony is impossible.

If you look at William Shelley's testimony to the WC, you'll find he recalls the same episode of Gloria Calvary running up to the steps and telling everyone JFK had been shot PRIOR to them leaving for the rail yards.

"Mr. Ball - Do you have any idea how long it was from the time you heard those three sounds or three noises until you saw Truly and Baker going into the building?

Mr. Shelley - It would have to be 3 or 4 minutes I would say because this girl that ran back up there was down near where the car was when the President was hit."

Seems to be an awful lot of "misremembering" going on that day.

Hello James

This is a little off topic but, I am always puzzled when I see the photo of Billy Lovelady outside the front entrance to the TSBD "just after the assassination", as the photo clearly shows police entering the building; something that occurred well after Baker made his dash into the TSBD seconds after the last shot was fired.

You see, Lovelady testified to the WC that he stood on the steps for three minutes before a girl named Gloria Calvary came running up to tell everyone at the entrance that JFK had been shot. At this point, according to his testimony, he and Bill Shelley walked/trotted 75-100 yards down to the railroad yards to see what everyone was heading towards. After they had gone 25 steps, again according to his testimony, they looked back and saw Roy Truly and Constable Baker hurrying into the front entrance of the TSBD. After staying at the rail yard for a few minutes, they re-entered the TSBD through the rear entrance, saw a girl on the first floor but "wouldn't swear to it it's Vickie" and then stayed on the first floor for "I would say thirty minutes", making NO mention of going out the front entrance again.

What do you make of all this, considering the photo you posted claims we are looking at Lovelady just after the assassination?

P.S.

Lovelady almost tells the WC who was standing behind him on the steps of the TSBD, but is cut off by Ball.

"Mr. Ball - Who was with you?

Mr. Lovelady - Bill Shelley and Sarah Stanton, and right behind me

Mr. Ball - What was that last name?

Mr. Lovelady - Stanton.

Mr. Ball - What is the first name?

Mr. Lovelady - Bill Shelley.

Mr. Ball - And Stanton's first name?

Mr. Lovelady - Miss Sarah Stanton.

Mr. Ball - Did you stay on the steps?

Mr. Lovelady - Yes."

Whew!!!! That was a close one, Mr. Ball!

Just out of curiosity, have there been attempts made to ID the person with hands raised over his head?

"....I found no examples of changed, omitted or manipulated testimony."

If testimony had been deleted, or omitted, or erased, or just plain disappeared, how would you be able to find an example of it, especially if it was made to look as if it never existed?

Who knows, it might have fallen off the back deck of the limo, following it swerving to the left and stopping, when the limo took off again under acceleration. It could have landed near the shoulder and been kicked onto the grass by a bystander.

What happened to the right rear portion of JFK's head, seen lying on the back seat of the limo by SSA Clint Hill, on the way to Parkland Memorial Hospital?

I must take issue with the locating of the entrance wound in Connally's back by those presenting evidence to the WC. Unwittingly or otherwise, this deception continues to be perpetuated, and I cannot let this continue.

I believe Dr. Shaw stated, in his post operative report and in testimony to the WC, that this entrance wound was an elliptical wound approx. 1.5x.5 cm. in size. I also believe Shaw stated, in his testimony, that the orientation of this elliptical wound was horizontal, unlike the vertical wound shown in the WC diagram, and that this statement was magically edited from his testimony, as often happens in the course of one sided commissions.

The horizontal/vertical orientation of the wound is critical to defining its true location. The location of the entrance wound in the WC diagram makes the path the bullet followed an impossibility. The wound is depicted as missing the lateral margin of the scapula (shoulder blade) by no more than 1 or 2 mm. If the bullet had entered the Governor's back at this point, one of several things would have happened:

1. If Connally had been turned to his right at all, and the shot came from behind the limo, the bullet would enter his back and be on a course 90° to the posterior section of Connally's 5th rib. It would have easily gone through the 5th rib and entered his right lung, contrary to the path Shaw described that followed the outside of the 5th rib.

2. If Connally was facing straight ahead, and the shot came from behind, the bullet could also have penetrated the posterior of the 5th rib and entered the right lung. It could have contacted the 5th rib at the mid axillary line, as Shaw testified but, because of the point of entry, it could not have followed the right to left course through the outside of Connally's chest wall described by Shaw, without making a sharp and unwarranted left turn.

3. If Connally had been turned to his left at all, and the shot came from behind, the scapula would have occluded the 5th rib from the path of the bullet, and the bullet would have passed only through the flesh of the outer chest wall.

4. If 1 & 2 had been the result of a shot fired from the west end of the TSBD, we once again have the problem of the bullet contacting the 5th rib at its posterior end, instead of at the mid axillary line (side of the chest), and very likely penetrating the rear of Connally's right lung.

The only way Connally could have suffered the right to left wound of the lateral and anterior chest wall, as described by Shaw, is if the bullet entered Connally's back much further from the shoulder blade, and toward the armpit, than the WC evidence diagram claims. Surprisingly, the only possible location for this entrance wound is right where Dr. Shaw said it was; "It was just medial to the axillary fold or the crease of the armpit..." On a two dimensional WC drawing, there does not appear to be much space between the crease of the armpit and the shoulder blade yet, in truth, the chest wall curves through this area, and "just medial to the crease of the armpit" is still quite a distance from the shoulder blade.

As I stated, the chest wall begins curving to the front between the shoulder blade and the armpit, and because of this, the path of the bullet would be approaching an almost parallel course to the side of the chest wall. Would such a tangential strike here not produce a horizontally elliptical wound, closely matching the horizontal scar described by Dr. Michael Baden, who was allowed to view Connally's back in 1978?

We have been duped and, more importantly, I believe Dr. Robert Shaw was duped, by a fast talking lawyer named Arlen Specter. The location of the entrance wound on Connally's back, and its horizontal/vertical orientation, was changed to try to make it fit the SBT.

P.S.

The drawing you posted, Bernice, is a disgrace, and should not be allowed on this forum.

And the orientation of the wound, Pat? There is something terribly wrong here, in my mind, about the precise location and horizontal/vertical orientation of the wound, and our eloquent witness, Dr. Shaw, is a living contradiction.

P.S.

I think we've beaten the 1.5/3 cm. wound thing to death, and we all agree it is settled.