Robert Prudhomme

Why not? Maybe he liked Hoover's "three shots, three hits" scenario better. Just because he created the WC, does not mean he could rule it with an iron fist.

Just like Pandora's Box, once you open the lid, you might no longer have control over the demons within.

Well, he would say that, wouldn't he?

*bump*

Time to bring this very important thread back into the light of day. Thanks again to Mr. Josephs and Mr. Davidson for all of their work (as confusing as I find some of it).

I see that a portion of my post, #65, has been quoted at the Reopen Kennedy Case forum.

I'm flattered, but I do wish people would quote the entire post and not just portions of it. The portion that was quoted makes me appear to support the myth of the Magic Bullet being able to pass through JFK and JBC, and certain people have a tendency to jump on things like this without investigating further.

To their credit, at least they have shown some interest in the topic.

P.S. BTW, Alan, it was pure chance I used the name "Traveller" at that other forum. It is the name of a large grey horse I own, and I use the name frequently on the Internet. As the forum in question did not have a policy requiring members to use their names, as most JFK forums do, I elected to use that one. I'm sure, though, that you will dream up a conspiracy theory involving this.

Okay, now that we have established just which particular thing I was referring to, would anyone care to offer an opinion on the actual topic of discussion; namely, the possibility a bullet ended up in JFK's right lung?

I was referring to the 6.5mm Carcano rifle, not the actual bullet it fired. I assumed this would be understood.

Hello Pat

The real question, in my mind, is not whether a bullet entered JFK's right lung and induced a tension pneumothorax but, rather, why the bullet did not exit JFK's chest; making a through and through wound. A similar question could be asked of the bullet that inflicted JFK's head wound.

It must be remembered that the 6.5mm Carcano bullet was a very long and robust FMJ bullet with a copper alloy jacket thicker than any other 6.5mm bullet. This bullet, because of its diameter and length, was an extremely stable bullet in flight and this, coupled with its round nose, gave it remarkable penetrating abilities, but not exceptional killing abilities. This is the reason Italian soldiers dubbed it the Humanitarian Rifle. It was not always the rifle's accuracy they were referring to. Their biggest complaint was that the 6.5mm Carcano bullet tended to go right through an enemy combatant without inflicting a great amount of damage. As one soldier quipped, the only advantage the Carcano had was that it was possible to shoot more than one person with the same bullet.

Clearly, for a bullet to enter JFK's right lung, and not exit the front of his chest, would require that bullet to be either a soft tipped hunting bullet or a hollow point bullet.

I make no apologies for my comments. Trolls are trolls.

BTW, just want to point out a small error made by Mr. Purvis.

He gives us a somewhat simplified explanation of "mediastinal emphysema", supplied by John McAdams, of course, and attempts to make us believe this build up of air in the right mediastinum was caused by the endotracheal tube being locked in place above the tracheal wound, and air from assisted ventilation being forced out of the tracheal wound, and into the mediastinum.

While air from a ruptured trachea or oesophagus has been known, on rare occasions, to induce this condition, it could not have happened in this instance. Air leaking from these sources must be contained to cause this condition, and JFK had a .25 inch hole in his throat. Any air escaping from the tracheal wound would have vented out from this hole to the atmosphere.

Hi Ray

Sorry for not responding sooner to you. I've been away for some time, and have not had Internet access.

This is indeed a puzzling photo, and for more reasons than you think. If you look closely at the relation of this slit to JFK's clavicle (collarbone), you'll see that it has been made at the "second intercostal space" or the gap between the second and third intercostal ribs. Also, the incision has been made about the midway point on the clavicle.

This incision can, by virtue of its location, be only one thing. It is an emergency attempt to decompress a tension pneumothorax, a condition noted by Dr. Jenkins and others. This is still, in 2014, the recommended site for insertion of a tube or needle to relieve built up air pressure in the right or left pleural cavity, and allow normal expansion of the unaffected lung.

I can understand how you are confused by Dr. Jenkins' words, "obvious tracheal and chest damage". One must remember that Jenkins was a highly trained trauma physician, and had to make diagnoses based only on the quickest of observations. The tracheal damage would have been obvious, once Dr. Perry opened the bullet wound for the tracheostomy, but the chest damage required Jenkins to add up all of the clues. The most important clue observed was the noticeable deviation of the trachea to the left, indicative of one thing and one thing only. The only thing that will deviate or push the trachea to one side or the other is built up air pressure in the pleural cavity on the opposite side of the deviation, referred to medically as a "tension pneumothorax" or "collapsed lung". This could be the result of an expanding bullet entering the lung, and staying there. While the wound in his back could have made this an "open pneumothorax" or "sucking" chest wound, oftentimes these chest entry wounds will seal themselves, or, worse, act as a one way valve; allowing air to enter the pleural cavity on inspiration but sealing it in on expiration.

However, since all accounts from Trauma Room One place the deviated trachea on the left side of JFK's neck, JFK can only have had a tension pneumothorax in the right pleural cavity, and while blood and air present in the mediastinum could indicate bilateral chest tubes as a safeguard measure, I don't think there was any doubt in the minds of the Trauma Room One doctors as to which lung was actually damaged. Looking again at the autopsy photo, and comparing the location of the clavicles, it is entirely possible there is a matching incision on the right side, as well, that is just out of view of the camera. Another possibility is that, during the autopsy, a second incision was made on the left side, matching the one on the right, and drawing attention away from likely damage to the right lung. Still another possibility is that the autopsy photo has merely been reversed, placing the right handed incision on the left side.

Before going further, I would like to state a number of conclusions I have drawn from the research I have done thus far. I will cite evidence and testimony to support each of these conclusions.

1. The back wound did far more damage to JFK than what has been reported to the public. If untreated, the back wound had the potential to be a fatal wound.

2. The back wound was lower than reported by the WC.

3. The bullet that penetrated JFK's back went deep enough to penetrate the right pleural cavity and likely did not exit the right pleural cavity. This would tend to rule out a round nosed FMJ Carcano bullet.

4. JFK had a condition known as a tension pneumothorax or "collapsed lung" on the right side of his chest as a direct result of the bullet that entered that lung. As stated in 1., this had the potential to be fatal.

5. Contrary to what was stated in the autopsy report, chest tubes were inserted in JFK's right pleural cavity by Parkland doctors to relieve the air pressure built up by the tension pneumothorax in JFK's right lung.

6. At no time was there a danger of the compromise in JFK's trachea leading to a tension pneumothorax once assisted ventilation was begun on JFK. This was even more so once the tracheotomy was performed on JFK. The tension pneumothorax was a result of a bullet wound in the back.

7. Subcutaneous emphysema apparent in JFK was never a concern to the Trauma Room One physicians and no attempt was made to deal with its condition, due to its non-threatening nature.

The subject is far more complex than just the three questions you have posed, Ray. What is at stake here is the validity of the Single Bullet Theory itself. It is going to get very complicated but I intend to elaborate further on Mr. Drago's work and show what a farce the entire autopsy was, and how coercion and threats were able to change the testimony of the Parkland surgeons, and have good surgeons like Malcolm Perry making the most ridiculous of statements in their testimony to the WC.

Unfortunately, Tom Purvis has thrown so much misinformation into this discussion, it will take several posts just to debunk the nonsense he has so carefully woven.

Make no mistake! Charles Drago was absolutely correct about Tom Purvis. On this thread's subject, on the rifle and many other subjects, Mr. Purvis was feeding this forum totally bogus information. I appreciate that he claimed to be a CT but, I could never quite comprehend just which conspiracy theory he subscribed to, if, in fact, he did.

I just read this entire thread for the first time, and I believe the main point of the whole chest tube drainage can be summed up in one question:

If subcutaneous emphysema is a non-life threatening condition, and is in fact more of an annoyance than anything else, why would Trauma Room One physicians, faced with a pulseless patient in agonal respirations, waste precious time attempting to relieve subcutaneous emphysema?

This would be on the same level as addressing an ingrown toenail prior to the commencement of CPR on a pulseless patient.

The only respiratory condition that will cause the trachea to deviate to the left is a tension pneumothorax in the right lung.

Can you define this condition and tell me if it was possible JFK had a tension pneumothorax in the right lung?

I just love watching Dave play "Golly gee Bob! I have no idea!"

As if....

Because it simply is tremendously important and significant, Dave.

Do you know what the only condition is, related to the respiratory system, that can cause deviation of the trachea to one side or the other?

Dave, what do you think might have caused JFK's trachea (windpipe) to be deviated somewhat to the left, as observed by several Trauma Room One doctors?

Tell me something, Dave. Why do you think there was such a panic to get the limousine out of Dallas that day?

Now you are being ridiculous, David, and are clearly demonstrating that you do not have a clue what you are talking about.

Why couldn't the bullet have passed slightly to the right of the T1 fracture? You're not serious, are you? Don't you get that the further to the right of the fracture on T1, or to the right of the T1 transverse process itself, the bullet path is placed, the greater the angle of the bullet path is to JFK's windpipe?

I think I finally understand you, Dave. You've been running on pure BS and rhetoric all these years, and when someone finally presses you on the finer details of the medical evidence, your complete ignorance is revealed.

You see, it's real simple, Dave.

If JFK's neck was just a piece of meat, with no spinal column in it, the Magic Bullet could pass straight through from back to front and hit Connally in the right armpit. Even with the bullet travelling at a lateral angle of 9° from the SN to the limo, it could do this.

However, the neck is not just a piece of meat. There is a great big piece of bone called the spinal column that occupies most of it.

Your own evidence tells us the ONLY part of that spinal column to be nicked by a bullet was the right transverse process of thoracic vertebra T1. As it could not go under the T1 transverse process without hitting the T2 transverse process, it had to go over the T1 transverse process.

As the T1 transverse process projects further to the side than the C7 transverse process, and there is no room for the bullet to pass between the T1 transverse process and the C7 transverse process, the bullet had to pass to the RIGHT of the C7 transverse process.

Considering the position of JFK and the limo, in order to miss the C7 transverse process and hit the trachea, an angle of 28° is required.

Two problems. This bullet could not have been fired from the SE corner of the 6th floor of the TSBD. Second, the path of this bullet would have been to the left of Connally.

You lose, boy.

Can't do it, right? No, I didn't think you could.

Your only option is to ask a lot of totally unrelated questions and dodge my question.

David von Pein has NO answers.

Nice attempt at deviation, Davey boy. It's about all you are good for.

Now, cut the crap and explain to us how a bullet travelling from right to left through JFK's neck at an angle of 28° can exit JFK's throat, make a right turn and head for Connally's right armpit.

Can't do it, right?

Oh boy, THANK YOU Mr. von Pein!!

You just made your first mistake, boy-o!

Okay, YES the bullet grazed the transverse process of thoracic vertebra T1 BUT, it missed the transverse process of cervical vertebra C7.

Now, even though this forum will not allow me to c/p diagrams, I will demonstrate why this fact STILL makes the SBT impossible. I hope Mr. Gordon follows my post with a good diagram to support my argument.

The cervical vertebrae sit in a stack above the thoracic vertebrae, with C7 sitting atop T1. The transverse processes are the projections that stick out to the sides of the vertebrae. The transverse processes of T1 project out to the sides much further than those of C7. The vertebrae are stacked so tightly together, there is NO room for a bullet to pass between the transverse processes of adjacent vertebrae. In other words, if the Magic Bullet grazed the top of the transverse process of T1, it had to pass WAY to the right of the end of the transverse process of C7 or it would have hit C7's transverse process too.

The vertebra Mr. Gordon shows in his diagram is, I believe, C7, and depicts the required 28° angle of passage required to miss the C7 transverse process AND still pass through the right side of JFK's trachea.

Now, it makes no difference if the bullet actually hit T1's transverse process OR the shock of it passing through fractured it. The undeniable fact is that it MISSED all of the cervical vertebrae and, in order to do so, had to pass far enough to the right of them to make the angle of passage so great, the bullet could not have hit Connally in the right armpit.

Honestly, Dave, the crap you're coming up with proves how desperate you're getting.

Dave

If the SBT is such a wonderful theory, and so many believe in it, why can not one single one of you show us the path the bullet took through JFK's vertebrae to avoid breaking any of them?

We're all ears, Dave.

David von Pein is about two French fries short of a Happy Meal.