Robert Prudhomme

LOL Ken, hard to say. Tell me, I know you are a fellow Canadian; are you in Saskatchewan or Ontario?

Just a dumb question, does everyone involved in this discussion, outside of Pat Speer maybe, pretty much agree with the Parkland observation of there being a large hole in the back of JFK's head?

I mean, let's go easy on each other, fellows. I have a sneaking suspicion we are all on the same team.

Ray

Thank you for posting that material. I'll be elaborating on it later today after I finish up a job I am working on.

David

It is not just necessary to merely prove the WC and its present supporters wrong on a few points, it is necessary to thoroughly denounce their lies on EVERY point, and to keep denouncing them, over and over, until such time as the magnitude of their fraud is apparent to everyone.

All of the points you mention about the rifle can be countered by Lone Nut theorists, and there is no absolute proof behind our arguments unless we were allowed to handle C2766 immediately after the assassination.

However, in the case of CE 399, we not only have a photo of CE 399 with a scale in centimetres in the photo, we have the FBI's firearms "expert" SA Robert Frazier's own testimony to back up our argument.

I believe I have absolute proof that the rifle allegedly used to shoot JFK was nowhere near accurate enough to have been capable of accomplishing the feats attributed to it on 22-11-63. Believe it or not, the proof has been sitting right out in the open all these years, in the form of WC evidence photos of CE 399 and the WC testimony of FBI firearms expert SA Robert A. Frazier.

However, as I am still unable to copy and paste anything to this forum, I am unable to post two things that would greatly help me explain what I have found.

Would someone be so kind as to volunteer to post this material for me, if I were to PM the material to them? Hopefully, I am able to c/p to a PM on this site. If not, it may be necessary to email the material.

Hello Ron

This is amazing, to say the least. Awfully decent of you to not say anything for all of this time.

Excellent post, Mr. Lifton. Ought to slow Pat Speer down for at least a minute. {sarcasm off}

Seriously, though, what do you think of the hypothetical possibility that the shot from the front, into JFK's head, was not meant to occur, and only happened because shooters from the rear had missed, and JFK was about to escape the trap? It seems to me it would have been so much easier to frame a shooter on the 6th floor of the TSBD with a fatal head shot originating from the rear.

Clint Hill is still standing on the back bumper and is nowhere close to what is perceived as JFK sitting up in the limo.

Pat can explore anything he wants. I'm just saying, the autopsy report contradicts the photographic evidence so badly, I find it hard to take any of it seriously.

The mere fact it is stated the wound is chiefly parietal but extending into the temporal and occipital regions is enough to raise red flags. While there have been attempts to elasticize the term "occipital region" on this forum, medical dictionaries are pretty much unanimous in defining the occipital region as that area of the head overlying the occipital bone; said bone being located entirely in the back of the head.

As 100% of the right occipital region, plus a goodly part of the right parietal region, of JFK's head is visible in the back-of-head autopsy photo, why is no large wound visible in those regions?

Well said, Daniel.

Strange how every Carcano in America seems to have a serial number and other identifying marks, yet the contract with the Italian government required all serial numbers and other identifying marks to be removed in Italy, prior to export to America.

Seriously, though, Meltzer doesn't know his butt from his elbow, and joins a long list of ignorant mouthpieces spouting off on things they have no knowledge of.

LOL Steven. It's probably easy to duplicate the feat on a radio show. Get the special effects guy to play three quick BANGS! and everybody in Radio Land thinks you're a marksman!

Darn, it doesn't seem to want to play for me.

Hello Gary

There seems to be a limited amount of information regarding the mounting of scopes on Carcano rifles at Klein's. Do you know how much care and attention was put into the mounting of these scopes? For instance, did the gunsmith take the time to boresight each weapon, to ascertain whether or not the scope and barrel were generally pointing in the same direction, or were the scopes simply bolted onto the rifles with the intent of letting the customer worry about alignment problems?

Considering the very inexpensive price Klein's was quoting to sell AND mount a scope, I cannot see how they could make a profit spending a lot of time fine tuning a rifle scope for the price they were charging. It is small wonder that, in post-assassination shooting trials, the scope base had to be adjusted with shims to even allow for adjustments to be made on the scope.

If Klein's was not a main supplier of Western Cartridge Co. 6.5 mm Carcano ammunition, do you know who was? There seemed to be a lot of this ammunition around in 1963, and it had to be coming from somewhere.

P.S. A quick perusal of the Klein's ad shows they were selling 6.5 Italian military ammo in lots of 108 cartridges, with clips. This would make sense, as the Carcano clips held 6 cartridges, and were issued in lots of 3 loaded clips, or 18 cartridges. Divide 108 by 18 and you would have 6 lots of 18 cartridges. Reading the article again about the Klein's gunsmith, it is clear he does not know what brand of ammo Oswald was supposed to have used that day. The hangfire experienced by him on the one demonstration shot he did for the FBI was typical of the SMI Italian military cartridges which were, of course, the cartridges sold by Klein's.

Well written, Joseph.

I have read about your revelation concerning the information gleaned from Tippit's father and the possibility that Tippit, and others, were searching for Oswald long before they should have had a reason to be searching for Oswald and I find this concept quite fascinating.

Is it possible to narrow down the time when a search in the area of Oswald's rooming house should have begun for him? This is assuming, of course, Oswald would have taken the illogical step of returning to his rooming house following the shooting of the POTUS.

If JFK was shot at 12:30, it seems to me that a lot of events had to take place before the APB for Oswald could be issued by the DPD. Roy Truly and Marrion Baker had to climb six flights of stairs at the TSBD (and stop to check out a man on the 2nd floor), investigate the roof of the TSBD, and descend by elevator to the main floor. How long was Truly on the main floor before it was noticed Oswald was not there? And did Truly not consider sending someone up to the 2nd floor lunch room before telling Fritz he had a man named Oswald unaccounted for? How long was spent getting Oswald's particulars from the other building? Then Truly had to go back up to the 6th floor and wait politely to tell Fritz he had a man missing. Did Fritz act upon this immediately? Was an APB put out on Oswald following this, as a suspect in JFK's assassination, or was the first APB on Oswald a result of the Tippit shooting?

I guess my main question is, was there enough time for the events I listed to take place before Tippit's encounter with Oswald, giving Tippit the description of JFK's killer, or should we be suspecting "other" sources?

Hi Dave

What has always bothered me about Klein's ad is that, no matter which rifle they are marketing, they continue to show the same photo. I realize, of course, this was likely done to keep advertising costs down but, there are things about the rifle in the ad that don't make sense, as well.

For instance, they advertise a "turned down bolt" in all three ads. This is odd, as it was standard for all short rifles and carbines, even those carbines made from M91 long rifles with straight bolt handles, to have turned down bolt handles.

The rifle in the ad appears to be an M91/24 carbine; a rather disastrous carbine (see "progressive twist rifling") made by cutting down the 31" barrels of M91 long rifles to the 17" carbine length, yet the forestock tip and forestock cap are all wrong.

My next thought is this would be a "Suprema" which was an M91 long rifle sporterized after WW II prior to shipping to the American market; another disaster (again, see "progressive twist rifling"). These rifles were sporterized by cutting their barrels down in length and having custom work done on their forestock. This would explain their claim of "turned down bolts", as all long rifles, including the later models such as the M91/41, had straight bolt handles. The rear sight also matches the M91 (plus the M91/24 carbine). Yet, when we look at the tip of the forestock, there is what appears to be a bayonet lug on the underside of the barrel, in a place where no M91 ever had a bayonet lug.

I'm confused.

Hi Gary

Good point you make there. It does say, later in the article, that Sharp was the only gunsmith employed at the time at Klein's, but makes no mention of Sharp having assistants.

The article mentions, at the end of the article, the ammo Klein's also sold for the Carcano. Do you know if this was Italian issue or Western Cartridge Co. ammunition?

P.S. I just read the article again. I missed the part where it said he was the only gunsmith at Klein's "at the time of the assassination". My apologies.

Hi Dave & Dave

This argument about whether a scope could have been mounted on an M91/38 short rifle, as opposed to if one was actually mounted on the most famous M91/38 of all, namely C2766, or any other M91/38, for that matter, has led to a slight misunderstanding amongst the reading public.

I know, DJ, that it has long been argued that Klein's only mounted scopes on the 6.5mm Carcano carbines, and not the short rifles, and this may indeed have been true (or not). However, this has led to the assumption there was something more involved in mounting a scope on a short rifle than a carbine, and that someone almost had to show the gunsmith at Klein's exactly where to mount the scope on the short rifle they brought for scope mounting.

The truth of the matter is, every Carcano ever made, including long rifles, short rifles, carbines and even the 7.35mm short rifle (along with its carbine derivatives) has exactly the same receiver and bolt on it as the next Carcano, and are thoroughly interchangeable. If the gunsmith at Klein's had mounted scopes on M91/24 carbines, he would be proficient at mounting scopes on M91/38 short rifles, as well.

I would also like to point out, DVP, that in the interview you posted, Klein's gunsmith did not have any kind words for the M91/38 OR the cheap toy scope mounted on it.

The cartoon of the wrist wound is about as bizarre as can be. It shows the bullet passing through JBC's hand, entering palm side, when, in reality, it passed through the lower end of his forearm between the two long bones, the radius and the ulna. As you say, James, the bullet entered the back side of his wrist, not the palm side, and exited the palm side of his wrist.

As you pointed out, the 6.5 mm FMJ bullet fired from the Carcano has great penetrating abilities, and for this reason, was used in Africa to hunt elephants, invariably with head shots. Contributing to this are its round nose, allowing it to punch through matter instead of deviating as a pointed bullet might, its tough jacket walls (thicker than any other 6.5 mm FMJ bullet) and its smaller calibre and extreme length which lend it great in flight stability, as well as great stability when travelling through matter. With all of this going for it, one is left to wonder how the bullet that entered JFK's skull disintegrated into miniscule particles, as it did.

Returning to the wrist wound, there are a number of things about it that many seem to be unaware of. For example, the bullet that struck JBC's wrist appears to have been tumbling when it hit, and did not strike nose first. Rather, the bullet hole in JBC's shirt cuff was easily as long as a Carcano bullet, indicating it struck JBC's wrist side on. There is further evidence of this in the wound.

Now, before the WC supporters think I have joined their ranks, let me tell you the other things about the wrist wound that seem to not be common knowledge. The bullet that struck BC's wrist did not hit in the opening between the radius bone and the ulna bone (two long bones of the forearm) but, rather, struck the radius bone full on, breaking it into several fragments but NOT passing through it. This should have been the end of this bullet's journey but, miraculously, it then managed to somehow pass neatly between the radius and the ulna and hit JBC in the left thigh.

To understand just how ridiculous this is, imagine a brick wall around your yard with a narrow opening in it for your driveway. Further imagine yourself driving home after a night at the pub, attempting to turn into your driveway and running square into the brick wall instead. Then, without backing up, imagine yourself miraculously on your driveway and headed to your house, without so much as a scratch on the car. How did you get around the brick wall? In the case of CE 399, how did it run square into the radius bone, and then find itself miraculously at least an inch over and passing between the radius and the ulna??

Finally, James, you are quite correct in pointing out that the bullet struck the back side of JBC's wrist and travelled through it from back side to palm side. However, what most are unaware of is how impossible this is. If the bullet exited JBC at the level of his right nipple, this means that JBC's right forearm had to be rotated back far enough to present the back of his wrist to the path of this bullet. This is, of course, the exact opposite of what is portrayed in the Nova cartoon. Unless JBC was severely doublejointed in his right elbow, and there is no evidence to support this, it would have been physically impossible for JBC to hold his arm in this fashion. Not only that, to even come close to this position is an extremely uncomfortable thing to do, and the natural position would be the one shown in the Nova cartoon.

Figured it out yet, Davey?

True, David. There likely were people up there. I just don't think much of the shooting matches up to the 6.5mm Carcano found on the 6th floor.

Robin

I seem unable to post photos on this forum but there is a lovely still from that animation where the makers of this show made a host of mistakes.

1. The magic bullet is shown exiting JFK's chest just above his right nipple.

2. The magic bullet seems to be travelling through Connally at a downward angle of 45° and is shown exiting just above his navel.

3. The magic bullet is shown entering the palm side of Connally's wrist, and exiting the back side of his wrist. Medical records show the magic bullet actually ENTERED the back side of Connally's wrist, and EXITED the palm side of his wrist.

Of course, one can't really blame the makers of this animation for not showing things as they really were, as this would show to all what a mockery and a fraud the Silly Bullet Theory really was.

P.S. There are other reasons why the wrist wound makes the Silly Bullet theory impossible. Care to hear them?

As an old boss of mine was fond of saying, "Hard to get good help these days."

Hi Bill

This is assuming there was a 6th floor sniper.