Robert Prudhomme

I think Frazier is stretching the truth in a number of places, as well as embellishing it. It sounds very impressive to have three shots hit within the space of a dime, even if it is only 15 yards out. This is not a bad grouping, even for 15 yards, and even if it is high by the incredible amount of 2.5 inches. The one inch lateral deviation to the right at 15 yards is about what one would expect from a side mounted scope, as that is roughly how far apart scope and barrel are. However, one would expect line of sight and line of departure, with a side mounted scope, to be on a converging lateral course and be meeting at the 100 yard mark. Why, then, does this rifle have a lateral spread of 5 inches on the target at 100 yards?

The answer is quite simple, actually. There is no question that the phenomenon, witnessed by Frazier, of the bullets landing progressively further to the right of the bullseye at 100 yards, making a 5 inch lateral spread on the target, was also occurring on the 15 yard target, despite all of the 15 yard bullet holes landing within the space of a dime. Frazier wrongly attributed this "walking away" from the bullseye to the scope needing to "settle in" following adjustments made to it but, this is utter nonsense. The real reason was that the end of the wooden forestock was warped from improper storage and maintenance of the rifle. The forestock was pressing against the barrel, bending it slightly and causing the shots to go wide. With each shot, the barrel heated and expanded, causing the forestock to push on the barrel with increasing pressure and making the shots land even further to the right, eventually resulting in a 5 inch spread at 100 yards.

How, then, could all the shots land within the space of a dime at 15 yards? Once again, we must use algebra. Assuming a dime to be 3/4 inch in diameter, we can say the following:

.75 is to 15 what "x" is to 100

.75 x 100 divided by 15 = x

75/15 =x

x = 5 inches

In other words, the "walking away" of the bullets, seen as a 5 inch lateral spread at 100 yards, still takes place at 15 yards but manifests itself as only a 3/4 inch lateral spread.

I may be completely wrong on this but, isn't it true that the only reason resuscitation attempts were even begun on JFK was that the doctors arrived in Trauma Room One after JFK was brought in, and were unaware of the extent of his head injury; simply because it was not readily visible?

LOL!!! Small wonder we have so much difficulty getting our message out there.

LOL Good point, Mark. I never noticed that before. You seem to have a propensity for observing these little oddities.

I think your explanation makes perfect sense, and it may have been a comfortable way to carry such a short weapon.

The sling in the photo would be used to carry the rifle on your shoulder. It would not dig into the flesh as much as a simple rope sling would.

No idea what the mark on the magazine would be, or if it would be something to do with fingerprint recovery. Besides, I thought the palm print was on the trigger guard, not the magazine.

You make excellent points there, Stephen. Regardless of how obvious something may seem, without evidence, it will not withstand attack.

That being said, it is curious to note how many obvious leads were passed up by the investigating bodies in the assassination. I have always been astounded how the search for the assassin(s) immediately narrowed to one man with the discovery of the rifle on the 6th floor. What a brilliant bit of police work, deducing that the assassin had acted alone, with the discovery of a rifle and some spent cartridges.

Hi Mark

This is a very good question. The official history from the Italians is that all M91/38 short rifles were equipped with newly manufactured barrels having standard twist rifling (as opposed to the progressive twist rifling on earlier Carcanos) with a right hand twist. There are no sources I can find that tell what the rate of twist was, but it is known the 7.35mm M38 Carcano short rifle had a rate of twist of 1:10. There is also no evidence this rate of twist was changed when the 7.35mm M38 short rifle was discontinued in 1939 and the 6.5mm M91/38 short rifle was introduced in 1940.

As I said, this is the official history. What actually happened could be something entirely different, and is the basis for my next installment in this discussion.

Gene

Excellent point.

David J.

Another excellent point about the sunlight on the rifle.

Hi Gene

I have often pondered these questions myself. In my mind, the obvious rifle to have planted would have been a semi-automatic M1 Garand; the rifle Oswald trained with in the USMC. It has an excellent peep sight and a rate of fire that would have allowed a shooter to empty the entire eight round clip in the time it took to fire three shots from the Carcano. One did appear in the same Klein's ad as the Carcano but it sold for $80, as opposed to the $12.95 Carcano. Perhaps, it seemed unbelievable that a man with a family earning minimum wage could afford such a weapon.

Sometimes I think the conspirators wanted investigators to see through the whole lone assassin story, and to "discover" Oswald was a Soviet or Cuban agent and invade Cuba in retaliation; much the same way Iraq was invaded for somehow being tied to 9/11.

But, most of the time, I think it was just 1963, and even those who thought of questioning their government did not have access to the massive information sources available to us now on the Internet. The Carcano was likely chosen simply because it was a snappy looking little rifle, well within Oswald's price range, and for a few measly dollars extra, it came equipped with a scope. At this point in time, most hunters did not have scopes on their rifles, unlike today, and the mere fact the rifle was equipped with a scope would have been enough to impress most hicks. The conspirators likely never dreamed that, fifty years later, we would be picking apart the history of the Carcano and the finer points of Carcano ballistics.

Anyone who still believes the M91/38 Carcano found on the 6th floor of the TSBD was capable of the performance credited to it on 22/11/63, is simply not paying attention.

Now that we have established the primary reason the 6.5mm Carcano was dubbed the "Humanitarian Rifle", that being the terminal ballistics of the 6.5x52 mm cartridge were insufficient to give the rifle serious stopping or killing power, let us see if we can find other reasons for this nickname.

As I stated in the last post, the M91 6.5mm Carcano long rifle was not an inaccurate weapon; its only fault was that it fired a very long, stable, round nosed, full metal jacket bullet that adhered strictly to the conventions of the Hague Peace Conference. It was designed to cause limited damage in a wound and it did everything its designers intended.

As in most armies, the M91 long rifle, with its 31 inch barrel, was issued to the infantry. Other branches of the army, such as cavalry, artillery, scouts and support troops also needed weapons but it was found early on that such a long unwieldy weapon as the M91 did not work well in these applications. Something shorter was needed and the "carbine" rifle was developed. Two carbine models were introduced in the 1890's, the Moschetto da Cavalleria (cavalry carbine) and the Moschetto per Truppe Speciali (special troops or TS for short).

The 6.5 Carcano M91 long rifle was made with what is known as "progressive" or "gain" twist rifling grooves, as opposed to the far more common "standard" twist rifling grooves. While standard twist rifling has the same rate of twist throughout the length of the barrel (for example 1:7, meaning the riflings make one complete turn in 7 inches of barrel length), the M91 riflings started, at the breech, at a gentle 1:19 twist, and progressively got tighter, achieving a twist rate of 1:8 at the muzzle where the bullet exited. As the Carcano bullet was relatively heavy for its calibre at 162 grains, it was necessary to have the fast 1:8 rifling twist to gyroscopically stabilize the bullet in flight and give it accuracy. Without this fast twist, the bullet is under stabilized and accuracy suffers dramatically.

The cavalry carbine was the first to be introduced in 1893 and was made, quite literally, by sawing the front half of an M91 barrel off, reducing its length from 31 inches to 17 inches. The M91 wooden forestock was cut short, as well, the bolt handle turned down from the M91 straight bolt handle and the rear sight changed. It is not known how much of the progressive twist rifling was sacrificed but it is likely safe to say what remained of the barrel had, at most, a rifling twist of only 1:13. As many modern shooters have discovered, this short sighted and very stupid error on the part of the Italian authorities caused the Moschetto da Cavalleria to be a carbine that "couldn't hit the water from a boat". Early production of the TS carbine, beginning in 1897, also were made from cut down M91 long rifles.

Following WW I, Italy was left with great inventories of M91 long rifles and a stagnating economy. In a move to modernize their army with shorter weapons not as unwieldy as the M91's and to keep production costs down, the M91/24 TS carbine was introduced in 1924, again with a 17 inch barrel. M91 long rifles were cut down again to make the M91/24 TS, and this new version of the TS carbine was to become the main service rifle until the lead up to WW II in 1938. Once again, no thought was given to the disastrous effects removing 14 inches of a 31 inch progressive twist barrel would have on the accuracy of that rifle. OTOH, it was likely the progressive twist rifling that was the inspiration for the M91/24 TS in the first place. As the gentle 1:19 rifling at the breech of the M91 barrel would cause far less barrel wear than the 1:8 rifling at the muzzle, a "worn out" M91 barrel could be made new simply by removing the worn out forward 14 inches of the barrel and making it into a carbine.

The only relief to this carbine madness was the introduction in 1928 of the M91/28 TS carbine. It was an all new rifle and not a cut down version of a long rifle. Its introduction ended the manufacture of M91/24's. Perhaps their stocks of worn out M91's were running out, or perhaps someone came to their senses and realized what inadequate weapons were being supplied to Italian troops. Regardless, many of the M91/24's were made and saw great service in WW II and likely contributed to the poor performance of the Italians in North Africa.

So, we have now seen another reason the Italian troops dubbed the 6.5 Carcano the "Humanitarian Rifle". Careful note should also be made of the Italians' propensity for recycling worn out or overstocked M91 long rifles, with no regard for the detrimental effects on rifle accuracy of removing the tightest part of the progressive twist rifling. This will be discussed again in the next installment of the "Humanitarian Rifle", in which I will discuss the real reasons the 7.35x51 mm M38 Carcano was discontinued.

Of course, there is another en bloc clip fed rifle serious researchers should look at. In fact, it is believed the Carcano was closely patterned after this rifle. It is the German "Gewehr 88" or Model 1888 Commission Rifle. I can't post a pic of it but a quick search on Google should turn up some nice photos of it.

This is a very strange argument, something similar to selling someone a left handed screwdriver. The scope was mounted on the left side of the Carcano receiver simply because the Carcano bolt stands straight up and down, when being extracted, and the space above the magazine had to be left open to load the six round en bloc clip.There was also nowhere to mount it on the right side without interfering with the bolt. I suppose this mounting may have made it easier for a right handed person who preferred to use his left eye to look through the scope, although this event would have been entirely coincidental.

So, it doesn't pique anyone's curiosity that the clip never seemed to have fallen out of the Carcano magazine until, it seems, the rifle was halfway to DPD headquarters, despite all of the handling the rifle received at the TSBD?

Almost everyone who has studied the JFK assassination has heard the 6.5mm Carcano referred to as the "Humanitarian Rifle". As often stated, this name was given to it by the Italian troops who carried it but, unbeknownst to most, the reasons it was given this name are not as straightforward as imagined. While the name began with Italian troops, its reputation as an inaccurate rifle grew long after the Carcano was removed from active military service and, surprisingly, was mostly not the fault of the rifles.

This story begins with the introduction, in 1891, of the first Carcano; the M91 long rifle. With its 31" barrel, the M91 was a very accurate rifle, yet the problems that led to the name of "Humanitarian Rifle" began with the M91. You see, the troops were not complaining about the ability of the Carcano to hit a target, they were complaining about the ability of the Carcano to KILL its target.

To understand this problem, let us look at the similar problems experienced by the British Indian Army, and the solution they came up with to solve it.

Prior to the introduction of smaller "modern" cartridges, such as the 6.5 Carcano, rifles had very large bores, used black powder as a propellant, and hurled great chunks of unjacketed lead bullets at lower velocities. They were quite limited in range, hence the desire for faster, smaller bullets, and the wounds caused by these unjacketed bullets were often horrendous. Suffice it to say that one hit from these bullets either killed you or disabled you; few continued the fight. However, unjacketed lead bullets did not do well in the smaller bores at higher velocities. It was found, after only a few shots, the riflings in the rifle barrels were fouled with lead to the point of making the rifle inaccurate. The copper alloy jacket was devised to overcome this problem. It is not clear how the full metal jacket came about but it is believed it was made at the same time to prevent the copper alloy jacket from separating from the lead bullet in the barrel of the rifle; a very real possibility in the minds of the designers but one never actually proven.

Anyways, back to the British Indian Army and their .303 Enfields. With the introduction of the Mk. II cartridge with its roundnosed, full metal jacket projectile, it soon became apparent to British troops that they now had their own "Humanitarian Rifle". These bullets did not expand when they hit enemy soldiers, and cause the great grievous wounds made by the unjacketed bullets these troops were used to shooting from their former large bore weapons. Often, the bullets passed right through an enemy combatant, and caused little damage. As the Indian Army was often outnumbered in skirmishes with indigenous forces, a need was quickly seen for a bullet capable of stopping an enemy combatant with one shot instead of four or five.

At the Dum Dum Arsenal in Dum Dum, India, in 1897, a Captain Bertie Clay developed the first dum dum bullet simply by removing 1 mm of the copper alloy jacket from the nose of a Mk. II bullet, exposing the soft lead tip underneath. In effect, Capt. Clay had made the first soft tipped jacketed bullet. They were an instant hit with the troops, as, with the expanding tip, these bullets did far more damage than the FMJ bullets.

The Indian soft point bullet was not adopted by the British Army. While the dum dum bullet was being developed in India, the British Army was working on their own expanding bullet at the Woolwich Arsenal in Britain. This was also a soft tipped bullet but it included a hollow cavity at the nose, in effect making the Mk. IV bullet the first hollow point bullet upon its introduction in 1898. These were even more effective at stopping enemy combatants; so much so that they were shortly after banned at the 1899 Hague Peace Conference as being "inhumane".

Still desiring effective stopping power but wishing to remain within the conventions of the Hague Peace Conference, the British experimented further with bullets and, by 1907, had come up with the Mk. VII cartridge. Its bullet, while being a full metal jacket, incorporated revolutionary features that gave it effective stopping power. This cartridge was used through two world wars and right up until the .303 Enfield was replaced in the late 1950's. First, the Mk. VII bullet had a pointed nose instead of the previous round nose. This caused this bullet to tumble when it contacted bone, instead of punching its way through as a round nosed bullet would. To further encourage the bullet to tumble, inside the full metal jacket the forward half of the bullet was made from light aluminum, while the rear half of the bullet was made from heavy lead. This disproportion in mass between the front and back end of the bullet made it very unstable, causing the bullet to tumble at the slightest provocation inside a wound and cause far more grievous wounds than a simple roundnosed FMJ bullet could.

While we have been discussing the British .303 Enfield, it should be obvious by now why the Italian troops dubbed the Carcano the "Humanitarian Rifle". The M91 and its 6.5x52 mm cartridge would have had all of the problems of the .303 Mk. II cartridge, and then some. The 6.5 Carcano was a smaller calibre than the .303, yet the bullet was longer. This would have made the Carcano bullet even more stable than the .303 and, thus, more resistant to tumbling in wounds. Unfortunately, the Italian commanders did not address this problem until 1938, thirty years after the British. Even then, their solution was short lived, and by 1940, the Carcano had again become the "Humanitarian Rifle".

More to come.

I certainly expected a few more comments or questions on these subjects, considering how radical some of the assertions I have made are.

Hi David J.

Well, you make very good points. You are quite correct in saying there is a powerful case for Boone and Weitzman (and Roger Craig) having seen a rifle other than a Carcano; specifically a 7.65mm Argentine Mauser carbine. I'm not disagreeing with that. What I am saying is that any evidence supporting this, outside of their affidavits, has been very neatly disposed of. Just to be fair, it should be noted that the 7.65 A.M. has a built-in, protruding box magazine that looks remarkably similar to the Carcano. If I could c/p on this forum, I would post a photo for you. As the 7.65 A.M. and the 6.5 Carcano were both imports and likely not as common as other rifles, I could see someone with a passing acquaintance with both rifles confusing the two.

Also, I am not saying that the rifle in the NARA photo and the rifle in the backyard photo are the same rifle. However, both rifles are either M38 or M91/38 Carcanos. Despite what appears to be a bottom sling mount ring on one rifle, there is no doubt as to the make and model.

I'm not trying to start an argument with you over this, Dave, but I think you should be aware that, while I will support good evidence of a conspiracy, I will come down hard on anything I consider junk evidence, as it is junk and does nothing to further our cause. I am referring specifically to those who think they have seen a rifle other than a Carcano in the Alyea film because of what appears to be a square trigger guard. A serious researcher, believing this, would have established just what the make and model of the rifle actually was, if not a Carcano, before announcing to the world they had found "new" evidence of conspiracy.

I've received a few PM's from him. He gets quite nasty if you don't see things his way.

Hi David Josephs (have to start calling you two Dave1 and Dave2 LOL)

The information pointing at the rifle being found in the TSBD as being a 7.65mm Argentine Mauser carbine is too strong and detailed to simply be dismissed. That being said, I think enough leads to the Mauser have been extinguished to keep anyone from proving, with any degree of certainty, that a Mauser was found and that it was anywhere but the 6th floor.

The rifle being examined on the 6th floor in Alyea's film is, without a doubt, either an M38 or an M91/38 Carcano. To those who believe otherwise, here is the challenge. If not a Carcano, what make and model of rifle is that?

Further, in the comparison photos of the NARA rifle and the backyartd photo rifle, the only difference between the two is the sling mount rings. The backyard photo is clearly an M38 or M91/38 Carcano. The metal cap on the wooden forestock is very unique and the only reason it appears not to match in both photos is the rifle in the BYP is rotated towards the camera, while the NARA rifle is photographed straight from the side.

While bottom sling mount rings on M38's and M91/38's are extremely rare, they are not unheard of, and some were installed during the manufacture of the rifle. It must be remembered that Italy was at war when the M91/38's were made, and not doing particularly well, at that, and for this reason the correct rifle parts were not always available. Also, following the war, thousands of rifles, in varying states of disrepair, found their way back to Italian arms factories. Many of the more damaged rifles were used for parts to make whole rifles for the surplus market and it is not inconceivable for a bottom sling mount from a Carcano carbine or long rifle to find its way onto a Carcano short rifle.

Hi Dave

I hope you are sitting down when you read this. I'm afraid I have to agree with you about the rifle being examined in the photos from the TSBD. There is no doubt, in my mind, that it is either an M38 or M91/38 Carcano. (now take a couple of seconds to wipe the coffee spray off your screen LOL)

The trigger guard is somewhat puzzling but, upon examination, the rear of the trigger guard is not really a continuous curve but, rather, two straight edges joined by a short curve. As you say, the right lighting would give the impression of a square corner.

It is certainly not a 7.65mm Argentine Mauser carbine, as the shape of the magazine is wrong and its trigger guard is even more rounded at the rear. Plus, this carbine does not use the Mannlicher "en bloc" clip system, and would not have the characteristic slot at the bottom of the magazine (where the empty clip falls out), seen in these photos.

The closest thing I could find was the Steyr-Mannlicher 1895 carbine. It also uses the "en bloc" clip and has a groove in the stock, similar to the M91/38. However, its trigger guard is even more rounded at the rear than the 7.65 A.M., and its magazine is not a straight line profile from the trigger guard but has, instead, quite an indentation between trigger guard and magazine.

What I find puzzling about these photos is the amount of handling this rifle received at the TSBD, without the empty clip falling out the bottom of the magazine. As you well know, when the last cartridge is chambered, there is nothing holding the clip up and gravity causes it to fall out the bottom of the magazine. Yet, the first anyone sees of this clip is when it is carried on the street from the TSBD to DPD offices.

I am more than prepared to be proven wrong about the rifle in the photos, though, if someone can produce a rifle that matches these photos, other than the M91/38 Carcano.

Second question: Will the rifle's wooden forestock be warped, and cause each successive shot to go higher than, and further to the right of, the point of aim than the previous shot?

Excellent! It looks like a much busier place now.

Interesting, Andric. I see that Mr. Williams makes the claim that test shots were fired at 15 yards, and the scope adjusted before any other shots were fired. This, too, is false and, of course, Mr. Williams does not back this false claim up with testimony from Mr. Frazier, simply because there is none to support this.

Mr. Williams also parrots Frazier's outrageous claim that the scope needed "some shots to settle" after adjustments were made to it. Luckily for Messrs. Williams and Frazier, the majority of the public does not know much about rifle scopes.

From the WC testimony of SA Robert Frazier:

"And, therefore, we left the rifle as soon as it became stabilized and fired all of our shots with the point of impact actually high and to the right."

Just a thought, John. The front page of this forum has eight pinned threads and only six active threads below it. If you'll notice, no one has posted to the majority of these pinned threads in over six months. Granted, three are locked but, a locked, pinned thread has the word "stale" written all over it.

In contrast, Duncan's forum not only has more threads to the page, I've never seen more than one or two pinned threads on the front page. Judging by the numbers of guests and members listed at the bottom of the page, activity seems to be growing there instead of declining.

David

There did not have to be an exiting fragment to make the large wound in the rear of JFK's head.

When you inflate a balloon to the point it ruptures, is there a fragment that makes the hole or is it just air pressure?