Robert Prudhomme

Hi Paul No. the cartridge found in the chamber of C2766 was definitely a FMJ bullet. C2766 may or may not have been fired that day. All I am saying is that leaving a FMJ cartridge in the chamber of C2766, plus three empty casings of the same brand on the floor, would lead an investigator to believe ALL of the bullets fired at JFK were FMJ. The interesting thing about the bullet fragments found in the limo is how very small they were. Also, the nose of the jacket of the bullet that struck JFK's head was found by itself. How did the nose of the jacket separate from the rest of the jacket? What "characteristics" did they find in the bullet fragments that matched them to 6.5mm Carcano bullets? The fact they were all made from lead?

I can hardly wait for the stereoscopic viewer I bought to arrive in the mail. Here is the rather economic unit I finally decided on. I hope it is adequate for the task. http://www.ebay.ca/itm/220518974083 This is great work you have done, Tom. Who would have thought the BYP's were stereoscopic photos?

Hi Tom I see now. Craig is saying Marina merely stepped closer, and that somehow achieved the 3D effect. I agree with you. The 3D effect is achieved by taking a second photo from a different angle, not simply by moving closer. Besides, I thought it was determined long ago that Oswald's head is exactly the same size in all three photos, and moving closer should have made his head bigger.

Robert, I've been reviewing the WC testimony of Washington DC FBI laboratory experts in their analysis of the ballistics they obtained from the Dallas FBI through the Dallas Police, and of the clothing worn by JFK and Governor Connally in the assassination limo, and of the medical evidence from Parkland and Bethesda. In particular, Robert Frazier and Cortlandt Cunningham gave scientific, laboratory attention to this physical evidence. They first admitted that they did not gather the evidence themselves, but were entirely dependent on others to supply them with the proper evidence to analyze. They secondly admitted some limitations to their analysis, e.g. Govenor Connally's clothes had been cleaned and pressed before they were given to the FBI Laboratory, and the number of shell casings did not match the number of bullets obtained from the Tippit murder, and also, the number of bullet fragments retrieved did not explain the precise wounds reported, and the precise number of dents in the assassination limo. One of their questions echoes Lipsey -- what happened to the bullets that entered JFK's body? They denied the premise of the SBT, which is that one bullet entered JFK's back, exited his throat, entered Governor Connally making five wounds, and then emerged almost intact (losing only 2 grains of metal) as CE 399. The SBT failed to explain the Zapruder film position of the bodies, as well as the testimony of Governor Connally and Mrs. Connally about the first bullet that hit JFK. Even ranking members of the Warren Commission refused to accept the SBT. However -- what puzzled Frazier and Cunningham was this. If a bullet entered JFK's back -- then what the hell happened to it? They had to admit that it must have continued inside the limo -- and then hit something else. But they found only two things damaged in the limo, namely, the inside windshield, which was barely cracked, and a small dent in the chrome above the windshield. According to Frazier, if a 6.5 mm bullet entered JFK's back and exited his neck, passing only through soft tissue, it would have had enough velocity to puncture a hole in the windshield and travel for a full mile, or until it hit something else. Or, if it hit the chrome above the windshield, it would have easily punctured a gaping hole in the chrome. Where did the bullet go? That was their biggest puzzle. If it ricocheted off of something else in the limo, that would have been visible to the naked eye -- but they carefully combed every inch of the assassination limo, and found no other dents or damage. This is why they let themselves be browbeaten by Arlen Specter to admit that the SBT was at least possible. No other reason. As for the clothes of Connally, they had a hole in the back of his coat and shirt, a hole in the front of his coat and shirt, a hole in the right wrist of his shirt, and a hole in top left leg of his trousers. There were fragments in his wrist, and a tiny fragment was left in his left leg. As for the clothes of JFK, they had only the hole in the back of JFK's coat and shirt, and a hole in the shirt collar below the necktie. Yet this collar hole did not resemble a bullet hole, which at high velocity is always circular. Instead, this was a wide shape, and it showed no metallic residue under a microscope. It could have been made by a bone or some other projectile, he said. The data about JFK matches what Lipsey overheard at Bethesda. It seems the surgeons at Bethesda encountered the same puzzle -- and they spent extra time looking for the missing bullet. It made no sense to them. Yet today, fifty-three years later, everything suddenly makes sense when we consider the technology of a frangible bullet in 1963, which was known by ballistics experts, but not yet well-known among surgeons -- even Military surgeons. The fact that hundreds of metallic particles were found in JFK's brain is the best explanation, IMHO, for the fact that JFK's brain has gone missing for decades. The US Government simply refuses to let the public see it. These metallic particles are proof that a special bullet -- which could not have come from the rifle that shot CE 399 -- was used in the JFK assassination. Thus, with your theory, Robert, we have significant ballistics evidence of a JFK conspiracy -- more than one rifle. Further, your theory can dispense with the old theory of a necessary shot to JFK's throat. Did I get that right? Regards, --Paul Trejo Hi Paul Yup, pretty close. The only thing I might disagree with is the rifle that fired CE 399 not being able to fire a frangible bullet. Of course, though, three times in six seconds is something entirely different. I've always believed the FMJ cartridge left in the chamber of C2766 was left there just to help us assume that all the fired bullets were FMJ, too. Frazier was an interesting subject. I caught him telling a few fibs and misconceptions to the WC, but in many ways I believe he was just as baffled as anyone else by the bullet that "disappeared" in JFK's chest, and that was the subject of such an extensive search at the Bethesda autopsy. What I believe to be one of the greatest and most overlooked clues are the chest x-rays of JFK that somehow managed to get "dirt" on them. It was pointed out that this "dirt" looked like fragments but was, in actuality, only dirt. This is precisely the evidence I would be looking for in a chest x-ray, if I suspected a frangible bullet.

Hi Tom I'm not quite sure what Craig is saying here. Is he stating that he believes there was alteration of the BYP's? Also, why does he not post his own responses?

Right, Robert, I had already made that connection between the particles that Bethesda Hospital staff had seen in JFK's brain and neck and the behavior of frangible bullets. Both you and Cliff had used the phrase, "dissolve" and I thought that was a technical term, so I echoed it -- probably out of context. My intended meaning was to "disintegrate". The existence and availability of frangible bullets in 1963 makes a significant difference to the way that CTers can interpret the WC testimony. Also -- the behavior of silencers (suppressors) known in 1963 makes a significant difference. The long-lost case of the missing bullets in the JFK CTs of the past half-century now seem to show light at the end of these tunnels. Regards, --Paul Trejo Hi Paul If what Lt. Richard Lipsey related to the HSCA about JFK's wounds, that being 1) a bullet entrance wound high on the back of JFK's neck with an exit below the larynx and 2) a bullet entrance wound in JFK's upper back with no exit wound, the only way to explain what Lipsey overheard from the Bethesda autopsy doctors is hypothesizing about frangible bullets being used in the assassination. No other type of bullet could enter JFK's right lung and stop partway through and not leave particles large enough to capture the attention of someone viewing the chest x-rays. (remember the "dirt" observed on the chest x-rays that was, of course, not dirt?).Also, only a frangible bullet, likely a crude early development of this bullet, could impact vertebrae in the neck without a) going right through them or totally destroying the vertebrae. As I pointed out earlier, further corroboration of frangible bullets being used is Humes' own observation of hundreds of dust like particles of metal seen in the x-rays of JFK's head. It cannot be stressed enough that no bullet, be it an FMJ, a soft point or a hollow point, will ever disintegrate into dust. The most mangled, broken up bullet I have ever seen, even if it is in several fragments, has NEVER turned to dust. This is the clear signature of a frangible bullet, as the cores of these bullets are made by compressing metal powder into a solid.

Hey Bob. I figure if we get one of those we'll be able to see two Marion Bakers running like madmen down the street to talk with four policemen on on the corner. (Just trying to interject a little humor here, folks.) -- Tommy The more the merrier! Those were the cheapest alternatives I could find. There are lots of the antique stereoscopic viewers on Ebay but the prices tend to be a bit higher. http://www.ebay.ca/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2050601.m570.l1311.R12.TR12.TRC2.A0.H1.Xstereoscopic.TRS0&_nkw=stereoscope+viewer&_sacat=0

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Folding-stereo-3d-stereoscopic-viewer-12-stereoviews-/220518974083?hash=item3357f48283:g:qhIAAOSw8w1X~L8c

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Glascope-Revolutionary-Stereoscope-3D-Stereo-Viewer-Egypt-Set-Stereoview-/222258124974?hash=item33bf9dd8ae:m:mHu975K29YrLGjunVDUJyHw

Here we are, boys. Cheap as it gets from Ebay. http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Stereoscope-Stereo-Viewer-Stereopticon-Parts-2-EYE-HOOD-MAROON-VELVET-STRIPS-/152264107245?hash=item2373a5e4ed:g:SxUAAOSwcwhVKFf- Edit: Oops, I read the ad a little more closely. This ad is for a replacement velvet strip that goes on a stereoscopic viewer, not the viewer itself. My bad.

Just curious Chris. Can you tell us more about this photo?

Hi Chris It just dawned on me that you might have been asking me if this was a suppressor OR a silencer. The two names are pretty much interchangeable, although the term suppressor is more realistic than silencer, as the sound is never completely silenced.

It's hard to say, Chris. but it definitely looks like a suppressor. The M16 flash eliminator can best be seen, in this photo, on the muzzle of the guy on our extreme left in the front row. A close up is shown here: As these soldiers appear to be in a jungle environment, the thing on the end of his barrel could be just an improvised rain cover to keep water from running inside of his barrel, although it seems odd he would be the only one so protective of his weapon. It very likely is a suppressor, and a similar AR-15 mounted suppressor can be seen here:

In my last post, I exceeded the number of images I was allowed to post. Here are the ones I deleted: 30-06 cartridge for M1 Garand semi-auto rifle on top, cartridge for M1 semi-auto carbine bottom. Both cartridges are loaded with .30 calibre bullets. Example of startle response, occurring within half of a second of stimulus, such as a very loud and sudden noise. Suppressor mounted on bolt action rifle.

"To bring the discussion back to Ashton Gray's thread about the JFK throat wound, I will note that given four custom Mannlicher-Carcano rifles, with some firing frangible bullets, we can continue to debate whether JFK's throat wound came from the front of JFK or from a fragment in the back of JFK's neck." Yes, it is good to come back to the original topic. On that note, do you know what one of the most interesting paradoxes of the assassination is? It is that a goodly number of the witnesses in front of the TSBD heard three shots, and also heard these three shots coming from the direction of the Grassy Knoll. And yet, what we can glean from the medical evidence tells us there were at least two and possibly three shots originating from behind the limo, with only the head shot originating from somewhere in front of the limo. Know how they did it? It's quite simple, really. This photo is the giveaway: If we are to believe the Zapruder film is unaltered, the Altgens 6 photo above, taken by photographer James "Ike" Altgens, was taken at the precise moment frame z255 of the Zapruder film was exposed. If JFK was first hit at z190, and if Zapruder's camera really did expose 18.3 frames per second, this means that the first shot was fired 3.55 seconds before this photo was taken. I don't know how much time you have spent around rifles being fired but, there is something unique about the M91/38 Carcano short rifle that makes the above photo quite impossible. When the M91/38 Carcano was designed, it was nothing more than an M91 long rifle with a barrel reduced in length. Every part of the action of the M91/38 short rifle is interchangeable with the action of the M91 long rifle. They both even shoot the same cartridge, which is quite unusual in the military world. For instance, take the American M1 Garand and the M1 carbine. M1 carbine semi-automatic carbine with 18 inch barrel M1 Garand semi-automatic rifle with 24 inch barrel (see next post for image of cartridges) 30-06 (.30 calibre) cartridge for M1 Garand top, .30 calibre cartridge for M1 carbine bottom While both rifles shoot a .30 calibre bullet, the designers of the M1 carbine took into consideration the shorter barrel of the carbine, and designed a cartridge with far less gunpowder in it. Consequently, like most carbines, the M1 carbine is never seriously thought of as a long range rifle. Most importantly, though, is the reduction in muzzle blast and muzzle flash. If the larger cartridge was fired in the shorter barrel, there would still be gunpowder burning outside the end of the muzzle, and the muzzle blast would be very loud. No such consideration was given to the Carcano short rifles and carbines, when the original 31 inch long rifle barrel was reduced to 17 inches in the carbines and 21 inches in the short rifles. No reduction in cartridge size was made, and the carbines and short rifles shoot the same cartridge as the long rifles do. Despite the efforts of WC apologists over the years to make readers believe the M91/38 short rifle has a very quiet muzzle blast, in order to accommodate the reports of many witnesses likening the first shot to a firecracker, quite the opposite is true. The technicians doing sound testing for the HSCA in Dealey Plaza were astounded that anyone could liken the report of C2766 to a firecracker, as they reported the muzzle blast to be painfully loud and startling, despite the noise of the motorcade and the crowd. Now, here is something else no one seems to take into consideration. Many people will shoot a rifle, or stand behind someone shooting a rifle, and come away remarking how painfully loud the muzzle blast is. However, standing behind the rifle, they are not getting the full effect of the muzzle blast, and have no idea just how loud it actually is. If you cam imagine this, think of a cone surrounding the path of the bullet, starting at the muzzle of the rifle. This cone would extend out about 45° from the path of the bullet; up and down and to either side. Everything forward of the rifle and within this cone would get the full effect of the muzzle blast of the M91/38, and to liken this sound to a firecracker is to liken a siren to a whisper. If LHO was pointing an M91/38 from the 6th floor of the TSBD at JFK just as JFK became visiblle from behind the tree, every single onlooker seen on the sidewalk in Altgens 6 would have been inside of this 45° cone of influence and would have been a mere 60-70 feet (20-23 yards) from the muzzle blast when LHO pulled the trigger. As the HSCA technicians observed, the sound would have been painfully deafening, and nothing like a firecracker at all. What is REALLY baffling is the complete lack of a reaction seen on the faces of the onlookers. Not a single one of them looks like they have just been exposed to one and possibly two (or three) deafening muzzle blasts. (see next post for image of startle response) This is what I would expect to be seeing. The interesting thing about startle reaction (startle response) to an unexpected and very loud noise is that it is mostly involuntary and almost instantaneous. "Reflexes[edit] There are many various reflexes that can occur simultaneously during a startle response. The fastest reflex recorded in humans happens within the masseter muscle or jaw muscle. The reflex was measured by electromyography which records the electrical activitiy during movement of the muscles. This also showed the latency response or the delay between the stimulus and the response. Recorded was found to be about 14 milliseconds. The blink of the eye which is the reflex of the orbicularis oculi muscle was found to have a latency of about 20 to 40 milliseconds. Out of larger body parts, the head is quickest in a movement latency in a range from 60 to 120 milliseconds. The neck then moves almost simultaneously with a latency of 75 to 121 milliseconds. Next, the shoulder jerks at 100 to 121 milliseconds along with the arms at 125 to 195 milliseconds. Lastly the legs responds with a latency of 145 to 395 milliseconds. This type of cascading response correlates to how the synapses travel from the brain and down the spinal cord to activate each motor neuron.[5]" Now that we know it would have been impossible for the onlookers to have been in the cone of influence of the muzzle blast, and not still be displaying startle responses in Altgens 6, what happened here, and how could the ear witnesses have heard three shots originating from the Grassy Knoll? The answer may lie in this line from your last post: "(A.) Morrow claims that during the summer of 1963 he customized four Mannlicher-Carcano rifles at the request of Tracy Barnes (who was passionate about the Bay of Pigs failure) and personally delivered them to David Ferrie in New Orleans." The question is, just how much did Mr. Morrow customize these four rifles, and what model of Carcano were they? Below is a photo of a suppressor mounted on a bolt action rifle, followed by a cutaway diagram of a similar suppressor: (see next post for image of rifle mounted suppressor) While the diagram shows a suppressor for a 9 mm pistol, the construction of a suppressor for a rifle is not much different. Basically, you have a tube that is either threaded onto or clamped onto the barrel of a rifle; sometimes requiring a gunsmith to remove the barrel, put it in a lathe and cut threads on the tip of the barrel.Inside of the suppressor are a series of cone shaped baffles. These baffles allow expanding hot gases from burning gunpowder to cool and expand, thus greatly reducing the volume of the muzzle blast of a rifle and helping to conceal the source of a rifle shot. The mounting of a suppressor on a 6.5mm Carcano M91/41 long rifle would not have been a great technological challenge for Mr. Morrow, if he had the gunsmithing expertise he claimed he did. However, a suppressor on a rifle shooting a supersonic bullet aids in concealing the source of the shot in another way. As the bullet is moving faster than the speed of sound, it breaks the sound barrier as it leaves the muzzle, creating a small sonic boom. It will continue making a sonic boom all the time it is travelling faster than the speed of sound, and people 300 yards down range will hear the same sonic boom as people standing 10 yards down range, even though both ear witnesses will think the sonic boom they heard is the only one made. It will only stop making a sonic boom once its velocity falls below the speed of sound. When the bullet passes by any vertical hard objects, such as a building, this constant sonic boom will be reflected off of these hard surfaces, and the echo will travel back to the source of the shot. As the first echoes would have returned to the witnesses in front of the TSBD immediately, and following echoes would have returned in a progression of echoes, the ear witnesses would have heard what sounded like a steady progression of noise coming from toward the Grassy Knoll. In other words, the use of suppressors on rifles behind the limo tricked witnesses into believing all of the shots came from the Grassy Knoll. This is why no one is displaying a startle response in Altgens 6, why the majority of witnesses in front of the TSBD heard three shots from the Grassy Knoll, and why there could have been only one shot from the front, that being the head shot. The throat wound was the result of a bullet entering the back of the upper neck.

Ashton, I see no thread-hijackers. There is a relevant debate going on here regarding the theme of your thread over the alleged entrance wound in the throat of JFK. In my layman's summary, Cliff Varnell claims that there was a throat wound from the front, and he cites as evidence Dr. Charles Crenshaw who was present at Parkland Hospital when JFK was admitted there. Even after the WC testimony, Dr. Crenshaw has appeared on news shows seen today on YouTube, claiming this certainty that this was an entrance wound, and that JFK was shot from the front. The disappearance of the bullet is explained by a dissolving, frangible bullet. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IinESpyR2U Robert Prudhomme, OTOH, claims that the dissolving, frangible bullet entered from the back of the neck, and only a fragment pierced the throat, making the appearance of an entry wound in the throat. I am not technical enough to decide between these two opponents -- but I can affirm that the debate continues to circle around your original theme. The arguments of the doctors and ballistics experts for the WC, namely, that a Mannlicher-Carcano bullet fragment was the likely missile of the JFK assassination, can be addressed by postulating multiple Mannlicher-Carcano rifles at the crime scene -- and this also remains relevant to the debate over the direction of the throat wound. If you still disagree, then I hope that Robert will start a new thread regarding frangible bullets and Mannlicher-Carcano rifles in the JFK assassination, and I will follow Robert in that thread. Regards, --Paul Trejo Just a reminder again, Paul, that frangible bullets do not "dissolve" inside the human body. I do not believe there is or ever was such a thing as a dissolving bullet although, as I am fond of saying, WTH do I know? The core of a frangible bullet begins life as shotgun shot (BB's), as in the case of the Glaser Safety Bullet, or metal powder, as in the case of the DRT Ammo frangible bullet. Both mediums are compressed into a solid and then inserted into a bullet jacket. When the bullets disintegrate in a wound, the core returns to its original form; either BB or metal powder. It is this disintegration and instant arrest of the frangible bullet that transfers all of the bullets' energy to surrounding tissue and does such an incredible amount of damage. However, the metal BB's or metal powder do not dissolve, and both would show up quite well on an x-ray. For example, the hundreds of dust like particles in the cranium x-rays of JFK that Humes observed, and the "many fragments" Jerrol Custer recalled seeing in the x-ray of JFK's neck that is not the x-ray of JFK's neck in the Archives.

*PLONK* Plenty more room for thread hijackers, disinformationists, anyone who believes in a magic bullet that can enter a throat directly behind a necktie knot without penetrating the knot, and anyone who believes in ghosts with invisible guns shooting invisible bullets from the front of the limousine while utterly surrounded by onlookers who never saw a single one of them. Ashton Gray *YAWN*

The interesting thing about the 6.5mm Carcano rifles, and I have stated this before many times, is that they were not all created equal. Contrary to popular belief, Carcano rifles were not all junk, and some of the Carcano long rifles were so accurate and well made, they were used by Italian shooting teams in international competitions, right up into the 1960's. Below is a photo of an M91/41 long rifle. This was the last model of Carcano ever produced, beginning production in 1941. This version of the M91/41, with its double set triggers, was not the version issued to front line Italian troops in WW II. This particular rifle was carefully crafted to be used in military target shooting competitions and would have been one of the most accurate Carcanos ever made. As you may or may not know, the rifling grooves inside of a rifle's barrel will leave a distinctive rifling pattern on a bullet fired through that barrel, and often this rifling patter left on a bullet can be useful in identifying what particular make and model of rifle the bullet was fired from. One of the identifying features of the rifling pattern left on a bullet are the width and depth of the grooves, as this may be unique to one particular rifle. Another feature, and the one I am going to focus on for the rest of this post, is the rate of twist of the rifling pattern left on the bullet. Rate of twist in riflings is defined as how much barrel length is required for the riflings to make a bullet do one complete rotation inside the barrel as it travels down the barrel; this number being expressed as a ratio. For example, heavier bullets need "tight" riflings in order to stabilize them, and the riflings can be as tight as 1:7 or 1:8. What this means is, to make one complete revolution inside the barrel, the bullet must travel 7 inches (or 8) down the length of the barrel. Lighter bullets require less spin, and often a twist of 1:10 to 1:12 is employed. As I said, different manufacturers have different ideas about riflings, and it is often possible to identify a rifle by measuring the width, depth and rate of twist of rifling marks left on a bullet. Prior to 1938, all Carcano rifles (including carbines) had a very rare and unique type of rifling known as "progressive" or "gain" twist. Instead of one continuous rate of twist ("standard" twist) for the entire barrel, the riflings began at the chamber at an extremely slow rate of twist, and gradually tightened on their way to the muzzle. It was an expensive and time consuming way of making riflings and, after 1938, all short rifles (Oswald's rifle) and long rifles were made with a standard rate of twist, while the progressive twist was retained in only the carbines. Pre-1938 M91 long rifle - progressive twist - beginning at 1:22.79, final rate of twist at muzzle - 1:7.94 All carbines (pre- and post-1938) Progressive twist - beginning at 1:15.3, final rate of twist at muzzle - 1:7.48 Post 1938 M38 short rifle (7.35mm calibre) - standard twist - 1:9.45 Carbines - shown above M91/38 short rifle (Oswald's) and M91/41 long rifle - standard twist - 1:8.47 The above listings show that, even within the Carcano family, a 6.5mm Carcano bullet can be traced to the model of rifle that fired it, just by determining the rate of twist from the rifling marks left on the bullet. However, if you look closely at this list, you will see there are two Carcanos (one the most accurate Carcano ever made, the M91/41 long rifle, and the other, the M91/38 short rifle, allegedly fired at JFK) that posses exactly the same rate of twist in their riflings of 1:8.47. In other words, if a bullet were fired from either of these two rifles, it would be impossible to tell which rifle fired it, just by looking at the rifling grooves left on the bullet. Can you see how this could have been advantageous to the conspirators? In my mind, there were no absolute guarantees everything would work as planned, and there was a very good chance that evidence, such as bullets, would end up in the hands of an investigator who might want to examine the evidence a bit too closely. Having a bullet with rifling impressions on it that were a mathematical match for C2766 would go a long way toward preventing an investigator from thinking there was more than one rifle involved.

Did you just ask us to "take a shot" at them? Are you referring to the "pun"dits here?

Hi Paul A lot of "high tech" ordnance and ammunition really isn't as complicated as it appears, and a guy handy with tools and cartridge reloading equipment can do some amazing things with ammo utilizing some pretty low tech ideas. I grew up on the Canadian Prairies in a town in southwest Saskatchewan called Swift Current, named after the swift current of the South Saskatchewan River just north of there. Like the majority of boys on the Prairies, I was in possession of a .22 calibre rimfire rifle by the time I was twelve years old. During the Great Depression in the 1930's (LONG before I was born) the government of Saskatchewan attempted to eradicate predators such as coyotes, wolves and foxes from the Prairies, and would pay a bounty for each animal turned in. As many farmers and townspeople were not doing very well in the Depression, and not eating on a regular basis, this bounty money was eagerly sought after; much to the detriment of the predator population. Inevitably, their numbers declined drastically and, as always happens when man upsets the natural balance, the population of the prey animals these predators depended on literally exploded. Photo of the public school I attended, built in 1914 and built to last! Still in use as far as I know. As well as jackrabbits, this population explosion included the Richardson ground squirrel; better know as the gopher, a smaller version of the American Prairie dog. Farmers hated them, not only for eating their crops but also for the constant digging they do in cultivated land. By the 1960's there was still a virtually endless supply of gophers, and we spent many summer hours snaring, trapping or drowning them out of their excavations with buckets of water packed from a dugout. Of course, as we grew older, we graduated to hunting them with .22 calibre rifles, using the .22 Short cartridges, .22 Short Rifle cartridges or the .22 Long Rifle cartridges; depending on what our budget allowed and also on whether or not the farmer was supplying the ammo or a possible small bounty. Slightly more expensive than the Short Rifle or Long Rifle cartridges were cartridges known as .22 Long Rifle Mushroom cartridges. Although economically out of our reach, we ended up with a box of these once from a generous farmer who wanted a horse pasture cleared of gophers. Close examination of these cartridges revealed they were merely a regular .22 Long Rifle cartridge with a small hole drilled into the nose of the bullet; making the bullet into a hollow point bullet. Remington .22 LR Hollow Point cartridges. These subsonic bullets were called "low noise" because, with the addition of a silencer on the muzzle of your .22 rifle, each shot was completely silent as the subsonic velocity of the bullet did not cause it to break the sound barrier, and scare all of the gophers underground with the first shot. Silencers were another thing relatively easy to make at home. Side cutaway view of .22 LR Hollow Point cartridge On the first shot with one of these bullets, one of my friends shot a gopher standing up on his back legs in the stomach, hitting no bones in the process. When we got to the gopher, we found a tiny entrance wound in his stomach, and 80% of his gastrointestinal tract hanging out of a large wound in his back. Sound familiar? We had never seen a standard .22 bullet inflict damage even close to this. We were instant converts, and we just had to have a steady supply of these incredible rounds. But, how could us poorboys overcome the prohibitive cost? Well, as you know, necessity is the mother of invention, and it didn't take long before we had our own factory set up on the workbench of one of my friend's father. His father had a small hand operated drill and, using a tiny drill bit, we set up a jig to hold the cartridge in place to allow us to drill a fairly straight hollow point into each of the bullets. When we tried them out, they worked just as well as the factory made hollow points. In fact, it seemed the ones that weren't drilled perfectly straight outperformed the factory made hollow points. We even tried such interesting variations as cutting an "X" into the nose of the bullet, using a broken piece of a jigsaw blade, which seemed to work quite well too but was a lot more work. The point I am trying to make here is that the knowledge of simple bullet modifications is not exclusive to Saskatchewan farmboys. When the Italian Government released half a million 6.5mm Carcano rifles in a great flood onto the American and European military surplus market, they also released vast quantities of surplus 6.5mm Carcano ammo. Although a great deal of it would have been of World War Two and earlier vintage, and somewhat unreliable, Italy kept quite a number of Carcanos after WW II, and continued manufacturing ammo for these rifles right into the early 1970's. As the Italians still had many indoor ranges, and the better models of Carcanos were being used in international shooting competitions, they also continued to make upgraded versions of the M37 Magistri frangible bullet cartridge, as a safe cartridge for indoor ranges. The same technique we used to make .22 hollow point bullets could be applied to the nose of a Magistri bullet, turning it into a very lethal hollow point frangible bullet. As frangible cartridges often showed up in batches of surplus Carcano bullets, I'm sure some of the more worldly members of the "Civilian Plot" you refer to had come across them before, and likely knew tricks for converting them that would have amazed us farmboys. Look again at the construction of the M37 Magistri. As I pointed out before, the jacket of this bullet is made from two pieces, joined at the seam seen near the top of the bullet. Also, this bullet had an unusually deep "cannelure", the groove seen where bullet and cartridge neck meet. I am willing to bet that, in a wound, this bullet jacket breaks into three pieces; at the forward seam and at the cannelure. Think really hard now about the head wound. How big were the pieces of the bullet jacket that were recovered?

Robert, I think many questions are receiving plausible answers here. Insofar as a frangible, dissolving bullet was available in 1963 to military experts -- especially field experts who lived and died based on their ballistics knowledge -- but was not generally known to medical workers, then we have one explanation for some of Humes' reported behavior at the JFK autopsy. Also, yes, I did mean to postulate that Gerry Patrick Hemming, Frank Sturgis and Loran Hall were among the key assassins. Gerry Patrick Hemming confessed to a role in the JFK assassination to A.J. Weberman, and I take that as a fact. Frank Sturgis not only confessed to a role -- he boasted about it. I take that as a fact. Loran Hall was in Dallas on 11/22/1963 with Gerry Patrick Hemming's rifle, which was handed over to the FBI before the day was over. I strongly suspect Loran Hall of a role. (I also believe Loran Hall was "Leonardo" at Silvia Odio's apartment, but she refused to ID him because he was terrorizing her, and she didn't trust the FBI to help her, or even believe her.) Hemming and Hall visited General Walker several times in 1963. After the race riots at Ole Miss in 1962, and after General Walker was acquitted for his role in January 1963, Walker publicly stated he would turn all his attention to Cuba. It was in this context, IMHO, that Walker encountered "Interpen" and the people I named above. (Others on Walker's team could have included Roscoe White and J.D. Tippit there in Dallas -- as well as Guy Banister and David Ferrie in New Orleans. Frank Sturgis moved in all these circles. Walker was also connected closely with Joseph Milteer. Two bonafide CIA rogues joined this Civilian Plot in the periphery, namely, David Morales and Howard Hunt, since we have their confessions.) So, Robert, what I hear you saying is that these Cuba Raid groups would have had knowledge of frangible bullets in 1963, and would have had access to them, because they had plenty of money from their rich underground resources (like Clay Shaw). The idea of a frangible bullet goes a long way toward explaining many of the mysteries of the JFK murder. Getting them in the hands of the Civilian Plot was feasible, in your scenario -- and the Parkland and Bethesda Hospital surgeons' likely ignorance about them also goes a long way toward explaining some of the most confusing WC testimony we encounter. We get all this without postulating a necessary frontal wound in JFK's throat -- as Ashton Gray has postulated. Not that there is no longer room for debate. Regards, --Paul Trejo I still think the question is, if we assume these mercenaries were the assassins, who actually supplied the weapons and ammunition for this murder. Was it the mercenaries themselves, or was it a much more sophisticated coordinating group above them? I should point out that a frangible bullet does not dissolve. The cores of modern frangible bullets are made from compressed or sintered metal powder. When the bullet disintegrates, the core returns to its powder state, but does not disappear, and should still show up on x-rays. I believe this goes a long ways in explaining the hundreds of dust like particles seen in the x-ray of the head. Lead is malleable, not brittle, and no full metal jacket bullet is going to break up into dust like particles. So, when did the game begin with the back wound? If evidence of a frangible bullet was seen as dust like metal particles in the head x-ray, why did the same particles not show up in x-rays of the lungs?

Cliff, I, too, am bothered about the Parkland Hospital testimony which wobbled due to a lack of completeness. Several Parkland medical staff reported seeing an entrance wound in the throat -- and yet they could not see a corresponding exit wound or retrieve any bullet in the throat. That's one problem. The next problem is that the same medical staff -- when browbeat by Arlen Specter and his SBT -- tended to change their stories to, "Well, I can't be sure," and some surgeons said they had seen exit wounds as neat and round as entry wounds, provided that only soft tissue had been penetrated. So, there was little resistance to the SBT theory, and little steadfast certainty even over an entry wound in JFK's throat. Of course, all this can easily be explained by the fact that JFK was in Trauma Room #1 for only 22 minutes before he was given the Last Rites. (Officially, from 12:38 until 13:00 hours.) For those full 22 minutes, JFK wasn't breathing, and so there was no time to work on anything else but restoration of breath and heartbeat, by all means possible, and even a full examination of wounds was bypassed in favor of restoring breath. Now, inside those 22 minutes, there were as many as a dozen people in the room with JFK, supporting each other in a medical hierarchy as best they could. There were indeed conflicting reports of the events. The administration of steroids, for example, was attributed to one surgeon and then to another. The order of the entry of medical personnel into the room changed from surgeon to surgeon. It was clearly a chaos. Now, Cliff, you say that the central question in the JFK assassination is this: "what happened to the rounds which caused the back and throat wounds?" I agree entirely. The rounds should have been found inside the victims or inside the JFK limousine. Only five tiny fragments were found inside the limousine (CE 567, CE 569 and CE 840). Next, you postulate, Cliff, that the record offers 2 possibilities: either (1) the rounds were removed prior to the autopsy; or (2) these were high tech rounds that dissolved inside the victim (which even the autopsy doctors at Bethesda had speculated). You note that Lifton & Horne are working on the first possibility, and that you are working on the second possibility. It seems to me that despite your disagreements with Robert Prudhomme, that this is a common thread linking your research -- a high-tech bullet that dissolves in the body figures strongly in both of your theories. So, my question to both you and to Robert is this: could mercenary soldiers like Gerry Patrick Hemming, Frank Sturgis and Loran Hall have had any access to these high-tech bullets in 1963, in your opinion? Regards, --Paul Trejo Hi Paul This is assuming these are the actual assassins. And I would imagine the people behind the assassination would have access to all of the latest high tech gadgetry being developed at the time. The interesting thing is that the frangible bullet, in a non-lethal form, has been around since the 1920's. Below are photos of the M37 "Magistri" frangible bullet and cartridge, developed for shooting the 6.5mm Carcano in 200-300 metre indoor ranges in the 1920's and 30's. As can be seen, the jacket of the bullet is made in two pieces. Inside the nose of the bullet is a small solid pellet made from lead or "maillechort". Behind this pellet, the majority of the jacket is filled with powdered material; the middle section powdered lead and the rear section sand. Upon impact with very solid material (steel, concrete, stone, etc.) this bullet will disintegrate into powder, making it very safe for indoor shooting as it will not ricochet. Essentially, the only difference between the Magistri indoor target bullet and a modern lethal frangible bullet is 1) the powdered core is compressed in the lethal bullet and 2) the lethal frangible bullets have a hollow point nose that makes them disintegrate travelling through soft tissue. If the lethal frangible bullet is within a wound (ie. head, chest, abdomen, etc.) when it disintegrates into a cloud of metal powder, the disintegration of this bullet wreaks utter havoc on surrounding tissue, creating a minimum 4 inch wound cavity. As the M37 has a jacketed nose and a small solid core at the tip, I see no reason why the M37 would not be capable of penetrating skull bone like any other solid bullet. It may or may not disintegrate as it passed through the brain. However, if a simple hollow point was made in the nose of the M37 with a 1/8 inch drill bit, it would become a hollow point bullet, not much different in construction than this lethal hollow point frangible bullet from DRT Ammo, seen below: Note the hollow point tip and compressed metal core. http://www.drtammo.com/DRT-Technology If the M37 Magistri was made into a simple hollow point bullet and fired at a human skull, I believe it would penetrate that skull, making a small entrance wound, and disintegrate well inside the skull with explosive force. Imagine how confused Humes would have been, seeing a wound track and wound cavity, but no bullet or fragments of a bullet.

It's a good thing we have someone on the forum who has an aptitude and keen eye for anatomy and anatomical structures. I for one would have never noticed some of those things. LOL Sandy. I think there are certain parties who prefer we do not look too closely at some of their "evidence".

Robert, In your opinion, would the military surgeons and technicians at Bethesda Hospital have been familiar with the field behavior of frangible bullets -- such that they might suspect that in their futile search for bullet fragments, that the bullet causing JFK's back and neck wounds might have been of the frangible variety? Regards, --Paul Trejo No, Paul, I seriously doubt anyone at that autopsy had likely even heard of a frangible bullet before. As far as I know, the first commercially available frangible bullet was the Glaser Safety Bullet, first marketed in 1974, although inventors had been working on frangible bullets long before the assassination. However, what we must do when looking through independent reports of the autopsy, such as supplied by Jerrol Custer and Richard Lipsey, is to examine the paradox of what is reported in the autopsy report with what these witnesses observed the autopsy doctors actually doing. For example, Humes tells us in the autopsy report that JFK's chest cavity and lungs were intact, with no damage or perforation from a projectile through the pleural lining, outside of a bruise to the upper portion (apex) of the right lung attributed to a bullet passing above the right lung. Yet Richard Lipsey tells the HSCA the autopsy doctors spent the better part of the autopsy dissecting chest and abdominal organs looking for a bullet or bullet fragments. Without an obvious entry through the pleura, and an equally obvious wound track downward through the lungs, would it not be illogical to be looking for a bullet in those areas, with no indication of a bullet passing through there? I don't know if you have ever had the opportunity to observe the evisceration of a lung shot game animal or not. If you have, you would know that a bullet, regardless of type or construction, makes a very obvious hole in the pleural lining entering the chest cavity, an equally obvious and unmistakeable wound track through the lungs. Between the shock wave the bullet makes and the hundreds of tiny and large blood vessels the bullet ruptures as it passes through, the wound track is a collection of blood clots and damaged lung tissue impossible to miss. If Humes did not see this in the upper right lung, why did he search so hard for a bullet below this point? At what point did Humes begin hiding the obvious?

Jerrol Custer, the Bethesda x-ray technician, stated in an interview with HSCA staff that the x-rays of JFK's neck he was shown were NOT the x-rays of the neck he recalled seeing, and that the neck x-rays he recalled showed "many fragments" in the vicinity of cervical vertebrae C3/C4. From this evidence, it is likely a bullet such as a frangible bullet, designed to break apart easily, was the kind of bullet that caused this wound; entering the upper neck just below the base of the skull. If you would read my post more carefully, you would see that I stated a fragment or component of this bullet or a particle of bone carried on from the impact with the vertebrae and exited JFK's throat. The lower bullet, if it was also a frangible bullet, would have entered JFK's right lung and stayed there; having disintegrated part way through the lung as it would be designed to do.