Robert Prudhomme

That's mighty weak, Bob. (As the wishy-washy, non-definitive excerpts of Hine's testimony below certainly indicate.)

And are you actually suggesting Mrs. Reid just lied her ass off in her testimony?

Emphasis is mine....

Mr. BALL. Mrs. Reid told us she came in alone and when she came in she didn't see anybody there.

Miss HINE. Well, it could be that she did, sir. I was talking on the phones...so I was busy with the phone.

Mr. BALL. From the time you walked into the room you became immediately busy with the phone?

Miss HINE. Yes, sir; sure was.

Dave

Think about it. The 2nd floor office was a 25' x 45' open room. Was Miss Hine so wrapped up answering telephones that she could be completely unaware of another human being in such a small space?

Mrs. Reid seemed eager to discuss the shooting with anyone she came across, including LHO, with whom she appeared to be completely unacquainted with.

"Mr. DULLES. Just one moment.

Mr. BELIN. Pardon me, do you have a question, sir?

Mr. DULLES. How many times do you think you saw Mr. Oswald during the period he was employed?

Mrs. REID. My goodness.

Mr. DULLES. Roughly.

Mrs. REID. It couldn't have been--

Mr. DULLES. Five times, 10 times?

Mrs. REID. I would say five times. At times I would go down to Mr. Truly's office for some business. I would see him across the floor, but he paid no attention to you and there were times, the few times, he ate lunch up there but he never talked to anyone.

Mr. DULLES. Never talked to anyone?

Mrs. REID. And he was usually reading, I noticed that.

Mr. DULLES. Did he seem to repel ordinary conversational attempts or didn't you try that?

Mrs. REID. I never did try it, I never did.

Mr. DULLES. You never tried it.

Mrs. REID. He seemed to be interested in what he was doing, I would never see anyone talking to him at all in the lunchroom so far as I can recall, not any time."

Do you see the problem here, Dave? Mrs. Reid is just dying to discuss the assassination with someone, even a total stranger. LHO ignores her, so why does she not turn to speak to Geneva Hine, the only other person in the room, someone she would obviously be very well acquainted with?

Hi Dave

Mrs. Reid tells a very convincing story, and she is well coached by Mr. Belin as she tells it. However, there is just one small problem with her story.

Where in this wide open one room office was Mrs. Reid hiding until Geneva Hine spotted her in a group of latecomers?

The 2nd floor office of the TSBD is one large open room, and Geneva Hine was already back answering phones in this office when she observed Mrs. Reid returning to the 2nd floor office in a group of five or six people.

Let us see what Miss Hine had to say about this:

"Miss HINE. And there was a girl in there talking on the telephone and I could hear her but she didn't answer the door.

Mr. BALL. Was the door locked?
Miss HINE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. That was which company?
Miss HINE. Southwestern Publishing Co.
Mr. BALL. Did you call to her?
Miss HINE. I called and called and shook the door and she didn't answer me because she was talking on the telephone; I could hear her. They have a little curtain up and I could see her form through the curtains. I could see her talking and I knew that's what she was doing and then I turned and went through the back hall and came through the back door.
Mr. BALL. Of your office, the second floor office?
Miss HINE. Yes; and I went straight up to the desk because the telephones were beginning to wink; outside calls were beginning to come in.
Mr. BALL. Did they come in rapidly?
Miss HINE They did come in rapidly.
Mr. BALL. When you came back in did you see Mrs. Reid?
Miss HINE. No, sir; I don't believe there was a soul in the office when I came back in right then.
Mr. BALL. Did you see anybody else go in through there?
Miss HINE. No, sir; after I answered the telephone then there was about four or five people that came in.
Mr. BALL. Was there anybody in that room when you came back in and went to the telephone?

396

Miss HINE. No, sir; not to my knowledge.
Mr. BALL. Did you see Mrs. Reid come back in?
Miss HINE. Yes, sir; I think I felt sure that I did. I thought that there were five or six that came in together. I thought she was one of those.
Mr. BALL. Mrs. Reid told us she came in alone and when she came in she didn't see anybody there.
Miss HINE. Well, it could be that she did, sir. I was talking on the phones and then came the policemen and then came the press. Everybody was wanting an outside line and then our vice president came in and he said "The next one that was clear, I have to have it and so I was busy with the phone.
Mr. BALL. From the time you walked into the room you became immediately busy with the phone?
Miss HINE. Yes, sir; sure was.
Mr. BALL. Did you see Oswald come in?
Miss HINE. My back would have been to the door he was supposed to have come in at.
Mr. BALL. Were you facing the door he is supposed to have left by?
Miss HINE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Do you recall seeing him?
Miss HINE. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Do you have any definite recollection of Mrs. Reid coming in?
Miss HINE. No, sir; I only saw four or five people that came by and they all came and were all talking about how terrible it was.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember their names?
Miss HINE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Who were they?
Miss HINE. Mr. Williams, Mr. Molina (spelling), Miss Martha Reid, Mrs. Reid, Mrs. Sarah Stanton, and Mr. Campbell; that's all I recall, sir."

If Mrs. Reid actually took the route up the front stairs to go back to the 2nd floor office, she and Miss Hine would have been within spitting distance of each other as Miss Hines stood in the hallway and called and shook the door of Southwestern Publishing Co. and Mrs. Reid crossed the hallway.

If Mrs. Reid did manage to get back to the office and encounter LHO before Miss Hine returned to the office, where did Mrs. Reid go after she encountered Oswald? Did she hide under a desk and wait for a group of people to come back to the office, and try to slip into that group unnoticed? The open office only measured about 25' x 45', and when Miss Hine stated there was no one in the office when she returned to her desk, I think she was telling the truth. If there was only Mrs. Reid and Miss Hine in the office together, don't you think Mrs. Reid would want to talk about the assassination? She certainly seemed eager to discuss it with Oswald, whom she barely knew.

The reason I am trying to find precisely where the decibel level of C2766 (130 decibels) was taken is that not everyone seems to think rifles are in the 130 dB range.

For comparison dB levels for some audible sounds are given below.

0-10dB Threshold of human hearing.

10-20dB Normal breathing, rustling leaves.

20-30dB Whispering at about 1.5 metres.

40-50dB Coffee maker, library, quiet office, quiet residential area.

50-60dB Dishwasher, electric shaver, office, rainfall, refrigerator, sewing machine.

60-70dB Air conditioner, alarm clock, background music, normal conversation, television.

70-80dB Coffee grinder, toilet flush, freeway traffic, hair dryer, vacuum cleaner.

80-90dB Blender, doorbell, heavy traffic, hand saw, lawn mower, ringing telephone, whistling kettle.

85dB Lower limit recommended for the wearing of hearing protection.

90-100dB Electric drill, shouted conversation, tractor, truck.

100-110dB Baby crying, boom box, factory machinery, motorcycle, subway train.

110-120dB Ambulance siren, car horn, leaf blower, walkman on high, power saw, shouting in the ear.

120-130dB Auto stereo, rock concert, chain saw, pneumatic drills, stock car races, thunder, power drill.

130-140dB Threshold of pain, air raid siren, jet airplane taking off, jackhammer.

150-160dB Artillery fire at 500 feet, balloon pop, cap gun.

160-170dB Fireworks, handgun, rifle.

170 -180dB Shotgun.

180 - 190dB Rocket launch, volcanic eruption.

http://www.eastcoastrip.org/did-you-know/infrasound

Does anyone know where to look for the records of the decibel testing of C2766 during the assassination re-enactment?

Do you think the SS agents turned because they heard a bullet whiz by? What does it sound like to have a high-speed bullet pass by?

I posted this earlier, but it seems to have vanished...

THE rifle, when fired as part of a re-enactment was recorded at 130 decibels. The typically accepted "level of physical pain" is considered to be 120-140db.

Hi Tom

When the muzzle blast of C2766 was recorded at 130 decibels, during the re-enactment, do you know where the person recording the sound was in relation to the muzzle of this rifle? In other words, was he behind the rifle, 90° to the side of the rifle, or within a 120° cone measured just forward of the muzzle?

I cannot seem to find any information on this, and the placement of testing equipment in relation to the rifle's muzzle is quite critical, as there is a massive difference in subjective sound levels, measured in decibels, between being behind a rifle fired, 90° to the side of the muzzle or just slightly ahead of the muzzle and within 60° of the path of the bullet, as were the majority of onlookers on Elm St.

I should add that 120 decibels is considered the "threshold of pain", and that every 10 decibel (dB) increase means a tenfold increase in sound. In other words, a 130 (dB) sound is 10 times louder than a 120 dB sound, and a 140 dB sound is 100 times louder than a 120 dB sound, etc. With its short barrel and cartridge designed for a long rifle, I would venture the recorded level of 130 dB for C2766 to be a bit low, unless the man recording the sound was nowhere near the muzzle of the rifle when it was fired.

If it was a camera and it was Oswald, what happened to the camera subsequently?

Good question. Either nobody knows or nobody is talking.

P.S. Your white mug idea is not bad.

Assume that Lovelady had the white object in hand and he raised it up.

Where/how high does the white object get raised to in relation to Lovelady's face? i.e. eyes, forehead, nose

Chris, you're a genius! You've done it again.

I'll take your challenge, when I find a little time. I think it will be enlightening.

Sandy,

I was wrong.

It appears the person in Weigman is a woman, holding a coffee mug, out in front of her mouth.

The interesting thing about this still, if we assume, for the moment, that PM is Oswald, is that Lovelady is one inch shorter than PM/Oswald and standing on the next step down in this still. As research has shown each of the TSBD steps to be roughly seven inches higher than the next one, the top of Lovelady's head should be eight inches lower than the top of PM/Oswald's head, if his head is one inch lower than PM/Oswald's head when they are on the same step.

As this is clearly not the case, and there is, to our perspective, perhaps a three or four inch difference, can we finally just accept that PM/Oswald is way at the back of the top landing, and Lovelady is at the very front of the landing? And that the perspective of the camera, lower down on the street, is completely thrown off by this, and height comparisons are impossible?

And for God's sake, can we just let go of the silly notion that PM is holding a Coke bottle and, by sheer fluke, only the base of the bottle is in sunlight, while his hands are in shadow? And that he can raise his hands up to his face, without moving the bottle base out of the sunlight? Or his hands into the sunlight?

Do you see now how a suppressed shot from the Dal-Tex Building could sound like it originated from the Triple Underpass?

Yes, I do.

I believe this is why so many of the witnesses stated the shots they heard were either from the TSBD or from down near the rail yard. When you think of it, it was a brilliantly executed plan that allowed for the escape of a shooter from the Dal-Tex Building.

Interesting. Do you have any other evidence that points to the use of the Dal-Tex building by a sniper?

I'll probably be booed for saying this, but I haven't discounted the possibility of James Files being one of the snipers. (I should note that I haven't yet put much time into studying Files' story.) His own involvement (if there was one) might contradict what your saying. But what he says about Charles Roselli shooting from the Dal-Tex building supports it.

Not really, except the Dal-Tex Building would make for a much better shot, with no trees in the way.

http://www.prayer-man.com/sniper-position-in-daltex-building-by-shell-hershorn/#

If there was any doubt as to the origin of the first suppressed shot, most witnesses would believe it came from above them or further down Elm St., as I believe was the intention. If the last shot was a frontal shot and it was unsuppressed, this would likely convince the witnesses that all of the shots had come from further down Elm St.

Why the conspirators would do this, if the plan was to frame a shooter on the 6th floor, is unfathomable in the context of normal thinking, just as the final shot from the front was unfathomable, as it clearly showed shooters in different locations. I believe the original plan was either nothing like the lone nut story, or the shooter that fired the final shot was, as Files claimed, only there as a last resort if everyone else missed.

How do you see the bottom if the bottle is held upright?

Something to think about. If PM was holding a Coke bottle, it would be held vertically in front of him. When he raised it to drink, it would be held horizontally. Wouldn't we see a rather longish glowing reflection when it was vertical, and a roundish glowing reflection, when we were looking only at the round base of the Coke bottle?

Robert, this is a good point. It depends on the volume of the fluid remaining in the bottle. If there was some half or third of volume remaining, the bottle could have been tilted, whilst in the position in front of Prayer Man's chest, just enough to expose the bottom of the bottle to the sun light.

Seriously, Andrej? Do you hold a bottle of Coke tilted on its side when it's out in front of you?

Do you see now how a suppressed shot from the Dal-Tex Building could sound like it originated from the Triple Underpass?

Yes, I do.

I believe this is why so many of the witnesses stated the shots they heard were either from the TSBD or from down near the rail yard. When you think of it, it was a brilliantly executed plan that allowed for the escape of a shooter from the Dal-Tex Building.

Something to think about. If PM was holding a Coke bottle, it would be held vertically in front of him. When he raised it to drink, it would be held horizontally. Wouldn't we see a rather longish glowing reflection when it was vertical, and a roundish glowing reflection, when we were looking only at the round base of the Coke bottle?

I like it.

The elbows are an even better match with the camera. imo

Interesting photo, Chris. His right eye appears to be closed, and his left eye is behind the viewfinder hood. Is it possible there was an opening in the hood he was looking through with his left eye?

Robert, if Prayer Man would hold a camera as the man on this picture, his left arm would have to move in parallel with his right arm, and the left hand would reach even slightly above the right hand. I am not sure that this picture would be an accurate representation of Prayer Man's gestures.

It is quite possible the TLR camera in PM's hands did not have the "peekaboo" viewfinder the camera above was equipped with. Most of them did not have this feature, requiring the photographer to take photos in this manner by sighting over the side of the camera. This would, of course, place PM's arms in a different location than the photographer above.

http://www.3106.net/photo/cam1045.htm

Just found this:

I like it.

The elbows are an even better match with the camera. imo

Interesting photo, Chris. His right eye appears to be closed, and his left eye is behind the viewfinder hood. Is it possible there was an opening in the hood he was looking through with his left eye?

Twin Lens Reflex camera. When the viewfinder is open, available light travels through the upper lens, reflects off of a 45° mirror and is seen by a person looking downwards into the viewfinder. Light also travels the opposite direction from the viewfinder side and is seen as a bright upper lens above.

While the traditional method of using this camera is by holding it at waist level and looking down into the viewfinder, this is difficult to do with moving objects or in a crowd. Many photographers held TLR cameras up to eye level and simply sighted along the side of the camera in these situations.

The Supersonic Crack

Any projectile moving through the air at a velocity greater than the speed of sound (332 to 340 m/s or 1,089 to 1,114 fps in dry, 18 C or 65 degree F air, depending on who one listens to) will create a supersonic crack. Temperature, humidity and atmospheric pressure variations play a role in raising or lowering the speed of sound by a small percentage. In a firearm which lacks a substantial muzzle report (being fired over an open field) the sound resembles the loud tearing of a bed sheet.

Two sounds are actually created, one from the front of the bullet, and one from the rear. Near trees and buildings the sound waves come back as a distinct crack or pop each time the speeding bullet passes some object with a vertical, reflective surface. Once the muzzle report has been diminished the supersonic boom becomes dominant. Curiously, the sounds will now appear to come from the target area, rather than the rifleman's position. Sound moves through our atmosphere at a relatively fixed rate. A sound wave will typically strike one ear a bit before the other.

The human brain is capable of detecting the difference in time between sound impacting one ear and then the other in an increment of as little as one/six-millionth of a second. With time and practice we soon learn to use this ability to pinpoint the source of a sound very accurately. Because a suppressed muzzle report is relatively quiet, the uninitiated will automatically home in on the loudest sound, which in this case is a sonic boom reflecting from the target area. The intense, sharp sound of the bullet's passage will seem much louder than the muzzle report to someone close to the flight path. Indeed, a rapidly moving .308 bullet will sound louder than a .22 LR pistol, to someone who is positioned a few feet from its flight path.

Smaller diameter bullets make less noise than larger diameter bullets. Supersonic is supersonic. A bullet traveling 366 m/s or 1,200 fps will make about the same noise as one traveling 1220 m/s or 4,000 fps. Projectiles that are .308 inch in diameter will be somewhat louder than .223 bullets. There is no technology which can remove the sound of a supersonic projectile, no matter what claims are made to the contrary.

http://www.silencerresearch.com/sound_suppressors_on_high_powered_rifles.htm

Do you see now how a suppressed shot from the Dal-Tex Building could sound like it originated from the Triple Underpass?

I understand what you are saying but, it is a fact that a truly silent shot from a suppressed rifle must be at a distance (often several hundred yards) at which the bullet is no longer travelling at supersonic speeds. This is, on one hand, the downfall of suppressing a high powered rifle and, on the other hand, the reason for suppressing a high powered rifle. If the bullet only made the "crack" as it was leaving the suppressed rifle, it would not be hard to locate.

The video I posted clearly demonstrates the "crack" from the bullet breaking the sound barrier, and the fact you can hear it for several seconds tells me you are hearing the outlying "cracks" as they reach the shooter.

So you think the SS agents turned because they heard a bullet whiz by? What does it sound like to have a high-speed bullet pass by?

I had a friend who served in a construction battalion during WWII in the Pacific. He told me that one day he was welding on the blade of a bulldozer, and because of the noise of the engine-driven welder, he couldn't hear much else. But he thought that he was working near a nest of bees...until one of his buddies had him get behind the dozer blade because those weren't bees, those were bullets from a sniper. [The sniper was eliminated and my friend wasn't wounded.] So the sound of a high-speed bullet at close range, when you can't hear the muzzle blast, apparently is much like the sound of a high-speed bee or wasp at close range.

Considering your friend would have made a large target and that he was not hit by any bullets, and that the Arisaka rifle was very accurate, it is possible the sniper shooting at him was several hundred yards away from your friend. At this range, the bullets would be travelling at less than the speed of sound, and no longer making a small sonic boom or "crack" as they passed by. In fact, the "buzzing" noise he described could even be the sound a bullet makes when it is tumbling after travelling so far and losing its gyroscopic stability.

So you think the SS agents turned because they heard a bullet whiz by? What does it sound like to have a high-speed bullet pass by?

I had a friend who served in a construction battalion during WWII in the Pacific. He told me that one day he was welding on the blade of a bulldozer, and because of the noise of the engine-driven welder, he couldn't hear much else. But he thought that he was working near a nest of bees...until one of his buddies had him get behind the dozer blade because those weren't bees, those were bullets from a sniper. [The sniper was eliminated and my friend wasn't wounded.] So the sound of a high-speed bullet at close range, when you can't hear the muzzle blast, apparently is much like the sound of a high-speed bee or wasp at close range.

The SS agents would have heard the buzz sound slightly before the pop of breaking the sound barrier, right? Because the bullet would have broken the sound barrier as it exited the rifle's barrel, and it would have taken on the order of tenth of a second for that sound to arrive. (Speed of sound is 1125 ft/s.)

So they would have heard a buzz-pop sound, I guess. Assuming they indeed did hear buzz sound.

BTW, if they did hear the buzz sound, that would support the believe of people like me that the first shot that hit Kennedy was the one to his back.

A pertinent question would be, were the two SS agents riding directly behind JFK (who both turned their heads back) more alarmed than the spectators because they heard the buzz? Or were they more alarmed because of their training and their sense of responsibility? Maybe one way to answer that is to see if other SS agents who would have herd the pop but not the buzz also turned their heads. If not, this would support the notion the the SS agents riding behind JFK did indeed hear the buzz and were responding to it, not the pop. And this would indicate that the shot was from behind... to JFK's back, not his neck.

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The bullet breaks the sound barrier when it leaves the muzzle of the rifle, but continues to break the sound barrier until it travels far enough that its velocity drops below the speed of sound. In the case of the 6.5mm Carcano M91/38, with a muzzle velocity of roughly 2200 fps, this would be several hundred yards from the muzzle.

Therefore, the "crack" of the bullet breaking the sound barrier is not heard only at the muzzle of a suppressed rifle, it is heard all along the path of the bullet until, of course, it drops below the speed of sound. This is why the only way for a sniper to truly silence a high powered rifle is to be far enough away from his victim that, by the time the bullet reaches the victim, it is travelling at subsonic speeds and completely silent, except for the sound of the bullet striking flesh.

This is the reason for silencing a high powered rifle in the first place. Not only does it silence the muzzle blast, masking the location of the shooter, it also spreads confusion amongst the witnesses, as each witness will hear the "crack" in a different location as the bullet goes by him. Witnesses further down the street, such as James Altgens, would not have heard the first silenced shot at all, as he was nowhere near the path of the bullet (assuming the first shot hit JFK in the back), and that is why he testified the first shot he heard was at the moment he took the Altgens 6 photo. This photo was taken at the same time frame z255 of the Zapruder film was exposed.

See how they did it now, and how they were able to spread confusion, and how they were able to make all those shots appear to be only three shots?

In this video, you can hear the sonic boom or "crack" over several seconds as the sound waves travel back to the shooter. Of course, the suppressor has completely eliminated the muzzle blast of this rifle.

He was a legend. It was watching his filmed interviews with witnesses that got me hooked the most on researching the assassination.

God bless Mark Lane, and may he be justly rewarded for a life of dedication to the truth.

The DPD considered the hand tests valid, Bob. The FBI decided they were invalid after Mark Lane revealed that the cheek test was negative. When asked why the tests were still performed, the FBI's Cortlandt Cunningham said it was to pressure people into confessing.

He was bluffing, however. The reality was that most lawyers, prosecution and defense, knew there were problems with the tests, with plenty of false positives and false negatives. As a result, the tests were normally introduced in court as supporting evidence, not primary evidence. This was a wise move, IMO. If they'd been convicting people purely on the tests, they would have to have released them in the late sixties when the tests were abandoned by the scientific community.

I think you are mistaken on this one, Pat. If you go back and read my posts, you will see why it is far more likely a person will have gunpowder residue on his hands after shooting a revolver than it is he will have GSR on his cheek after shooting a bolt action rifle. I'm sure the FBI knew this as well, and Mark Lane is merely attempting to take credit for making them reverse their decision.

I'll try to find the interview with the DPD detective. I think it might even have been with Will Fritz.

Hey Robert:

Portions of the Shel Hershorn Dal-Tex photo's were discussed a few years ago here on the Ed Forum. See the link below [if it works!]

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=2908

Thanks Gary.

Per Lt. JC Day, DPD took hand prints of BOTH of LHO's hands. Could the ink have caused the positive nitrates test? I believe it contains silver nitrate.

It's incredible that they would do the fingerprints before the paraffin tests.

I thought I read an account of an interview with a DPD detective once, who told the interviewer the police knew the nitrate test was totally inconclusive, but it was a powerful tool in dealing with an accused person. He said many accused people confessed at the mere mention of performing a nitrate test.

Could this be what they were attempting with Oswald, when it became apparent he had no intention of confessing?

For all we know, Lee Oswald could have been sitting in the shade on a tall stool, busily taking photographs for his alibi.

Precisely. I think it is only fair that we admit that, if the photo is too fuzzy to ID PM, it is also too fuzzy to tell whether or not PM is standing erect, or standing at the front or the rear of the top landing.