Robert Prudhomme

The H & L website states

In April, 1953 Dr. Renatus Hartogs interviewed (HARVEY) Oswald at the Youth House and described him as thin, malnourished, and reminiscent of children he had seen in concentration camps in Europe. http://harveyandlee.net/School/School.htm

The same webpage follows that claim with a

As this claim is not cited, could someone please provide the citation?

The same page follows with the Bronx Zoo photo taken just prior to Youth House. That kid is not malnourished and iirc, Hartogs actually described Oswald as "well built".

So... I really would love to know where the (non) quote, non cited statement from the H & L site comes from.

Anyone?

And you slag everyone else on this forum for cluttering up the front page with irrelevant crap?

This place is fast dealing itself out has having any relevance. It is just you and very small band of others giving it any credibility at all.

Otherwise it is just becoming a receptacle for doppelganger theories, and endless discussions about bunched shirts and Badge Man, topped off by whatever tabloid excrement Caddy has managed to scrape off the soles of his shoes.

Hostility to the physical evidence!

JOB #1 of the cover-up. suppression of the physical evidence.

Someone hip Mr. Parker to the fact that all murder cases start with examination of the physical evidence.

What happened to the bullets causing the back and throat wounds?

All the posers hate that question. .02% of research material addresses the central issue of the case.

They'd rather go chasing red herrings like Oswald...

I've actually tried presenting quite reasonable and, I believe, NEW theories as to what became of those two bullets; mostly the back wound.

Anyone remember "The Parallax View" with Warren Beatty from 1974?

[...]

Anyway, you disagree, what can I do? I don't have much more.

Clive,

Correct. I disagree.

I guess your whole point is that one of the two guys wearing khaki in front of the TSBD during the motorcade couldn't have turned to look at the TSBD in response to having heard a shot or shots coming from there. Ditto A. J. Millican and the black women next to him down on Elm Street.

--Tommy

Well, I haven't commented on this at all but the President has gone by them already, so for some there is not much use in continuing to watch the back of a head when there are other VIPs that they may recognise passing directly in front of them.

I don't see anything noteworthy with the Khaki guy either, he takes his eye of the motorcade for a second, as do many, many others all alone the parade route. He might have heard something sure, a pop, a bang, someone shouting something stupid, anything.

You have to look at Dorman again sometime Tommy and watch the lack of reaction on the south side there by the intersection, it completely supports this theory. Betzner is one we know and recognise, he heard the first shot he said immediately after he took his photo on Elm and yet he just stands there watching the limo with woman and children near him.

Isn't he supposed to at least look around and see if he himself is in harms way?

Anyway it is what it is, the films support it but it isn't about no one hearing anything and lying about it, in that regard I'd say many heard something but this is and my own point, they showed no outward signs of being scared of these sounds, these sounds later became shots.

Willis is another one we know well and claimed he recognised the first shot as gunfire, I am totally convinced that he, like everyone else directly opposite him, just stood there and made no move to protect himself or his family.

I have have no way of knowing what this really signifies but one firecracker followed by "two booms" that are obviously to everyone as gunfire is clearly out of the question.

Everything starts with the unmissable head shot, the reaction in the crowd starts there and spreads. Wiegman too sets off a minor chain of events outside the TSBD.

That's what the films say.

It get's worse.

At this point I'm even willing to believe the possibility that even that man and woman on the pedestal may have missed the whole thing, they certainly do not seem afraid of any sound they are alleged to have heard.

Now, how can you capture something on film like that but not be aware of it?

Hi Clive

Considering how loud a rifle report directly above them and pointed in their general direction would have been, don't you find it odd that there are no startle reactions visible on the faces of the bystanders, not even as late as the Altgens 6 photo?

...

I remember telling you guys *I* wrote it up - I was quite happy with my hard work - and that I had used some of the photos you guys had found of her found before I even joined that thread (and I also used photos I found of her grave marker and wedding announcement) to make her memorial. So yes, that's my handiwork.

Later! Time for lunch and finishing and posting my little project...

Linda,

if I had known it was yours at first, I would have not used the phrase "taking liberties" and I doubt Robert would have either, my sincere apologies to you. The way you present your work here speaks for itself and I thank you for continuing to share it and your thoughts with us.

I knew reasonably well how you made the connections to that being Calvary on film but I suppose it had something to do with it being presented on a website outside of the research community as fact that ever so slightly "irked" us.

My sentiments precisely, Linda. Without knowing you had written that memorial, I assumed that Calvery running a few feet behind Baker was a fact confirmed by a close friend or family member of Calvery's. It was a bit of a surprise to me when I saw you had written the memorial.

Paul

Are you saying there were three more witnesses on the south side of Elm St. that were removed from the Zapruder film?

As the FBI reports for these women were all written by the same agent on the same day, are you sure he didn't get mixed up and write "south" instead of "north"?

God, this forum has gone down hill in the last year.

Tommy,

If I had to guess, I'd say the name was Lee Harvey Oswald.

That's a guess.

No matter, there may have been two Lee Harvey Oswalds.

Jon,

Are you saying there may have been two boys who looked kinda alike and were about the same age and that they both had the legal name "Lee Harvey Oswald"? And that one of these boys was eventually murdered by Jack Ruby on 11/24/63, and the other one was his chosen doppelganger for ten or so years?

--Tommy

PLEASE.

Let's not go there.

My sentiments precisely, Mark.

Thomas

We don't have a theory yet. That seems to be what gets most of us in trouble around here. We develop a theory and then refuse to see any other arguments.

I prefer to keep asking questions, and let the theory develop over time.

P.S.

Has anyone ever identified Shelley on the steps?

For that to work, Calvery had to be up at the island within a few seconds of the last shot. Ditto for Lovelady and Shelley.

No, I would like to know exactly how much time elapsed between the two stills. From what I can see in the first still, Lovelady is standing on the upper steps, quite relaxed, and, like most people around him, does not appear to realize anything has gone seriously wrong with the motorcade.

I want to know how many seconds he and Shelley have to go from this relaxed state to being 25 steps down the Elm St. extension after, of course, running out to the concrete island and conversing with Gloria Calvery, who will need a few seconds to run up the street first.

P.S.

Why guess? Why not work out the exact time?

Art could barely believe his eyes when he got to the house. Phelan wheeled out a mobile chalkboard. He then proceeded to draw on it something entirely new to Art: the jet effect.

That would be the effect that works only with melons (after many trials, under very specific conditions), but fails with cononuts.

http://jfkfacts.org/assassination/fifty-plus-one-the-unfinished-jfk-story/#comment-670586

They added insult to injury: not only did they murder our president but until today they claim that he was a melon head.

"It is also known as the “Edison Method”, how the incandescent bulb was invented. Ole’ Thomas tried every material (horse hair, woods, etc., etc.), until he eventually found one which did burn, but not too fast: tungsten."

"I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work."

Thomas A. Edison

here's what i think:

Claims 2nd floor coke when

Off came in

To 1st floor had lunch

Out with Bill Shelley in front

the salient part of fritz's notes mean: Oswald claims he had lunch on the first floor and then was out in front of the TSBD with Bill Shelley (on the steps) . The important part (based on what you'll see next) is the last line.

then add this to it:

Mr. BALL - Who was with you?

Mr. LOVELADY - Bill Shelley and Sarah Stanton, and right behind me...

Mr. BALL - What was that last name?

Mr. LOVELADY - Stanton.

Mr. BALL - What is the first name?

Mr. LOVELADY - Bill Shelley.

Mr. BALL - And Stanton's first name?

Mr. LOVELADY - Miss Sarah Stanton.

Mr. BALL - Did you stay on the steps

Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.

Mr. BALL - Were you there when the President's motorcade went by

Mr. LOVELADY – Right.

​I believe that Lovelady is cut off before he can say the words "Lee Oswald"

​this not only accounts for some of the alterations made to the Altgens photo, it also means that police evidence proves that both Lee Harvey Oswald and Bill Lovelady were at the doorway at the same time when Kennedy was shot, because they both identified Bill Shelley, who was standing in the doorway with them.

at least that's the way i see it. its' also interesting to see how punning on the words first name and last name could cause some confusion

Hi Martin

This is the most literal translation of Fritz's cryptic notes, makes just as much if not more sense than the other interpretations, and does not require shifting of any words from the original four lines. If only Fritz had used the odd punctuation mark, like a comma or semi-colon.

I, too, have looked at Lovelady's testimony, and wondered what he might have said if Ball had not cut him off so quickly. In truth, Frazier was actually directly behind Lovelady. However, Lovelady might easily have said, "Bill Shelley and Sarah Stanton, and right behind me was Wesley Frazier, and to his right was Oswald. Oh sh*t! Did I say Oswald?"

*Hearing goes off the record as WC lawyers pummel Billy Lovelady*

Oh please, please, please do not let this thread degenerate into a Harvey and Lee feud.

I'm wondering how much time elapsed between this still

and this still

Clive,

Regarding your statement about "the other man" in post # 168,

I'm convinced that "the other man" is Lovelady because (among other things), you can see his distinctive combed-up-in-the-front hairdo in about half of the frames of the low-resolution gif you posted.

Shelley circled in red:

--Tommy

That is definitely Shelley, looking very sour (unhappy?) about being led to give his statement; or maybe that was just his natural expression.

This photo put me in mind of something Gary Mack wrote regarding Prayer Man. I believe it was his contribution to the "PM is Anyone but Oswald" campaign.

"On Sept. 19^, 2013 Gary Mack wrote: The Prayer Man question has probably been answered. I recently sent the Couch and Darnell frames to Buell Frazier and asked what he thought. First, he wouldn’t confirm himself being on the top step because the image isn’t clear enough. He then re-confirmed that Lovelady and Shelley were out on the steps with him, just as he has always said, but he couldn’t confirm Shelley, either, due to the image quality.

I guess the 6th Floor Museum doesn't have the photo of Shelley in a suit, eh?

Found it.

Just below PM, a man is seen rising up or lifting his head up, presumably after leaning over to speak to the person below him.

Is this Lovelady?

A poster by the name of Mandrake over at the ROKC forum has come up with a different and very interesting interpretation of the same passage from Fritz's notes.

"I think the notes should be read like this...

Do you think it was deliberately ambiguous.?

Not necessarily, Jim. I think we have been trying so hard to deep six the second floor encounter, it might have made us blind to any other scenarios.

Imagine this. During questioning, Oswald is asked about officer Baker, and tells his interrogators he was on the second floor getting a Coke when Baker came in, having just left the front entrance, and knowing he must have left before Baker came into the building. If the next question was "Where were you just before that?", Oswald would answer he was having lunch out in front with Bill Shelley.

Oswald likely would have gone up to the 2nd floor by the front staircase. If he was taking his time, he could have been seen through the 2nd floor lunch room door by Baker as Oswald traversed the small hallway just outside the lunch room, passing from right to left, from Baker's perspective.

All of this means that Baker did not enter the TSBD as soon as he arrived at the steps, although not a great deal of time probably elapsed before he did; perhaps a minute or two. This would give Molina and Frazier time to re-enter the building, and would explain why neither of them saw Baker enter. If Pauline Sanders lingered a bit longer than these two, she would have seen Baker enter, as her FBI affidavit states.

This would also give Shelley and Lovelady time to cross the street, listen to Gloria Calvery for a few seconds, and be 25 steps down the Elm St. extension before looking back to see Baker and Truly ascending the steps.

The only stretching of the truth required is to have Baker tell the WC that he entered the TSBD immediately after arriving at the steps, instead of lingering out front until Oswald, Molina and Frazier had gone inside. If Baker was convinced of Oswald's guilt anyways, he might not even think hewas doing anything wrong by slightly embellishing the times.

Seriously, it may all have happened almost the way everyone said it did. (emphasis on the word "almost")

In addition to getting a coke, another plausible reason for Oswald's going up to the second floor, after the shots, would be to go to a window up there and get a better view of what was going on. Just sayin'. Otherwise, he must have been the only person on the front steps to stop watching the goings on because he was ... thirsty.

Why would any ex-Marine and "defector" to the U.S.S.R. want to go inside the building after the shots, and risk being confused with the assassin?

--Tommy

There seems to have been a number of TSBD employees, including Molina and Frazier, who did not waste any time going back into the TSBD. You can see a number of them going up the steps in the Darnell/Couch film. And Frazier was not only thirsty, he went down into the basement and ate his lunch.

Good points, Robert.

Who do we see wearing a coat, tie, and probably a hat on the top step (behind Frazier) in Couch / Darnell? He looks broad-shouldered.

Molina or Shelley?

--Tommy

Could you post the close up you're looking at, Thomas?

I wish I could find the close up of the steps in the Darnell/Couch film. You can quite plainly see a man bent or crouched down on the steps, as if he was talking to someone below him. He then is seen to rise up before the camera pans away. He also looks suspiciously like Lovelady.

Does anyone know where this close up film is?

Do you think it was deliberately ambiguous.?

Not necessarily, Jim. I think we have been trying so hard to deep six the second floor encounter, it might have made us blind to any other scenarios.

Imagine this. During questioning, Oswald is asked about officer Baker, and tells his interrogators he was on the second floor getting a Coke when Baker came in, having just left the front entrance, and knowing he must have left before Baker came into the building. If the next question was "Where were you just before that?", Oswald would answer he was having lunch out in front with Bill Shelley.

Oswald likely would have gone up to the 2nd floor by the front staircase. If he was taking his time, he could have been seen through the 2nd floor lunch room door by Baker as Oswald traversed the small hallway just outside the lunch room, passing from right to left, from Baker's perspective.

All of this means that Baker did not enter the TSBD as soon as he arrived at the steps, although not a great deal of time probably elapsed before he did; perhaps a minute or two. This would give Molina and Frazier time to re-enter the building, and would explain why neither of them saw Baker enter. If Pauline Sanders lingered a bit longer than these two, she would have seen Baker enter, as her FBI affidavit states.

This would also give Shelley and Lovelady time to cross the street, listen to Gloria Calvery for a few seconds, and be 25 steps down the Elm St. extension before looking back to see Baker and Truly ascending the steps.

The only stretching of the truth required is to have Baker tell the WC that he entered the TSBD immediately after arriving at the steps, instead of lingering out front until Oswald, Molina and Frazier had gone inside. If Baker was convinced of Oswald's guilt anyways, he might not even think hewas doing anything wrong by slightly embellishing the times.

Seriously, it may all have happened almost the way everyone said it did. (emphasis on the word "almost")

In addition to getting a coke, another plausible reason for Oswald's going up to the second floor, after the shots, would be to go to a window up there and get a better view of what was going on. Just sayin'. Otherwise, he must have been the only person on the front steps to stop watching the goings on because he was ... thirsty.

Why would any ex-Marine and "defector" to the U.S.S.R. want to go inside the building after the shots, and risk being confused with the assassin?

--Tommy

There seems to have been a number of TSBD employees, including Molina and Frazier, who did not waste any time going back into the TSBD. You can see a number of them going up the steps in the Darnell/Couch film. And Frazier was not only thirsty, he went down into the basement and ate his lunch.

Do you think it was deliberately ambiguous.?

Not necessarily, Jim. I think we have been trying so hard to deep six the second floor encounter, it might have made us blind to any other scenarios.

Imagine this. During questioning, Oswald is asked about officer Baker, and tells his interrogators he was on the second floor getting a Coke when Baker came in, having just left the front entrance, and knowing he must have left before Baker came into the building. If the next question was "Where were you just before that?", Oswald would answer he was having lunch out in front with Bill Shelley.

Oswald likely would have gone up to the 2nd floor by the front staircase. If he was taking his time, he could have been seen through the 2nd floor lunch room door by Baker as Oswald traversed the small hallway just outside the lunch room, passing from right to left, from Baker's perspective.

All of this means that Baker did not enter the TSBD as soon as he arrived at the steps, although not a great deal of time probably elapsed before he did; perhaps a minute or two. This would give Molina and Frazier time to re-enter the building, and would explain why neither of them saw Baker enter. If Pauline Sanders lingered a bit longer than these two, she would have seen Baker enter, as her FBI affidavit states.

This would also give Shelley and Lovelady time to cross the street, listen to Gloria Calvery for a few seconds, and be 25 steps down the Elm St. extension before looking back to see Baker and Truly ascending the steps.

The only stretching of the truth required is to have Baker tell the WC that he entered the TSBD immediately after arriving at the steps, instead of lingering out front until Oswald, Molina and Frazier had gone inside. If Baker was convinced of Oswald's guilt anyways, he might not even think hewas doing anything wrong by slightly embellishing the times.

Seriously, it may all have happened almost the way everyone said it did. (emphasis on the word "almost")

Fritz did not actually take notes during the interrogation of Oswald. Instead, he wrote his notes several days after the assassination, and it is still a mystery as to why they were made to appear hastily written. Perhaps Fritz was taking flak about not having any record of the interrogation, and wanted to have something to show.

Nonetheless, let's assume, for this thread, that everything Fritz wrote was an accurate record of what he heard.

The line (or lines) that interests me most contains the following:

"claims 2nd Floor coke when

off (officer?) came in

to 1st fl (floor?) had lunch

out with Bill Shelley in

front"

or

"claims 2nd Floor coke when off came in to 1st fl had lunch out with Bill Shelley in front"

or

"Oswald claims he was on the 2nd floor purchasing a Coke when the officer came into the 1st floor. He also claims he had lunch out in front, on the steps, with Bill Shelley."

The boys at ROKC putting their heads together for a little bit of analytical brainstorming about the Back Yard Photos, with some very interesting observations and conclusions.

http://www.reopenkennedycase.org/apps/forums/topics/show/13242989-back-yard-photography?page=1

Hope I don't get chastised for posting a link to this thread.

"Shelley said in his affidavit that he encountered her on the "island" a few seconds after the assassination."

Once again, you have not done your research. Shelley does not say in his affidavit how long after the last shot he ran across to the concrete island. He also stated, in his affidavit, he had no idea where the shots came from.

Yes, for all we know, several minutes may have elapsed before he spoke with Gloria Calvery. He might then have proceeded down the Elm St. extension OR he might have gone back into the TSBD, just as he stated he did in his affidavit.

The biggest problem you have with believing Lovelady and Shelley can be seen walking to the rail yard in Darnell/Couch is it requires you to cherry pick information from their affidavits and WC testimonies, and completely ignore other evidence found in the same places. Or, you just make things up, such as Shelley stating he ran across to the concrete island a few seconds after the assassination.