Robert Prudhomme

Here's another one for you to ponder.

When the FBI received C2766, they gave it over to their firearms expert, SA Robert A. Frazier who, along with a couple of colleagues, took the rifle to a range and did some shooting tests with it. Some of the results they obtained were quite remarkable. In fact, the word "unbelievable" comes to mind, and I would defy anyone to reproduce the results they obtained. For instance, they found C2766 to be shooting a few inches high at 15 yards, and also a few inches high at 100 yards. Any of you with any firearms experience will know that a rifle shooting a few inches high at 15 yards will be shooting 3-4 feet high at 100 yards. But, they fooled the Warren Commission, and everyone else, it seems. And that's all that really matters, right?

Anyways, the next group to get the rifle was the Army and, according to them, shims had to be added to the scope mount to make the rifle shoot accurately.

Here is a close up photo of the scope and mount on C2766. Take a good look at it, and tell me where you would add shims to correct an elevation problem.

Why don't we all ignore Duncan, like we did with DVP? That seemed to shut him up for a while.

another possible anomaly:

Look at the scope in the Alyea film and then compare it to this:

http://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/pojfkwhiteslides04053.jpg

I see what appears to be a rubber eye protector on the scope in the image above - I don't see it at all in the Alyea film.

For a quicker comparison, this is a smaller version of the photo posted by Chris:

This is a frame from the Alyea clip also posted by Chris. It is superimposed on top of the above photo for comparison:

Above photo, resized to depict scopes at equal size, with Alyea frame on the right:

To my eye, the scope on the left appears to have the rubber eyepiece (or dust cap?) that Chris mentions. However, the scope on the right, from the Alyea clip appears to be a bright, shiny, knurled cylinder that would be rotated to focus the scope. This portion of the scope is a bright silver throughout the clip with a dark ring at the very end of the scope.

Tom

No, you do not focus a scope by turning the eyepiece, at least not on that toy scope. Sorry to say it but, it is the same eyepiece on both scopes.

Hey Bob,

Thanks for clarifying. I wonder if Lutz was actually "under oath" or if it was a "statement" so he could blatantly lie without repercussion.

Either way might this:

IF you attempted to load a cartridge into the chamber by hand, you will find, with the cartridge base ahead of the extractor claw, it will be impossible to even close the bolt, as the placing of the cartridge ahead of the bolt face adds to the total length of cartridge and bolt. And, if you try to force it, you will have another problem; that being trying to remove the cartridge from the chamber.

Explain my observation:

As I had pointed out before, the bolt, as observed in the Alyea clip posted earlier, seems to be pulled to the rear about an inch. This is indicated by the distance from the back of the bolt to the rear of the scope above it and by the bolt handle which is resting a little to the rear of the stock cutout that would allow it to lie flat. In the video the bolt handle protrudes outward. One inch to the rear it cannot lie flat against the stock therefore the bolt is neither fully closed nor secure.

again the Alyea edited clip:

That would make sense. The en bloc clip could still be in the magazine while this was going on, too, and have fallen out later on (or been removed).

If this is what Fritz did, he stood a very good chance of snapping the tip of the extractor claw off. This is a common occurrence with Mauser actions and ham-fisted inexperienced shooters trying to load single cartridges.

Something else to remember about Carcanos. As the trigger cocks when the bolt is opened, it takes more force to open the bolt than on a rifle such as a .303 Lee Enfield. If the bolt and receiver on C2766 were not cleaned and lubricated regularly, this would add to the problem, and it is very likely the bolt could come to rest in a partially open position, without sliding open or closed by itself.

If you guys really want something to think about, look at this photo:

This is a Carcano rifle (likely an M91/38 judging by the rear sight) with a scope mounted in the identical fashion as C2766.

A little known fact about C2766 is the necessary modification in its scope mounting to allow a clip of bullets to be loaded into the magazine. There are two adjustment knobs on the 4x18 Ordnance Optics scope; one for adjusting windage (side to side) and one for adjusting elevation (up and down). As the diagram below shows, scopes normally have the windage adjustment knob on the right side of the rifle (bolt handle side) and the elevation adjustment knob on the top of the scope.

If the scope had been mounted on C2766 with the windage knob protruding from the right side, the shooter could not have loaded the en bloc clip into the magazine. So, what happened was, the person mounting the scope turned the scope 90° to the left, placing the elevation knob on the left side and the windage knob on the top. Can you imagine how puzzling this would be to someone trying to sight this rifle in? Did Klein's include a note with their mail order Carcanos, explaining the configuration of the scope?

Here is another less known photo of the rifle being brought to DPD, without the strap in the way of the magazine.

Another view of the scope. I believe what looks like a rubber eye piece is merely the back end of the scope.

"I wonder if Lutz was actually "under oath" or if it was a "statement" so he could blatantly lie without repercussion."

Lying or just the likely fact he never shot a Mauser or Carcano before?

Hey Bob,

Thanks for clarifying. I wonder if Lutz was actually "under oath" or if it was a "statement" so he could blatantly lie without repercussion.

Either way might this:

IF you attempted to load a cartridge into the chamber by hand, you will find, with the cartridge base ahead of the extractor claw, it will be impossible to even close the bolt, as the placing of the cartridge ahead of the bolt face adds to the total length of cartridge and bolt. And, if you try to force it, you will have another problem; that being trying to remove the cartridge from the chamber.

Explain my observation:

As I had pointed out before, the bolt, as observed in the Alyea clip posted earlier, seems to be pulled to the rear about an inch. This is indicated by the distance from the back of the bolt to the rear of the scope above it and by the bolt handle which is resting a little to the rear of the stock cutout that would allow it to lie flat. In the video the bolt handle protrudes outward. One inch to the rear it cannot lie flat against the stock therefore the bolt is neither fully closed nor secure.

again the Alyea edited clip:

That would make sense. The en bloc clip could still be in the magazine while this was going on, too, and have fallen out later on (or been removed).

If this is what Fritz did, he stood a very good chance of snapping the tip of the extractor claw off. This is a common occurrence with Mauser actions and ham-fisted inexperienced shooters trying to load single cartridges.

I thought I'd read it somewhere - from the HSCA firearms panel, testimony of Lutz (emphasis mine):

Mr. LUTZ. This rifle can be loaded in two ways. If an individual wanted to insert a single cartridge, a separate clip would not be required. The bolt would be opened. Normally the rifle would be pointed down or in some way so that the cartridge could be fed in by hand into the chamber area of the rifle. Then the bolt would be closed on that cartridge and you would be able to fire the rifle with a single round.

The normal procedure to load the rifle with more than one round would be to insert a number of cartridges, one through six, in the clip, in this case a brass clip. They are inserted into this and it acts as a retainer or a holder for the cartridges. They are then inserted into the open area by pushing it down. The bottom of the bottom cartridge is forcing the follower all the way to the bottom. It pushes it down and is forced to the extreme bottom and goes into a locked position allowing you then to push the bolt handle forward stripping the first cartridge from the top of the clip and inserting it into the chamber area of the rifle.

I hate to be critical but, this is a perfect example of how "educated" city folk can be so easily taken in by a so-called "expert". Another example of an "expert" who was full of crap right up to the eyeballs was the so-called FBI firearms "expert" SA Robert A. Frazier.

I thought I'd read it somewhere - from the HSCA firearms panel, testimony of Lutz (emphasis mine):

Mr. LUTZ. This rifle can be loaded in two ways. If an individual wanted to insert a single cartridge, a separate clip would not be required. The bolt would be opened. Normally the rifle would be pointed down or in some way so that the cartridge could be fed in by hand into the chamber area of the rifle. Then the bolt would be closed on that cartridge and you would be able to fire the rifle with a single round.

The normal procedure to load the rifle with more than one round would be to insert a number of cartridges, one through six, in the clip, in this case a brass clip. They are inserted into this and it acts as a retainer or a holder for the cartridges. They are then inserted into the open area by pushing it down. The bottom of the bottom cartridge is forcing the follower all the way to the bottom. It pushes it down and is forced to the extreme bottom and goes into a locked position allowing you then to push the bolt handle forward stripping the first cartridge from the top of the clip and inserting it into the chamber area of the rifle.

Lutz is full of crap. While there are some rifles that it is possible to push a cartridge into the chamber and close the bolt behind it, the Carcano is not one of them.

Shown below is the face of a Carcano bolt:

On the bottom of the bolt face can be seen something called an "extractor claw", whose sole purpose is to remove the empty cartridge from the chamber after firing. As the bolt moves forward to pick up a cartridge from the magazine, the cartridge gets bumped up out of the magazine and the spring loaded "elevator bar" pushes the base of the cartridge up into the bolt face. If everything goes correctly, the cartridge base is tucked neatly into the bolt face, with the extractor claw seated into the groove at the base of the cartridge, and the cartridge is loaded into the chamber by what the Mauser people referred to as "controlled feed".

I could not find a good photo of a Carcano with a cartridge in the bolt face but I found a photo of a German Mauser K98 which possesses virtually the same style of action.

Unknown make of rifle with Mauser action. See how the groove at the base of the cartridge is seated onto the extractor claw.

IF you attempted to load a cartridge into the chamber by hand, you will find, with the cartridge base ahead of the extractor claw, it will be impossible to even close the bolt, as the placing of the cartridge ahead of the bolt face adds to the total length of cartridge and bolt. And, if you try to force it, you will have another problem; that being trying to remove the cartridge from the chamber.

Years ago, I owned a bolt action rifle made by the Midland Gun Co. of Birmingham, England. It was chambered for .308 cartridges and equipped with a Mauser action. As the .308 cartridge is somewhat shorter than other military cartridges, I came to learn that it did not function all that well in the Mauser action. What would happen is that, as the bolt was pushing the cartridge forward out of the magazine, instead of coming upwards smoothly as the nose of the cartridge rode up on the ramp, it would bump too abruptly; causing the cartridge base to miss the extractor claw. As this left the cartridge AHEAD of the extractor claw, without me knowing it, I would try to close the bolt and, of course, it would not close. In fact, the cartridge would jam in the chamber, and I used to have to keep a cleaning rod with me so I could push the cartridge back out from the muzzle of the barrel.

This is the reason more modern rifle bolts, such as those made by Remington, while keeping the Mauser forward locking lugs, changed from controlled feed to a spring loaded extractor claw. This type of action allows you to hand load a cartridge into the chamber and close the bolt behind it, as the spring loaded extractor claw will snap over the cartridge base as it moves forward.

"So the 'shooter' could indeed have put 4 bullets in the clip, inserted the clip, and fired his 3 shots. Or if he did not have a clip, he could have

loaded one bullet at time for each of the 3 shots, loaded a 4th and then decided not to fire it. My understanding is that no clip was listed
in the inventory which is no surprise."

Loading single cartridges into a Carcano is not feasible. As the bolt face of the Carcano bolt moves forward, it picks up a cartridge and the rimless base of the cartridge gets tucked into the extractor claw as the cartridge moves upward. This makes it possible to remove the spent cartridge after firing. If the cartridge were inserted into the chamber first, and you the attempted to close the bolt behind it, the cartridge base would be ahead of the extractor claw, instead of being tucked inside the claw. The bolt would not close.

"I believe that Prayer Person's sleeves are rolled down. How else to explain the (barely perceptible in the top photo) dark line just above his / her wrist, and the fact that this darkness extends up his / her arm until it reaches the darker (in the shade) part of the sleeve?"

Wrist watch and long sleeved t-shirt under dark shirt with rolled up sleeves?

P.S.

You seemed to have adopted MacRae's "Prayer Person" rather easily.

Oswald was PM therefore PM was a man.

That's all there is to the so-called gender issue.

Also, PM's extremely short haircut was not really in fashion for women in 1963. And how many women rolled the sleeves of their coats up to their elbows?

After scrutinizing Bill Shelley's WC testimony more closely, it turns out he did not actually see Baker and Truly enter the TSBD.

"Mr. BALL - How did you happen to see Truly?

Mr. SHELLEY - We ran out on the island while some of the people that were out watching it from our building were walking back and we turned around and we saw an officer and Truly.
Mr. BALL - And Truly?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Did you see them go into the building?
MMr. SHELLEY - No; we didn't watch that long but they were at the first step like they were fixin' to go in.
Mr. BALL - Were they moving at the time, walking or running?
Mr. SHELLEY - Well, they were moving, yes.
Mr. BALL - Were they running?
Mr. SHELLEY - That, I couldn't swear to; there were so many people around."

This contradicts the testimony of Billy Lovelady below:

"Mr. BALL - By the time you left the steps had Mr. Truly entered the building?

Mr. LOVELADY - As we left the steps I would say we were at least 15. maybe 25. steps away from the building. I looked back and I saw him and the policeman running into the building."

Something on your mind, Brian?

bump

This thread is the place to post the many obvious indications that Prayer Man is indeed a male.

Feel free to list it all below.

P.S.

Years ago, I had a Ford pickup with a New Process 435 in it.

Now, c'mon you guys, can't you see Mr. MacRae is trying to put forth a serious theory here?

*snicker*

LOLOLOL!!! That's it Dunc? That's all you've got???

Another brilliant contribution to this thread from Stiletto Bob

If that's the best you can come up with, I would refrain from criticizing the intelligence of other members, slick.

LOLOLOL!!! That's it Dunc? That's all you've got???

Someone please refresh my memory for me. How tall were Lovelady and Shelley?

Oh look, MacRae, I can see a head scarf, earrings and a necklace, too!

In that case Prudhomme, I respectfully suggest that you stop looking in the mirror.

Sorry, Dunc, I don't understand what you are saying. Could you be a little more specific? Are you suggesting to this forum that I am a cross dressing transvestite?

Oh look, MacRae, I can see a head scarf, earrings and a necklace, too!

[...]

Anyway, you disagree, what can I do? I don't have much more.

Clive,

Correct. I disagree.

I guess your whole point is that one of the two guys wearing khaki in front of the TSBD during the motorcade couldn't have turned to look at the TSBD in response to having heard a shot or shots coming from there. Ditto A. J. Millican and the black women next to him down on Elm Street.

--Tommy

Well, I haven't commented on this at all but the President has gone by them already, so for some there is not much use in continuing to watch the back of a head when there are other VIPs that they may recognise passing directly in front of them.

I don't see anything noteworthy with the Khaki guy either, he takes his eye of the motorcade for a second, as do many, many others all alone the parade route. He might have heard something sure, a pop, a bang, someone shouting something stupid, anything.

You have to look at Dorman again sometime Tommy and watch the lack of reaction on the south side there by the intersection, it completely supports this theory. Betzner is one we know and recognise, he heard the first shot he said immediately after he took his photo on Elm and yet he just stands there watching the limo with woman and children near him.

Isn't he supposed to at least look around and see if he himself is in harms way?

Anyway it is what it is, the films support it but it isn't about no one hearing anything and lying about it, in that regard I'd say many heard something but this is and my own point, they showed no outward signs of being scared of these sounds, these sounds later became shots.

Willis is another one we know well and claimed he recognised the first shot as gunfire, I am totally convinced that he, like everyone else directly opposite him, just stood there and made no move to protect himself or his family.

I have have no way of knowing what this really signifies but one firecracker followed by "two booms" that are obviously to everyone as gunfire is clearly out of the question.

Everything starts with the unmissable head shot, the reaction in the crowd starts there and spreads. Wiegman too sets off a minor chain of events outside the TSBD.

That's what the films say.

It get's worse.

At this point I'm even willing to believe the possibility that even that man and woman on the pedestal may have missed the whole thing, they certainly do not seem afraid of any sound they are alleged to have heard.

Now, how can you capture something on film like that but not be aware of it?

Hi Clive

Considering how loud a rifle report directly above them and pointed in their general direction would have been, don't you find it odd that there are no startle reactions visible on the faces of the bystanders, not even as late as the Altgens 6 photo?

Robert,

Well I guess that proves it. No shots were fired from the TSBD.

--Tommy

On the contrary, Thomas. Shots may very well have been fired from the TSBD AND the Dal-Tex Building. The question to ask is, what kind of shots were fired?