Robert Prudhomme

"So, Jim, according to you, there was NO WAY IN HADES that Baker's "third or fourth floor" remark in his Day 1 affidavit could have POSSIBLY been just a simple mistake, right Jim? That was impossible, right? He MUST have been lying when he later confirmed it was the second floor? Is that how you see it? Gees"

DVP, you continually make stupid comments like this, and feign surprise when we don't accept your logic.

A MISTAKE???? For Pete's sake, he only went up ONE floor! How could he possibly believe he had arrived at the 4th floor??

And you call Jim D. a clown. If anyone belongs in the circus, it's you, Davey.

I've been reading the testimony of Dr. Pierre Finck over the past couple of days. Speaking before the HSCA, with questions coming from other doctors, he briefly mentions the lung area damage...but doesn't give any real details, and changes directions on a dime when the topic is mentioned. The main thing I got out of his HSCA testimony was that the autopsy doctors were ORDERED not to dissect the wounds in the torso. Quite odd for an autopsy, in my opinion... While the cause of death was most obviously the head wound, one would think that it would be prudent to dissect any other wounds that might have helped determine whether the "theory," that there was only a single shooter firing from above and behind, could be established beyond a reasonable doubt.

Robert, I think your theory has "legs"...but beyond that, my knowledge is quite limited. I haven't seen any xrays of JFK's chest, so I can't speak of that which I haven't seen.

Hi Mark

Interesting that the autopsy doctors would say they were ordered not to dissect the wounds in the torso, yet they removed the organs in the torso. Did they keep their eyes closed as they removed the lungs?

As I said before, the x-rays of JFK's chest would not reveal much, as Jerrol Custer told the ARRB the lungs and heart were removed prior to his taking x-rays of the chest.

"Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe as to President Kennedy's condition on arrival at the hospital?

Mr. HILL. The right rear portion of his head was missing. It was lying in the rear seat of the car. His brain was exposed. There was blood and bits of brain all over the entire rear portion of the car. Mrs. Kennedy was completely covered with blood. There was so much blood you could not tell if there had been any other wound or not, except for the one large gaping wound in the right rear portion of the head."

Testimony to the WC by Secret Service Agent Clinton J. Hill, 1964

I've always wondered what became of the rear portion of JFK's head that Hill saw lying in the rear seat of the car. This is the only time I ever see it mentioned.

Robert,

The limo was brought back to DC aboard an AF C-130. According to SA Sam Kinney, on the flight back to DC he personally discovered a large part of the "rear part" of JFK's head lying on the back seat "exactly where Clint Hill said it was." Kinney further states that he brought this large skull fragment back to DC in the pocket of his suitcoat. He then turned it over to his "good friend" Admiral George Berkley. I've often wondered where it went from there...

Tom

As DVP would say, Kinney must have "mis-remembered" discovering a large part of the rear of JFK's head on the back seat, "exactly where Clint Hill said it was". For that matter, Hill must have "mis-remembered" seeing the back of JFK's head on the rear seat, as well as the large hole in the back of JFK's head where it came from.

Sure an awful lot of "mis-remembering" going on that day.

I love this forum. As soon as anyone challenges one of the accepted "facts" in this case (ie. the "shallow" back wound on JFK) he is met with complete and utter silence.

It's not just a matter of thinking outside of the box, you have to know where the box is to begin with.

Posted Today, 02:43 AM

"I've read all that several times. I just wanted to point out that there is no mystery about why he grabbed his throat, it's because a bullet had just gone through it.

But I will add, that I think he was hit in the back with a bullet that didn't penetrate very far, probably a dud and it likely fell out or was taken out before the autopsy, while all the other modifications were going on. As far as your frangible bullet theory, could have happened though you would think a lot more damage would have shown up."

I will respond to your post in the new thread, "The T3 back wound".

I deleted the other thread on the back wound, as requested by the member who started that thread.

So any discussion can now be directed here.

Thank you, Mark.

:"When the discourse turns weird the weird turn pro." -- Hunter S. Thompson, more or less.

From da Bug's RH, pg 170-1

<quote on>

In the small alcove of the autopsy room at the Bethesda Naval Hospital, the acting chief of radiology, Dr. John Ebersole, clips the last

of the x-rays into a light box. N.othing. No bullet. The president's entire body has been x-rayed and still the doctors have been unable

to determine what happened to the bullet that struck his back.

"Where did it go?" someone asks.

The doctors have no idea. A discussion ensues about what might have happened to it. Someone suggests the possibility that a soft-nosed

bullet struck the president and disintegrated. Others contemplate that the bullet could have been "plastic," and therefore not easily seen by

x-rays, or that is was an "Ice" bullet, which had dissolved after contact. None of the suggestions made much sense, but then neither did the

absence of a bullet. FBI agent James Sibert decided to call the FBI laboratory and find out if anyone there knew of a bullet that would

completely fragmentize He managed to reach Special Agent Charles L. Killion of the firearms section of the lab, who said he never heard of

such a thing. <quote off>

Looks like Killion was a big fat xxxx.

From the Church Committee testimony of blood soluble weapon developer Charles Senseney, pg 166:

http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/church/reports/vol1/pdf/ChurchV1_6_Senseney.pdf

<quote on>

Senator Baker: Your principle job with the DOD, I take it, was to develop new or exotic devices and weapons; is that correct?

Mr. Senseney: I was a project engineer for the E-1, which was type classified and became the M-1. They were done for the Army.

Senator Baker: Were you an Army employee?

Mr. Senseney: I am an Army employee. I still am.

Senator Baker: But in the course of your employment by the Army, you made your work product and developments available to the CIA,

to the FBI, and to anyone else.

Mr. Senseney: I think the only other ones that possibly looked at the display was US Customs.

Senator Baker: Anyone else?

Mr. Senseney: Not to my knowledge. There could have been.

Senator Baker: Did you ever have contact with anyone else about special devices, anybody at the White House, the IRS, at the DEA,

or the DIA, any of these other agencies? There are about 60 agencies of Government that do either intelligence of law enforcement

work.

Mr. Senseney: I am sure most all of those knew of what we were doing; yes.

Senator Baker: Did you have any other customers?

Mr. Senseney: To my knowledge our only customer was the Special Forces, and the CIA, I guess.

Senator Baker: Special Forces meaning Special Forces of the Army?

Mr. Senseney: That is correct.

Senator Baker: And the FBI?

Mr. Senseney: The FBI never used anything. They were only shown so they could be aware of what might be brought into the

country. <quote off>

The money shot: " I am sure most all of those knew of what we were doing; yes."

Once Jerrol Custer testified to the ARRB that the heart and lungs had been removed from JFK's chest PRIOR to Custer's arrival with the x-ray equipment, I believe the mystery of the "disappearing" bullet had been solved.

That doesn't preclude the possibility JFK was hit in the back with a blood soluble round.

And there were two wounds with disappearing bullets.

The throat shot entered, didn't exit, no round recovered during the autopsy.

They weren't allowed to touch the throat.

No, you are correct. Both your scenario and the one I propose are distinct possibilities, and both have evidence to show either may have occurred. Unfortunately, with so much of the medical evidence missing or altered, it is unlikely that either of us will ever be proven correct.

It is interesting to note that Custer also testified that the x-rays of JFK's neck he claims to have seen showed many small fragments in the vicinity of vertebrae C3/C4.

:"When the discourse turns weird the weird turn pro." -- Hunter S. Thompson, more or less.

From da Bug's RH, pg 170-1

<quote on>

In the small alcove of the autopsy room at the Bethesda Naval Hospital, the acting chief of radiology, Dr. John Ebersole, clips the last

of the x-rays into a light box. N.othing. No bullet. The president's entire body has been x-rayed and still the doctors have been unable

to determine what happened to the bullet that struck his back.

"Where did it go?" someone asks.

The doctors have no idea. A discussion ensues about what might have happened to it. Someone suggests the possibility that a soft-nosed

bullet struck the president and disintegrated. Others contemplate that the bullet could have been "plastic," and therefore not easily seen by

x-rays, or that is was an "Ice" bullet, which had dissolved after contact. None of the suggestions made much sense, but then neither did the

absence of a bullet. FBI agent James Sibert decided to call the FBI laboratory and find out if anyone there knew of a bullet that would

completely fragmentize He managed to reach Special Agent Charles L. Killion of the firearms section of the lab, who said he never heard of

such a thing. <quote off>

Looks like Killion was a big fat xxxx.

From the Church Committee testimony of blood soluble weapon developer Charles Senseney, pg 166:

http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/church/reports/vol1/pdf/ChurchV1_6_Senseney.pdf

<quote on>

Senator Baker: Your principle job with the DOD, I take it, was to develop new or exotic devices and weapons; is that correct?

Mr. Senseney: I was a project engineer for the E-1, which was type classified and became the M-1. They were done for the Army.

Senator Baker: Were you an Army employee?

Mr. Senseney: I am an Army employee. I still am.

Senator Baker: But in the course of your employment by the Army, you made your work product and developments available to the CIA,

to the FBI, and to anyone else.

Mr. Senseney: I think the only other ones that possibly looked at the display was US Customs.

Senator Baker: Anyone else?

Mr. Senseney: Not to my knowledge. There could have been.

Senator Baker: Did you ever have contact with anyone else about special devices, anybody at the White House, the IRS, at the DEA,

or the DIA, any of these other agencies? There are about 60 agencies of Government that do either intelligence of law enforcement

work.

Mr. Senseney: I am sure most all of those knew of what we were doing; yes.

Senator Baker: Did you have any other customers?

Mr. Senseney: To my knowledge our only customer was the Special Forces, and the CIA, I guess.

Senator Baker: Special Forces meaning Special Forces of the Army?

Mr. Senseney: That is correct.

Senator Baker: And the FBI?

Mr. Senseney: The FBI never used anything. They were only shown so they could be aware of what might be brought into the

country. <quote off>

The money shot: " I am sure most all of those knew of what we were doing; yes."

Once Jerrol Custer testified to the ARRB that the heart and lungs had been removed from JFK's chest PRIOR to Custer's arrival with the x-ray equipment, I believe the mystery of the "disappearing" bullet had been solved.

What if the autopsy doctors had already been told what type of bullet had entered JFK's back, and this discussion about "ice bullets" and such was merely a show for the FBI agents and other witnesses present at the autopsy?

No, I'd be embarrassed to think such a thing.

The autopsists put on a little show?

Researcher, please!

Are you aware that the x-ray tech at the autopsy, Jerrol Custer, testified to the ARRB that JFK's chest organs (lungs, heart) were removed prior to Custer taking x-rays of the chest, and when Custer and his assistant were not present, and that Custer believed an extremely limited number of people were present when these organs were removed?

Did Sibert and O'Neil witness the removal of the chest organs?

They didn't write it up if they did.

I concede the point -- perhaps the round was removed prior to the autopsy witnessed by Sibert & O'Neill.

Cliff

I have a theory about the back wound, and the bullet that caused it. You see, I believe SA Sibert was on the right track when he phoned to find out about a bullet that would "almost completely fragmentize". Unfortunately, he was taken in enough by Humes' act concerning the "shallow" back wound to be able, in his mind, to follow to a logical conclusion what effect a bullet that would "almost completely fragmentize" would have in a wound.

Such a bullet is called a "frangible" bullet. It is constructed usually of a copper alloy jacket with a core made from compressed powdered lead, in a heat process known as "sintering". If not sintered, the powdered lead (or other metal) can be bonded together with a glue. Whatever the method, the bullet is designed to enter soft tissue (or a skull) making only a small entrance wound.

A lethal frangible bullet also has a hollow point on its nose, and this hollow point is key to making this bullet disintegrate after travelling only 2 or 3 inches in soft tissue. Once it enters semi- liquid tissue (lung, brain) the semi-liquid fills up the hollow point and, due to immense hydraulic pressure inside the nose caused by the velocity of the bullet, exerts an enormous pressure on the compressed powdered metal core. Long before the bullet can exit the other side of the chest (or skull), it will disintegrate into a cloud of metal powder that comes to an instant stop inside the wound.

This sudden stop and transfer of 100% of the bullet's energy to surrounding tissue is completely devastating, and likely had the effect of breaking every pumonary artery in the top of JFK's right lung. If JFK appears to be choking at z224, it is because he likely was. He had not only just lost 50% of his breathing capacity with the collapse of his right lung, there was also likely blood quickly flowing through the bronchi into his left lung and impairing its ability to transfer oxygen.

While a frangible bullet could be explained away, in a head wound, as a full metal jacket bullet that behaved oddly and broke up, such was not the case with the back wound. The long slender FMJ 6.5mm Carcano bullet is very stable, and capable of tremendous penetration in flesh. An FMJ 6.5mm Carcano bullet entering JFK's back at 2000 fps, at the level of T3, was more than capable of going through JFK (exiting midway down his sternum), the jump seat and Connally, and possibly having enough legs to still wound Kellerman.

If JFK appears to be choking at z224, It's likely because he had been shot in the throat.

Seriously, you read that entire post, and that is the only comment you can come up with?

I'm just thrilled that you were able to get so much from this thread.

in one of the doctor's testimonies to WC, Humes, i think, he describes the flap as being held "forward toward the scalp" even while he was describing the gaping rear wound, and it sounded very much to me like he was saying that this flap was large enough to have covered that wound -

he admitted that the finger in the other rear head pic was his and said that the flap would have fallen away if not held in place - i'm under the impression that the wound is being "hidden" perhaps by the flap AND by not releasing existing pictures of the wound with the flap out of the way. easy deceit by negligence, instead of even having to "doctor" the photos. or perhaps a combination of both.

both the WC interviewer and Humes points out the small, white piece at the hairline (more visible in the other pic of Ks head and somewhat visible in this one) and both wondered what it was, as part of a wound (i think Humes said he'd worried about that little piece for part of the day or something) or not.

Kellerman also describes the wound in the same place, of course (as do many others) along with the second entrance wound, finger's width in diameter. which goes to distinctly separate the two wounds in size and location.

and then in another similar angle they point out an obvious entrance hole right in the calic there, which doesn't sound to me to be in the area Kellerman described, and doesn't seem to be visible here. am i misremembering this "entrance hole?"

"Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe as to President Kennedy's condition on arrival at the hospital?

Mr. HILL. The right rear portion of his head was missing. It was lying in the rear seat of the car. His brain was exposed. There was blood and bits of brain all over the entire rear portion of the car. Mrs. Kennedy was completely covered with blood. There was so much blood you could not tell if there had been any other wound or not, except for the one large gaping wound in the right rear portion of the head."

Testimony to the WC by Secret Service Agent Clinton J. Hill, 1964

I've always wondered what became of the rear portion of JFK's head that Hill saw lying in the rear seat of the car. This is the only time I ever see it mentioned.

I can cite the medical evidence showing JFK had a serious pulmonary condition in his right lung, known as a tension pneumothorax (collapsed lung), if anyone wishes to see it.

[...]

I'm asking because it's nutty to think Marrion Baker saw anyone OTHER than Lee Oswald on 11/22/63 on the SECOND FLOOR. That's a FACT confirmed by Roy S. Truly.

Is Truly a l-i-a-r too, Tommy?

A trained observer like a police officer who mistakes a 5' 9" / 5' 10," 135-pound man for a 165-pound man is either incompetent or a prevaricator, David.

Which do you prefer?

Robert Prudhomme has recently shown that Baker didn't run up the TSBD front steps in the Darnell film, but Truly testified that he followed Baker through the front door.

To nip this argument in the bud, yes, David, I believe that Baker and Truly prevaricated about their "Oswald encounter."

--Tommy

Also, Baker seemed to have difficulty recalling whether he saw a man on the 2nd floor or the 4th floor.

Baker to self: "Lemme see now, we done run up one storey from the Main floor. I reckon we must be on the 2nd floor. Wait a minute, maybe it's the 4th floor. Oh hell, I never was no good at cipherin'."

Such a frangible bullet would be an excellent choice for an assassination, if your shooters were good enough to only make head shots. Following total disintegration of the bullet, there is little left, save for a few pieces of copper jacket, to allow a forensics team to ID the bullet.

Frangible bullets also have the advantage of disintegrating if they strike hard objects made of steel or concrete. This would have kept collateral damage to a minimum, as in the case of James Tague.

What if the autopsy doctors had already been told what type of bullet had entered JFK's back, and this discussion about "ice bullets" and such was merely a show for the FBI agents and other witnesses present at the autopsy?

No, I'd be embarrassed to think such a thing.

The autopsists put on a little show?

Researcher, please!

Are you aware that the x-ray tech at the autopsy, Jerrol Custer, testified to the ARRB that JFK's chest organs (lungs, heart) were removed prior to Custer taking x-rays of the chest, and when Custer and his assistant were not present, and that Custer believed an extremely limited number of people were present when these organs were removed?

Did Sibert and O'Neil witness the removal of the chest organs?

They didn't write it up if they did.

I concede the point -- perhaps the round was removed prior to the autopsy witnessed by Sibert & O'Neill.

Cliff

I have a theory about the back wound, and the bullet that caused it. You see, I believe SA Sibert was on the right track when he phoned to find out about a bullet that would "almost completely fragmentize". Unfortunately, he was taken in enough by Humes' act concerning the "shallow" back wound to be able, in his mind, to follow to a logical conclusion what effect a bullet that would "almost completely fragmentize" would have in a wound.

Such a bullet is called a "frangible" bullet. It is constructed usually of a copper alloy jacket with a core made from compressed powdered lead, in a heat process known as "sintering". If not sintered, the powdered lead (or other metal) can be bonded together with a glue. Whatever the method, the bullet is designed to enter soft tissue (or a skull) making only a small entrance wound.

A lethal frangible bullet also has a hollow point on its nose, and this hollow point is key to making this bullet disintegrate after travelling only 2 or 3 inches in soft tissue. Once it enters semi- liquid tissue (lung, brain) the semi-liquid fills up the hollow point and, due to immense hydraulic pressure inside the nose caused by the velocity of the bullet, exerts an enormous pressure on the compressed powdered metal core. Long before the bullet can exit the other side of the chest (or skull), it will disintegrate into a cloud of metal powder that comes to an instant stop inside the wound.

This sudden stop and transfer of 100% of the bullet's energy to surrounding tissue is completely devastating, and likely had the effect of breaking every pumonary artery in the top of JFK's right lung. If JFK appears to be choking at z224, it is because he likely was. He had not only just lost 50% of his breathing capacity with the collapse of his right lung, there was also likely blood quickly flowing through the bronchi into his left lung and impairing its ability to transfer oxygen.

While a frangible bullet could be explained away, in a head wound, as a full metal jacket bullet that behaved oddly and broke up, such was not the case with the back wound. The long slender FMJ 6.5mm Carcano bullet is very stable, and capable of tremendous penetration in flesh. An FMJ 6.5mm Carcano bullet entering JFK's back at 2000 fps, at the level of T3, was more than capable of going through JFK (exiting midway down his sternum), the jump seat and Connally, and possibly having enough legs to still wound Kellerman.

What if the autopsy doctors had already been told what type of bullet had entered JFK's back, and this discussion about "ice bullets" and such was merely a show for the FBI agents and other witnesses present at the autopsy?

Are you aware that the x-ray tech at the autopsy, Jerrol Custer, testified to the ARRB that JFK's chest organs (lungs, heart) were removed prior to Custer taking x-rays of the chest, and when Custer and his assistant were not present, and that Custer believed an extremely limited number of people were present when these organs were removed?

Did Sibert and O'Neil witness the removal of the chest organs?

Cliff

We have been told no bullet was recovered from the back wound. Does this make it true?

I was actually hoping to continue the discussion here.

As Calvery said in her statement, she was watching the motorcade with Westbrook, Hicks and Reed. I think we should try to establish which person is actualy Calvery in al the photographic evidence.

Gary Murr, on 30 Jun 2015 - 10:07 AM, said:

One should also be aware in reading this bumped thread that the WCC did not make 6.5mm Carcano ammunition that was "loaded with...bullets that were .264" in diameter." As I believe I indicated elsewhere in a thread on this forum, the 6.5mm Carcano ammunition manufactured by the WCC, and in particular the bullet component, was constructed utilizing specifications from Italian ballistic drawings/schematics supplied to Western by the U. S. Army Ordnance Department, diagrams acquired by the army as part of the massive quantities of "paperwork" confiscated by Allied forces during their liberation of Europe in 1944, 1945. I possess 60 rounds of this ammunition, from three different lot numbers, and the average bullet diameter size is just slightly over .2677".

Following the assassination, SA Robert A. Frazier of the FBI had in his possession CE399, a 6.5mm Carcano bullet made by the Western Cartridge Co., plus the unfired 6.5mm Carcano cartridge found in C2766, also made by the Western Cartridge Co. On top of this, the FBI also purchased several boxes of WCC 6.5mm Carcano cartridges.

As part of his testimony to the WC, Frazier stated the dimensions of these WCC 6.5mm Carcano bullets that he had measured in his laboratory.

What diameter do you think he found the WCC bullets to be, and do you believe his measuring was accurate?

------------------------------------------bumped and awaiting a response---------------------------------------------

I need a reason to bump?

Thomas

Why what?

Bob

THAT is not an argument, Davey, that is a rant from a little child.

I guess it is finally time to rub your nose in the dirt on this topic. Just remember, you asked for it.

So how about my SBT question that you have been dodging for the last few months, Davey? Care to have a go at that or do you not want to get your hair mussed up?

Do I detect a hint of desperation in Davey's posts? Probably not fair of us to gang up on him. Oh well.