Robert Prudhomme

The photo known as 133-A and which appeared on the cover of Life Magazine shows clear indications of alteration in the stock of the rifle.

Look closely at the part of the stock directly behind the rear end of the bolt, and then compare it to this photo of another M91/38 short rifle:

Can you see the difference?

On the day of the assassination, Oswald's supervisor Bill Shelley gave an affidavit in which he mentioned the name of Gloria Calvery (click to enlarge):

The affidavit leaves no room for ambiguity.

Shelley "ran into" Gloria after leaving the front steps of the building and running "across the street to the corner of the park".

By the time of his and Billy Lovelady's April 7 WC testimony, however, the encounter with Gloria has been mysteriously transplanted to the front steps themselves.

Shelley:

Mr. SHELLEY - Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran back up there crying and said "The President has been shot" and Billy Lovelady and myself took off across the street to that little, old island and we stopped there for a minute

...

Mr. BALL - She ran back up to the door and you had still remained standing there?

Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.

Lovelady:

Mr. BALL - Now, when Gloria came up you were standing near Mr. Shelley?

Mr. LOVELADY - Yeah.

Mr. BALL - When Gloria came up and said the President had been shot, Gloria Calvary, what did you do?

Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I asked who told her. She said he had been shot so we asked her was she for certain or just had she seen the shot hit him or--she said yes, she had been right close to it to see and she had saw the blood and knew he had been hit but didn't know how serious it was and so the crowd had started towards the railroad tracks back, you know, behind our building there and we run towards that little, old island and kind of down there in that little street.

It couldn't be clearer.

The two men don't run into Gloria out across the street, she now runs up to them and becomes the reason why they leave the steps.

Most bizarrely of all, as we have seen earlier in this thread, both Shelley and Lovelady are now timestamping their departure from the front steps to some 3 minutes after the shooting. Even Ball is taken aback by the extravagance of their over-estimation.

And it in turn yields the wildly implausible timestamp of between 3 and 4 minutes for their looking back from the 'island' and seeing Baker and Truly about to enter the building.

**

It's clear that somebody at some point--somebody other than the WC folk--prevailed upon Shelley and Lovelady to delay their departure from the front steps by several minutes.

But why?

I've already suggested two likely reasons:

1. The police were initially admitting that the Baker-Oswald-Truly encounter happened on the front steps just after the assassination. In order to make this story work, the timeline had to be stretched to minutes rather than seconds: Oswald was 'stopped' on his way out of the building some 3-4 minutes after the shooting. He had time to make his descent from the sixth floor.

2. Billy Lovelady needed to be kept on the steps for a little while to help explain away any Oswaldian images that might show up in photos or films of the TSBD front entrance in the immediate assassination aftermath.

**

We can I think reasonably offer a third reason why the authorities, in the very early part of the 'investigation', would have wanted to distort the Shelley-Lovelady timeline:

Oswald was still alive.

The prospect of his going to trial was still a real one.

And he, as defendant, was going to make a very damaging claim from the dock:

I was out front with Bill Shelley.

How, if Oswald was the sixth-floor shooter, could he have known where exactly Bill Shelley was at the time of the assassination?

How was the prosecution to explain away his description of Shelley (and others) on the steps?

The intended solution was to shift Oswald's sighting of Shelley to several minutes after the assassination.

The front-entrance Baker incident having been transplanted up to the second-floor lunchroom, Oswald would now be said to have spotted Shelley at the front entrance on his (Oswald's) way out of the building.

To this end, Shelley needed to be kept on the front steps just long enough for this story to be plausible.

Three minutes would do it.

**

Shelley's name is not mentioned in the joint Bookhout-Hosty interrogation report, written while Oswald is still alive.

It does however make it into Bookhout's solo report, written after Oswald has been murdered:

"out with Bill Shelley in front" is glossed as a post-lunchroom incident event:

He thereafter went outside and stood around for five or ten minutes with foreman Bill Shelly, and thereafter went home. He stated that he left work because, in his opinion, based upon remarks of Bill Shelly, he did not believe that there was going to be anymore work that day due to the confusion in the building.

All that now remains is for Shelley to be asked whether this had ever happened--and for Shelley to answer with an honest 'no'.

**

Thus the quadruple switcheroo:

i) Oswald, in the domino room, sees Jarman & Norman come in the back door of the first floor BECOMES Oswald claimed to have eaten his lunch with Jarman & Norman

ii) Oswald claims to have gone up to the second-floor lunchroom to buy a coke shortly before the assassination BECOMES Oswald claimed to have gone up for the coke just after the assassination

iii) Oswald claims to have been eating his lunch and/or drinking the coke out front when the officer came in to the first floor BECOMES Oswald claimed the officer came into the second-floor lunchroom just after he had bought his coke

iv) Oswald names Bill Shelley as one of the people he was out front with at the time of the assassination BECOMES Oswald named Bill Shelley as someone he spoke with out front several minutes after the assassination.

That lying b*stard, Oswald.

We have him (literally) dead to rights.

As you discussed Sean, Shelley and Lovelady waiting for 3 minutes on the steps before leaving is a No Go. S and L are gone before Baker gets to the steps. Pauline Sanders said it took Baker 10 seconds to get there after the last shot. Baker and the WC are within a few seconds of Sanders estimate. We also have Couch and Darnell.

My best estimate for the Calvary/Shelley/Lovelady encounter is within a minute of the last shot.

Recently, in preparing a findagrave memorial for Gloria Jean Little Calvery and some of her ancestors by researching her, her ancestors and old news clippings on a genealogy site, I found her wedding announcement in the July 28, 1963 edition of the Grand Prairie News Texan. It states that Bill Shelley was the best man at Gloria Calvery's wedding, July 19,1963. I posted the wedding announcement which includes their wedding photo on her findagrave page.

Given that Calvery's name was first mentioned by none other than (chronically lying) Shelley in his earliest affidavit, and that it was later discovered that he did not run out to the island where he encountered her, but instead ran down the Elm Extension toward the railyard with Lovelady; and given that we now know Shelley was good friends with Calvery or her husband, or both, I now feel maybe this little "story" of Shelley's should be looked at in a new light.

Just some food for thought:

• Did he mention her name thinking she would somehow cover for his post assassination movements and/or timing?
• Or so he could coerce her into it?
• Or did he say he encountered Calvery, immediately after the shots, out on the island, rather than on the steps as she ran behind Baker, up the steps and past himself - and past Prayer Man - and into the building, in order to protect her? By placing her out at the island, it could give her an alibi if someone else said she ran up the steps and passed by PM/LHO on the landing or in the lobby within seconds after the shots.
• And by changing his story - and the timing - drastically in his WC testimony and stating she came up the steps minutes after the shots - it would also assure a story in which she would not have arrived in time to encounter or see PM.

It's worth pondering.

Hi Linda

Thanks for posting this post of Sean's. I've never considered before that the reason for Shelley and Lovelady to change their stories by extending their stay on the TSBD steps, following the shots, to 3-4 minutes was to give Oswald enough time to descend from the 6th floor to the front steps, just on the chance Oswald was able to maintain an alibi about being "out in front with Bill Shelley".

Small wonder they were so eager to kill Oswald. I sometimes think this whole thing came very close to blowing up in their faces.

Hi Thomas

Going over the photos and testimony, there appears to be no question that the "Truly" seen down near the traffic light cannot actually be Roy Truly, and that the real Roy Truly can be seen exactly where he claimed to be, out in front of the steps of the TSBD.

That being said, I still question Truly's testimony in which he describes a large panicky crowd congealing around him, and bearing him back to the steps of the TSBD. For one thing, there just weren't that many people standing in front of the steps, and most of them can still be seen near their original positions in the Couch film. We also do not see anyone falling to the ground in the Couch film, as described by Truly and, considering he was looking toward the steps in the Couch film, prior to Baker's arrival, he would have had to observe this crowd action before leaving his position beside Campbell.

What we have here is a man who appeared to be in too much of a rush to get back inside the TSBD, almost as if he had an appointment to keep.

The supposedly strongest argument the Z-film was not fabricated is that the extant film shows JFK being snapped "back and to the left." Why would forgers who were trying to cover up a conspiracy create such a representation, the argument goes.

I think forgers did re-create the Z-film in order to obscure the number and direction of shots and the limousine slow-down.

In particular, I believe Z-313 is a fabrication based on the head-snap it and the succeeding few frames appear to create. A head snap doesn't make sense. A head snap is characteristic, for example, of the head being hit by blunt object, such as a boxer's gloved fist. The striking object transfers most if not virtually all of its momentum to the struck object, the head; and it does so in a short time. A bullet striking a head, however, does not transfer all or most of its momentum to the head upon striking the hard outer surface of the head. Reason: the bullet is piercing the skull, and so it retains a great deal of its momentum as it passes into the brain. Inside the brain, momentum is transferred to various brain structures.

Look at films, if you can stand to do so, of prisoners being executed by gunshot. There is no snapping of any body part when it's struck by the bullet. At most, there is a a pushing "forward" -- i.e., in the direction the bullet was fired.

Dan Rather may or may not have viewed a camera-original copy of the Z-film. His description, however, of the movement of JFK's body is consistent with how a penetrable object moves when struck by a penetrating bullet.

just out of curiosity, (you're a scientist in math or physics stuff, do i remember correctly?) - what's the difference between the energy possessed by a swinging baseball bat at the point of impact on an object and the energy of a 6.5mm bullet from 150 yards at the point of impact of the same object?

clearly the baseball bat would transfer most if not all of its energy to the object, depending on the fixedness of it, while the bullet would not. but i imagine that the amount of energy the bullet does transfer, considering the amount of energy it possesses at the time with plenty to spare, is sufficient to snap a person's head back. especially if the bullet is blunt-nosed with exposed, soft lead.

another curiosity: all science aside, i once shot a sealed paint can about half full (or half empty) of paint with a 240 Weatherby from about 25 yards out (i prided myself on my marksmanship from 25 yards out back then) --- (Pat, Robert, what's the velocity of this bullet at that range? the same as your 308?) --- The paint can behaved very much like i'd expect a person's head to behave if it did not have a neck and a body trying very hard to make it behave. the rear portion of the can blew backwards maybe another 25 yards, and the front portion of the can and the paint flew straight upward and outward a considerable distance.

a few points i take from this memory.

a) this action describes a snap like no other snap i've ever in my life seen.

if this paint can behaved as badly as it did (and it did) then i have no problem believing that the president's head (and upper body), as a whole, behaved just as i'd expect it to.

c) i don't know what science says about the bullet's energy transference v. a heavy object (and I support science), but i know what the paint can thinks of the bullet's energy transference.

d) honestly what i think is that very often things seem to want to forego the laws of physics when they are shot with a powerful gun. they do weird things. it's hard to apply science to Ks head reaction. which is why the WC tried so hard to do just that.

/***

fyi/fmi Factory figures indicate that a 100-grain Nosler Partition exits the muzzle at 3,406 fps, maintaining 1,500 ft-lbs of energy to over 300 yards and 1,000 ft-lbs past 500 yards. Another useful load pushes an 85-grain Barnes TSX to 3,500 fps.

Read more: http://www.shootingtimes.com/ammo/ammunition_the_6mm_solution_042211/#ixzz3hcRXaZXV

The amount of energy transferred also depends on whether or not the bullet continues out the other side of the victim, in a somewhat intact condition, or breaks up inside the victim and actually comes to a complete halt inside the victim.

The examples you used, the Nosler Partition bullet and the Barnes TSX bullet, are both perfect examples of what is called "controlled expansion". The following images will help to explain this concept:

Barnes TSX or "Triple Shock X-bullet", solid copper construction.

Barnes TSX bullet in successive stages of controlled expansion, showing how the dividing "X" allows this bullet to open up but still limits expansion to the base of the "X".

Nosler Partition bullet, showing the copper "partition" partway down the bullet, and how this partition limits expansion of the soft lead nose of this bullet, and does not allow expansion to go past the partition.

Both of these bullets would have had a very good chance of exiting the other side of JFK's skull, thus limiting the amount of energy transferred, although the expansion of the tip of these bullets still inflicts a large amount of damage.

In comparison, a hollow point frangible bullet will completely disintegrate and come to a complete halt inside a head wound, thus transferring ALL of its energy to its victim.

Your paint can analogy demonstrates that large blowout wounds in skulls are not always the exit point of a bullet. Rather, with a disintegrating bullet creating a large hydraulic shock wave ahead of it, the blowout site is often where the hydraulic shock wave has burst the skull, much the same way over inflating a balloon will cause it to burst.

Looking again at the Nosler bullet, it is interesting to note that all that prevents total break up of this bullet is a thin band of copper across the mid section of the bullet. Look at this cross section of a full metal jacket bullet (the type of bullet that allegedly disintegrated inside of JFK's skull):

Would the copper nose of a FMJ bullet not act the same as the copper partition in the Nosler bullet, and prevent expansion and break up of the FMJ bullet? Is this not the purpose of the FMJ design?

If that is Truly near the foot of the steps, where is the crowd that congealed around him and bore him back to the steps?

Was Truly heading to a pre-arranged rendezvous with Baker?

"Gloria Jean Little Calvery*, worked in the Texas School Book Depository (TSBD), as an employee of the Southwestern Publishing Co. and was one of the extremely close witnesses to the assassination of President John F. Kennedy. She and 3 of her office co-workers, Karan Hicks, Karen Westbrook, and Carol Reed, were standing on the sidewalk on the north side of Elm Street about 1/2 way between Houston St. and the Triple Underpass, to the east of the Stemmons Fwy sign. According to her own FBI Statement taken 3/19/64 - Commission Exhibit 1381 - she said she heard the first shot when the President's limo was directly in front of her:

Except for the "1/2 way between Houston St. and the Triple Underpass" description, which would put her down in front of the extant Z313 headshot, I'd say this was her.

chris

P.S.

Also, the "skirt" under the Thornton sign. Of course, that is supposed to be Beatrice Hester. Compare it to the "skirt" in Darnell's "Baker/Truly" clip.

Good find, Chris. If the part about Ms. Calvery being 10-15 feet behind Baker is going to be believed, though, we need to find a woman in a light coloured top.

Clive

"Mr. TRULY. I heard an explosion, which I thought was a toy cannon or a loud firecracker from west of the building. Nothing happened at this first explosion. Everything was frozen. And immediately after two more explosions, which I realized that I thought was a gun, a rifle of some kind.

The President's--I saw the President's car swerve to the left and stop somewheres down in this area. It is misleading here. And that is the last I saw of his ear, because this crowd, when the third shot rang out--there was a large crowd all along this abutment here, this little wall, and there was some around us in front--they began screaming and falling to the ground. And the people in front of myself and Mr. Campbell surged back, either in terror or panic. They must have seen this thing. I became separated from Mr. Campbell. They just practically bore me back to the first step on the entrance of our building.
Mr. BELIN. When you saw the President's car seem to stop, how long did it appear to stop?
Mr. TRULY. It would be hard to say over a second or two or something like that. I didn't see I just saw it stop. I don't know. I didn't see it start up.
Mr. BELIN. Then you stopped looking at it, or you were distracted by something else?
Mr. TRULY. Yes. The crowd in front of me kind of congealed around me and bore me back through weight of numbers, and I lost sight of it.
I think there were a lot of people trying to get out of the way of something. They didn't know what."

Does Truly appear to be confused about whether or not he heard rifle shots?

Is there any photographic or film evidence to support his statement that a large crowd congealed around him and bore him back to the steps?

Truly's testimony is more than unreliable, it sounds fabricated.

Immediately following the assassination she ran back to the TSBD, following about 10-15 feet behind the sprinting DPD Officer, Marrion Baker, and they went up the front steps and into the building, as was partially captured on the Cook-Darnell Film and recounted in eyewitness testimony:

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i286/niteprowler147/bl3_zps34f39e84.gif

I don't feel that the runner quite matches the build of Calvery girl in the evidence that's been posted here.

Unfortunately, the evidence regarding Gloria Calvery presented thus far would have us believe a Caucasian woman has morphed into a Negro or Hispanic woman. I believe it is time we take a serious look at just who Gloria Calvery was and what her movements were following the assassination.

"Posted 10 July 2015 - 11:26 PM

Gary Murr, on 30 Jun 2015 - 10:07 AM, said:

One should also be aware in reading this bumped thread that the WCC did not make 6.5mm Carcano ammunition that was "loaded with...bullets that were .264" in diameter." As I believe I indicated elsewhere in a thread on this forum, the 6.5mm Carcano ammunition manufactured by the WCC, and in particular the bullet component, was constructed utilizing specifications from Italian ballistic drawings/schematics supplied to Western by the U. S. Army Ordnance Department, diagrams acquired by the army as part of the massive quantities of "paperwork" confiscated by Allied forces during their liberation of Europe in 1944, 1945. I possess 60 rounds of this ammunition, from three different lot numbers, and the average bullet diameter size is just slightly over .2677".

Following the assassination, SA Robert A. Frazier of the FBI had in his possession CE399, a 6.5mm Carcano bullet made by the Western Cartridge Co., plus the unfired 6.5mm Carcano cartridge found in C2766, also made by the Western Cartridge Co. On top of this, the FBI also purchased several boxes of WCC 6.5mm Carcano cartridges.

As part of his testimony to the WC, Frazier stated the dimensions of these WCC 6.5mm Carcano bullets that he had measured in his laboratory.

What diameter do you think he found the WCC bullets to be, and do you believe his measuring was accurate?"

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Some very interesting discussions but, I have yet to receive a reply to my question, although I am sure this post has been read many times.

Robert, are you going to give us the answer soon?

I guess I'm going to have to answer the question myself, as the person it is directed towards is not responding. If you're interested, I have bumped an old thread of mine titled "How a Popular Misconception Gave Away a Lie by the FBI". It deals with the Carcano ammunition, CE399 and FBI SA Robert A. Frazier.

From the Warren Commission testimony of SA Robert A. Frazier, FBI, describing the spent 6.5mm Carcano bullet referred to as CE 399:

"Mr. FRAZIER - The bullet has parallel sides, with a round nose, is fully jacketed with a copper-alloy coating or metal jacket on the outside of a lead core. Its diameter is 6.65 millimeters. The length--possibly it would be better to put it in inches rather than millimeters The diameter is .267 inches, and a length of 1.185, or approximately 1.2 inches."

While I believe Frazier actually obtained the figure of 6.65 mm by measuring (or guessing), he likely obtained the diameter of .267" (actually .2677") and the length of 1.185" from a text, as these are correct dimensions but do not match the above photo, as do his diameter and land impression width measurements.

It should be pointed out here that the diameter of 6.65 mm Frazier obtained is impossible for a 6.5mm Carcano bullet. Most 6.5mm rifles shoot a bullet .264" in diameter, while the Carcano shoots a bullet .268" (.2677" actually) in diameter. However, 6.65 mm works out to .2618" and, outside of one experimental Swiss cartridge made for NATO, there is not a rifle I know that shoots a bullet this diameter. It would be easy to forgive Frazier this mistake and blame it on the fact CE 399 was flattened but, Frazier not only had the unfired bullet found in the chamber of C2766 to measure, the FBI also purchased WCC 6.5mm ammo. How Frazier came up with a diameter of 6.65 mm is still a mystery.

If we convert the length measurement of 1.185" to Metric, we get a length of 30.099 mm or 30 mm. Measuring the length of the bullet in the photo, I get 28.5 mm.

Once again, not a 6.5mm Carcano bullet."

As pointed out, the bullet measured in millimeters by Frazier, converts from 6.65 mm to .2618 inches.

Before anyone points out that CE 399 was slighty flattened at the base and difficut to measure, let me remind everyone that not only did Frazier have the pristine unfired bullet left in the chamber of C2766 to measure, he also went out and purchased several boxes of Western Cartridge Co. 6.5mm Carcano ammunition from the same lot as the cartridges allegedly purchased by Oswald.

Before anyone points out that CE 399 was slighty flattened at the base and difficut to measure, C=2πr will solve for the diameter of the bullet even if it is misshapen a little

Precisely, Ken but, with a plethora of pristine bullets still in the box for Frazier to measure with his Vernier caliper, why even bother measuring CE 399?

see, this is what was throwing me:

6.5 mm = .2559"

6.65mm = .2618"

the numbers both grow in the same direction - UP.

when i saw "6.5mm rifles shoot a bullet .264" in diameter, while the Carcano shoots a bullet .268" What i saw was 6.5mm = .264" or = .268" which are both HIGHER than .2618" because the 6.5 designation you refer to is the bore width and the bullet is actually the groove width (6.8 in this case). and 6.65 refers to "who knows" since it complies with neither land nor groove in a 6.5mm Carcano rifle (happens to be right in the middle, doesn't it).

out of curiosity, is it that the MC grooves are deeper than other 6.5's since the bullets are 2 different sizes?

If Frazier was telling the truth, the WCC cartridges were loaded with bullets .2618" in diameter, This would have seriously affected the accuracy of C2766.

Yes, the Carcano (no Mannlicher in front of it) has unusually deep rifling grooves, compared to other 6.5mm calibre rifles. This is one of the reasons this rifle also had "progressive" or "gain" twist rifling, as opposed to the normal "standard" twist riflings prevalent on the majority of rifles, although the progressive twist rifling was replaced with standard twist rifling with the introduction of the short rifle (Oswald's alleged weapon) in 1938.

I'm beginning to wonder if that is Gloria Calvery seen running toward the TSBD in the Couch film. It would certainly put the lie to Lovelady's and Shelley's testimony.

Hi Linda

Thanks for the link. I found the transcript from "Find a Grave" so interesting, I decided to post it:

"Gloria Jean Little Calvery*, worked in the Texas School Book Depository (TSBD), as an employee of the Southwestern Publishing Co. and was one of the extremely close witnesses to the assassination of President John F. Kennedy. She and 3 of her office co-workers, Karan Hicks, Karen Westbrook, and Carol Reed, were standing on the sidewalk on the north side of Elm Street about 1/2 way between Houston St. and the Triple Underpass, to the east of the Stemmons Fwy sign. According to her own FBI Statement taken 3/19/64 - Commission Exhibit 1381 - she said she heard the first shot when the President's limo was directly in front of her:

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh22/pdf/WH22_CE_1381.pdf

Immediately following the assassination she ran back to the TSBD, following about 10-15 feet behind the sprinting DPD Officer, Marrion Baker, and they went up the front steps and into the building, as was partially captured on the Cook-Darnell Film and recounted in eyewitness testimony:
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i286/niteprowler147/bl3_zps34f39e84.gif

In his Warren Commission testimony, a TSBD co-worker, Joe Molina, who had been positioned on the landing of the steps during the motorcade, stated he encountered a "horrified" Gloria Calvery in the entryway ~20-30 seconds after the final shot and she explained that she had seen the fatal head shot:

Mr. BALL. Do you know a girl named Gloria Calvary[sic]?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Did Gloria come up?
Ms.. MOLINA. Yes, she came. I was in the lobby standing there and she came in with this other girl.
Mr. BALL. What did she say?
Mr. MOLINA. She said "Oh, my God, Joe, he's been shot." They were both horrified. I said "Are you sure he was shot?" She said "Oh, Joe ,I'm sure. I saw his hair fly up and I'm sure he was shot" something to that extent."

That footage with Baker and Truly inside the building was apparently taken by Alyea so that supports what we see in Darnell of the man not stepping aside for a cop running into his building for no apparent reason, same black hat and suit.

Perhaps Roy was simply heading back inside to grab some lunch after hearing and seeing nothing worth hanging around for?

Then he hears one of the lead players behind him shouting for people to move out the way and unfortunately for us, becomes a little too involved.

Considering that Campbell and Truly were on their way out for lunch when they stopped to watch the motorcade, it would seem odd that Truly would be heading back inside for some lunch.

This is why his actions are so odd. Baker was at the foot of the steps of the TSBD within seconds of the last shot, and Truly was at the steps long before Baker made it there, yet Truly was also able to watch the limo swerve to the left and stop AFTER the last shot. This gave Truly very little time to go from his position on the Elm St. sidewalk to the foot of the stairs. It also makes a mockery of his WC testimony, where he testified that a panicky mob "bore him back to the steps". Not only do none of the films show a mob pushing back to the TSBD, he would have already been at the steps before anyone in the crowd even began to react.

Seriously, a man hears three shots fired as the President goes by, sees the Presidential limo swerve to the left and stop, and sees people beginning to react to the assassination, and he doesn't stick around to see what happened? He's not the least bit curious?

Give me a break.

In case you are having trouble with this, think of the .30-06 cartridge and the .308 cartridge. Both rifles shoot a .30 calibre bullet and both rifles have a bore of .300".

The groove diameter of both rifles is .308", meaning each groove is .004" deep.

Just to confuse everyone, the .30-06 (introduced in 1906) went with the bore designation while the .308 went with the bullet diameter designation.

Glenn

Look at this diagram of the inside of a rifle barrel:

Depicted are the riflings; in this case there are four rifings, just as inside of the 6.5mm carcano barrel. The raised portions are called "lands" and the distance from one land to an opposite land is called the "bore diameter". The widest portions are called "grooves" and the distance from one groove to an opposing groove is called the "groove diameter". The groove diameter is also the diameter of the bullet.

In the case of the 6.5mm Carcano, the bore (bore diameter) is 6.5 mm or .2559". The groove diameter is 6.8 mm or .268" (.2677") and this corresponds to the diameter of the Carcano bullet.

Frazier measured the Western Cartridge Co. bullets and found them to be 6.65 mm in diameter. Converting 6.65 mm from Metric equals .2618".

Have you read the other thread I bumped yet?

Bump

"Posted 10 July 2015 - 11:26 PM

Gary Murr, on 30 Jun 2015 - 10:07 AM, said:

One should also be aware in reading this bumped thread that the WCC did not make 6.5mm Carcano ammunition that was "loaded with...bullets that were .264" in diameter." As I believe I indicated elsewhere in a thread on this forum, the 6.5mm Carcano ammunition manufactured by the WCC, and in particular the bullet component, was constructed utilizing specifications from Italian ballistic drawings/schematics supplied to Western by the U. S. Army Ordnance Department, diagrams acquired by the army as part of the massive quantities of "paperwork" confiscated by Allied forces during their liberation of Europe in 1944, 1945. I possess 60 rounds of this ammunition, from three different lot numbers, and the average bullet diameter size is just slightly over .2677".

Following the assassination, SA Robert A. Frazier of the FBI had in his possession CE399, a 6.5mm Carcano bullet made by the Western Cartridge Co., plus the unfired 6.5mm Carcano cartridge found in C2766, also made by the Western Cartridge Co. On top of this, the FBI also purchased several boxes of WCC 6.5mm Carcano cartridges.

As part of his testimony to the WC, Frazier stated the dimensions of these WCC 6.5mm Carcano bullets that he had measured in his laboratory.

What diameter do you think he found the WCC bullets to be, and do you believe his measuring was accurate?"

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Some very interesting discussions but, I have yet to receive a reply to my question, although I am sure this post has been read many times.

Robert, are you going to give us the answer soon?

I guess I'm going to have to answer the question myself, as the person it is directed towards is not responding. If you're interested, I have bumped an old thread of mine titled "How a Popular Misconception Gave Away a Lie by the FBI". It deals with the Carcano ammunition, CE399 and FBI SA Robert A. Frazier.

From the Warren Commission testimony of SA Robert A. Frazier, FBI, describing the spent 6.5mm Carcano bullet referred to as CE 399:

"Mr. FRAZIER - The bullet has parallel sides, with a round nose, is fully jacketed with a copper-alloy coating or metal jacket on the outside of a lead core. Its diameter is 6.65 millimeters. The length--possibly it would be better to put it in inches rather than millimeters The diameter is .267 inches, and a length of 1.185, or approximately 1.2 inches."

While I believe Frazier actually obtained the figure of 6.65 mm by measuring (or guessing), he likely obtained the diameter of .267" (actually .2677") and the length of 1.185" from a text, as these are correct dimensions but do not match the above photo, as do his diameter and land impression width measurements.

It should be pointed out here that the diameter of 6.65 mm Frazier obtained is impossible for a 6.5mm Carcano bullet. Most 6.5mm rifles shoot a bullet .264" in diameter, while the Carcano shoots a bullet .268" (.2677" actually) in diameter. However, 6.65 mm works out to .2618" and, outside of one experimental Swiss cartridge made for NATO, there is not a rifle I know that shoots a bullet this diameter. It would be easy to forgive Frazier this mistake and blame it on the fact CE 399 was flattened but, Frazier not only had the unfired bullet found in the chamber of C2766 to measure, the FBI also purchased WCC 6.5mm ammo. How Frazier came up with a diameter of 6.65 mm is still a mystery.

If we convert the length measurement of 1.185" to Metric, we get a length of 30.099 mm or 30 mm. Measuring the length of the bullet in the photo, I get 28.5 mm.

Once again, not a 6.5mm Carcano bullet."

As pointed out, the bullet measured in millimeters by Frazier, converts from 6.65 mm to .2618 inches.

Before anyone points out that CE 399 was slighty flattened at the base and difficut to measure, let me remind everyone that not only did Frazier have the pristine unfired bullet left in the chamber of C2766 to measure, he also went out and purchased several boxes of Western Cartridge Co. 6.5mm Carcano ammunition from the same lot as the cartridges allegedly purchased by Oswald.

Bump

Here's an interesting tidbit I just discovered. Bill Shelley was the best man at Gloria Calvery's wedding!

The girl in the tire ad with her above, Dana Herring, was also her bridesmaid. It's in her wedding announcement which I found online at My Heritage. I made up a findagrave page for her, connected up some of her ancestors to it and included a couple of the photos Thomas found, and the wedding clipping. I was going to attach it here but can't figure out how to do that.

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=149407954

Nice work, Linda!

Sounds like Bill Shelley and Gloria's husband were friends...

--Tommy

PS Randy Sorensen found the photos.

PPS Now we need to start working on Ochus V. Campbell. I can't even figure out what his middle name was...

Thomas Graves, Thanks!

As for Ochus V. Campbell his middle name was Virgil. I do know he died in '97. I also tracked down his last address which was in a huge house out on a lake on the far east side of Dallas - so he was pretty well off. Last year i spent a good deal of time trying to track down a yearbook photo of him from Oklahoma, but no luck. However, a long while back, I did save a double picture - that is 2 photos side by side, cropped from the Wiegman and Martin films, that has a man labeled "Ochus V. Campbell?" in front of the TSBD post assassination. I can't even remember who posted it, i'm guessing maybe Denis Morrisette, but i could be wrong. He's older, white-haired and has black, horn-rimmed glasses. Anyway, I wanted to upload it here, but for the life of me i can't figure out how to do it. It's not a URL but a file. I've just spent 10 minutes clicking around. Really...this should be a simple process. Can someone please leave me a message about how to upload images here, please?

In the meantime I went looking for him in the Unger Martin gallery and found the him in this anim gif. "Campbell" appears in the bottom rt hand corner eventually. The still in the "double photo" i mentioned is from this video: http://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/displayimage.php?pid=5873&fullsize=1

**

Randy Sorensen! Ooops, sorry! I thought Thomas had posted those pix of Gloria. My bad! Good work finding them!

Btw...she has 2 living sons, Craig and Chistopher.

**

Robert Prudhomme: "No matter how many times I compare the photos, I just can't reconcile that Gloria Little is the woman seen in the Darnell still."

I've wondered about that myself. She did appear chubbier in her wedding pic from July '63. Who knows...maybe she lost weight to please her husband? Women's wt can fluctuate a lot sometimes, even in a short period, for such reasons.

Hi Linda

You have Gloria Calvery's wedding picture? Wow, I'd love to see that.

"Posted 10 July 2015 - 11:26 PM

maybe someone has some higher res copies...?

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=19990#entry268331

beautiful - i meant of the backyard photos, tho - that's where it's hard for me to see the rifle slings (and the front of the trigger guard someone pointed out was different, slightly)...

correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't the entire proposed purpose of these backyard photos to show LHO's propensity for Communism (even though the two mags in his hands were of polarized schools of Communism...) AND to attach the MC that would later be found on 6 to him...?

which means that in order for the Lone Gunman theory to be true, that rifle MUST BE the one found on 6. right?

there's no way around that, right?

if that rifle in the backyard photo is NOT C2766, then the entire LN theory is a wash.

right?

It would be foolish of them not to plant the same rifle on the 6th floor as was used in the back yard photos.

Total Cointelpro, Greg. Protected, too. Makes one wonder about everything, doesn't it.

What is your problem?

The following clip assembling Dallas footage includes a version of the Zapruder film starting at about 14:39, near the end of the clip.

At about 14:55, a puff of smoke or dust appears behind JFK, possibly originating from the right rear outboard side of the limo. It can be seen for several frames.

Looking at the antdavisonNZ stabilization, this puff appears beginning about Z-260. It is, however, much less visible in this version, and may be the effect of the limo passing a patch of light-colored dirt on the grassy median while a light-colored reflection is moving over the trunk lid:

Which interpretation do people feel is correct? If there's smoke at around Z-260 ff, it's not much written about.

Has the "puff of smoke" been faked?

I've never seen that photo of JFK lying in his coffin before. What an amazing piece of reconstruction on the right side of his head!