Terry Mauro
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Question from Thaddeus Kochanny:
I read the book. Interesting elements in it too. I looked in vain for any reference to the Federal Reserve Board's involvement in the JFK murder.
The President had intended to buy back from the Federal Reserve and return to the Treasury Department the "right" to control the money supply and interest rates. Soon after coming to this decision he was murdered.
Seems to me that since the Federal Reserve System benefited most, long term, its involvement should have been discussed.
*****************************************************************************
"Seems to me that since the Federal Reserve System benefited most, long term, its involvement should have been discussed."
John, if there's anyone who's been shouting from that particular soapbox for years, it's been me. Therefore, I couldn't be in more agreement, on that note.
On one hand, I thought Talbot's book was more slanted towards Bobby, his behind the scenes control and administration of his brother's campaign, career, and general all-around "hard ball - hard scrabble" methods of handling domestic policy, which I concluded was necessary when dealing with the mindset of the U.S. populace, in particular. It's the only way they understand, or seemed capable of accepting. And, Bobby had his hand on its pulse at that time in history.
JFK, on the other hand, seemed to be the more polished and worldly of the two brothers, possessing far better foreign policy insight and diplomacy than Bobby. At least, that's part of the gist I gleaned from the book.
It was also brought to my attention by a couple of author and writer friends of mine, about the lack of forensic examination afforded in Talbot's book. Which I quickly pointed out was not what the book was supposed to be about, from what I had gathered in reading it. And, also why I felt it was more an account of RFK and JFK's domestic and foreign policy during JFK's term in office, and how this may have led to a culmination of probabilities surrounding the reasons why the assassination was contracted, rather than an examination of the mechanics involved in the assassination, itself.
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I'm so cheered by all this rational second thinking.
Terry ... Do you enjoy Big Sur in autumn?
Enquiring Mind
*******************************************************
Sorry, if I seem to be ignoring you, C.B. But, I'm not, really. You seem to maintaining an even keel these days, which I greatly admire. I think we've always shared the same suspicions, haven't we? I, on the other hand, am merely trying to keep the peace and pass on a little "healthy" encouragement, if you will.
"I'm so cheered by all this rational second thinking.
Terry ... Do you enjoy Big Sur in autumn?"
Hi C.D.,
I couldn't afford to make the trip, even if I wanted to, nor do I have the time, at present. It would take a death befalling one of my extended family up in that area, at this point. I'm down in SoCal, remember? Aside from the fact, if I was ever planning on enjoying Autumn anywhere in the United States, it would more than likely be in New York, where the paternal side of my family is still in residence. The color more spectacular, and rivaling anything I've ever seen out here on the Left Coast. And, since I've lived here longer than anywhere else in the States, at this stage in my life, I know from where I speak.
"Enquiring Mind"
That's Inquiring Mind, darlin'.
I just love my two Charlies'!
Carry on, Luvs.
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Whether or not LBJ was a conspirator or even had knowledge of an assassination plot, I submit the following two points about him:
(1) He was pretty clearly politically corrupt, was he not?
(2) On the other hand, he had some significant accomplishments, primarily among them the civil rights legislation of the mid-sixties.
(3) Yet on the other hand, he will long be remembered for the escalation of the war in Vietnam and the incredible number of deaths on both sides of that war.
Speaking of which, I want to go back to the intellectual dishonesty of Robert Strange MacNamara who David Talbot quotes as having been told by KFK that the was in Vietnam was unwinnable. I have reservations about whether MacNamara is speaking honestly about JFK's position. If he is not, he is a xxxx. But if he is, that only further indicts him as one of the architects of the war under LBJ.
Back to Lady Bird, I suspect many of us here believe she probably went to her grave with at least some knowledge of facts about the assassination.
***************************************************************************
He also brought electricity to the rural south during, and following The Depression, and World War II. I believe he was more a victim of circumstances when it comes to what happened to JFK, and even with the escalation of Vietnam. I honestly don't believe he actually realized what was going to happen. And, I find it inconceivable that he would have condoned it, or that it even needed his final seal of approval. It was out of his hands. Everything he was supposed to have said at the Murchison's house that night was out of sheer bravado, and more than likely aimed at RFK. Players such as Hoover, Dulles, Helms, and the rest of that team of operators, had LBJ's Achilles' heel, with all they had on him concerning prior corruption, wheeling and dealing, and Bobby Baker.
I still believe he was nothing more than a corn pone hayseed who made good, strictly on his reputation as an early politician who originally set about to help the poor workers of The Depression Era. Somewhere along the way, from the early 1950's through the 1960's he made some dishonest deals, that may have even involved murder, but I'm not convinced that he was totally unaware of the havoc that was being wrought in his name. Yet, by the time he may have become aware, or learned of what his handlers had partaken in to keep him elected and in office, he more than likely found that he was in too deep, over his head, and owed too many to have been able to extract himself from the tangled web he had woven for himself. I also think that Lady Bird was merely a product of her times and of her own family's legacy. It must have been hard, even seemed futile at times, to have to stand in the footsteps JFK and Jackie had left imprinted on The White House, as well as on the heart and memory of a whole nation that had been thrust into a perpetual state of mourning.
"Convince a person against their will, and they are of the same opinion still."
LBainesJ was a SOAB.
LBirdJ was just plain old "B".
I got LOTS of lowdown on her from the late Madeleine Brown.
After LBJ died, it was Bird who managed to get cut off LBJ's
monthly stipend to his son, Steven Brown. Madeleine also believed
it was she who had Steve "kidnapped" and injected with cancer cells.
She knew about Lyndon's other love children, and used it for blackmail.
She was his partner in crime.
Lots more, according to Madeleine.
Jack
**********************************************************************
"Lots more, according to Madeleine."
Words spoken of a "woman scorned," perhaps?
Listen, Jack. I'm not advocating these people. I'm merely trying to put another slant on it because I don't follow the trail to Dallas, I follow it to Wall Street.
But to get back to the case in point, LBJ was responsible for bringing NASA, and aeronautical research to the southland [Houston, Cape Kennedy].
Also, there were more casualties and deaths under Nixon's term, than under LBJ's. And, it was Nixon who expanded the war into Cambodia, destabilizing that country, and causing a multi-million person genocide.
If the Joseph Alsop/LBJ transcripts of their telephone conversations concerning the creation of the Warren Commission are correct, then LBJ is extremely peripheral, or not involved, at all, in the assassination, except for aforeknowledge from Dulles and the Brown Brothers of Tejas. If anything, LBJ was an unwitting tool to get JFK down to Tejas into the killing field. And, if anyone should get a finger pointed at them it should be ["future" Republican party man] Connally. Maybe, Connally saw the future. Republicans were going to take control [wink, wink] via their dirty tricks campaigns.
"Madeleine also believed it was she who had Steve "kidnapped" and injected with cancer cells."
Statements, such as that one, only serve to give credence to what Judyth says she was involved in.
"She knew about Lyndon's other love children, and used it for blackmail. She was his partner in crime."
Blackmail? Of whom? Women claiming that LBJ fostered their illegitimate children? It sounds as if these women were looking to blackmail him, and Bird was only doing her part in looking out for her own family's "best interests."
I'm sure it ain't as cut and dry as Madeleine Brown claimed.
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Whether or not LBJ was a conspirator or even had knowledge of an assassination plot, I submit the following two points about him:
(1) He was pretty clearly politically corrupt, was he not?
(2) On the other hand, he had some significant accomplishments, primarily among them the civil rights legislation of the mid-sixties.
(3) Yet on the other hand, he will long be remembered for the escalation of the war in Vietnam and the incredible number of deaths on both sides of that war.
Speaking of which, I want to go back to the intellectual dishonesty of Robert Strange MacNamara who David Talbot quotes as having been told by KFK that the was in Vietnam was unwinnable. I have reservations about whether MacNamara is speaking honestly about JFK's position. If he is not, he is a xxxx. But if he is, that only further indicts him as one of the architects of the war under LBJ.
Back to Lady Bird, I suspect many of us here believe she probably went to her grave with at least some knowledge of facts about the assassination.
***************************************************************************
He also brought electricity to the rural south during, and following The Depression, and World War II. I believe he was more a victim of circumstances when it comes to what happened to JFK, and even with the escalation of Vietnam. I honestly don't believe he actually realized what was going to happen. And, I find it inconceivable that he would have condoned it, or that it even needed his final seal of approval. It was out of his hands. Everything he was supposed to have said at the Murchison's house that night was out of sheer bravado, and more than likely aimed at RFK. Players such as Hoover, Dulles, Helms, and the rest of that team of operators, had LBJ's Achilles' heel, with all they had on him concerning prior corruption, wheeling and dealing, and Bobby Baker.
I still believe he was nothing more than a corn pone hayseed who made good, strictly on his reputation as an early politician who originally set about to help the poor workers of The Depression Era. Somewhere along the way, from the early 1950's through the 1960's he made some dishonest deals, that may have even involved murder, but I'm not convinced that he was totally unaware of the havoc that was being wrought in his name. Yet, by the time he may have become aware, or learned of what his handlers had partaken in to keep him elected and in office, he more than likely found that he was in too deep, over his head, and owed too many to have been able to extract himself from the tangled web he had woven for himself. I also think that Lady Bird was merely a product of her times and of her own family's legacy. It must have been hard, even seemed futile at times, to have to stand in the footsteps JFK and Jackie had left imprinted on The White House, as well as on the heart and memory of a whole nation that had been thrust into a perpetual state of mourning.
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Jim Fetzer -- I apologize to you. I know things that go on in people's private lives and the unfairness that can develop out of it. I do not know Josiah Thompson. It was 100% my opinion. I came across the video by accident. It seemed he walked all over you and you just let him go on and on. What you should do is yell over him with your opinions or facts. It's better than sitting there quiet. He kept calling you a nut, and so he's saying it about all of us.
Maybe you'll remember me. I was the one who sent emails out one morning before dawn while in an altered sleep state. The admin at that forum called me the Manchurian Candidate and it was about Jane Fonda. And you published it in some local free newspaper along with my name. Remember?
God help us all.
Kathy
*********************************************************************
Thanks for stating that, Kath.
Ter
You're welcome. As David Healy said, I was out of line.
Kathy
********************************************************************
Good girl!
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God! What's up with these duplicate postings? Deleted by T. Mauro on 7-14-07 12:30 PDT
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Flocco not a crackpot are you serious? Some of his gems:
BUSH AND CHENEY INDICTED!
A Chicago grand jury has indicted the President and Vice-President of the United States along with multiple high officials in the Bush administration
Chicago -- August 2, 2005 -- TomFlocco.com -- U.S. federal prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald's Chicago grand jury has issued perjury and obstruction of justice indictments to the following members of the Bush Administration: President George W. Bush, Vice-President Richard Cheney, Bush Chief of Staff Andrew Card, Cheney Chief of Staff I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby, Attorney General Alberto Gonzalez, former Attorney General John Ashcroft, imprisoned New York Times reporter Judith Miller and former Senior Cheney advisor Mary Matalin.
[…]
…the Fitzgerald probe is reportedly far-reaching and expanding much deeper into past White House criminal acts involving Bush-Clinton drug money laundering in Mena, Arkansas to White House involvement in 9.11; but also war in Iraq and Afghanistan under false pretenses.
British Prime Minister Tony Blair was indicted for obstruction of justice and is reportedly consulting with members of Parliament and legal aides regarding how to avoid appearing in the U.S.A. for interrogation before Fitzgerald in Chicago. "
Florida Rep. Katherine Harris Dead in Plane Crash
WASHINGTON, July 7, 2003 (TomFlocco.com) -- According to a source who refused to be named in this story, Florida Congresswoman Katherine Harris (R-FL) died this morning in a light plane crash in foggy conditions near Toronto�s island airport around 10:00 AM.
[…]
…the source also said that Governor Jeb Bush was reportedly at the accident scene shortly after the crash.
http://web.archive.org/web/20030714115331/...florida_rep.htm
9-11 crash victim Barbara Olsen arrested in Europe
by Tom Flocco
Austria--September 22, 2005--TomFlocco.com--French and American intelligence agents have arrested Barbara Olsen, the wife of a former Bush administration official, a few days ago on the Polish-Austrian border, according to agents close to and with knowledge of the incident.
The alleged 9.11 Pentagon crash victim was found to be in possession of millions in fake interbank Italian lyra currency, according to the agents.
Let’s look at a few problems with the story:
1) Poland and Austria are several hundred miles apart the don’t share a border, you’d think “American intelligence agents” working in Austria would now that. He latter changed the story to “German-Austrian border”.
2) The Italian Lira went out of circulation at the end of 2001 when the Euro was adopted. http://archives.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe/...lead/index.html
In any case would someone be bringing fake Lira to or from Germany? (Let alone Poland)
3) The currency is spelled with an “i”, ‘lyra’ is something else
4) I’ve seen no indication the every was anything known as “interbank Italian Lira”.
5) “Millions in Italian Lira” was not a lot of money even if it were real “€ =1936.27₤”
6) There are no “e’s” in Barbara Olson’s name
7) Almost 2 years later no one else has picked up on the story.
However I do believe it’s possible someone named Barabara Olsen was arrested on one of Austia’s borders with another country with ‘millions in fake antique Italian lyres’
CIA, French intelligence kill 4, capture 5 Israelis in NY subway attack
U.S. media and NY officials called the incident a "significant, specific threat"
by Tom Flocco
New York City -- October 6, 2005 -- TomFlocco.com -- Earlier this evening intelligence members of the American-French Alliance stopped an attempt by Israeli Mossad operatives to blow up the New York City subway, according to national security and U.S. intelligence expert Thomas Heneghan.
The federal whistleblower said four Israelis were killed in the altercation and five more were captured just minutes after virtually all U.S. cable news channels, network TV outlets and New York Mayor Richard Bloomberg were reporting their own version of the incident, saying that New York City was "facing a significant, specific threat" in the city's subway.
Problems with story:
1) Are we to believe there was a shootout on a subway in the “media capital” of the world around rush hour (“Earlier this evening”) in which 4 were killed and 5 arrested but no one but Flocco picked up on it?
2) There is no evidence Flocco favorite intelligence agency “the American-French Alliance” exists, find me a reference to it that doesn’t come from him or one of his sidekicks like Stew Webb
3) Amazing that the AFA agents were able to take down 9 of their Mossad counter parts with no reported casualties.
Flocco also indicated that Hunter S. Thompson committed suicide due to his ties to the “White House child sex ring” he and Larry King made a “child murder-sex film” http://tomflocco.com/fs/PhotographerTied.htm
I find reading Flocco far more entertaining than the Weekly World News!
His ridiculously stupid story that Bush Sr. and Jr. and an elderly Mossad agent personally sabotaged the plane and that the Clintons were in on it too was debunked here:
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=4974
The crash was also discussed here
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=8306
I’ve never had problems with th search engine that lasted more than a few seconds.
The search engine didn't work for me and it's not the first time. I still feel Tom Flocco is publishing the truth about John Kennedy Jr being murdered. There are many "conspiracies" that are odd. Like Chappaquiddick, 9/11, Flight 800 TWA, UFOs, Marilyn Monroe murdered, etc. I need someone to weigh in on this, whether Flocco is "tabloid" or not. BTW, I did not find Flocco on my own; someone very knowledgeable introduced me to the site, telling me Barbara Olson was found alive. I took it that Flocco was a reputable journalist. I guess I was "hoaxed" into believing this. And this same person also believed in Alex Jones.
I would like Terry Mauro to tell me if Tom Flocco is "tabloid journalism." How do you know who and what to believe?
Kathy
***************************************************************************
"I would like Terry Mauro to tell me if Tom Flocco is "tabloid journalism." How do you know who and what to believe?"
Kath, as I stated in my e-mail reply to you last night. I've never even heard of Tom Flocco. You see, I don't have cable, nor watch commercial TV [stations 2 through 13], so my only forms of visual media information consist of viewing the three PBS stations available to me, here in Southern California. And, even then my time is limited due to my work schedule. I barely have time to go on-line, let alone to the forums during the week. Answering and clearing out my e-mails is about all I have time for, Monday through Friday.
Sorry, I can't offer an opinion. But, surely you must have surmised by now, what I consider to be tabloid journalism? Though, certain formats of "talk radio" fall into that category very easily, for me. Rush Limbaugh, for one. That female, Dr. Laura is another one. But, I'm not one for radio these days, either. So, I guess I can't be of much help to you on that count.
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This nasty must have come from the pen of Josiah Thompson. It certainly does not read like something a woman would have written. O'Reilly is tough. Compare my appearances on "Hannity & Colmes", which are also archived on YouTube. Try either http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojY4VF52JJQ...ted&search= (Norman Mineta's retirement was announced the next morning) or(where I was even able to say they had their "facts Foxed" for the second time).
Several years ago, I had an inappropriate relationship with a woman, who happened to be the Chancellor's best friend. For reasons I still do not understand, she turned on me and I paid for it. I retired several years later, after 35 years teaching logic, critical thinking, and scientific reasoning. It was a great career. Anyone who wants to check it can visit http://www.d.umn.edu/~jfetzer/ for themselves. If Tink was not behind this post, which trades on rather obscure information, I will eat my hat! Someone around here is a pussy, but it ain't me.
Anyone with a serious interest in Bugliosi's book should visit http://www.assassinationscience.com, especially the section entited "The Latest on JFK", which includes a recent piece by Gerald Posner, my response, the H. L. Hunt "confession", a piece I published in THE INTERNATIONAL JOURNAL OF THE HUMANITIES, and reviews of Bugliosi's book by David Mantik and me. That might provide a more suitable basis for drawing inferences about my ability to debate the author of this monstrous book than this carefully contrived attack. I would relish the opportunity to confront him in a public forum.
Well, I know of one person who shouldn't debate Bugliosi: Jim Fetzer. I just saw him interviewed by Bill O'Reilly on youtube.com. I don't know if I'm allowed to say this on the Forum, but he came across like such a pussy! No substance to him! At least try to talk over O'Reilly. He sat there like a mummy. I also think he should have dressed better. Oh, and I was surprised he's a retired Professor. Didn't they throw him out for some reason? Harrassing a woman or something?See if you agree:
Kathy
Jim Fetzer -- I apologize to you. I know things that go on in people's private lives and the unfairness that can develop out of it. I do not know Josiah Thompson. It was 100% my opinion. I came across the video by accident. It seemed he walked all over you and you just let him go on and on. What you should do is yell over him with your opinions or facts. It's better than sitting there quiet. He kept calling you a nut, and so he's saying it about all of us.
Maybe you'll remember me. I was the one who sent emails out one morning before dawn while in an altered sleep state. The admin at that forum called me the Manchurian Candidate and it was about Jane Fonda. And you published it in some local free newspaper along with my name. Remember?
God help us all.
Kathy
*********************************************************************
Thanks for stating that, Kath.
Ter
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Deleted duplicate post by T. Mauro on 7-14-07 at 11:50 PDT
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The James Bond novels of Ian Lancaster Fleming invaded my consciousness when I was thirteen years old.
Fleming remains one of the most interesting yet least appreciated (for his knowledge, access, and influence) of Cold Warriors. Many of the Bond saga's plots and characters hint at the depth of their creator's knowledge of and insight into some of the deepest secrets of the period -- some of which are zealously protected to this day.
Take, for example, the KGB assassin "Red" Grant, who stalks 007 in From Russia with Love. In "Granitski," Fleming presents us with a lunar cycle serial killer whose predilections are observed, shaped, controlled, and utilized by what today we would describe as the Soviet's versions of MK/ULTRA and ARTICHOKE manipulators.
FRWL appeared on April 8, 1957!
(Note too that, when Grant assumes the cover of an MI6 officer sent to facilitate Bond's return from the USSR with the LEKTOR coding device, he uses the surname "Nash" -- which is the transliteration of the Russian slang for "one of ours." Fleming spoke Russian.)
Then there's the alliance between Bond/MI6 and the Corsican mob, as depicted in On Her Majesty's Secret Service. One suspects that the affection and respect displayed by 007 for Marc-Ange Draco, putative leader of the Union Corse, was inspired in Fleming by all too real relationships within the secret world.
And what to make of SPECTRE (the Special Executive for Counterintelligence, Terrorism, Revenge, and Extortion -- emphasis added), a private enterprise made up of former intelligence operatives and other criminals that routinely deals in false flag operations and is motivated solely by greed?
A tad familiar, perhaps?
Fleming, of course, was a noted journalist. And so the MOCKINGBIRD warbles and the Mighty Wurlitzer wails throughout his fictions.
We're not surprised, then, that newsman Richard Hughes does indeed equal Dikko Henderson in You Only Live Twice. And John le Carre didn't hesitate to transfigure Hughes into William Craw for The Honourable Schoolboy.
Kudos to Sterling Seagrave and Bill Kelly for understanding the other-than-literary significance of Fleming and noting it in the "Asian Connections" thread.
Sterling: Since you're but a single degree of separation from Fleming, we'd be most grateful for your input here.
you only live twice
once when you are born
once when you look death in the face
-- after Bassho, Japanese poet
Ian Fleming's last words are reported to have been, "It's all been a tremendous lark."
Perhaps it is better to travel hopefully than to arrive.
Charles Drago
*************************************************************************
They've paved paradise and put up a parking lot.
It's now a resort! Originally built by Fleming and located in Oracabessa, pronounced as Or-rock-a-bay-sa. I love saying that name. Oracabessa. Oracabessa.
I love Jamaica. Stayed at the Sans Souci in Ocho Rios, pronounced as O-cho-chair-as by the locals.
Ter
_________________________________________________________________________
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Goldeneye Village 1 Bedroom Cottage
One queen bed in bedroom. Living, dining and kitchen area opens onto secluded patio adjoining private cove. Located under giant banyan tree. Easy access to Low Cay Beach. Indoor bathroom and outdoor bamboo shower. CD player and CD library. Internet access. Batik-print bathrobes and slippers.
Goldeneye Village 2 Bedroom Cottage
One king bed in upstairs bedroom. One queen bed in downstairs bedroom. Ocean view. Private patio faces Low Cay Beach. Located on bluff by the sea. Upstairs bathroom. Downstairs bathroom. Outdoor bamboo shower. Kitchenette; stocked bar. CD player and CD library. Internet access. Batik-print bathrobes and slippers.
Goldeneye Village 3 Bedroom Cottage
Three cottages are included in this unit. Two cottages with two queen beds; one cottage with two twin beds. Deck with steps leading to secluded patio. Located on a cliff edge overlooking ocean canal and Low Cay Beach. Access to covered communal dining area and bar; entertainment lounge. CD player and CD library. Internet access. Batik-print bathrobes and slippers.
Ian Fleming Main House
One king bed, one queen bed, and two twin beds (king, queen, and two twins are in three separate bedrooms). Ian Fleming's original house. Ocean view. Garden baths and showers. Pool. Private beach. Professional kitchen. Media room. CD player and CD library. Internet access. Batik-print bathrobes and slippers. Master bedroom features Ian Fleming's original writing desk, made from Jamaican blue mahoe.
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Duplicate post deleted by T. Mauro on 7-14-07 at 11:11 PDT
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The "new" CIA is reviving one of its oldest dirty tricks with this Bobby Kennedy smear. And yes, consider the sources-- Kissinger and Helms. I explain the genesis of this attack on RFK in my book. I just blogged about it in Salon. Here's part of what I wrote:
The CIA's new honesty is also far from complete. There is nothing in the family jewels about agency officials long suspected by congressional investigators and researchers of ties to the Kennedy assassination, including deceased agents such as William Harvey, David Phillips, David Morales and George Joannides. The agency continues to keep these records under wraps, in brazen defiance of the law.
In fact, the agency could not help taking another whack at the Kennedys with the release of its family jewels. Press reports about the declassified CIA secrets laid the blame for the assassination efforts against Fidel Castro directly on then-Attorney General Robert Kennedy. What's the original source for this anti-Kennedy smear? None other than Richard Helms, the No. 2 man at the CIA during the Kennedy presidency and a bitter enemy of the two brothers.
Helms, desperately trying to head off congressional investigations into CIA abuses in the post-Watergate period, warned that he would drag RFK -- by then conveniently dead -- into the Castro controversy. By doing this, the wily Helms was clearly trying to intimidate the Democratic-controlled Congress. At a lunch meeting in January 1975, Helms told his friend Secretary of State Henry Kissinger that "Robert Kennedy personally managed the operation on the assassination of Castro" -- confident that Kissinger would spread this around Washington, as he quickly did. Helms knew his accusation against RFK was a lie, and when later pressed by the Church Committee to provide proof, he could not, admitting that the CIA had misled Bobby about its plots. In truth, RFK was appalled when he learned that the agency was collaborating with the Mafia to kill Castro -- and Kennedy believed that he shut down this sinister operation. But he did not succeed -- the CIA continued to conspire against Castro for years after the Kennedys were removed from power.
Spreading poisonous disinformation about the Kennedys has long been one of the CIA's oldest family jewels. Helms' loyal aide Sam Halpern was a master at disseminating these lies to the press for years. But don't expect the agency to come clean about this any time soon.
PS The fact that media is once again falling for this old lie -- including NPR's Daniel Schorr, the blithering idiot Chris Matthews, CNN etc -- once again shows how deeply misinformed the press is about this hugely important chapter in our history. I can't tell you how fed up I am with my profession.
The whole Kissinger/Helms story that RFK was behind plots to kill Castro was new to me when it recently made news, but then I just read the same story (Intelligence Wars, NYRB, 2004) in a Thomas Powers New York Review of Books from February 4, 1999.
Thomas Powers, who of Oswald, in the chapter called The Mind of the Assassin, after reviewing most of his intelligence related activities, writes, "Oswald's Tale brings us right up to the pinch-lipped misery and sour odor of the man. He borught pain to many and happiness to none. Anger is what this makes me feel. It was an insect that brought Kennedy down. Would to God he had popped first beneath somebody's foot."
Powers then joins forces with Mad Max Holland and Dark Slyd Hersh, not in a search for the truth, but to step on Bobby the Bug, whose been dead eight years when, as Powers says, these words were "written down in the heat of a government crisis, the words of a man [Henry Kiss] in a position to know [bK: and known to lie], recorded on the day, perhaps even within the hour, they were uttered."
As Powers puts it (p.372-373), "...The secrets a the heart of secrets are rarely confided to official paper or the appropriate files. The deepest secrets of all have nothing to do with the burn time of ballistic missiles, the configuration of fissionable material in nuclear weapons, or other technical matters, but rather with what presidents want. Those are what ancient Chinese writer about war and statecraft Sun-tzu called 'mouth-to-mouth" matters."
"One such surfaced recently when the Assassinations Records Review Board released a two-page 'Memorandum of Conversation' from Gerald Ford Presidential Library recording some comments of Henry Kissinger on January 4, 1975, during a discussion of news stories by Seymour Hersh claiming extensive wrongdoing by the CIA."
"According to Max Holland, who is writing a book about the Warren Commission, Kissinger, then serving as both Ford's secretary of state and his national security advisor, had sought a blanket denial from the agency but had been infromed by William Colby that some major secrets remain hidden. A former director, Richard Helms, was summoned back to Washington from his post as Amabassador to Iran to fill in the details for Kissinger at a breakfast meeting shrotly before Kissinger met in the White House with President Ford and Brent Scowcroft, who was taking notes."
"'Helms said all these stories are just the tip of the iceberg,' Kissinger said, as recorded by Scowcroft during the meeting with Ford. 'If they come out, blood will flow. For example, Robert Kennedy personally managed the operation on the assassination of Castro.'"
"The friends and defenders of the Kennedy brothers say it isn't so; but there it is on paper, written down in the heat of government crisis, the words of a man in a position to know, recorded on the day, perhaps even within the very hour, they were uttered."
"Holland and Hersh, still on the case, also learned recently the name of the CIA intelligence officer named to serve as liaison with the attorney general during the year in which he continually pressed the CIA for results in getting rid of Castro - a career intelligence officer, now dead, named Charles Ford."
"According to Ford's office-mate Sam Halpern, a CIA officfer also assigned to Task Force W in the agency's effort to get rid of Castro, Ford traveled hither and yon about the country on Robert Kennedy's business, but there public knowlege comes to an end. Hersh's book The Dark Side of Camelot, published in 1998, includes some addiional ancillary detail. Whether still-classified CIA files can fill out the story of Ford's work for Bobby remains unknown but it's likely, just as it is likely no one will be given free range of the files until many, many additional years have passed, if then."
"Think of the CIA's files as the nation's unconscious. There you may find the evidence, like the gouges on rock where a glacer has passed, of what American leaders really thought, really wanted, and really did - important clues to who we are as a people. Does this eternal battle over access to the files make sense when few still care what happened at the Bay of Pigs? Does it matter whether we are permitted to haul up the last piece of paper to the light of day before letting it rest? There is no right anwer, just personal preferences: some would rather know, and some would rather not."
"[Mad Max] Holland and [Dark Slyd] Hersh, still on the case....." are undobutedly sill chasing down Charles Ford and what he was doing for "Bobby" traveling "hither and yon," the office-mate to Sam Halpern, the sill-alive CIA officer also assigned to Task Force W., who also hates Kennedy.
Now that Bugliosi is fizzling out, I'm sure we will soon receive a barage of broadsides from the likes of Powers, Holland and Hersh.
BK
The note writing, record keeping General Brent Scowcroft served directly under
presidents Nixon, Ford, Reagan, Bush Sr. and now with Bush Jr.
Scowcroft is only one of several thousands of Mormons imbeded within influencial
positions of U.S. Government Administrations.
It is urgent, that JFK Researchers expose such powerful socio/religious/politico
combinations!
Harry
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"Scowcroft is only one of several thousands of Mormons imbeded within influencial
positions of U.S. Government Administrations.
It is urgent, that JFK Researchers expose such powerful socio/religious/politico
combinations!"
How are you, Harry? And, so right you are!
Is it safe to lump the John Birchers' in with them, or am I just whistling down a well?
Plus, isn't obvious how the theory of "Separation of Church and State" never seemed to pertain to these privileged
classes, who in reality never amounted to anything more than a bunch of holy-rollers? Talk about Islamic fundamentalists,
these Christian guys are just as deadly.
Hi, Terry
Am in great shape as always, how are you doing?
Cant say whats safe, but the Birch Society 'is' lumped in with 'them' politically wise as an invention of, and subversive political extention by 'them'.
{see Forum Index re; Harry J.Dean}
Until later,always nice to talk with you Terry.
Harry
*********************************************************************
Hey Harry,
Are you anywhere out here, by me?
Please contact me: tmauro@pacbell.net
If it's conducive with you, I'd like to hook up, if you might possibly have some time in the near future?
Ter
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This nasty must have come from the pen of Josiah Thompson. It certainly does not read like something a woman would have written. O'Reilly is tough. Compare my appearances on "Hannity & Colmes", which are also archived on YouTube. Try either http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojY4VF52JJQ...ted&search= (Norman Mineta's retirement was announced the next morning) or(where I was even able to say they had their "facts Foxed" for the second time).
Several years ago, I had an inappropriate relationship with a woman, who happened to be the Chancellor's best friend. For reasons I still do not understand, she turned on me and I paid for it. I retired several years later, after 35 years teaching logic, critical thinking, and scientific reasoning. It was a great career. Anyone who wants to check it can visit http://www.d.umn.edu/~jfetzer/ for themselves. If Tink was not behind this post, which trades on rather obscure information, I will eat my hat! Someone around here is a pussy, but it ain't me.
Anyone with a serious interest in Bugliosi's book should visit http://www.assassinationscience.com, especially the section entited "The Latest on JFK", which includes a recent piece by Gerald Posner, my response, the H. L. Hunt "confession", a piece I published in THE INTERNATIONAL JOURNAL OF THE HUMANITIES, and reviews of Bugliosi's book by David Mantik and me. That might provide a more suitable basis for drawing inferences about my ability to debate the author of this monstrous book than this carefully contrived attack. I would relish the opportunity to confront him in a public forum.
Well, I know of one person who shouldn't debate Bugliosi: Jim Fetzer. I just saw him interviewed by Bill O'Reilly on youtube.com. I don't know if I'm allowed to say this on the Forum, but he came across like such a pussy! No substance to him! At least try to talk over O'Reilly. He sat there like a mummy. I also think he should have dressed better. Oh, and I was surprised he's a retired Professor. Didn't they throw him out for some reason? Harrassing a woman or something?See if you agree:
Kathy
**************************************************************************
I agree with C.D., Fetz. You don't owe anyone an explanation. Your work, and the collaboration you've had with Mantik, Lifton, Healy, and White, your contribution to the Lancer Conferences, your association with Len Osanic and Prouty's forum, should speak for itself. Although, I wasn't too keen on the "rain sensor" chapter in the original printing, I realize it wasn't your initial idea, and more of an oversight, compared to the body of work you've done over the years to advance this case.
Your personal life is your own, and any female's apparent hormonal imbalance, whether PMS, or pre-menopausal, which is what it seemed to smack of from my
personal assessment of the whole scam that was leveled at you, has no relevance when it comes to judging your competency as a writer, a researcher, or as an investigator. In my humble opinion, you were set up and framed. That's how it appeared to me. Similar to what they tried to do to Wecht. Obviously.
Ter
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Bugliosi is a prosecutor. He is good at that. Mark Lane is a defense attorney. He fought and won the case against "Spotlight" and E. Howard Hunt. Lane may be the most skilled adversary.
However, I do agree that 'debating' per se will probably get nowhere, unless the debate appropriately orients RH. It is, in fact, documentation of the ongoing coverup. It is WC redux. It is shameless in its ignoring even HSCA in order to claim LHO acted alone. So the issue to 'debate', if there is one, is why the LHO/LNT myth is being dragged out yet again after so many years.
*****************************************************************
"Mark Lane is a defense attorney. He fought and won the case against "Spotlight" and E. Howard Hunt. Lane may be the most skilled adversary."
I'd like to see him teamed up with Fonzi, and Doug Horne, as well.
"However, I do agree that 'debating' per se will probably get nowhere, unless the debate appropriately orients RH. It is, in fact, documentation of the ongoing coverup. It is WC redux. It is shameless in its ignoring even HSCA in order to claim LHO acted alone."
And, let us not forget who hobbled that committee's efforts after Johannides was given a position on it.
-
Well, I know of one person who shouldn't debate Bugliosi: Jim Fetzer. I just saw him interviewed by Bill O'Reilly on youtube.com. I don't know if I'm allowed to say this on the Forum, but he came across like such a pussy! No substance to him! At least try to talk over O'Reilly. He sat there like a mummy. I also think he should have dressed better. Oh, and I was surprised he's a retired Professor. Didn't they throw him out for some reason? Harrassing a woman or something?
See if you agree:
Kathy
*******************************************************************
Kathleen. That's not the kind of way to win friends and influence people. Dig yourself! Totally inappropriate.
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there are only two current candidates I would consider...Dr. Ron Paul and Fred Thompson.
Thompson was reportedly a Nixon mole on the Watergate committee. If true, he's just what we need, in the fine tradition of Ford (later president) on the WC, Rockefeller (tried hard to be president) on the Rockefeller Commission, and just about everybody on the 9/11 Conflict of Interest Commission.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/worl...icle2042079.ece
********************************************************************************
Whatever happened to Edwards?
Hillary's a woman. How the hell is she ever going to get in? Women will always be tokens used to swing the popular vote, or split it. Only a man will be allowed to get elected. You can bet your sweet "electoral college" on that one!
Mr. Bockman, it's known as Operation Mockingbird, put into effect in 1947 as a joint effort between the U.S. and the British branch of the O.S.S. It was dreamed up just as the invention of television was about to be thrust upon the unsuspecting world. Visual aids could be used to control and manipulate large sectors of the populace. Especially, in the lucrative areas where this phenomenon was scheduled to be marketed. Thus, enabling those who would be electronically "plugged in" to receive visual broadcastings including advertisements which would be presented in the most appealing and attractive surroundings, touting what great things could be made, what great journeys and adventures awaited the nuclear family, and which soap, detergent, or hand lotion offered the finest results for the willing consumers, ready to spend their money on these products. Control and manipulation of supply and demand via visually stimulating and attractive packaging of product. The subliminal sales pitch was born.
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Another damned double duplicate post. Deleted by T. Mauro 7-10-07 0800 hrs PDT
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]
"OJ Simpson went to a fast food place with Kato to buy some Methamphetamine. Kato lied about that. Otherwise, I don't see how Simpson could do such a savage thing in such a short period of time unless his blood was raging. It was superhuman."
O.J.'s son, Jason committed the murders. Nicole was a raging coke-head, which is why O.J. left her in the first place. Her, and her floozy of a sister, and their high-class hooker friend, Fran Resnick.
Where did you read this, Terry, about Jason committing the murders? I'd really like to know. OJ left a note to Jason to read to the public after his acquittal. Jason looked very disturbed, read the note angrily; and I've read that as the verdict was being read, Jason was in a fetal position on the floor near his relatives, crying.
Also, why are these women "floozies"? OK, it bugged me when Faye Resnick used to tell Geraldo or someone how all her husbands were very rich. But I don't see how she's harming anybody. The rich get rich and the poor get poorer.
Goldman's girlfriend was an Ultrasound tech in one of the hospital's I worked at. She, and the Goldman's, came west from Palm Beach, FL a year or two before the murders. Goldman was an "aspiring" actor who bussed tables at Mezzaluna, which also served as a clandestine business-distribution center for his "other" customers, such as Nicole Simpson. His girlfriend, the U/S tech, drove a late model Porsche Carrera. She hated Nicole. The last time I saw her she was packing some boxes off for the post office, "Christmas presents," and left town headed back to Florida in December 1994.
Now when you say his other customers, are you inferring that Ronald Goldman was a male prostitute or a drug dealer?
Cocaine alters the binding sites in the brain, permanently by causing a glitch in the DNA chain of the body's cellular system, so that each new cell becomes embedded with the new link in the DNA chain, making it virtually impossible for the neurotransmitter enzymes to recognize the newly altered binding sites. Henceforth, making it virtually impossible to kick the habit. Much the same as those other two drugs which happen to be legal and just as hard to kick, nicotine, and alcohol.
I'm glad I never indulged in street drugs.
"At night, Irv would go out on the town with his glamourous wife, the red-headed Essee, a former dancer with a college degree. As a young woman, she was like today's Paris Hilton. It was all about being pretty and being seen. This her grandson said. The night clubs served as a venue for visiting celebs who had a stopover in Chicago. It was fodder for his column. He really lived a great life and was in 2 movies: Advise and Consent and Anatomy of a Murder, directed by his good friend Otto Preminger. --"
That's not saying very much about someone whose daughter has been murdered. Especially, the way you portray this family's shallow, ignorant behavior. I, for one, had never even heard of Irv Kupcinet until I hit the forums. I never remember him on any of the sportscasts out of New York, or L.A. So, what exactly was he? An actor? A talk show host? A sportscaster? A minor celebrity-about-town? Chicago? If he lived such a great life, and his wife was so beautiful, how come they couldn't save their daughter from a fate worse than death, which is what it seems to be wreaking [you mean reeking] of, at this late date?
Irv was never a shallow man, especially with his Zionism. He was a well-informed person. Essee had her faults. She lived precariously through her daughter; even the housekeeper of 40 years said that. She'd walk right past you, even if you were a friend of Irv's. But if you were a celeb, you had her complete attention.
If you were a friend of the family's, why didn't you speak up about the dysfunction you apparently were witness to, at the time. I mean, after all, you couldn't have been that star-struck with Essee to not have brought to her attention what seemed to be her total lack of empathy for her own daughter, let alone how obvious it might have appeared to outsiders. I mean, like what exactly was her take on all of this? It seems as if it was more of a bother to her than a tragedy. Like, "Oh my poor, little, pudgy daughter has now found peace." Or, more likely, "Well, at least I won't have to be embarrassed any longer by this dumpy little thing I brought into the world."
Terry, I don't know where you got the idea that I was a friend of the family's. The Kupcinets were well aware of me. Now I'm on the Karyn Kupcinet yahoo site, which is overseen by Kari Kupcinet, Karyn's niece, who never met her. They were not crazy about the link to the Kennedy Assassination. And disliked James Ellroy's take on how Karyn died. I don't blame them. And then they died.
After Essee died, Irv was in a wheelchair (heart troubles) and was being interviewed about his daughter. The reporter asked him if she could have killed herself. And as old as he was, he was quick to anger. He said, "It was our fault. We never should have cut the apron strings so early."
For such wonderful people as you seem to make them out to be, I fail to note any redeeming aspects of their personalities that might lead me to believe they were nothing more than self-absorbed limelight addicts, more interested in their public personnas than in what their superficial attitudes may have wrought along with the effects they may have had, on their not-so-spectacular little girl.
Well the not so spectacular little girl had a genuis IQ. She wanted to be an actress, not a star. Her parents, particularly her mother, put a lot of stress on her. She felt she was disappointing them anytime she was rejected for a role.
I feel she should have gone into Journalism, something like that. One male friend said, "She had more books than any girl I know." I wish Irv had pushed her to go after a Journalism degree. She should have gone somewhere to be alone and see what she wanted to be. She could have been a novelist or a playwright. When you come out and say she was mediocre, she didn't live long enough to be her own person. She didn't know who she was.'
Also, the chief investigator of her murder said, "This girl has more friends than anyone else I've ever known." Carol Lynley told of her courage and generosity. No, she was not mediocre. I just think she was in the wrong business or the wrong end of it.
****************************************************************************
"...are you inferring that Ronald Goldman was a male prostitute or a drug dealer?"
When I was attending a couple of law classes at CSU Dominguez Hills [aka South Central "Ghetto" U.] during the Fall semester 1994 - Spring semester 1995,
a lot of information came down the pike from the "inside" connection to those incarcerated from the "Three Strikes" amendment that had recently been enacted in CA the previous year, 1993. Let's just say that his name was well-known in certain circles.
"Also, why are these women "floozies"?"
O.K., then. They were cocaine abusers. That's an extremely expensive habit, as well as a "permanent" mind and personality altering drug. I've had firsthand experience in watching my daughter's father, and a once "best girlfriend" of mine, degenerate into state of delusional paranoia that would rival any naturally occurring pathological psychoses I've had to "opportunity" to observe in any psych ward, of any institution, of which I've ever been employed. And, I've seen enough of these cases in my career of 32 years to recognize the telltale signs, on sight.
"Terry, I don't know where you got the idea that I was a friend of the family's. The Kupcinets were well aware of me."
Well, the way you write about them, one would think you might have been a relative.
"Irv was never a shallow man, especially with his Zionism. He was a well-informed person. Essee had her faults. She lived precariously through her daughter; even the housekeeper of 40 years said that. She'd walk right past you, even if you were a friend of Irv's. But if you were a celeb, you had her complete attention."
He should have dumped her sorry ass a long time ago.
"Well the not so spectacular little girl had a genuis IQ. She wanted to be an actress, not a star. Her parents, particularly her mother, put a lot of stress on her. She felt she was disappointing them anytime she was rejected for a role.
I feel she should have gone into Journalism, something like that."
Then, her father should have recognized how gifted his daughter really was. He should have made a concerted effort to guide her in the direction of journalism, or a profession more suitable to her intellectual abilities. Instead, he sat idly by while his plastic fantastic wife set his daughter up for failure by allowing "Essee" to push her into one of the most competitive and self-esteem-destroying careers imaginable. I don't care how devoted a "zionist" he was. He wasn't paying attention to where his daughter's life was headed. She was on a collision course with disaster. Especially, if acting was not her major calling. She obviously wasn't a Tuesday Weld, a Sandra Dee, a Stephanie Powers, a Susan Strasberg, or even a Natalie Wood, for that matter. For her to have been thrown into that sort of competition was ridiculous. He was a "failure" as a father. Shoulda, woulda, coulda.
Send me your address and I'll have Amazon.com ship both books off to you. William Dear's and Talbot's. William Dear's is essential to understanding exactly how character assassination, especially by Operation Mockingbird's media apparatus, is always at the ready to take down someone they never quite thought should have attained the success they had amassed, regardless of the hard work they spent in doing so. And, especially if they'd had the unmitigated gall to have married a white woman in the interim. That's exactly how they view it. And, if you think otherwise, you're naive.
I remember this as if it were yesterday, right on national T.V., after O.J. and his long-time friend Al had taken that ride to the cemetary in Lake Forest. While they were waiting for O.J. to arrive at the city jail, that Marsha, whatever the hell her name was, and Garcetti were waiting on the steps at the back door of the jail, and Marsha, uttered these words, "We've got the murderer." Or, words to that effect. And, I was immediately transported back to 11-22-63, and amazed at the sheer ignorance of "due process" being afforded another supposed, or at least should have been supposed, "suspect."
tmauro@pacbell.net
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"Speed has often been associated with sudden, violent rage."
If she was the one who was supposed to have been a "speed freak," what would she have been "enraged" about?
I was just trying to tell you how potent is Desoxyn or Crystal Meth.
"I think of the case of Army Doctor Jeffrey McDonald or imo O.J. Simpson."
Pardon my utter stupidity, but I was under the impression that the drug of choice, in those instances, was cocaine.
Absolutely not. Dr. McDonald was taking a lot of speed because of the hours they make new doctors work in hospitals. OJ Simpson went to a fast food place with Kato to buy some Methamphetamine. Kato lied about that. Otherwise, I don't see how Simpson could do such a savage thing in such a short period of time unless his blood was raging. It was superhuman.
"...she was murdered to crush her dad and keep him away from the Chicago angle of the Assassination."
Irv was always angry at himself for not bringing in a private detective. The cops talked him out of it. It's possible that Irv didn't think his mobster friends would do something like that to him -- if it was the mob behind the hit. They offered to go to L.A. and find out more of what happened to her. Irv declined. Irv knew enough not to ask a favor of the Mafia. You always owe them. Irv did take thousands of gifts from his audience and people who wanted to get in good with him -- a mention in his column -- like at Christmas time.
Irv was in complete denial imo. He would take gifts from anyone -- not the policy today -- but he stayed away from the Mob. I never confirmed this, but somebody said he never discussed the Assassination again in his column until JFK came out and he was outraged. There was no conspiracy.
****************************************
And, he finally clammed up about it? Why would that stop him? If anything, he might have gotten himself into a witness protection program and been able to "ghost write" his own version of what he thought happened, or did the Feds warn him to put a lid on it, as well? What kind of a columnist or news anchor was he, anyway? A "Larry King" type of a format? I forget. Maybe that's why it seems so insignificant in the realm of everything else surrounding this case.
Your solution is too far fetched. Who wants to stay in seclusion for the rest of their lives? What would he do? Irv had Kup's Show where he invited celebs and people from all walks of life and they would talk until they ran out of things to say. Later, he chopped it down to one hour. It was a late night program. He also had a column in the Chicago-Sun-Times. Basically, it was a gossip column. But Irv thought of himself as a serious journalist. He was the first to tell the public about DeLorean, who was trafficking in drugs. DeLorean made that car where the doors opened up from the top. Johnny Carson had one. DeLorean was married to an ex-model. She left him and quickly married another man. I think her name was Christine. She did some movies like The Impossible Years, 1968, written by Groucho Marx's son. --Kathy
At night, Irv would go out on the town with his glamourous wife, the red-headed Essee, a former dancer with a college degree. As a young woman, she was like today's Paris Hilton. It was all about being pretty and being seen. This her grandson said. The night clubs served as a venue for visiting celebs who had a stopover in Chicago. It was fodder for his column. He really lived a great life and was in 2 movies: Advise and Consent and Anatomy of a Murder, directed by his good friend Otto Preminger. -- Kathy
I hope you're right, and I hope you find what you're looking for. And, most of all, I hope it's in direct relevance to the case in point. Otherwise, Kupcinet could go down in history known as someone too scared to have avenged the death of his own daughter. Which would seem preposterous to me, considering the fact that he might also risk appearing to be some lily-livered chicken Sugar-Honey-Iced-Tea, for allowing himself to be cowed by the mob. Was his life, or his wife's, or his whole damned family's lives that much more important than to have passed on an investigation he had already embarked upon. Especially, coming right on the heels of his daughter's death?
Are you serious? Yes, he must have feared for his family. He had a son Jerry and a beautiful, if ireverent, wife. Kupcinet will go down in history as being a great Humanitarian. He had so many friends. He never wrote anything bad about anyone, unless it was Andrew Prine or the late David Lange. -- Kathy
A daughter is a daughter, regardless of whether she's a whore, a drug addict, an alcoholic, or a common thief. If there's one thing the mob believes in, it's HONOR. HONOR, and FAMILY. If the term "outraged," could be used in the proper perspective here, it should have been Irv Kupcinet, who should have gone after those he suspected of killing his daughter, of attacking the sanctity of his FAMILY, and with a vengeance. HONOR, a virtue of which Irv Kupcinet seems to be glaringly lacking, therein.
You are absolutely wrong! He will go down in history as a great man. Irv wasn't a Mob member, but he was a Zionist; and I think it hurt him when Cookie (Karyn) had to get a nose job for Hollywood. She had his features -- including what some people would call a Jewish nose. The rhinoplasty killed him. Don Rickles was on his show one time in the '80's and said, "Irv eats birdfeed for breakfast." Then Rickles made pecking motions with his head. It was funny, but Irv wasn't laughing. Not at all. -- Kathy
Someone, FWIW, who obviously never knew the binding promise in the words, to "swear on my daughter's life." He's lucky he didn't end up sleeping with the fishes, himself. At least, that's the way he seems to be coming across from this end of the spectrum. If you want respect, you've got to earn it.
Irv had everyone's respect. He'd been a professional football player. He'd been an innovator on TV. He was a referree in Football and a sports announcer. He wrote everyone's favorite column. People would open the newspaper to read him first.
I feel the opposite -- a person has my respect until they do something to destroy it. I loved Irv and miss him.
Kathy
******************************************************************************
"OJ Simpson went to a fast food place with Kato to buy some Methamphetamine. Kato lied about that. Otherwise, I don't see how Simpson could do such a savage thing in such a short period of time unless his blood was raging. It was superhuman."
O.J.'s son, Jason committed the murders. Nicole was a raging coke-head, which is why O.J. left her in the first place. Her, and her floozy of a sister, and their high-class hooker friend, Fran Resnick. Goldman's girlfriend was an Ultrasound tech in one of the hospital's I worked at. She, and the Goldman's, came west from Palm Beach, FL a year or two before the murders. Goldman was an "aspiring" actor who bussed tables at Mezzaluna, which also served as a clandestine business-distribution center for his "other" customers, such as Nicole Simpson. His girlfriend, the U/S tech, drove a late model Porsche Carrera. She hated Nicole. The last time I saw her she was packing some boxes off for the post office, "Christmas presents," and left town headed back to Florida in December 1994. Cocaine alters the binding sites in the brain, permanently by causing a glitch in the DNA chain of the body's cellular system, so that each new cell becomes embedded with the new link in the DNA chain, making it virtually impossible for the neurotransmitter enzymes to recognize the newly altered binding sites. Henceforth, making it virtually impossible to kick the habit. Much the same as those other two drugs which happen to be legal and just as hard to kick, nicotine, and alcohol.
"At night, Irv would go out on the town with his glamourous wife, the red-headed Essee, a former dancer with a college degree. As a young woman, she was like today's Paris Hilton. It was all about being pretty and being seen. This her grandson said. The night clubs served as a venue for visiting celebs who had a stopover in Chicago. It was fodder for his column. He really lived a great life and was in 2 movies: Advise and Consent and Anatomy of a Murder, directed by his good friend Otto Preminger. --"
That's not saying very much about someone whose daughter has been murdered. Especially, the way you portray this family's shallow, ignorant behavior. I, for one, had never even heard of Irv Kupcinet until I hit the forums. I never remember him on any of the sportscasts out of New York, or L.A. So, what exactly was he? An actor? A talk show host? A sportscaster? A minor celebrity-about-town? Chicago? If he lived such a great life, and his wife was so beautiful, how come they couldn't save their daughter from a fate worse than death, which is what it seems to be wreaking of, at this late date?
If you were a friend of the family's, why didn't you speak up about the dysfunction you apparently were witness to, at the time. I mean, after all, you couldn't have been that star-struck with Essee to not have brought to her attention what seemed to be her total lack of empathy for her own daughter, let alone how obvious it might have appeared to outsiders. I mean, like what exactly was her take on all of this? It seems as if it was more of a bother to her than a tragedy. Like, "Oh my poor, little, pudgy daughter has now found peace." Or, more likely, "Well, at least I won't have to be embarrassed any longer by this dumpy little thing I brought into the world."
For such wonderful people as you seem to make them out to be, I fail to note any redeeming aspects of their personalities that might lead me to believe they were nothing more than self-absorbed limelight addicts, more interested in their public personnas than in what their superficial attitudes may have wrought along with the effects they may have had, on their not-so-spectacular little girl.
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The "new" CIA is reviving one of its oldest dirty tricks with this Bobby Kennedy smear. And yes, consider the sources-- Kissinger and Helms. I explain the genesis of this attack on RFK in my book. I just blogged about it in Salon. Here's part of what I wrote:
The CIA's new honesty is also far from complete. There is nothing in the family jewels about agency officials long suspected by congressional investigators and researchers of ties to the Kennedy assassination, including deceased agents such as William Harvey, David Phillips, David Morales and George Joannides. The agency continues to keep these records under wraps, in brazen defiance of the law.
In fact, the agency could not help taking another whack at the Kennedys with the release of its family jewels. Press reports about the declassified CIA secrets laid the blame for the assassination efforts against Fidel Castro directly on then-Attorney General Robert Kennedy. What's the original source for this anti-Kennedy smear? None other than Richard Helms, the No. 2 man at the CIA during the Kennedy presidency and a bitter enemy of the two brothers.
Helms, desperately trying to head off congressional investigations into CIA abuses in the post-Watergate period, warned that he would drag RFK -- by then conveniently dead -- into the Castro controversy. By doing this, the wily Helms was clearly trying to intimidate the Democratic-controlled Congress. At a lunch meeting in January 1975, Helms told his friend Secretary of State Henry Kissinger that "Robert Kennedy personally managed the operation on the assassination of Castro" -- confident that Kissinger would spread this around Washington, as he quickly did. Helms knew his accusation against RFK was a lie, and when later pressed by the Church Committee to provide proof, he could not, admitting that the CIA had misled Bobby about its plots. In truth, RFK was appalled when he learned that the agency was collaborating with the Mafia to kill Castro -- and Kennedy believed that he shut down this sinister operation. But he did not succeed -- the CIA continued to conspire against Castro for years after the Kennedys were removed from power.
Spreading poisonous disinformation about the Kennedys has long been one of the CIA's oldest family jewels. Helms' loyal aide Sam Halpern was a master at disseminating these lies to the press for years. But don't expect the agency to come clean about this any time soon.
PS The fact that media is once again falling for this old lie -- including NPR's Daniel Schorr, the blithering idiot Chris Matthews, CNN etc -- once again shows how deeply misinformed the press is about this hugely important chapter in our history. I can't tell you how fed up I am with my profession.
The whole Kissinger/Helms story that RFK was behind plots to kill Castro was new to me when it recently made news, but then I just read the same story (Intelligence Wars, NYRB, 2004) in a Thomas Powers New York Review of Books from February 4, 1999.
Thomas Powers, who of Oswald, in the chapter called The Mind of the Assassin, after reviewing most of his intelligence related activities, writes, "Oswald's Tale brings us right up to the pinch-lipped misery and sour odor of the man. He borught pain to many and happiness to none. Anger is what this makes me feel. It was an insect that brought Kennedy down. Would to God he had popped first beneath somebody's foot."
Powers then joins forces with Mad Max Holland and Dark Slyd Hersh, not in a search for the truth, but to step on Bobby the Bug, whose been dead eight years when, as Powers says, these words were "written down in the heat of a government crisis, the words of a man [Henry Kiss] in a position to know [bK: and known to lie], recorded on the day, perhaps even within the hour, they were uttered."
As Powers puts it (p.372-373), "...The secrets a the heart of secrets are rarely confided to official paper or the appropriate files. The deepest secrets of all have nothing to do with the burn time of ballistic missiles, the configuration of fissionable material in nuclear weapons, or other technical matters, but rather with what presidents want. Those are what ancient Chinese writer about war and statecraft Sun-tzu called 'mouth-to-mouth" matters."
"One such surfaced recently when the Assassinations Records Review Board released a two-page 'Memorandum of Conversation' from Gerald Ford Presidential Library recording some comments of Henry Kissinger on January 4, 1975, during a discussion of news stories by Seymour Hersh claiming extensive wrongdoing by the CIA."
"According to Max Holland, who is writing a book about the Warren Commission, Kissinger, then serving as both Ford's secretary of state and his national security advisor, had sought a blanket denial from the agency but had been infromed by William Colby that some major secrets remain hidden. A former director, Richard Helms, was summoned back to Washington from his post as Amabassador to Iran to fill in the details for Kissinger at a breakfast meeting shrotly before Kissinger met in the White House with President Ford and Brent Scowcroft, who was taking notes."
"'Helms said all these stories are just the tip of the iceberg,' Kissinger said, as recorded by Scowcroft during the meeting with Ford. 'If they come out, blood will flow. For example, Robert Kennedy personally managed the operation on the assassination of Castro.'"
"The friends and defenders of the Kennedy brothers say it isn't so; but there it is on paper, written down in the heat of government crisis, the words of a man in a position to know, recorded on the day, perhaps even within the very hour, they were uttered."
"Holland and Hersh, still on the case, also learned recently the name of the CIA intelligence officer named to serve as liaison with the attorney general during the year in which he continually pressed the CIA for results in getting rid of Castro - a career intelligence officer, now dead, named Charles Ford."
"According to Ford's office-mate Sam Halpern, a CIA officfer also assigned to Task Force W in the agency's effort to get rid of Castro, Ford traveled hither and yon about the country on Robert Kennedy's business, but there public knowlege comes to an end. Hersh's book The Dark Side of Camelot, published in 1998, includes some addiional ancillary detail. Whether still-classified CIA files can fill out the story of Ford's work for Bobby remains unknown but it's likely, just as it is likely no one will be given free range of the files until many, many additional years have passed, if then."
"Think of the CIA's files as the nation's unconscious. There you may find the evidence, like the gouges on rock where a glacer has passed, of what American leaders really thought, really wanted, and really did - important clues to who we are as a people. Does this eternal battle over access to the files make sense when few still care what happened at the Bay of Pigs? Does it matter whether we are permitted to haul up the last piece of paper to the light of day before letting it rest? There is no right anwer, just personal preferences: some would rather know, and some would rather not."
"[Mad Max] Holland and [Dark Slyd] Hersh, still on the case....." are undobutedly sill chasing down Charles Ford and what he was doing for "Bobby" traveling "hither and yon," the office-mate to Sam Halpern, the sill-alive CIA officer also assigned to Task Force W., who also hates Kennedy.
Now that Bugliosi is fizzling out, I'm sure we will soon receive a barage of broadsides from the likes of Powers, Holland and Hersh.
BK
The note writing, record keeping General Brent Scowcroft served directly under
presidents Nixon, Ford, Reagan, Bush Sr. and now with Bush Jr.
Scowcroft is only one of several thousands of Mormons imbeded within influencial
positions of U.S. Government Administrations.
It is urgent, that JFK Researchers expose such powerful socio/religious/politico
combinations!
Harry
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"Scowcroft is only one of several thousands of Mormons imbeded within influencial
positions of U.S. Government Administrations.
It is urgent, that JFK Researchers expose such powerful socio/religious/politico
combinations!"
How are you, Harry? And, so right you are!
Is it safe to lump the John Birchers' in with them, or am I just whistling down a well?
Plus, isn't obvious how the theory of "Separation of Church and State" never seemed to pertain to these privileged
classes, who in reality never amounted to anything more than a bunch of holy-rollers? Talk about Islamic fundamentalists,
these Christian guys are just as deadly.
-
Jack,
Technically, there is no such thing as a 'karate chop'. That was something Maxwell Smart used to knock KAOS agents out with.
Many different styles of martial arts utilize knife hand strikes but they don't do a great deal of damage.
Killing a person with one's bare hands is a very difficult thing to do and requires a great deal of training and a certain mind set to get the job done. For professional killers, this is time consuming, leaves trace evidence all over the place and can be clumsy.
If there was a contract out on Koethe, I find it difficult to believe that an idiot like Reno would have been employed.
James
I have Karyn Kupcinet's autopsy report. All the damage was done to her left side throat, leaving the coronor to say the man was very strong, held her from behind and was possibly left handed.
I had read about a method of killing someone which would fit right into the coronor's conclusion. It's called the sleeper method. She was grabbed from behind with an arm around her thoat to cut off the carotid artery on her left side. Death is supposed to be very quick with this method. And the killer has to be very strong. But how hard could it have been to subdue a heavily drugged, petite girl.
I truly fear that in Karyn's case, it was a hit. Irv Kupcinet had what other journalists didn't. He knew everybody in Chicago! He got a handle on Ruby and was going to run with it. Then his daughter turned up dead.
And there were many suspects because she entertained 2 young men that night; good friends of her boyfriend, who didn't want to see her anymore. Also, a new neighbor downstairs had moved in. He was caught in a lie by the police. And he was found to have arrived home drunk about 12:30 am, when the murder happened. Plus another fellow came to see her Friday, but she didn't answer her door so he put a book he was returning (Henry Miller) on her doormat. And she had a boyfriend in Pomona (I hope that's the right spelling). It turned out he had a good 100% alibi.
If you were a hitman, I think you'd hang around and watch her habits. When the 2 men left, the killer struck shortly afterwards. They would be to blame.
The left side of her neck was greatly damaged internally-- her thyroid and other structures on that side. And the hyoid bone was broken. There were no indications of rape, but they found a "copious" amount of a whitish substance in her vagina, which had decomposed and was of no help in finding the killer.
If it is true that she wasn't raped, what motive would any of her friends have to kill her? Methamphetamine in the medicine cabinet? If it was one of the suspects, the drug was easily available as she kept her pills behind the bathroom mirror. Why kill her?
And I think there are killers, employed by Intel, who can administer a karate chop to the neck and kill somebody easily.
Kathy
********************************************************************
"There were no indications of rape, but they found a "copious" amount of a whitish substance in her vagina, which had decomposed and was of no help in finding the killer."
Then, why bring it up?
"If it is true that she wasn't raped, what motive would any of her friends have to kill her? Methamphetamine in the medicine cabinet? If it was one of the suspects, the drug was easily available as she kept her pills behind the bathroom mirror. Why kill her?"
Why, indeed. How did she score her speed? By prescription, or Black Market? If by prescription, no motive, that is, unless she ran around with a bunch of speed freaks who were mainly interested in ripping off her stash. And even then, they could've done that behind her back without having to resort to knocking her out, let alone murdering her. If by Black Market, maybe she hadn't paid her distributor in a timely manner. What does her apparent speed habit have to do with any of this, anyway? Was she killed because she was a "tweak," who might talk? And if so, "talk" about what?
I could see the intrigue, had the drug of choice been "cocaine," or even, "heroin." There was a lucrative market for those substances in the early 1960's. But, prescription speed, diet pills? That could be equivalent to scoring weed, or acid, back in those days. It wasn't even classified as a "3" substance until the Reagan administration decided to "Just Say No." And, the DEA didn't really get to cut its teeth in the drug trafficking world until the mid 1970's when they tried to saturate Oakland with cocaine and this new process, known as "crack."
So. unless someone can shed some light on the reason why Karyn Kupcinet's "diet pill" habit, and not say, a "cocaine" or "heroin" habit may have figured in on her demise, I don't know if I quite follow this line of inquiry. James?
I bring up the rape scenario for purposes of motive. Did she have sex that night? And if so, with whom? Did this person kill her because she thwarted his intentions?
I disagree with you about diet pills. She was taking Methamphetamine. Speed has often been associated with sudden, violent rage. I think of the case of Army Doctor Jeffrey McDonald or imo O.J. Simpson. She may have been very stoned, not thinking straight. She doctor shopped, so had several prescriptions. But if she did buy from the black market, it might explain the walk she took that night while she had a guest in her house. A woman that distraught is not going to stop and exercise. Where did she go? To the Sunset Strip? To the Rain Check Room, where her friends usually hung out? Did she "score" there? Or maybe the guy was going to come through for her around midnight. But she seemed surprised at the knock on the door. Just getting out of the shower, throwing on a bathrobe.
Terry, it is my opinion that she was murdered to crush her dad and keep him away from the Chicago angle of the Assassination. But one must go through all possible scenarios. The murder was never solved. And the Kupcinets' main suspect is dead.
Kathy
********************************************************************
"Speed has often been associated with sudden, violent rage."
If she was the one who was supposed to have been a "speed freak," what would she have been "enraged" about?
"I think of the case of Army Doctor Jeffrey McDonald or imo O.J. Simpson."
Pardon my utter stupidity, but I was under the impression that the drug of choice, in those instances, was cocaine.
"...she was murdered to crush her dad and keep him away from the Chicago angle of the Assassination."
And, he finally clammed up about it? Why would that stop him? If anything, he might have gotten himself into a witness protection program and been able to "ghost write" his own version of what he thought happened, or did the Feds warn him to put a lid on it, as well? What kind of a columnist or news anchor was he, anyway? A "Larry King" type of a format? I forget. Maybe that's why it seems so insignificant in the realm of everything else surrounding this case.
I hope you're right, and I hope you find what you're looking for. And, most of all, I hope it's in direct relevance to the case in point. Otherwise, Kupcinet could go down in history known as someone too scared to have avenged the death of his own daughter. Which would seem preposterous to me, considering the fact that he might also risk appearing to be some lily-livered chicken Sugar-Honey-Iced-Tea, for allowing himself to be cowed by the mob. Was his life, or his wife's, or his whole damned family's lives that much more important than to have passed on an investigation he had already embarked upon. Especially, coming right on the heels of his daughter's death?
A daughter is a daughter, regardless of whether she's a whore, a drug addict, an alcoholic, or a common thief. If there's one thing the mob believes in, it's HONOR. HONOR, and FAMILY. If the term "outraged," could be used in the proper perspective here, it should have been Irv Kupcinet, who should have gone after those he suspected of killing his daughter, of attacking the sanctity of his FAMILY, and with a vengeance. HONOR, a virtue of which Irv Kupcinet seems to be glaringly lacking, therein. Someone, FWIW, who obviously never knew the binding promise in the words, to "swear on my daughter's life." He's lucky he didn't end up sleeping with the fishes, himself. At least, that's the way he seems to be coming across from this end of the spectrum. If you want respect, you've got to earn it.
-
Jack,
Technically, there is no such thing as a 'karate chop'. That was something Maxwell Smart used to knock KAOS agents out with.
Many different styles of martial arts utilize knife hand strikes but they don't do a great deal of damage.
Killing a person with one's bare hands is a very difficult thing to do and requires a great deal of training and a certain mind set to get the job done. For professional killers, this is time consuming, leaves trace evidence all over the place and can be clumsy.
If there was a contract out on Koethe, I find it difficult to believe that an idiot like Reno would have been employed.
James
I have Karyn Kupcinet's autopsy report. All the damage was done to her left side throat, leaving the coronor to say the man was very strong, held her from behind and was possibly left handed.
I had read about a method of killing someone which would fit right into the coronor's conclusion. It's called the sleeper method. She was grabbed from behind with an arm around her throat to cut off the carotid artery on her left side. Death is supposed to be very quick with this method. And the killer has to be very strong. But how hard could it have been to subdue a heavily drugged, petite girl.
I truly fear that in Karyn's case, it was a hit. Irv Kupcinet had what other journalists didn't. He knew everybody in Chicago! He got a handle on Ruby and was going to run with it. Then his daughter turned up dead.
And there were many suspects because she entertained 2 young men that night; good friends of her boyfriend, who didn't want to see her anymore. Also, a new neighbor downstairs had moved in. He was caught in a lie by the police. And he was found to have arrived home drunk about 12:30 am, when the murder happened. Plus another fellow came to see her Friday, but she didn't answer her door so he put a book he was returning (Henry Miller) on her doormat. And she had a boyfriend in Pomona (I hope that's the right spelling). It turned out he had a good 100% alibi.
If you were a hitman, I think you'd hang around and watch her habits. When the 2 men left, the killer struck shortly afterwards. They would be to blame.
The left side of her neck was greatly damaged internally-- her thyroid and other structures on that side. And the hyoid bone was broken. There were no indications of rape, but they found a "copious" amount of a whitish substance in her vagina, which had decomposed and was of no help in finding the killer.
If it is true that she wasn't raped, what motive would any of her friends have to kill her? Methamphetamine in the medicine cabinet? If it was one of the suspects, the drug was easily available as she kept her pills behind the bathroom mirror. Why kill her?
And I think there are killers, employed by Intel, who can administer a karate chop to the neck and kill somebody easily.
Kathy
********************************************************************
"There were no indications of rape, but they found a "copious" amount of a whitish substance in her vagina, which had decomposed and was of no help in finding the killer."
Then, why bring it up?
"If it is true that she wasn't raped, what motive would any of her friends have to kill her? Methamphetamine in the medicine cabinet? If it was one of the suspects, the drug was easily available as she kept her pills behind the bathroom mirror. Why kill her?"
Why, indeed. How did she score her speed? By prescription, or Black Market? If by prescription, no motive, that is, unless she ran around with a bunch of speed freaks who were mainly interested in ripping off her stash. And even then, they could've done that behind her back without having to resort to knocking her out, let alone murdering her. If by Black Market, maybe she hadn't paid her distributor in a timely manner. What does her apparent speed habit have to do with any of this, anyway? Was she killed because she was a "tweak," who might talk? And if so, "talk" about what?
I could see the intrigue, had the drug of choice been "cocaine," or even, "heroin." There was a lucrative market for those substances in the early 1960's. But, prescription speed, diet pills? That could be equivalent to scoring weed, or acid, back in those days. It wasn't even classified as a "3" substance until the Reagan administration decided to "Just Say No." And, the DEA didn't really get to cut its teeth in the drug trafficking world until the mid 1970's when they tried to saturate Oakland with cocaine and this new process, known as "crack."
So. unless someone can shed some light on the reason why Karyn Kupcinet's "diet pill" habit, and not say, a "cocaine" or "heroin" habit may have figured in on her demise, I don't know if I quite follow this line of inquiry. James?
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Charles B: "Give me liberty or...."
Terry: "...or give me a locked topic that I'm still able to view, and after having reviewed the content of the thread, can draw my own conclusions..."
...and the good portions of the topic would remain available, as well as a record would be maintained of participants (evolving) personas.
*********************************************************
"...and the good portions of the topic would remain available, as well as a record would be maintained of participants (evolving) personas."
Exactomundo, J.D. The documentation is crucial to the management of the forum, as far as I'm concerned. Especially with regard to those disreputable disruptees. Why not utilize the forums full capabilities for record keeping. Those who have the tendency to commit multiple infractions could be monitored and graphed as to frequency, time of the month, full moon, or whatever other factors came into play during the time of the outbursts. It would be interesting to follow up on it and see how it checks out. Another "research" project!
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Hi All:
Agreed on no censorship.......then on the other hand, the Mods will be damned if they do, and damned if they don't.....Which has already occurred.....terrible job being a Mod..
one of the most unthankful......The members on any Forum, who take such responsibility are far and few.....So give them a break also..
What I have seen so far has been well thought out, imo......before any action has been taken, and also the final decision is always left to the Administration...
What if, the offending post was deleted, if not relevant or was simply a bitchy type or personal attack type post....?? and not subject related in any way.....just a thought....but then there are those who will also say that is history also, so it is between a rock and a hard place....
Thanks B......
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"What if, the offending post was deleted, if not relevant or was simply a bitchy type or personal attack type post....?? and not subject related in any way.....just a thought...."
Well, hell yeah, Bean! Those are considered to be ad hominem attacks, and should be deleted for lack of relevant content. Good point, Bunky!
Clint Murchison III
in JFK Assassination Debate
Posted
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List the date of her death, Kath. And, if you can come up with a reasonable document or report of the autopsy, that would help a great deal.
Also, a little more background: the date of her marriage to Murchison III, its duration, date of divorce, the respondent and co-respondent. Terms upon which it was drawn. Any children involved. Alimony, child support. The usual mundane aspects.
Thanks,
Ter