Terry Mauro

The subject itself does not upset me, Myra. It's the character assassination of an individual, by what I perceive to be a judgemental person, claiming all the while to be honoring said, albeit deceased individual.

Unfortunately, Karyn's personal life becomes relevant to the debate about her death because Ellroy and others have suggested that she may have committed suicide. I don't know if what Kathy shared amounts to "character assassination." So Karyn "had issues"? Who doesn't?

--Paul

--

Paul Fecteau (paul@paulfecteau.com)

Kari Kupcinet (kari@paulfecteau.com)

homepage: http://paulfecteau.com/

mailing address:

Department of English

Washburn University

1700 S.W. College Ave.

Topeka, KS 66621

phone: 785-670-1445

Thank you, Paul and Myra. Terry and I don't get along. As for Karyn Kupcinet, I would have loved to be her friend. She was such a worthwhile person. And highly intelligent. But always Essee's opinion came first. Essee was a beautiful woman. But, except for her height, which was short, I think Karyn took after Irv. She was in such a spiral. And I want to say something about Andrew Prine. To the best of my knowledge, I don't think he ever paid back Mark Goddard for Karyn's Mexico abortion. He was asking for alimony from the wife he was divorcing. Which, especially in those days, made him look bad.

Thanks again.

Kathy

****************************************************

"Terry and I don't get along."

That's an understatement. And, "why?"

"As for Karyn Kupcinet, I would have loved to be her friend. She was such a worthwhile person. And highly intelligent. But always Essee's opinion came first. Essee was a beautiful woman. But, except for her height, which was short, I think Karyn took after Irv. She was in such a spiral. And I want to say something about Andrew Prine. To the best of my knowledge, I don't think he ever paid back Mark Goddard for Karyn's Mexico abortion. He was asking for alimony from the wife he was divorcing. Which, especially in those days, made him look bad."

This is, "why." What I've bolded is, "why." And, I truly believe Karyn would've more than likely shunned any association with someone who would claim to be her friend, yet said "friend" would take it upon herself to broadcast the fact that Karyn had had an abortion, take pot shots at her height, claim she was in a spiral, and that her boyfriend was seeking palimony from the wife he was divorcing.

You have an exceptional thought process.

"I don't think he ever paid back Mark Goddard for Karyn's Mexico abortion."

Wait a minute, maybe that was just an excuse for her to go to Mexico and meet up with Saul, or is it Ralph Geb? Is that her connection to the assassination? This could be a breakthrough!

The subject itself does not upset me, Myra. It's the character assassination of an individual, by what I perceive to be a judgemental person, claiming all the while to be honoring said, albeit deceased individual.

Unfortunately, Karyn's personal life becomes relevant to the debate about her death because Ellroy and others have suggested that she may have committed suicide. I don't know if what Kathy shared amounts to "character assassination." So Karyn "had issues"? Who doesn't?

--Paul

--

Paul Fecteau (paul@paulfecteau.com)

Kari Kupcinet (kari@paulfecteau.com)

homepage: http://paulfecteau.com/

mailing address:

Department of English

Washburn University

1700 S.W. College Ave.

Topeka, KS 66621

phone: 785-670-1445

**************************************************************

"So Karyn "had issues"? Who doesn't?"

They needn't be paraded before the world like a cheap, "True Confessions" magazine article.

And please, if you will, show me the direct relevance her death, be it by murder, suicide, or natural causes, has with the assassination of Kennedy.

Someone, such as Penn Jones writes a book about suspicious deaths surrounding the assassination, and mentions Kupcinet as one of the perceived victims, on the basis of her father's reputation, and the close proximity of her death to the date of the assassination. There was a report of a long distance operator claiming to overhear a woman scream into the phone, "They're going to kill the president!" I'm still waiting for the actual documentation on this that doesn't go off on a tangent about Karyn Kupcinet's personal history, physical and psychological flaws, or her mother's apparent obsessive preoccupation with living her own life through her daughter's. Now, if Karyn worked for JFK's campaign committee in some slightly relevant capacity, or had direct contact with him on a semi-regular basis, or possibly had the status afforded Monroe, with regard to access and proximity to the president, and/or his immediate associated circle of friends or advisers, there might be a better case to be made with respect to a direct relationship of Karyn Kupcinet's death to the assassination. Anything else is pure speculation and better served as bio on what the ravages of Hollywood may wreak upon the lives of those who come to seek their fame and fortune on "The Boulevard Of Broken Dreams."

On the other hand, Dorothy Kilgallen serves as a more plausible case, due to her stature as a reporter. The same can be said for Kopechne [sp?], who was politically involved, having worked for Smathers, and for Ted Kennedy. I recently read, here on the forum, where Kupcinet had gone to the same school, or had been a possible roommate of Kopechne's [sp?]. But, the direct connection with Kupcinet having been involved in any capacity other than what appeared to be, as a "party girl," or hired escort [relegating her to the status of a "groupie"], without actually being involved in any PAC, or presidential campaign, leaves a lot in question, as to what significance her death really had with the assassination, itself. IMHO, any one of Jack Ruby's girls a had better chance, or reason, for getting wacked than Karyn Kupcinet. But, say her father actually had knowledge aforethought, through his association with Ruby, or didn't know, yet his association with Ruby might put him, or his family at risk, then the murder or staged suicide of his daughter would be a sufficient warning, I grant you that. But, I need more documentation on that long distance operator and that "phone call." I need more concrete evidence, and a lot less focus on his daughter's drug habits, and/or sex life, or what coulda', woulda', shoulda', happened to her, had her mother not pushed her into the life a Hollywood starlet. The only purpose this approach serves is to further degrade what little is left of her memory in the national conscience. Therefore, unless you are doing a case history on the study of dysfunctional parenting and the direct relationship this has to the cause and effect of drug addiction in their offspring, I fail to see why is this segment of Karyn Kupcinet's history is relevant to the assassination? That is, unless she was dealing drugs to the president, and I find that highly unlikely at this juncture. If you can manage to sway my thoughts on the subject with less gossip and rumor mill "speak," I'll be the first to acquiesce.

Well... I presented a list of suspicious deaths surrounding President Kennedy's murder and asked for input. The list excluded Karyn Kupcinet, because I'm unconvinced about the story, but Kathy alertly called the omission to my attention and we were in the midst of discussing it.

Thank you for taking the time to review my list Kathy, I appreciate your input.

Sorry the subject upset you Terry; Kathy and I are brainstorming here. And brainstorming is, ideally, non-judgemental to encourage free exchange of ideas, which is what I hoped for when I revised this thread.

So let's continue to brainstorm. Oh, and if anyone knows the ages and exact dates of death for anyone on my list (for whom I don't already have that info, duh) then please let me know.

********************************************************************

"Sorry the subject upset you Terry; Kathy and I are brainstorming here. And brainstorming is, ideally, non-judgemental to encourage free exchange of ideas, which is what I hoped for when I revised this thread."

The subject itself does not upset me, Myra. It's the character assassination of an individual, by what I perceive to be a judgemental person, claiming all the while to be honoring said, albeit deceased individual.

"So let's continue to brainstorm. Oh, and if anyone knows the ages and exact dates of death for anyone on my list (for whom I don't already have that info, duh) then please let me know."

By all means, Myra. I look forward to your assessment, and acknowledge your innate capability for separating the wheat from the chaff.

'John Simkin' post='4103' date='Apr 24 2004,[/b] 08:57 AM']Karyn Kupcinet is another whose death has been linked to the Kennedy assassination. I am not convinced but it is an interesting story.

Irv Kupcinet was a well-known journalist and television talk show host. He knew Jack Ruby in Chicago in the 1940s. According to W. Penn Jones (Forgive My Grief, 1966) Kupcinet kept in contact with Ruby and discovered that he was involved in a plot to assassinate President John F. Kennedy. Jones argues that Kupcinet passed this information on to his daughter Karyn. In his book, Forgive My Grief, Jones reports that "a few days before the assassination, Karyn Kupcinet, 23, was trying to place a long distance telephone call from the Los Angeles area. According to reports, the long distance operator heard Miss Kupcinet scream into the telephone that President Kennedy was going to be killed."

Karyn Kupcinet's body was discovered on 30th November, 1963. Police estimated that she had been dead for two days. The New York Times reported that she had been strangled. Her actor boyfriend, Andrew Prine was the main suspect but he was never charged with the murder and the crime remains unsolved.

Some researchers have claimed that there was a strong link between the death of Kupcinet and the assassination of John F. Kennedy. It was argued that the conspirators were trying to frighten Kupcinet from telling what he knew. Irv Kupcinet rejected this idea. He wrote in the Chicago Sun-Times (9th November, 1992): "The NBC Today Show on Friday carried a list of people who died violently in 1963 shortly after the death of President John F. Kennedy and may have had some link to the assassination. The first name on the list was Karyn Kupcinet, my daughter. That is an atrocious outrage. She did die violently in a Hollywood murder case still unsolved. That same list was published in a book years ago with no justification or verification. The book left the impression that some on the list may have been killed to silence them because of knowledge of the assassination. Nothing could be further from the truth in my daughter's case."

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKkupcinet.htm

Karyn Kupcinet

John, Penn Johes Jr was on Kup's Show circa 1966. It must have been here that he learned of the Kupcinet's murdered daughter. He said nothing about it on Kup's Show. I never read any of his books. They are hard to come by and too expensive for me. Someone told me that Penn Jones Jr was often misquoted on the Internet. I wouldn't know. But this business is in Book II of Forgive My Grief.

There was a story that circulated widely in newspapers the day after President Kennedy was killed. A distraught woman, trying to make a person-to-person call to Chicago, screamed into the phone and whispered into the phone that "They're going to kill the President." Twenty minutes later, Kennedy was shot. The supervisor of the operators reported this to the police. I've read that the call came from a law office in Oxnard, CA. But Penn Jones apparently believed this could have been Karyn Kupcinet. In my opinion, it wasn't. And I don't think she had any foreknowledge.

Karyn was murdered by the shutting off of her left carotid artery. This matches the coronor's cause of death -- that a strong man attacked her from behind and strangled her with only one hand -- his left. The coronor found much trauma to the left side of her neck. There's a specific headlock that will do this. She wasn't found for 3 days. She had a copious leukerrhea substance inside her vagina. When they tried to examine it, it had decomposed. They weren't sure what it was. Her apartment looked ransacked and only a great quantity of her Desoxyn - Methamphetamine - pills were missing.

She was found dead by her friends, Mark and Marcia Goddard. Mark starred in Lost in Space. Mark believed she killed herself. She had told people that she was going to Glenn Ford's house for Thanksgiving with Andrew Prine. Instead she was murdered on Thanksgiving and Prine said he never had any intention of taking her to Ford's house.

There are several suspects and as many theories. At this point, in my own mind, I am not sure she was killed because her father was investigating the Chicago angle to the Assassination. But I do believe she was murdered. It's a mystery and I keep exploring it. If she was killed to hurt Kup, no one could do a better job. Irv Kupcinet was a Zionist. And he was interested in the Ruby angle. It seems people who had anything to do with Ruby were often murdered.

Read more at 'groups.yahoo.com/group/Karyn_Kupcinet'

and 'thecloakofdarkness.blogspot.com' present page and in the archives

Kathy

*********************************************************

'thecloakofdarkness.blogspot.com'

John Simkin

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Sunday, December 11, 2005

Karyn Kupcinet and the Bobby Baker Scandal

The Kennedy Assassination for Lay People #3

John Simkin, a JFK assassination researcher, is trying to connect the murder of Karyn Kupcinet, actress daughter of late columnist Irv Kupcinet, to the Bobby Baker scandal.

Bobby Baker started out as a page in the Senate, working for Lyndon Johnson. He was so loyal to LBJ, people often referred to him as "Little Lyndon." When Johnson became Vice President, Bobby Baker stayed on with him as his secretary. Bobby Baker considered himself a wheeler dealer and was often around the Senate making deals. Baker got involved with Giancana and Meyer Lansky, building casinos in the Dominican Republic, which would serve as the new "Cuba" for the Mob. Baker then got involved in the Quorum Club, secretly owned by LBJ. Baker would procure women for big shots in Washington DC. J. Edgar Hoover later characterized some of these women as spies and had them deported.

LBJ had been receiving kickbacks from business contacts through Bobby Baker. The largest was the Fort Worth TFX contract to build a fighter plane for $7 million. Word circulated that Johnson, Vice President of the United States at the time, was going to be indicted. President Kennedy, it was rumored, was going to drop Lyndon from the ticket in 1964. Perhaps he would choose Senator George Smathers, who would become President Kennedy's "best friend," yet would say detrimental things about Kennedy's lifestyle after the Assassination, hurting Kennedy's memory. Don Reynolds, a man who put together Johnson's will and knew a lot about LBJ's finances, was testifying that he had seen a $100,000 payoff to Johnson over the TFX contract. Reynolds' testimony came to a halt that day when word came that President Kennedy had been assassinated.

LBJ began a smear campaign against Don Reynolds. Reynold's testimony would not be made public. In 1967 Bobby Baker was found guilty of 7 counts of theft, fraud and income tax evasion. The charges against him included Baker accepting huge campaign donations intended to buy influence with various Senators but which he kept for himself.

People in high financial and military places believed Kennedy was a communist. "Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country." This must have sounded like a Communist slogan to some. After the wealthy oil barons killed President Kennedy -- and Johnson knew it was going to happen and would benefit from it -- the country was not the same, nor ever will be. President Kennedy was assassinated for oil and big business; and so Lyndon Johnson could avoid indictment as President over a traumatized country which had just lost a charismatic President.

Back to Bobby Baker and Karyn Kupcinet. Baker, in his prime, had a house in SW Washington, DC. He held parties there in which he procured women for wealthy men. Nancy Carole Tyler, Bobby Baker's girlfriend, attended these parties frequently. Because she shared the house with Tyler, Mary Jo Kopechne was also, allegedly, at these functions. Mary Jo, who would be killed years later at a party at Chappaquiddick, had been in the same class as Karyn Kupcinet at Wellesley. Simkin is trying to place Karyn Kupcinet into one or more of these parties, claiming she learned something there that caused a hit man to murder her 5 days after the Assassination.

I had a hard time putting Karyn in Wash. D.C., except one time when she was eleven years old. Then I remembered Advise and Consent. Irv Kupcinet and Otto Preminger were good friends. Irv had one line in Preminger's film Advise and Consent (1962), filmed in Washington DC. Could Karyn have travelled to DC with her father so he could say his one line in the Preminger movie? Karyn, at least before she met Prine, was very social and had many friends. She wasn't a loner, though she suffered deep depressions. Would Karyn go to one of those parties?

She was certainly an out-of-towner. She probably wouldn't know ahead of time the nature of these parties. How much could Washington swing? How close was she to Kopechne? Karyn attended Wellesley, in the same class as Mary Jo, for only one semester. They knew her as Roberta Kupcinet there. In later years, obsessed with her weight, she told a reporter that she had gained so much poundage during those collegiate months that she was the original 5'x5' girl.

After leaving college, Karyn went on to New York. She auditioned for the Actor's Studio and Lee Strasberg accepted her, no easy feat. She was up for a part in a play in NY but didn't get the role and returned rejected to Chicago to her parent's house. Their decades-long maid said Karyn's mother, Essee, yelled at Karyn for having gained weight. Karyn took amphetamines and her mother looked the other way.

Another coincidence: When Karyn filmed The Ladies Man (1961) with Jerry Lewis, Jerry was having an affair with Judith Campbell (Exner). She was on the set everyday and like Karyn, she came from Chicago. I know at one time the two of them lived in walking distance to each other. Had they become friends?

Simkin also says that Irv Kupcinet and Jack Ruby were close friends. They were not, though both men had things in common during their youth in Chicago. Kupcinet was acquainted with Ruby and called up a mutual friend, Paul Dorfman (Mob connected), asking him questions about Ruby. This call came so quick, Dorfman didn't even know Oswald had been shot. "'Sparky' would never do that," he said. As Irv dug into the Chicago angle of the Assassination in the week to come, his daughter lay dead in her L.A. apartment.

She had been dead 3 days before anyone found her. The autopsy said a very strong left-handded man had strangled her from behind. He broke her hyoid bone. She was found face down on her sofa. In my opinion, shortly after 2 male friends left her apartment, she was murdered by a hit man who killed her with a karate chop to the neck. A reporter, Jim Koethe, who had been in a meeting in Ruby's apartment the night Ruby shot Oswald, was murdered a few months later with a karate chop to the neck. Is this a coincidence, or a Ruby connection to Kupcinet's murder and Koethe's? Her male friends would be the suspects. Also her ex-boyfriend. And the guy downstairs from her. All these men were polygraphed and all their test results came out "inconclusive." The guys either had bad alibis or no alibis at all. Walter Winchell, down on his luck, told Irv Kupcinet that he was going to solve the murder and win a Pulitzer Prize doing so. The police felt he hampered the investigation. Winchell wrote up his report. All I know is he mentioned "The Syndicate." Is that the same as the Mafia? Like Sam Giancana? Could Winchell have been onto something?

I don't know if Karyn Kupcinet ever attended Bobby Baker's parties. But it is strange that Nancy Carole Tyler, who lived in Baker's house, Mary Jo Kopechne and Karyn Kupcinet all met early tragic ends after the Assassination. And Judith Campbell Exner feared for her life from Kennedy's death onward.

I still believe that Karyn had no foreknowledge of the Assassination and was killed to send Irv Kupcinet, her father, a warning to cease investigating the Assassination. I'm told, which I have not verified yet, that Irv never wrote about the Assassination again until the movie JFK came out. Irv maintained that Oswald shot President Kennedy... The early script of Stone's movie had a Karyn Kupcinet character. One is allowed to say anything about someone who has died. And this infuriated Kupcinet. He denounced the movie. Oliver Stone chose to use the Rose Cheramie character instead to illustrate foreknowledge and conspiracy. To use Karyn Kupcinet would only be speculation. The L.A. Sheriff's Dept has not solved the case. She went from L.A. to Palm Springs the day Kennedy was shot. She cannot be placed in Oxnard, CA that day, where an upset woman tried to make a person-to-person call to Chicago, got onto the operator's line and said, "They're going to kill the President" 20 minutes before he was shot. This was reported to the FBI and the story appeared in many newspapers around the US the next day. The real woman supposedly made the call from a law practice in Oxnard, and her name was revealed to Robert Kennedy on the day he was shot.

My bibliography for the above info includes: John Simkins' forum on the Kennedy Assassiation; The Men Who Killed Kennedy, a series of documentaries made by Nigel Turner; Farewell America; LBJ's mistress, Madeleine Duncan Brown, as interviewed by Nigel Turner; Chicago Magazine , "The Lost World of Kup," June 2004; The True Hollywood Story on Karyn Kupcinet; King of Comedy by Shawn Levy; John Austin in private letter; The Ruby Cover-Up by Seth Kantor; Kup: A Man, an Era, a City by Irv Kupcinet; Crime Wave by James Ellroy -- "The Glamour Jungle," GQ, December 1998; Winchell: Gossip, Power and the Culture of Celebrity by Neal Gabler; Judith Campbell Exner - television interview before she died where she said, "I was in love with that man. What more does that family want from me?"; the IMDb - Internet Movie Database; Irv Kupcinet's columns re Oliver Stone's JFK; McAdam's JFK Assassination site; and my own conjecture.

=====================================================

It is nice to know that people are using the Forum for research. However, I am surprised that the "Cloak of Darkness" did not look at my web pages on these people. He would have discovered the sources for my views on the deaths of these three women. He says I claimed that Irv Kupcinet was a close friend of Jack Ruby. Did I? What I did say was that Irv Kupcinet got to know Jack Ruby in Chicago in the 1940s. According to W. Penn Jones he kept in contact with Ruby (he supplied Kupcinet with information about the Mafia, etc.). Penn Jones claimed that Kupcinet discovered that Ruby was involved in a plot to assassinate Kennedy. Jones argues that Irv passed this information on to his daughter Karyn.

In his book, Forgive My Grief, Jones suggests that Karyn might have supplied her father with information about the assassination. He argues that "a few days before the assassination, Karyn Kupcinet, 23, was trying to place a long distance telephone call from the Los Angeles area. According to reports, the long distance operator heard Miss Kupcinet scream into the telephone that President Kennedy was going to be killed."

Karyn Kupcinet's body was discovered on 30th November, 1963. Police estimated that she had been dead for two days. The New York Times reported that she had been strangled. Her actor boyfriend, Andrew Prine was the main suspect but he was never charged with the murder and the crime remains unsolved.

Some researchers have claimed that there was a link between the death of Kupcinet and the assassination of Kennedy. It was argued that the conspirators were trying to frighten off Kupcinet from telling what he knew. Kupcinet rejected this idea. He wrote in the Chicago Sun-Times (9th November, 1992): "The NBC Today Show on Friday carried a list of people who died violently in 1963 shortly after the death of President John F. Kennedy and may have had some link to the assassination. The first name on the list was Karyn Kupcinet, my daughter. That is an atrocious outrage. She did die violently in a Hollywood murder case still unsolved. That same list was published in a book years ago with no justification or verification. The book left the impression that some on the list may have been killed to silence them because of knowledge of the assassination. Nothing could be further from the truth in my daughter's case."

Was he telling the truth or was he protecting the lives of other members of the family?

It has to be remembered that another journalist claimed that his daughter's murder had nothing to do with the assassination of JFK. According to Lee Israel (Kilgallen: An Intimate Biography) James Kilgallen, a famous investigative journalist, was quick to announce that his daughter's death had nothing to do with the JFK case.

==================================================

'thecloakofdarkness.blogspot.com'

"In later years, obsessed with her weight, she told a reporter that she had gained so much poundage during those collegiate months that she was the original 5'x5' girl.

After leaving college, Karyn went on to New York. She auditioned for the Actor's Studio and Lee Strasberg accepted her, no easy feat. She was up for a part in a play in NY but didn't get the role and returned rejected to Chicago to her parent's house. Their decades-long maid said Karyn's mother, Essee, yelled at Karyn for having gained weight. Karyn took amphetamines and her mother looked the other way."

What does this information have to do with furthering the investigation of the assassination of JFK?

"I still believe that Karyn had no foreknowledge of the Assassination and was killed to send Irv Kupcinet, her father, a warning to cease investigating the Assassination. I'm told, which I have not verified yet, that Irv never wrote about the Assassination again until the movie JFK came out. Irv maintained that Oswald shot President Kennedy... The early script of Stone's movie had a Karyn Kupcinet character. One is allowed to say anything about someone who has died. And this infuriated Kupcinet. He denounced the movie. Oliver Stone chose to use the Rose Cheramie character instead to illustrate foreknowledge and conspiracy. To use Karyn Kupcinet would only be speculation. The L.A. Sheriff's Dept has not solved the case. She went from L.A. to Palm Springs the day Kennedy was shot. She cannot be placed in Oxnard, CA that day, where an upset woman tried to make a person-to-person call to Chicago, got onto the operator's line and said, "They're going to kill the President" 20 minutes before he was shot. This was reported to the FBI and the story appeared in many newspapers around the US the next day. The real woman supposedly made the call from a law practice in Oxnard, and her name was revealed to Robert Kennedy on the day he was shot."

I bet Kupcinet really loved your take on this.

On the day, who was shot? JFK or RFK.

"Crime Wave by James Ellroy -- "The Glamour Jungle," GQ, December 1998; Winchell: Gossip, Power and the Culture of Celebrity by Neal Gabler; Judith Campbell Exner - television interview before she died where she said, "I was in love with that man. What more does that family want from me?"; the IMDb - Internet Movie Database; Irv Kupcinet's columns re Oliver Stone's JFK; McAdam's JFK Assassination site; and my own conjecture."

To be sure.

"She was definitely murdered, although crime writer, James Ellroy, said she must have been dancing nude like a wood nymph to free her inhibitions. Actors are always trying to free their inhibitions. She had a book somewhere in the house opened to a page that said that. And then she supposedly fell and hit her neck on the corner of the coffee table, crawled up onto the sofa and died."

Pure speculation

And then, maybe it was suicide or she died like Anna Nicole with so many different prescription drugs in her. She was decomposed and they couldn't trace how many drugs she had in her. But I still believe she was murdered. Was she such a bad housekeeper that she left closet doors open, drawers with their contents trailing on the floor, bed clothes pulled halfway off the bed, revealing 2 twin beds pushed together;and 100 methamphetamines missing?

You're grasping at straws.

There are several suspects. One of them, David Lange, died last year. No deathbed confession. And her ex-boyfriend, Andrew Prine, looks terribly ill. He's about 71 now. He has his own website, a pathetic attempt at trying to get an acting job when he looks and sounds like walking death. Plus she had 2 male visitors earlier that night whom she didn't know well. And everyone of these suspects had lousy alibis."

So what? Who cares? And, how do you expect you're going to look when you're 71. His career was most likely ruined from being associated with this whole bloody mess. You sound almost ecstatic. Karyn and her old man are probably rolling over in their graves with the way you've been ragging her.

Don't you have anything positive or nice to say about someone who's not here to defend themselves? It's as if you glory in airing their dirty laundry, and any little insignificant tidbit of slander you may be able to glean from their "supposedly" sordid pasts. What purpose does it serve? To make you feel better about yourself?

Was Walter Winchell your idol, or your mentor? Because you sure sound like a cheap imitation of him, Ms. Cloak of Darkness blogspot.com. You sure get off on throwing your website around here, for someone who can't seem to get their story straight.

And, while it's still fresh in my mind, DO NOT EVER, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, CONTACT ME AGAIN VIA MY E-MAIL ADDRESS! Especially, since I haven't set out to attack you in any recent memory that I can recall.

My apologies to John Geraghty, Kathy Beckett, Evan Marshall, Simkin, Walker, et. al.

Terry, John Simkin brought up the subject of Karyn Kupcinet. That's how it's relevant.

How can you say I'm ecstatic talking about her death and Andrew Prine getting old? Karyn means a lot to me. A lot. And it goes back decades. I contribute to her Yahoo group. No, I don't think Irv would have liked my focusing on the Assassination. He believed that she was murdered by someone in her circle, namely David Lange who's past on. By the way, Kari Kupcinet, Karyn's niece, knows I'm on her Yahoo group. The man who is writing a book about Karyn is grateful for my time and my posts and theories.

Re Walter Winchell: He's a little bit before my time. My mother used to read his columns. Winchell went out to L.A. to investigate the murder. He didn't succeed. He actually told Irv he was going to win a Pulitzer Prize doing it. Didn't happen.

It was Dorothy Kilgallen I admired. I believe it was she who reported that someone in Karyn's circle killed her and that it was a married man. I have no idea who that is. But Kilgallen was a smart woman and my family always thought there was something fishy about her death. I recommend you read Lee Israel's book on Dorothy.

If I'm a little dark, Terry, God made me that way. And, tell me, isn't the Assassination of John Kennedy dark in and of itself? Sensationalism? What about publishing gory autopsy photos for the public to see? That's so dark it's soot! When you point the finger at someone else, Terry, remember, 3 of your fingers are pointing back at you. And another old adage: It takes one to know one.

Kathy

***********************************************************

"And, tell me, isn't the Assassination of John Kennedy dark in and of itself? Sensationalism? What about publishing gory autopsy photos for the public to see?"

Not when you're viewing it from a purely forensic P.O.V. Nor, from the aspect of having experience in the staging and triage of gun shot wounds. Yet, you insist on labeling state and federal homicide evidence as "gory" simply because you prefer to be noted as a researcher from a purely "literary"

standpoint. Therefore, those bonafide authors and researchers who are physicists, radiologists, pathologists, clinicians, and their technical staff and support teams, along with the attorneys, and their paralegals who happen to be investigating the homicide of the 35th President of the United States, are merely "masturbating in the blood of John F. Kennedy," as you once accused the research community of partaking in.

"It takes one to know one."

Oh really? I am so flattered you chose to include me, but I seriously doubt I come anywhere near your stature when it comes to style and ability to pick apart someone's past to the inclusion of irrelevant aspects that have absolutely nothing to do with connecting them to the assassination. Your seemingly uncanny sense for dragging their reputations through the mud by making reference to their poor body image, low self-esteem, and how this somehow drove them into drug addiction, is a logical deduction. But I fail to see the direct connection between this information about them, or why this particular facet in their personality would make them ideal candidates for murder with respect to the Kennedy assassination.

If you're trying to make the case of perpetrators getting back at Kupcinet himself, to shut him up, I have no quarrel with that. What I find distasteful is the way you claim to revere someone, in this case Karyn, yet seemingly go out of your way to point out every character flaw you deem pertinent as a direct involvement in JFK's assassination. But, that's if you can make a connection that she may have somehow been distributing drugs to the dead president, or been his "pusher man." And that, in itself is a pretty far stretch of the imagination. It's as if you pick the most lurid details to make a point that goes nowhere near what you're trying to say. You do the same thing with Marilyn Monroe. Cut her up into bits and pieces, all the while castigating her with accusations aimed at her sexual preferences and promiscuities. Then, doing a 180 degree turn to say how much you admired her. What the hell is that all about?

I have debated about putting this on the forum, but things are so dire that I feel the need to post this information. I'm bad at the medical terminology, but bottom line is he needs a double lung and heart transplant NOW. Not a smoker, so no one knows how this happened. But he is quickly on the decline. Terry and I talk with him on the weekends,(via my three-way) and I check in sometimes during the week.

It's just heartbreaking; he's 50.

Sadly,

Dawn

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Dawnie, both you and T.C. already know how helpless I feel in this situation, except for being able to interpret his diagnosis and the medical jargon surrounding his present condition. I'm the one who ends up crying on our phone calls, each and every time. It's tough to maintain the clinical stance of pure logic and separation needed in dealing with decisions in a case like this, especially when it's someone you've come to know and care about. T.C. has always been supportive and a damned good teacher to me, who's been a great friend and mentor, as well.

This weekend I updated my advanced directives to include that should something happen to me, an auto ac, stroke, gunshot wound to the head, etc. that my heart and lungs, if in good condition, be donated to T.C., seeing as we've got the same blood type, and all. I told Jeff, and Marcella this, last night just in case. Hell, you never know these days. Anything could happen to just about anyone.

'John Simkin' post='4103' date='Apr 24 2004,[/b] 08:57 AM']Karyn Kupcinet is another whose death has been linked to the Kennedy assassination. I am not convinced but it is an interesting story.

Irv Kupcinet was a well-known journalist and television talk show host. He knew Jack Ruby in Chicago in the 1940s. According to W. Penn Jones (Forgive My Grief, 1966) Kupcinet kept in contact with Ruby and discovered that he was involved in a plot to assassinate President John F. Kennedy. Jones argues that Kupcinet passed this information on to his daughter Karyn. In his book, Forgive My Grief, Jones reports that "a few days before the assassination, Karyn Kupcinet, 23, was trying to place a long distance telephone call from the Los Angeles area. According to reports, the long distance operator heard Miss Kupcinet scream into the telephone that President Kennedy was going to be killed."

Karyn Kupcinet's body was discovered on 30th November, 1963. Police estimated that she had been dead for two days. The New York Times reported that she had been strangled. Her actor boyfriend, Andrew Prine was the main suspect but he was never charged with the murder and the crime remains unsolved.

Some researchers have claimed that there was a strong link between the death of Kupcinet and the assassination of John F. Kennedy. It was argued that the conspirators were trying to frighten Kupcinet from telling what he knew. Irv Kupcinet rejected this idea. He wrote in the Chicago Sun-Times (9th November, 1992): "The NBC Today Show on Friday carried a list of people who died violently in 1963 shortly after the death of President John F. Kennedy and may have had some link to the assassination. The first name on the list was Karyn Kupcinet, my daughter. That is an atrocious outrage. She did die violently in a Hollywood murder case still unsolved. That same list was published in a book years ago with no justification or verification. The book left the impression that some on the list may have been killed to silence them because of knowledge of the assassination. Nothing could be further from the truth in my daughter's case."

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKkupcinet.htm

Karyn Kupcinet

John, Penn Johes Jr was on Kup's Show circa 1966. It must have been here that he learned of the Kupcinet's murdered daughter. He said nothing about it on Kup's Show. I never read any of his books. They are hard to come by and too expensive for me. Someone told me that Penn Jones Jr was often misquoted on the Internet. I wouldn't know. But this business is in Book II of Forgive My Grief.

There was a story that circulated widely in newspapers the day after President Kennedy was killed. A distraught woman, trying to make a person-to-person call to Chicago, screamed into the phone and whispered into the phone that "They're going to kill the President." Twenty minutes later, Kennedy was shot. The supervisor of the operators reported this to the police. I've read that the call came from a law office in Oxnard, CA. But Penn Jones apparently believed this could have been Karyn Kupcinet. In my opinion, it wasn't. And I don't think she had any foreknowledge.

Karyn was murdered by the shutting off of her left carotid artery. This matches the coronor's cause of death -- that a strong man attacked her from behind and strangled her with only one hand -- his left. The coronor found much trauma to the left side of her neck. There's a specific headlock that will do this. She wasn't found for 3 days. She had a copious leukerrhea substance inside her vagina. When they tried to examine it, it had decomposed. They weren't sure what it was. Her apartment looked ransacked and only a great quantity of her Desoxyn - Methamphetamine - pills were missing.

She was found dead by her friends, Mark and Marcia Goddard. Mark starred in Lost in Space. Mark believed she killed herself. She had told people that she was going to Glenn Ford's house for Thanksgiving with Andrew Prine. Instead she was murdered on Thanksgiving and Prine said he never had any intention of taking her to Ford's house.

There are several suspects and as many theories. At this point, in my own mind, I am not sure she was killed because her father was investigating the Chicago angle to the Assassination. But I do believe she was murdered. It's a mystery and I keep exploring it. If she was killed to hurt Kup, no one could do a better job. Irv Kupcinet was a Zionist. And he was interested in the Ruby angle. It seems people who had anything to do with Ruby were often murdered.

Read more at 'groups.yahoo.com/group/Karyn_Kupcinet'

and 'thecloakofdarkness.blogspot.com' present page and in the archives

Kathy

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John Simkin

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Find Member's Posts Jan 19 2006, 08:38 AM Post #47

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Sunday, December 11, 2005

Karyn Kupcinet and the Bobby Baker Scandal

The Kennedy Assassination for Lay People #3

John Simkin, a JFK assassination researcher, is trying to connect the murder of Karyn Kupcinet, actress daughter of late columnist Irv Kupcinet, to the Bobby Baker scandal.

Bobby Baker started out as a page in the Senate, working for Lyndon Johnson. He was so loyal to LBJ, people often referred to him as "Little Lyndon." When Johnson became Vice President, Bobby Baker stayed on with him as his secretary. Bobby Baker considered himself a wheeler dealer and was often around the Senate making deals. Baker got involved with Giancana and Meyer Lansky, building casinos in the Dominican Republic, which would serve as the new "Cuba" for the Mob. Baker then got involved in the Quorum Club, secretly owned by LBJ. Baker would procure women for big shots in Washington DC. J. Edgar Hoover later characterized some of these women as spies and had them deported.

LBJ had been receiving kickbacks from business contacts through Bobby Baker. The largest was the Fort Worth TFX contract to build a fighter plane for $7 million. Word circulated that Johnson, Vice President of the United States at the time, was going to be indicted. President Kennedy, it was rumored, was going to drop Lyndon from the ticket in 1964. Perhaps he would choose Senator George Smathers, who would become President Kennedy's "best friend," yet would say detrimental things about Kennedy's lifestyle after the Assassination, hurting Kennedy's memory. Don Reynolds, a man who put together Johnson's will and knew a lot about LBJ's finances, was testifying that he had seen a $100,000 payoff to Johnson over the TFX contract. Reynolds' testimony came to a halt that day when word came that President Kennedy had been assassinated.

LBJ began a smear campaign against Don Reynolds. Reynold's testimony would not be made public. In 1967 Bobby Baker was found guilty of 7 counts of theft, fraud and income tax evasion. The charges against him included Baker accepting huge campaign donations intended to buy influence with various Senators but which he kept for himself.

People in high financial and military places believed Kennedy was a communist. "Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country." This must have sounded like a Communist slogan to some. After the wealthy oil barons killed President Kennedy -- and Johnson knew it was going to happen and would benefit from it -- the country was not the same, nor ever will be. President Kennedy was assassinated for oil and big business; and so Lyndon Johnson could avoid indictment as President over a traumatized country which had just lost a charismatic President.

Back to Bobby Baker and Karyn Kupcinet. Baker, in his prime, had a house in SW Washington, DC. He held parties there in which he procured women for wealthy men. Nancy Carole Tyler, Bobby Baker's girlfriend, attended these parties frequently. Because she shared the house with Tyler, Mary Jo Kopechne was also, allegedly, at these functions. Mary Jo, who would be killed years later at a party at Chappaquiddick, had been in the same class as Karyn Kupcinet at Wellesley. Simkin is trying to place Karyn Kupcinet into one or more of these parties, claiming she learned something there that caused a hit man to murder her 5 days after the Assassination.

I had a hard time putting Karyn in Wash. D.C., except one time when she was eleven years old. Then I remembered Advise and Consent. Irv Kupcinet and Otto Preminger were good friends. Irv had one line in Preminger's film Advise and Consent (1962), filmed in Washington DC. Could Karyn have travelled to DC with her father so he could say his one line in the Preminger movie? Karyn, at least before she met Prine, was very social and had many friends. She wasn't a loner, though she suffered deep depressions. Would Karyn go to one of those parties?

She was certainly an out-of-towner. She probably wouldn't know ahead of time the nature of these parties. How much could Washington swing? How close was she to Kopechne? Karyn attended Wellesley, in the same class as Mary Jo, for only one semester. They knew her as Roberta Kupcinet there. In later years, obsessed with her weight, she told a reporter that she had gained so much poundage during those collegiate months that she was the original 5'x5' girl.

After leaving college, Karyn went on to New York. She auditioned for the Actor's Studio and Lee Strasberg accepted her, no easy feat. She was up for a part in a play in NY but didn't get the role and returned rejected to Chicago to her parent's house. Their decades-long maid said Karyn's mother, Essee, yelled at Karyn for having gained weight. Karyn took amphetamines and her mother looked the other way.

Another coincidence: When Karyn filmed The Ladies Man (1961) with Jerry Lewis, Jerry was having an affair with Judith Campbell (Exner). She was on the set everyday and like Karyn, she came from Chicago. I know at one time the two of them lived in walking distance to each other. Had they become friends?

Simkin also says that Irv Kupcinet and Jack Ruby were close friends. They were not, though both men had things in common during their youth in Chicago. Kupcinet was acquainted with Ruby and called up a mutual friend, Paul Dorfman (Mob connected), asking him questions about Ruby. This call came so quick, Dorfman didn't even know Oswald had been shot. "'Sparky' would never do that," he said. As Irv dug into the Chicago angle of the Assassination in the week to come, his daughter lay dead in her L.A. apartment.

She had been dead 3 days before anyone found her. The autopsy said a very strong left-handded man had strangled her from behind. He broke her hyoid bone. She was found face down on her sofa. In my opinion, shortly after 2 male friends left her apartment, she was murdered by a hit man who killed her with a karate chop to the neck. A reporter, Jim Koethe, who had been in a meeting in Ruby's apartment the night Ruby shot Oswald, was murdered a few months later with a karate chop to the neck. Is this a coincidence, or a Ruby connection to Kupcinet's murder and Koethe's? Her male friends would be the suspects. Also her ex-boyfriend. And the guy downstairs from her. All these men were polygraphed and all their test results came out "inconclusive." The guys either had bad alibis or no alibis at all. Walter Winchell, down on his luck, told Irv Kupcinet that he was going to solve the murder and win a Pulitzer Prize doing so. The police felt he hampered the investigation. Winchell wrote up his report. All I know is he mentioned "The Syndicate." Is that the same as the Mafia? Like Sam Giancana? Could Winchell have been onto something?

I don't know if Karyn Kupcinet ever attended Bobby Baker's parties. But it is strange that Nancy Carole Tyler, who lived in Baker's house, Mary Jo Kopechne and Karyn Kupcinet all met early tragic ends after the Assassination. And Judith Campbell Exner feared for her life from Kennedy's death onward.

I still believe that Karyn had no foreknowledge of the Assassination and was killed to send Irv Kupcinet, her father, a warning to cease investigating the Assassination. I'm told, which I have not verified yet, that Irv never wrote about the Assassination again until the movie JFK came out. Irv maintained that Oswald shot President Kennedy... The early script of Stone's movie had a Karyn Kupcinet character. One is allowed to say anything about someone who has died. And this infuriated Kupcinet. He denounced the movie. Oliver Stone chose to use the Rose Cheramie character instead to illustrate foreknowledge and conspiracy. To use Karyn Kupcinet would only be speculation. The L.A. Sheriff's Dept has not solved the case. She went from L.A. to Palm Springs the day Kennedy was shot. She cannot be placed in Oxnard, CA that day, where an upset woman tried to make a person-to-person call to Chicago, got onto the operator's line and said, "They're going to kill the President" 20 minutes before he was shot. This was reported to the FBI and the story appeared in many newspapers around the US the next day. The real woman supposedly made the call from a law practice in Oxnard, and her name was revealed to Robert Kennedy on the day he was shot.

My bibliography for the above info includes: John Simkins' forum on the Kennedy Assassiation; The Men Who Killed Kennedy, a series of documentaries made by Nigel Turner; Farewell America; LBJ's mistress, Madeleine Duncan Brown, as interviewed by Nigel Turner; Chicago Magazine , "The Lost World of Kup," June 2004; The True Hollywood Story on Karyn Kupcinet; King of Comedy by Shawn Levy; John Austin in private letter; The Ruby Cover-Up by Seth Kantor; Kup: A Man, an Era, a City by Irv Kupcinet; Crime Wave by James Ellroy -- "The Glamour Jungle," GQ, December 1998; Winchell: Gossip, Power and the Culture of Celebrity by Neal Gabler; Judith Campbell Exner - television interview before she died where she said, "I was in love with that man. What more does that family want from me?"; the IMDb - Internet Movie Database; Irv Kupcinet's columns re Oliver Stone's JFK; McAdam's JFK Assassination site; and my own conjecture.

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It is nice to know that people are using the Forum for research. However, I am surprised that the "Cloak of Darkness" did not look at my web pages on these people. He would have discovered the sources for my views on the deaths of these three women. He says I claimed that Irv Kupcinet was a close friend of Jack Ruby. Did I? What I did say was that Irv Kupcinet got to know Jack Ruby in Chicago in the 1940s. According to W. Penn Jones he kept in contact with Ruby (he supplied Kupcinet with information about the Mafia, etc.). Penn Jones claimed that Kupcinet discovered that Ruby was involved in a plot to assassinate Kennedy. Jones argues that Irv passed this information on to his daughter Karyn.

In his book, Forgive My Grief, Jones suggests that Karyn might have supplied her father with information about the assassination. He argues that "a few days before the assassination, Karyn Kupcinet, 23, was trying to place a long distance telephone call from the Los Angeles area. According to reports, the long distance operator heard Miss Kupcinet scream into the telephone that President Kennedy was going to be killed."

Karyn Kupcinet's body was discovered on 30th November, 1963. Police estimated that she had been dead for two days. The New York Times reported that she had been strangled. Her actor boyfriend, Andrew Prine was the main suspect but he was never charged with the murder and the crime remains unsolved.

Some researchers have claimed that there was a link between the death of Kupcinet and the assassination of Kennedy. It was argued that the conspirators were trying to frighten off Kupcinet from telling what he knew. Kupcinet rejected this idea. He wrote in the Chicago Sun-Times (9th November, 1992): "The NBC Today Show on Friday carried a list of people who died violently in 1963 shortly after the death of President John F. Kennedy and may have had some link to the assassination. The first name on the list was Karyn Kupcinet, my daughter. That is an atrocious outrage. She did die violently in a Hollywood murder case still unsolved. That same list was published in a book years ago with no justification or verification. The book left the impression that some on the list may have been killed to silence them because of knowledge of the assassination. Nothing could be further from the truth in my daughter's case."

Was he telling the truth or was he protecting the lives of other members of the family?

It has to be remembered that another journalist claimed that his daughter's murder had nothing to do with the assassination of JFK. According to Lee Israel (Kilgallen: An Intimate Biography) James Kilgallen, a famous investigative journalist, was quick to announce that his daughter's death had nothing to do with the JFK case.

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'thecloakofdarkness.blogspot.com'

"In later years, obsessed with her weight, she told a reporter that she had gained so much poundage during those collegiate months that she was the original 5'x5' girl.

After leaving college, Karyn went on to New York. She auditioned for the Actor's Studio and Lee Strasberg accepted her, no easy feat. She was up for a part in a play in NY but didn't get the role and returned rejected to Chicago to her parent's house. Their decades-long maid said Karyn's mother, Essee, yelled at Karyn for having gained weight. Karyn took amphetamines and her mother looked the other way."

What does this information have to do with furthering the investigation of the assassination of JFK?

"I still believe that Karyn had no foreknowledge of the Assassination and was killed to send Irv Kupcinet, her father, a warning to cease investigating the Assassination. I'm told, which I have not verified yet, that Irv never wrote about the Assassination again until the movie JFK came out. Irv maintained that Oswald shot President Kennedy... The early script of Stone's movie had a Karyn Kupcinet character. One is allowed to say anything about someone who has died. And this infuriated Kupcinet. He denounced the movie. Oliver Stone chose to use the Rose Cheramie character instead to illustrate foreknowledge and conspiracy. To use Karyn Kupcinet would only be speculation. The L.A. Sheriff's Dept has not solved the case. She went from L.A. to Palm Springs the day Kennedy was shot. She cannot be placed in Oxnard, CA that day, where an upset woman tried to make a person-to-person call to Chicago, got onto the operator's line and said, "They're going to kill the President" 20 minutes before he was shot. This was reported to the FBI and the story appeared in many newspapers around the US the next day. The real woman supposedly made the call from a law practice in Oxnard, and her name was revealed to Robert Kennedy on the day he was shot."

I bet Kupcinet really loved your take on this.

On the day, who was shot? JFK or RFK.

"Crime Wave by James Ellroy -- "The Glamour Jungle," GQ, December 1998; Winchell: Gossip, Power and the Culture of Celebrity by Neal Gabler; Judith Campbell Exner - television interview before she died where she said, "I was in love with that man. What more does that family want from me?"; the IMDb - Internet Movie Database; Irv Kupcinet's columns re Oliver Stone's JFK; McAdam's JFK Assassination site; and my own conjecture."

To be sure.

"She was definitely murdered, although crime writer, James Ellroy, said she must have been dancing nude like a wood nymph to free her inhibitions. Actors are always trying to free their inhibitions. She had a book somewhere in the house opened to a page that said that. And then she supposedly fell and hit her neck on the corner of the coffee table, crawled up onto the sofa and died."

Pure speculation

And then, maybe it was suicide or she died like Anna Nicole with so many different prescription drugs in her. She was decomposed and they couldn't trace how many drugs she had in her. But I still believe she was murdered. Was she such a bad housekeeper that she left closet doors open, drawers with their contents trailing on the floor, bed clothes pulled halfway off the bed, revealing 2 twin beds pushed together;and 100 methamphetamines missing?

You're grasping at straws.

There are several suspects. One of them, David Lange, died last year. No deathbed confession. And her ex-boyfriend, Andrew Prine, looks terribly ill. He's about 71 now. He has his own website, a pathetic attempt at trying to get an acting job when he looks and sounds like walking death. Plus she had 2 male visitors earlier that night whom she didn't know well. And everyone of these suspects had lousy alibis."

So what? Who cares? And, how do you expect you're going to look when you're 71. His career was most likely ruined from being associated with this whole bloody mess. You sound almost ecstatic. Karyn and her old man are probably rolling over in their graves with the way you've been ragging her.

Don't you have anything positive or nice to say about someone who's not here to defend themselves? It's as if you glory in airing their dirty laundry, and any little insignificant tidbit of slander you may be able to glean from their "supposedly" sordid pasts. What purpose does it serve? To make you feel better about yourself?

Was Walter Winchell your idol, or your mentor? Because you sure sound like a cheap imitation of him, Ms. Cloak of Darkness blogspot.com. You sure get off on throwing your website around here, for someone who can't seem to get their story straight.

And, while it's still fresh in my mind, DO NOT EVER, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, CONTACT ME AGAIN VIA MY E-MAIL ADDRESS! Especially, since I haven't set out to attack you in any recent memory that I can recall.

My apologies to John Geraghty, Kathy Beckett, Evan Marshall, Simkin, Walker, et. al.

The debate shouldn't be whether JFK's remains should be reinterred and properly examined, but when and where it should be done.

Sorry to be a parade-rainer-on-er, but I would guess the odds against this ever happening are massive. The spectacle of extinguishing the Eternal Flame, all the heavy equipment, workers trampling all over Our Beloved Dead - live on CBS, CNN, NBC, ABC, etc. etc, it would meet with fierce hostility by not only WC defenders, but by a human wall of alleged super patriots, religious spokespeople, you name it. The World Cup of disingenuous histrionics.

Not only that, but if it were to actually happen, the end game would need to be superbly cathartic, a real Perry Mason moment. Otherwise, there would be historic harm done to the effort to unravel the mystery. Without a major aha! this would be seen as ghoulish theater and little else. If it is at all possible, through the efforts of many people, to come to a tipping point of truth without turning a shovel, that's the way to go. Unless we come to the place where there truly is no other choice.

Hi Mark,

No rain. The odds are tremendous but ah, it's already happened. The body of JFK was already reinterred while there was a sitting grand jury investigating his murder.

JFK's body was reinterred during a secret, middle of the night, military exercise in 1968, while there was an active grand jury investigating the case in New Orleans.

The military moved the body to make room for the remains of the baby who died in 1963 and was reburried next to JFK. It was done in secret because if Garrision knew it was happening he probably would have requested a proper forensic autopsy.

There are picture of the event, and it is believed that it was at this time RFK placed the brain of JFK into the casket before it was reburried.

So the massive odds against have already been overcome in that it has happened, and will happen again. It will not be a media circus however, but a forensic procedure for the purpose of creating new records and evidence that can be used in a court of law.

The most logical place for it to occur is the closest world class forensic autopsy lab at George Washington University.

BK

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"JFK's body was reinterred during a secret, middle of the night, military exercise in 1968, while there was an active grand jury investigating the case in New Orleans.

The military moved the body to make room for the remains of the baby who died in 1963 and was reburried next to JFK. It was done in secret because if Garrision knew it was happening he probably would have requested a proper forensic autopsy.

There are pictures of the event, and it is believed that it was at this time RFK placed the brain of JFK into the casket before it was reburried."

Is that right, Bill? Would the remains of the baby have been the son born prematurely, who passed away, named Patrick? So, it was RFK who had possession of the brain for five years following the assassination. How did that happen?

And yes, George Washington University would be the most logical and appropriate place.

Hello Charles

What I have continued to find most discomforting in JFK research, are the topics which seem to elicit the greatest continuing interest, is the endless rehashing of forty year old discussions to which very little new material has been added.

It would seem to me that the "graphic evidence" to which you refer, should be found quite significant.

Not, however, for the impact which the horror of these photos provide, but as the closest likeness that I have seen, of what most eyewitnesses seem to have reported.

It seems to me that "the" major area in which this study has become seemingly hopelessly mired, is the disparity between what well over a hundred eyewitnesses reported, along with the corroborating statements of the EXPERT testimony of the Parkland Trauma Staff and many in attendance at the Bethesda Autopsy, with what was reported by the Warren Commission and the official autopsy report. The confliction of various autopsy photos with each other and with the autopsy xrays and autopsy report, further supports the very simple statement that "something is obviously and seriously wrong."

Finally there appears on this forum, a recreation that appears much more in accord with most eyewitness reports, and no one seems to care enough to comment on it. I don't think as educated adults, the excuse can be used that these photographs are in bad taste and too horrible to look at ! If this is the case, then progress is apparently a "side issue".

A review of some of the threads which continue to resurrect, cannot, in my straightforward opinion, lead toward an END. Yet this is the direction in which we choose to tread. Our treading is becoming a treadmill ! Of course, this is but an opinion of "one"!

Charles Black

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"I don't think as educated adults, the excuse can be used that these photographs are in bad taste and too horrible to look at ! If this is the case, then progress is apparently a "side issue"."

Or, possibly a "side show" for those who can't seem to stomach the forensics of the case.

"A review of some of the threads which continue to resurrect, cannot, in my straightforward opinion, lead toward an END. Yet this is the direction in which we choose to tread. Our treading is becoming a treadmill ! Of course, this is but an opinion of "one"!"

Nah, Charles. You can count me, and I'm sure there are quite a few others who feel the exact same way, regarding the subject.

Scan from Groden's booklet " JFK THE CASE FOR CONSPIRACY "

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"A bullet entering the rear of the head on a right to left trajectory would have exited around the front of the left cheek."

No. It would have blown out the front of the left cheek, if not the left side of his face, most likely taking the left eye, and some teeth with it.

I'd recommend that interested parties from this board register with Amazon (if they haven't already) and post specific errors and factual mistakes in the review section under Bugliosi's book, along with appropriate 1-star negative ratings (the system won't let us go to zero), with an emphasis on clearly describing the book's errors. Brian's rebuttals above with page numbers listed are excellent examples of the sort of thing that would be useful. The usual no-conspiracy-here-folks idiots appproving Bugliosi's work won't have as much traction if their fawning posts are balanced out by clear-cut pieces describing the work's factual errors and omissions. Once a review is there, it's there forever and can work wonders in informing newcomers and decreasing interest in the book.

As an aside, I checked the recent pre-order sales of this and Talbot's BROTHERS and Talbot's book was outselling Bugliosi's by a massive margin.

Anthony,

I agree that publishing reviews on Amazon for Bugliosi's book is quite a good idea, given that people determine whether or not to buy the book based upon others observations. This is the type of project that needs to be co-ordinated among the research community. As it stands, amazon reviews of JFK books are primarily the domain of David Von Pein. He does a thorough job of praising and bashing those books that fit his paradigm and those that do not.

I will be writing an article for the Dealey Plaza echo in the next few days based on the topic of co-operative research and projects. I will post it here when it is finished. It is about time that we start creating some counter propaganda of our own.

John

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"Anthony,

I agree that publishing reviews on Amazon for Bugliosi's book is quite a good idea, given that people determine whether or not to buy the book based upon others observations. This is the type of project that needs to be co-ordinated among the research community. As it stands, amazon reviews of JFK books are primarily the domain of David Von Pein. He does a thorough job of praising and bashing those books that fit his paradigm and those that do not."

This is an excellent idea, and should be organized and orchestrated by a contingency of those who have authored books and manuscripts that have relevant excerpts gleaned from Weisberg and others who have zeroed in on the inconsistencies in the Warren Commission Report and used it to advance the case for conspiracy. We shouldn't sit idle here allowing Bugliosi to reign supreme as some "be all" and "end all" answer to the assassination. Especially, when he's such an obvious sell-out. But, who's going to counter him? The sheeple will embrace this like manna from heaven. There's no time to waste. We need intelligent rebuttals appearing on amazon.com, since I seriously doubt they'll be allowed to surface in the editorials of the L.A. Times.

And now for some Friday humor: Rip Van Bugliosi's hometown paper reviews Bugliosi's new book.

http://www.calendarlive.com/books/la-bk-ne...-books-features

BOOK REVIEW 'Reclaiming History' by Vincent Bugliosi

An in-depth look at the many theories about the assassination of President John F. Kennedy

By Jim Newton

May 13, 2007

Reclaiming History: The Assassination of President John F. Kennedy

Vincent Bugliosi W.W. Norton: 1,612 pp., $49.95

Vincent BUGLIOSI is an American master of common sense, a punishing advocate and a curmudgeonly refreshing voice of reason.

.........

But no serious scholar of the president's assassination will ever write again on the subject without citing Bugliosi. And there are more works to come — most promising, a long-awaited look at the Warren Commission from author Max Holland ("The Kennedy Assassination Tapes").

No doubt there also will be more works of confusion and idiocy. Happily, however, from this point forward, all contributors to the field must build on "Reclaiming History."

With this work, Bugliosi has definitively explained the murder that recalibrated modern America. It is a book for the ages. jim.newton@latimes.com

Jim Newton, editor of The Times' editorial pages, is the author of "Justice for All: Earl Warren and the Nation He Made." Copyright 2007 Los Angeles Times

http://www.calendarlive.com/books/la-bk-ne...-books-features

I sent a little note to Jim Newton and he actually replied. I reminded him that some years ago he published an op-ed piece on the Warren Commission by former WC attorney Richard Mosk, and my response was published, much to my surprise.

Also note that the LA Times and Rolling Stone are the only mainstream publications that think E. Howard Hunt's words on the assassination are newsworthy.

Newton said we'll just have to "agree to disagree" on the evidence, and suggested that I read Bugliosi's book.

I agreed if he will publish my review and read David Talbot's Brothers.

Maybe John can get Bugliosi to join the forum and answer some questions and we can give some real meaning to the Debate in JFK Assassination Debate.

BK

**************************************************************

"Maybe John can get Bugliosi to join the forum and answer some questions and we can give some real meaning to the Debate in JFK Assassination Debate."

I wouldn't count on it. Especially after reading "From the introduction: [posted by Mike Hogan]

"From the introduction:

Ninety-nine percent of the conspiracy community are not, of course, writers and authors. These conspiracy "buffs" (as they are frequently called) are obsessed with the assassination, have formed networks among their peers, and actually attend conspiracy-oriented conventions around the country. Though most of them are as kooky as a three-dollar bill in their beliefs and paranoia about the assassination, it is my sense that their motivations are patriotic and that they are sincere in their misguided and uninformed conclusions. I cannot say that about the conspiracy authors....."

Observe his condescending attitude toward the research community, as a whole. And, it's certainly quite evident how much disdain he holds for the "conspiracy authors."

I'm having the same problem with these dupes terry

Anyway, there's some interesting stuff to be found here if you search on Pawley, Talisman and Clifton Co. (& Corp.):

http://www.pbcountyclerk.com/oris/records_home.html

I won't bore you with the tidbits but I found one agreement between Clifton Co. & Humbolt Oil if that means anything - Oil & Gas rights in Palm Beach County circa 1968?? weird.

The land deals between Clifton/Pawley/Talisman are noteable for the amounts that they were dealing with: 3-9 million in 60's $$$ is quite a bit of cash.

Excellent work Chris!

Not only have you located the "smoking gun", but you have also found the unfired bullets as well.

The absolute "Direct" link between William D. Pawley, Talisman Sugar, and the good ole "First City National Bank" boys as well.

MONEY!

**********************************************************

Great find, Chris. Thanks for the link, too. Humboldt Oil = Humble, Getty, possible Mobile subsidiaries? Gas stations in New York State in the late 60's early 70's. I remember seeing the names change from Sunoco in the early 50's, to Esso in the mid 50's, to Mobil in the early 60's, to Humble briefly in the late 60's, to Getty in the early 70's, back to Sunoco in the early 80's, to who-knows-what after that, maybe Citgo? Oil and the banks rule. At $3.89 a gallon here in L.A. That's the impending downfall slated for this present nouveau riche Roman Empire, known as the U.S. of A, and her Mother, the U.K.

BOB DYLAN'S 115TH DREAM

I was riding on the Mayflower

When I thought I spied some land

I yelled for Captain Arab

I have yuh understand

Who came running to the deck

Said, "Boys, forget the whale

Look on over yonder

Cut the engines

Change the sail

Haul on the bowline"

We sang that melody

Like all tough sailors do

When they are far away at sea

"I think I'll call it America"

I said as we hit land

I took a deep breath

I fell down, I could not stand

Captain Arab he started

Writing up some deeds

He said, "Let's set up a fort

And start buying the place with beads"

Just then this cop comes down the street

Crazy as a loon

He throw us all in jail

For carryin' harpoons

Ah me I busted out

Don't even ask me how

I went to get some help

I walked by a Guernsey cow

Who directed me down

To the Bowery slums

Where people carried signs around

Saying, "Ban the bums"

I jumped right into line

Sayin', "I hope that I'm not late"

When I realized I hadn't eaten

For five days straight

I went into a restaurant

Lookin' for the cook

I told them I was the editor

Of a famous etiquette book

The waitress he was handsome

He wore a powder blue cape

I ordered some suzette, I said

"Could you please make that crepe"

Just then the whole kitchen exploded

From boilin' fat

Food was flying everywhere

And I left without my hat

Now, I didn't mean to be nosy

But I went into a bank

To get some bail for Arab

And all the boys back in the tank

They asked me for some collateral

And I pulled down my pants

They threw me in the alley

When up comes this girl from France

Who invited me to her house

I went, but she had a friend

Who knocked me out

And robbed my boots

And I was on the street again

Well, I rapped upon a house

With the U.S. flag upon display

I said, "Could you help me out

I got some friends down the way"

The man says, "Get out of here

I'll tear you limb from limb"

I said, "You know they refused Jesus, too"

He said, "You're not Him

Get out of here before I break your bones

I ain't your pop"

I decided to have him arrested

And I went looking for a cop

I ran right outside

And I hopped inside a cab

I went out the other door

This Englishman said, "Fab"

As he saw me leap a hot dog stand

And a chariot that stood

Parked across from a building

Advertising brotherhood

I ran right through the front door

Like a hobo sailor does

But it was just a funeral parlor

And the man asked me who I was

I repeated that my friends

Were all in jail, with a sigh

He gave me his card

He said, "Call me if they die"

I shook his hand and said goodbye

Ran out to the street

When a bowling ball came down the road

And knocked me off my feet

A pay phone was ringing

It just about blew my mind

When I picked it up and said hello

This foot came through the line

Well, by this time I was fed up

At tryin' to make a stab

At bringin' back any help

For my friends and Captain Arab

I decided to flip a coin

Like either heads or tails

Would let me know if I should go

Back to ship or back to jail

So I hocked my sailor suit

And I got a coin to flip

It came up tails

It rhymed with sails

So I made it back to the ship

Well, I got back and took

The parkin' ticket off the mast

I was ripping it to shreds

When this coastguard boat went past

They asked me my name

And I said, "Captain Kidd"

They believed me but

They wanted to know

What exactly that I did

I said for the Pope of Eruke

I was employed

They let me go right away

They were very paranoid

Well, the last I heard of Arab

He was stuck on a whale

That was married to the deputy

Sheriff of the jail

But the funniest thing was

When I was leavin' the bay

I saw three ships a-sailin'

They were all heading my way

I asked the captain what his name was

And how come he didn't drive a truck

He said his name was Columbus

I just said, "Good luck."

Copyright © 1965; renewed 1993 Special Rider Music

Think of the impact that Leno and Letterman could have if they tried. Every night they have some actor or actress on to promote a new movie. In fact, that's all those shows are anymore, programs to promote Hollywood movies. So they have these stars on to conduct boring conversations about their dogs and cats before showing the movie clips that they're there for. Why not get these people to express what they think about unanwered questions of 9/11, or E. Howard Hunt's confession, or anything to get people to THINK about such issues? Viewers would be all ears, whether agreeing or not. But I guess Leno and Letterman would soon be brought back in line or be out of jobs.

I've consistently read that Phil Donohue's show was canceled prior to the Iraq invasion because it gave viewers an alternative to propaganda.

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0227-04.htm

Donahue talked about this a few weeks back on Bill Moyers' program. He said that he was told by MSNBC that he could not have someone opposed to Bush' policies on his show unless he also had someone supporting Bush' policies. He was told as well that he COULD have someone on the program supporting Bush' policies without representing the other side. To their thinking, he (Donahue) counted as a liberal, and should not be allowed to stack the deck against the administration. They then canceled his show even though its ratings were good. A few weeks later, we invaded Iraq.

*********************************************************

Besides the fact that CBS, is aka the C.i.a Broadcasting System, and NBC is owned by The General [G.E.] with people like John Train working behind the scenes to discredit, slander, and/or railroad anyone, who might happen to take a stance against the Conservative element, off to jail for a few years, for expressing an opinion other than that of Mockingbird's "status quo."

http://courtcon.co.palm-beach.fl.us/pls/ji...=&end_date=

Case Caption: FL STATE OF DOT V DIRR FARMS INC ET AL

Case Parties

DEFENDANT P0174255 GRABOVE, MAXWELL

================================================================================

===

DEFENDANT P0174257 IMMER, JOHN G

-------------------------------------------------------------------

SUGAR CANE FARMS CO

Date Filed

05/19/1961

Officer/Director Detail Name & Address Title

IMMER, JOHN G.

100 BISCAYNE BLVD. #700

MIAMI FL PD

GRABOVE, MAXWELL

100 BISCAYNE BLVD. #700

MIAMI FL SD

BARNS, PAUL D., JR.

100 BISCAYNE BLVD. #700

MIAMI FL

================================================================================

===

DEFENDANT P0174251 BARNES, PAUL D

================================================================================

===

K PINE ESTATES, INC

PRINCIPAL ADDRESS

SUITE 700, 100 BISCAYNE BLVD.

MIAMI FL

Officer/Director Detail Name & Address Title

PAJON, EDUARDO RODRIGUEZ

100 BISCYANE TOWER

MIAMI FL PD

IMMER, JOHN G.

100 BISCAYNE TOWER

MIAMI FL VD

GRABOVE, MAXWELL

100 BISCAYNE TOWER

MIAMI FL ST

GRABOVE, MAXWELL

100 BISCAYNE TOWER

MIAMI FL D

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

THE CLIFTON CORPORATION OF MIAMI

Date Filed

10/18/1957

Registered Agent

Name & Address

PAWLEY,WILLIAM D

260 NE 17TH TERR

MIAMI FL 33132

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Officer/Director Detail Name & Address Title

PAWLEY,EDWARD P.

260 NE 17TH TERRACE

MIAMI FL VD

PAWLEY,ANITA (ASST)

260 NE 17TH TERRACE

MIAMI FL SD

PAJON,EDWARD

260 NE 17TH TERRACE

MIAMI FL S

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

CONTINENTAL BLANCORP, INC.

PRINCIPAL ADDRESS

C/O SALLEY, BARNS, PAJON & IMMER

100 BISCAYNE BLVD.

MIAMI FL

Registered Agent

Name & Address

PAJON, EDUARDO R.

SUITE 700

100 BISCAYNE BLVD.

MIAMI FL 33132

Officer/Director Detail Name & Address Title

GRABOVE, MAXWELL

100 BISCAYNE BLVD.

MIAMI FL D

IMMER, JOHN G.

100 BISCAYNE BLVD.

MIAMI FL D

PAJON, EDUARDO R.

100 BISCAYNE BLVD.

MIAMI FL

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.lagorcecc.com/fw/main/History-2.html

Among those leaders were former Governor James Cox, William Pawley, Frank Smathers, Hugh Purvis, Paul Scott, George Sally,

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

FLYING TIGER YACHT, INC

PRINCIPAL ADDRESS

SUITE 700 100 BISCAYNE TOWER

100 BISCAYNE BLVD.

MIAMI FL 33132

Registered Agent

Name & Address

SALLEY, (GEORGE H.)

SUITE 700 100 BISCAYNE TOWER

100 BISCAYNE BLVD.

MIAMI FL

Officer/Director Detail Name & Address Title

PAWLEY, (WILLIAM D )

MIAMI FL PD

FERRE, (MAURICE A )

MIAMI FL VD

SALLEY, ( GEORGE H )

MIAMI FL SD

GRABOVE,(MAXWELL)

MIAMI FL

http://courtcon.co.palm-beach.fl.us/pls/ji...=&end_date=

DEFENDANT P0174255 GRABOVE, MAXWELL

DEFENDANT B0036124 SOUTHERN STATES LAND & TIMBER CORP

Founded in 1907 as Southern States Land & Timber Company. In 1937 name changed to Southern States Land & Timber Corp.

Officer/Director Detail Name & Address Title

STERN, S. WALTER

NEW ORLEANS LA PD

MCCARTHY, T.H.

PARIS, FRANCE VD

BRIGHT, EDGAR A. G.

NEW ORLEANS LA TD

BENSEL, GEORGE F.

WEST PALM BEACH FL SD

LEHMAN, ALLAN

NEW YORK NY D

STERN, EDGAR B.

NEW ORLEANS LA

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*****************************************************************

Thanks, Purv. These threads are, by far, the most interesting and enlightening in when it comes to piecing this puzzle together.

DEFENDANT P0174255 GRABOVE, MAXWELL

DEFENDANT B0036124 SOUTHERN STATES LAND & TIMBER CORP

Founded in 1907 as Southern States Land & Timber Company. In 1937 name changed to Southern States Land & Timber Corp.

Officer/Director Detail Name & Address Title

STERN, S. WALTER

NEW ORLEANS LA PD

MCCARTHY, T.H.

PARIS, FRANCE VD

BRIGHT, EDGAR A. G.

NEW ORLEANS LA TD

BENSEL, GEORGE F.

WEST PALM BEACH FL SD

LEHMAN, ALLAN

NEW YORK NY D

STERN, EDGAR B.

NEW ORLEANS LA

---------------------------------------------------------

SOUTHERN STATES LAND AND TIMBER CORPORATION

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PRINCIPAL ADDRESS

228 ST CHARLES AVENUE

SUITE 1024

NEW ORLEANS LA 70130-2607

Changed 04/26/1999

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

MAILING ADDRESS

228 ST CHARLES AVENUE

SUITE 1024

NEW ORLEANS LA 70130-2607

Changed 04/26/1999

Officer/Director Detail

LEEFE, RICHARD K

3900 CAUSEWAY BLVD. SUITE 1470

METAIRIE LA 70002

================================================================================

==

Name: SOUTHERN STATES LAND & TIMBER CORPORATION

Merger or Conversion Information: MERGED INTO SOUTHERN STATES LAND & TIMBER LLC, DOMICILED AT

TALLAHASSEE, FLORIDA ON MARCH 20, 2002. MERGER WAS FILED IN

DELAWARE ON JANUARY 29, 2002 WITH AN EFFECTIVE DATE IN

DELAWARE OF JANUARY 31, 2002.

Type Entity: Business Corporation (Non-Louisiana)

Status: Not Active (Voluntary action)

Last Report Filed on 10/11/2001

Mailing Address: 228 ST. CHARLES AVENUE, #1024, NEW ORLEANS, LA 70130

Domicile Address: 100 WEST 10TH STREET, WILMINGTON, DE 19801

Principal Office: 228 ST. CHARLES AVENUE, #1024, NEW ORLEANS, LA 70130

Principal Bus. Est. in Louisiana: 228 ST. CHARLES AVENUE, #1024, NEW ORLEANS, LA 70130

Qualified: 10/25/1989

Registered Agent (Appointed 10/11/2001): RICHARD K. LEEFE, 3900 N. CAUSEWAY BLVD. #1470, METAIRIE, LA 70002

Secretary/Treasurer: KIMBERLY M. QUINTANA, 228 ST. CHARLES AVENUE, NEW ORLEANS, LA 70170-3300

President: RONALD C. CAMBRE, 1700 LINCOLN ST., DENVER, CO 80203

Director: RONALD C. CAMBRE, 1700 LINCOLN ST., DENVER, CO 80203

Vice President: RICHARD K. LEEFE, 3900 N. CAUSEWAY BLVD. #1470, METAIRIE, LA 70002

================================================================================

===

Thanks, Purv. These threads are, by far, the most interesting and enlightening in when it comes to piecing this puzzle together.

Thanks Terry!

Sometimes, one has a "good day". And then there are those days when one should not even bother to get up out of bed.

***************************************************************************

"Perhaps to some, the "brain games" have sufficiently stimulated the cerebral cortex to the extent that they will cease to chase the smoke and BS."

That would be ideal, Purv. But, I ain't gonna hold my breath. I just might suffocate myself, ya know?

"Thanks Terry!

Sometimes, one has a "good day". And then there are those days when one should not even bother to get up out of bed."

Yeah. And, sometimes, you just might as well be casting pearls before swine, my friend. Let's just hope for more of those "good" days for you, and for those who've learned to see through the smoke, and not get asphyxiated by it.

Well, I'm headed up to Bakersfield to my niece's 21st birthday party today, and hopefully to drag my old friend, Dixie Dea out for dinner on Sunday. Short roadtrip, but long overdue.

Take care of yourself, Purv. I'll be back 'atcha after I get home to Culver City on Sunday night.

Ter

Well, the "fat lady" ain't sung yet, but I sure here someone humming "Dixie".

FLORIDA CORPORATIONS

SOUTHERN STATES LAND AND TIMBER CORPORATION

Date Filed

12/11/1936

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PRINCIPAL ADDRESS

228 ST CHARLES AVENUE

SUITE 1024

NEW ORLEANS LA 70130-2607

Changed 04/26/1999

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

MAILING ADDRESS

228 ST CHARLES AVENUE

SUITE 1024

NEW ORLEANS LA 70130-2607

Changed 04/26/1999

Officer/Director Detail

Name & Address Title

BURGUIERES, PHILIP

711 LOUISIANA, 33RD FLOOR

HOUSTON TX 77002-2734 CD

HINZ, SHIRLEY J

652 CYPRESS KEY CIRCLE

ATLANTIS FL 33462 D

BRIGHT, TIMOTHY P III

3340 PEACHTREE RD NE, TOWER 100, STE 930

ATLANTA GA 30326 D

LEEFE, RICHARD K

3900 CAUSEWAY BLVD. SUITE 1470

METAIRIE LA 70002 VPD

CAMBRE, RONALD C

1700 LINCOLN ST

DENVER CO 80203 PD

HINZ, SHIRLEY J

652 CYPRESS KEY CIRCLE

ATLANTIS FL 33462

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Louisiana Secretary of State

Detailed Record

Charter/Organization ID: 34342578F

Name: SOUTHERN STATES LAND & TIMBER CORPORATION

Merger or Conversion Information: MERGED INTO SOUTHERN STATES LAND & TIMBER LLC, DOMICILED AT

TALLAHASSEE, FLORIDA ON MARCH 20, 2002. MERGER WAS FILED IN

DELAWARE ON JANUARY 29, 2002 WITH AN EFFECTIVE DATE IN

DELAWARE OF JANUARY 31, 2002.

Type Entity: Business Corporation (Non-Louisiana)

Status: Not Active (Voluntary action)

Last Report Filed on 10/11/2001

Mailing Address: 228 ST. CHARLES AVENUE, #1024, NEW ORLEANS, LA 70130

Domicile Address: 100 WEST 10TH STREET, WILMINGTON, DE 19801

Principal Office: 228 ST. CHARLES AVENUE, #1024, NEW ORLEANS, LA 70130

Principal Bus. Est. in Louisiana: 228 ST. CHARLES AVENUE, #1024, NEW ORLEANS, LA 70130

Qualified: 10/25/1989

Registered Agent (Appointed 10/11/2001): RICHARD K. LEEFE, 3900 N. CAUSEWAY BLVD. #1470, METAIRIE, LA 70002

Secretary/Treasurer: KIMBERLY M. QUINTANA, 228 ST. CHARLES AVENUE, NEW ORLEANS, LA 70170-3300

President: RONALD C. CAMBRE, 1700 LINCOLN ST., DENVER, CO 80203

Director: RONALD C. CAMBRE, 1700 LINCOLN ST., DENVER, CO 80203

Vice President: RICHARD K. LEEFE, 3900 N. CAUSEWAY BLVD. #1470, METAIRIE, LA 70002

Director: RICHARD K. LEEFE, 3900 N. CAUSEWAY BLVD. #1470, METAIRIE, LA 70002

Additional officers may exist on document

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Name: NORTHSEA ALASKA CORPORATION

Type Entity: Business Corporation

Status: Not Active (Voluntary action)

Last Report Filed on 01/01/A-75

Mailing Address: 1300 HIBERNIA BUILDING, NEW ORLEANS, LA 70112

Domicile Address: 1300 HIBERNIA BUILDING, NEW ORLEANS, LA 70112 File Date: 11/14/1973

Registered Agent (Appointed 11/20/1981): C T CORPORATION SYSTEM, 1300 HIBERNIA BUILDING, NEW ORLEANS, LA 70112 President: JACK J. DEWALD, 7323 WEST ROADWAY, NEW ORLEANS, LA 70124

Secretary: RICHARD LEEFE, 144 ELK PLACE, NEW ORLEANS, LA 70112

Director: GEORGE A. FARBER, 144 ELK PLACE, NEW ORLEANS, LA 70112

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Louisiana Secretary of State

Detailed Record

Charter/Organization ID: 02100760X

Name: VIGILANCE INCORPORATED

Type Entity: Non-Profit Corporation or Co-op (Non-Louisiana)

Status: Not Active (Action by Secretary of State)

2007 Annual Report/Reinstatement form is required in order to reinstate Print Annual Report/Reinstatement Form For Filing

Mailing Address: 100 W 10TH ST, WILMINGTON, DE 19801

Domicile Address: 100 W 10TH ST, WILMINGTON, DE 19801

Principal Office: 100 W 10TH ST, WILMINGTON, DE 19801

Qualified: 03/16/1951

Registered Agent (Appointed 3/16/1951): CHARLES E. DUNBAR, JR., 1300 HIBERNIA BLDG, NEW ORLEANS, LA 70112

Registered Agent (Appointed 3/16/1951): SUMTER D. MARKS, JR., 1300 HIBERNIA BLDG, NEW ORLEANS, LA 70112

Registered Agent (Appointed 3/16/1951): LOUIS B. CLAVERIE, 1300 HIBERNIA BLDG, NEW ORLEANS, LA 70112

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Florida Profit

FLYING TIGER YACHT, INC.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PRINCIPAL ADDRESS

SUITE 700 100 BISCAYNE TOWER

100 BISCAYNE BLVD.

MIAMI FL 33132

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

MAILING ADDRESS

SUITE 700 100 BISCAYNE TOWER100 BISCAYNE BLVD.

MIAMI FL 33132

Document Number

440548 FEI Number

591515110 Date Filed

12/17/1973

State

FL Status

INACTIVE Effective Date

NONE

Last Event

VOLUNTARY DISSOLUTION Event Date Filed

12/31/1974 Event Effective Date

NONE

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Registered Agent

Name & Address

SALLEY, (GEORGE H.)

SUITE 700 100 BISCAYNE TOWER

100 BISCAYNE BLVD.

MIAMI FL

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Officer/Director Detail Name & Address Title

PAWLEY, (WILLIAM D )

MIAMI FL PD

FERRE, (MAURICE A )

MIAMI FL VD

SALLEY, ( GEORGE H )

MIAMI FL SD

GRABOVE,(MAXWELL)

MIAMI FL T

================================================================================

===

Florida Profit

CONTINENTAL BLANCORP, INC.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PRINCIPAL ADDRESS

C/O SALLEY, BARNS, PAJON & IMMER

100 BISCAYNE BLVD.

MIAMI FL

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

MAILING ADDRESS

C/O SALLEY, BARNS, PAJON & IMMER

100 BISCAYNE BLVD.

MIAMI FL

Document Number

394990 FEI Number

000000000 Date Filed

02/01/1972

State

FL Status

INACTIVE Effective Date

NONE

Last Event

DISSOLVED BY PROCLAMATION Event Date Filed

10/21/1974 Event Effective Date

NONE

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Registered Agent

Name & Address

PAJON, EDUARDO R.

SUITE 700

100 BISCAYNE BLVD.MIAMI FL 33132

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Officer/Director Detail Name & Address Title

GRABOVE, MAXWELL

100 BISCAYNE BLVD.

MIAMI FL D

IMMER, JOHN G.

100 BISCAYNE BLVD.

MIAMI FL D

PAJON, EDUARDO R.

100 BISCAYNE BLVD.

MIAMI FL D

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.frankkryder.com/systab.htm

Registered Agent Name & Address C T CORPORATION SYSTEM 100 BISCAYNE BLVD MIAMI FL 33132

************************************************************

Well, hot damn, Purv! They weren't just "whistling Dixie," when they warned that "The South was going to rise again!" Now, were they? We just never believed it would be exactly 100 years later, and coming out of Dallas. They sure in hell know how to hold a grudge, don't they? Or, maybe they just have long memories, kind of like elephants?

Made it back in one piece from Bake. Dixie and I had a ball.

Now, it's off to work, for me. Catch you later.

Ter

http://courtcon.co.palm-beach.fl.us/pls/ji...=&end_date=

Case Caption: FL STATE OF DOT V DIRR FARMS INC ET AL

Case Parties

DEFENDANT P0174255 GRABOVE, MAXWELL

================================================================================

===

DEFENDANT P0174257 IMMER, JOHN G

-------------------------------------------------------------------

SUGAR CANE FARMS CO

Date Filed

05/19/1961

Officer/Director Detail Name & Address Title

IMMER, JOHN G.

100 BISCAYNE BLVD. #700

MIAMI FL PD

GRABOVE, MAXWELL

100 BISCAYNE BLVD. #700

MIAMI FL SD

BARNS, PAUL D., JR.

100 BISCAYNE BLVD. #700

MIAMI FL

================================================================================

===

DEFENDANT P0174251 BARNES, PAUL D

================================================================================

===

K PINE ESTATES, INC

PRINCIPAL ADDRESS

SUITE 700, 100 BISCAYNE BLVD.

MIAMI FL

Officer/Director Detail Name & Address Title

PAJON, EDUARDO RODRIGUEZ

100 BISCYANE TOWER

MIAMI FL PD

IMMER, JOHN G.

100 BISCAYNE TOWER

MIAMI FL VD

GRABOVE, MAXWELL

100 BISCAYNE TOWER

MIAMI FL ST

GRABOVE, MAXWELL

100 BISCAYNE TOWER

MIAMI FL D

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

THE CLIFTON CORPORATION OF MIAMI

Date Filed

10/18/1957

Registered Agent

Name & Address

PAWLEY,WILLIAM D

260 NE 17TH TERR

MIAMI FL 33132

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Officer/Director Detail Name & Address Title

PAWLEY,EDWARD P.

260 NE 17TH TERRACE

MIAMI FL VD

PAWLEY,ANITA (ASST)

260 NE 17TH TERRACE

MIAMI FL SD

PAJON,EDWARD

260 NE 17TH TERRACE

MIAMI FL S

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

CONTINENTAL BLANCORP, INC.

PRINCIPAL ADDRESS

C/O SALLEY, BARNS, PAJON & IMMER

100 BISCAYNE BLVD.

MIAMI FL

Registered Agent

Name & Address

PAJON, EDUARDO R.

SUITE 700

100 BISCAYNE BLVD.

MIAMI FL 33132

Officer/Director Detail Name & Address Title

GRABOVE, MAXWELL

100 BISCAYNE BLVD.

MIAMI FL D

IMMER, JOHN G.

100 BISCAYNE BLVD.

MIAMI FL D

PAJON, EDUARDO R.

100 BISCAYNE BLVD.

MIAMI FL

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.lagorcecc.com/fw/main/History-2.html

Among those leaders were former Governor James Cox, William Pawley, Frank Smathers, Hugh Purvis, Paul Scott, George Sally,

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

FLYING TIGER YACHT, INC

PRINCIPAL ADDRESS

SUITE 700 100 BISCAYNE TOWER

100 BISCAYNE BLVD.

MIAMI FL 33132

Registered Agent

Name & Address

SALLEY, (GEORGE H.)

SUITE 700 100 BISCAYNE TOWER

100 BISCAYNE BLVD.

MIAMI FL

Officer/Director Detail Name & Address Title

PAWLEY, (WILLIAM D )

MIAMI FL PD

FERRE, (MAURICE A )

MIAMI FL VD

SALLEY, ( GEORGE H )

MIAMI FL SD

GRABOVE,(MAXWELL)

MIAMI FL

http://courtcon.co.palm-beach.fl.us/pls/ji...=&end_date=

DEFENDANT P0174255 GRABOVE, MAXWELL

DEFENDANT B0036124 SOUTHERN STATES LAND & TIMBER CORP

Founded in 1907 as Southern States Land & Timber Company. In 1937 name changed to Southern States Land & Timber Corp.

Officer/Director Detail Name & Address Title

STERN, S. WALTER

NEW ORLEANS LA PD

MCCARTHY, T.H.

PARIS, FRANCE VD

BRIGHT, EDGAR A. G.

NEW ORLEANS LA TD

BENSEL, GEORGE F.

WEST PALM BEACH FL SD

LEHMAN, ALLAN

NEW YORK NY D

STERN, EDGAR B.

NEW ORLEANS LA

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*****************************************************************

Thanks, Purv. These threads are, by far, the most interesting and enlightening in when it comes to piecing this puzzle together.

DEFENDANT P0174255 GRABOVE, MAXWELL

DEFENDANT B0036124 SOUTHERN STATES LAND & TIMBER CORP

Founded in 1907 as Southern States Land & Timber Company. In 1937 name changed to Southern States Land & Timber Corp.

Officer/Director Detail Name & Address Title

STERN, S. WALTER

NEW ORLEANS LA PD

MCCARTHY, T.H.

PARIS, FRANCE VD

BRIGHT, EDGAR A. G.

NEW ORLEANS LA TD

BENSEL, GEORGE F.

WEST PALM BEACH FL SD

LEHMAN, ALLAN

NEW YORK NY D

STERN, EDGAR B.

NEW ORLEANS LA

---------------------------------------------------------

SOUTHERN STATES LAND AND TIMBER CORPORATION

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PRINCIPAL ADDRESS

228 ST CHARLES AVENUE

SUITE 1024

NEW ORLEANS LA 70130-2607

Changed 04/26/1999

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

MAILING ADDRESS

228 ST CHARLES AVENUE

SUITE 1024

NEW ORLEANS LA 70130-2607

Changed 04/26/1999

Officer/Director Detail

LEEFE, RICHARD K

3900 CAUSEWAY BLVD. SUITE 1470

METAIRIE LA 70002

================================================================================

==

Name: SOUTHERN STATES LAND & TIMBER CORPORATION

Merger or Conversion Information: MERGED INTO SOUTHERN STATES LAND & TIMBER LLC, DOMICILED AT

TALLAHASSEE, FLORIDA ON MARCH 20, 2002. MERGER WAS FILED IN

DELAWARE ON JANUARY 29, 2002 WITH AN EFFECTIVE DATE IN

DELAWARE OF JANUARY 31, 2002.

Type Entity: Business Corporation (Non-Louisiana)

Status: Not Active (Voluntary action)

Last Report Filed on 10/11/2001

Mailing Address: 228 ST. CHARLES AVENUE, #1024, NEW ORLEANS, LA 70130

Domicile Address: 100 WEST 10TH STREET, WILMINGTON, DE 19801

Principal Office: 228 ST. CHARLES AVENUE, #1024, NEW ORLEANS, LA 70130

Principal Bus. Est. in Louisiana: 228 ST. CHARLES AVENUE, #1024, NEW ORLEANS, LA 70130

Qualified: 10/25/1989

Registered Agent (Appointed 10/11/2001): RICHARD K. LEEFE, 3900 N. CAUSEWAY BLVD. #1470, METAIRIE, LA 70002

Secretary/Treasurer: KIMBERLY M. QUINTANA, 228 ST. CHARLES AVENUE, NEW ORLEANS, LA 70170-3300

President: RONALD C. CAMBRE, 1700 LINCOLN ST., DENVER, CO 80203

Director: RONALD C. CAMBRE, 1700 LINCOLN ST., DENVER, CO 80203

Vice President: RICHARD K. LEEFE, 3900 N. CAUSEWAY BLVD. #1470, METAIRIE, LA 70002

================================================================================

===

Thanks, Purv. These threads are, by far, the most interesting and enlightening in when it comes to piecing this puzzle together.

Thanks Terry!

Sometimes, one has a "good day". And then there are those days when one should not even bother to get up out of bed.

***************************************************************************

"Perhaps to some, the "brain games" have sufficiently stimulated the cerebral cortex to the extent that they will cease to chase the smoke and BS."

That would be ideal, Purv. But, I ain't gonna hold my breath. I just might suffocate myself, ya know?

"Thanks Terry!

Sometimes, one has a "good day". And then there are those days when one should not even bother to get up out of bed."

Yeah. And, sometimes, you just might as well be casting pearls before swine, my friend. Let's just hope for more of those "good" days for you, and for those who've learned to see through the smoke, and not get asphyxiated by it.

Well, I'm headed up to Bakersfield to my niece's 21st birthday party today, and hopefully to drag my old friend, Dixie Dea out for dinner on Sunday. Short roadtrip, but long overdue.

Take care of yourself, Purv. I'll be back 'atcha after I get home to Culver City on Sunday night.

Ter

http://courtcon.co.palm-beach.fl.us/pls/ji...=&end_date=

Case Caption: FL STATE OF DOT V DIRR FARMS INC ET AL

Case Parties

DEFENDANT P0174255 GRABOVE, MAXWELL

================================================================================

===

DEFENDANT P0174257 IMMER, JOHN G

-------------------------------------------------------------------

SUGAR CANE FARMS CO

Date Filed

05/19/1961

Officer/Director Detail Name & Address Title

IMMER, JOHN G.

100 BISCAYNE BLVD. #700

MIAMI FL PD

GRABOVE, MAXWELL

100 BISCAYNE BLVD. #700

MIAMI FL SD

BARNS, PAUL D., JR.

100 BISCAYNE BLVD. #700

MIAMI FL

================================================================================

===

DEFENDANT P0174251 BARNES, PAUL D

================================================================================

===

K PINE ESTATES, INC

PRINCIPAL ADDRESS

SUITE 700, 100 BISCAYNE BLVD.

MIAMI FL

Officer/Director Detail Name & Address Title

PAJON, EDUARDO RODRIGUEZ

100 BISCYANE TOWER

MIAMI FL PD

IMMER, JOHN G.

100 BISCAYNE TOWER

MIAMI FL VD

GRABOVE, MAXWELL

100 BISCAYNE TOWER

MIAMI FL ST

GRABOVE, MAXWELL

100 BISCAYNE TOWER

MIAMI FL D

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

THE CLIFTON CORPORATION OF MIAMI

Date Filed

10/18/1957

Registered Agent

Name & Address

PAWLEY,WILLIAM D

260 NE 17TH TERR

MIAMI FL 33132

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Officer/Director Detail Name & Address Title

PAWLEY,EDWARD P.

260 NE 17TH TERRACE

MIAMI FL VD

PAWLEY,ANITA (ASST)

260 NE 17TH TERRACE

MIAMI FL SD

PAJON,EDWARD

260 NE 17TH TERRACE

MIAMI FL S

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

CONTINENTAL BLANCORP, INC.

PRINCIPAL ADDRESS

C/O SALLEY, BARNS, PAJON & IMMER

100 BISCAYNE BLVD.

MIAMI FL

Registered Agent

Name & Address

PAJON, EDUARDO R.

SUITE 700

100 BISCAYNE BLVD.

MIAMI FL 33132

Officer/Director Detail Name & Address Title

GRABOVE, MAXWELL

100 BISCAYNE BLVD.

MIAMI FL D

IMMER, JOHN G.

100 BISCAYNE BLVD.

MIAMI FL D

PAJON, EDUARDO R.

100 BISCAYNE BLVD.

MIAMI FL

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.lagorcecc.com/fw/main/History-2.html

Among those leaders were former Governor James Cox, William Pawley, Frank Smathers, Hugh Purvis, Paul Scott, George Sally,

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

FLYING TIGER YACHT, INC

PRINCIPAL ADDRESS

SUITE 700 100 BISCAYNE TOWER

100 BISCAYNE BLVD.

MIAMI FL 33132

Registered Agent

Name & Address

SALLEY, (GEORGE H.)

SUITE 700 100 BISCAYNE TOWER

100 BISCAYNE BLVD.

MIAMI FL

Officer/Director Detail Name & Address Title

PAWLEY, (WILLIAM D )

MIAMI FL PD

FERRE, (MAURICE A )

MIAMI FL VD

SALLEY, ( GEORGE H )

MIAMI FL SD

GRABOVE,(MAXWELL)

MIAMI FL

http://courtcon.co.palm-beach.fl.us/pls/ji...=&end_date=

DEFENDANT P0174255 GRABOVE, MAXWELL

DEFENDANT B0036124 SOUTHERN STATES LAND & TIMBER CORP

Founded in 1907 as Southern States Land & Timber Company. In 1937 name changed to Southern States Land & Timber Corp.

Officer/Director Detail Name & Address Title

STERN, S. WALTER

NEW ORLEANS LA PD

MCCARTHY, T.H.

PARIS, FRANCE VD

BRIGHT, EDGAR A. G.

NEW ORLEANS LA TD

BENSEL, GEORGE F.

WEST PALM BEACH FL SD

LEHMAN, ALLAN

NEW YORK NY D

STERN, EDGAR B.

NEW ORLEANS LA

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*****************************************************************

Thanks, Purv. These threads are, by far, the most interesting and enlightening in when it comes to piecing this puzzle together.

Bill Pawley did not found the AVG. The sequence was that Mme. Chiang wanted to create an air force for KMT China, not because she knew anything about air forces, but because she wanted to play a glamorous role in the “defense” of China against the Japanese, who had been encroaching on China for decades - long before America became involved. Her husband, Generalissimo Chiang, “gave” Mme. Chiang the fledgeling KMT air force as her toy, partly to placate her and keep her off his back. She made inquiries in America, looking for somebody who could train her air force. The KMT military attache took her to an air show where Chennault (forced out of the US Army Air Corps for being a blowhard) and his group were performing, she was impressed, asked to meet Chennault, charmed him, and made him an offer on the spot. Chennault accepted so eagerly that he left for China without bothering to inform his wife and family, whom he abandoned. His initial effort to create a KMT air force and train its pilots was a fiasco when they bombed their own people instead of the Japanese. Chennault and Mme. Chiang asked Henry Luce and Tommy Corcoran to help, and Corcoran asked FDR to make fighter aircraft available, and experienced American pilots to fly them. P-40s already destined for Britain were diverted to Burma by FDR’s intercession. FDR then approved the creation of a pseudo “mercenary” air force by taking a number of pilots out of active service and sending them to Burma. To increase their number, trouble-making pilots who were in military stockades were freed on the condition that they go to Burma to fly in China against the Japanese. This was all sub rosa, because America was then not at war with Japan. The so-called “American Volunteer Group” was portrayed as freelance or “mercenary”, but they were actually on a covert mission. Pawley was brought in by Tommy Corcoran to head CAMCO, the engineering company that would assemble the crated airplanes to be flown by the AVG pilots. Since the OSS did not exist at that time, all this was done under the aegis of the intelligence service of the Department of State, supported by the Office of Naval Intelligence which was active on the China coast, and Secretary of War Stimson (who had previously been governor-general of the Philippines and was a friend of Corcoran, Luce, Pawley, United Fruit and Dole Pineapple, and an admirer of Mme. Chiang). Eventually the AVG got its act together and evolved into the Flying Tigers. When the US declared war on Japan, Chennault was reinstated to the Army Air Corps responsible to General Stilwell. All but a handful of the Flying Tigers refused to re-join the Air Corps and mutinied. The mutiny was kept secret until the late 1970s. They were disbanded, many returning to America to get on with their lives, others drifting into Chennault’s airlift over the Hump from India to China, during which gold, drugs and diamonds were carried aboard some of the planes. Among those who were eyewitnesses was John D. McDonald, who later became famous as a novelist. There was a mob of British and American spooks in Chungking and Kunming, where Alsop (given a commission in the US Army) served as Chennault’s mouth-piece to hype the image of the Flying Tigers. The famous name was adopted for all Chennault’s fighter pilots, and was implicit in his choosing the name China Air Transport (CAT) for the OSS subsidized cargo airline Chennault used to smuggle heroin out and wepons in to KMT controlled areas. After the Chiangs fled to Taiwan, CAT became Air America.

Pawley didn’t pay for the JFK assassination. That’s an oversimplification. You could just as well say that H.L.Hunt and the Murchisons paid for it. Or that Pawley’s pals Meyer Lansky and Santo Trafficante (those intimate friends and backroom financiers of Richard Nixon) financed it. Or that it was financed by Edward Lansdale’s friends Nelson Rockefeller and the Rothschilds. Or Paul Helliwell’s off-the-books black banking network. You’ve done a superlative job of laying out many of the people who colluded, so who paid for it is not especially relevant. The real irony is that when Governor Connelly was hit by a ricochet he yelped, “They’re going to kill ALL of us.” (Meaning: “They’re not just going to kill Jack, as we planned.”)

*************************************************************

"Pawley didn’t pay for the JFK assassination. That’s an oversimplification. You could just as well say that H.L.Hunt and the Murchisons paid for it. Or that Pawley’s pals Meyer Lansky and Santo Trafficante (those intimate friends and backroom financiers of Richard Nixon) financed it. Or that it was financed by Edward Lansdale’s friends Nelson Rockefeller and the Rothschilds. Or Paul Helliwell’s off-the-books black banking network. You’ve done a superlative job of laying out many of the people who colluded, so who paid for it is not especially relevant. The real irony is that when Governor Connelly was hit by a ricochet he yelped, “They’re going to kill ALL of us.” (Meaning: “They’re not just going to kill Jack, as we planned.” "

Thank you, Sterling. I don't know how I managed to miss that one. Totally superb.

BTW, the books and CD's are riveting. I'm so glad you showed up here.

Thanks again,

Ter

"I didn't come on and say "John Kennedy was married before he married Jackie." Did I? I wanted to know if someone knew about this. I kept getting the one source re Hersh. Do I still have to walk on eggshells around here? Bill Kelly asked me in so many words to lay off Donald O. Norton, the man who claimed he was Lee Oswald, which would help substantiate the Harvey and Lee theory. I have done a lot of research on Norton, but John Armstrong has done a lot more and will not release what his evidence suggests. I have 3 main areas here: Donald O. Norton, who supposedly lives 2 hours away from me; the unsolved murder of Karyn Kupcinet, who was grabbed from behind and had her carotid artery blocked till she suffocated; And Marilyn Monroe, whose death was highly suspicious."

And that, should have been suffice to say that Hersh was the perpetrator of the rumor.

Hersh wasn't the perpetrator of the rumor; rather, he was the perpetuator. I couldn't find anything else. Furthermore, I didn't smear Kennedy whether he married before or not. Actually, given his sex drive and a good Catholic upbringing, he may have married her and, as someone suggested, Joe paid the Catholic Church to annul it. Where's the smear? The accusation? Why does this matter to you so much? Did someone die because of this? You and I are interested in different things. You're only placing value judgements on me. As for researching, I guess I should get in my car and drive to Donald Norton's town to see his properties, which I've already been castigated for. With the help of Google's Earth, I presented public record photos of his properties. Two people here grew indignant. So how can I research something without angering people? And if he still owns charter boats, maybe I could pay him to take me for an outing and find stuff out about him and look at him carefully. It was "you know who" who told me about Donald Norton. We were going to take a drive there. Now I'm not allowed to speak his hallowed name.

Shouldn't that alone have made it crystal clear? When the same person's name keeps coming back at you?

But where did he get it from? I heard this story long ago.

And, the simple reason that all of these theories of yours smack of sensationalism is merely due to the way you insist on clinging to the explanations afforded you, yet have somehow managed to misinterpret, through your own skewed use of methodology and logistical processing. Though I loathe to bring this up, sources from which you've already overstepped your bounds, and continue to misuse any information they've been generous enough to have shared, and I'm not referring to tabloid journalism here, either.

You know, it takes two to tango. I didn't misuse any of his information. And, believe me, it was always "sensational." I had a friendship with him. It was different than being a moderator. He took more than he gave. Don't fall for his bs.

Kathy

*******************************************************

"I didn't misuse any of his information. And, believe me, it was always "sensational." I had a friendship with him. It was different than being a moderator. He took more than he gave. Don't fall for his bs."

Excuse me, Kathy. But, I wasn't making inferences to any singular individual, here. You've obviously collaborated with other people in your arena of research, haven't you? I'm sorry if I didn't make myself absolutely clear on this because it seems to me that you've mentioned quite a few other sources you've tracked, placed calls to, or sought out for clarification at some point along the way. Is that not true? Therefore, to assume otherwise, or to miscontrue my line of inquiry as some sort of isolated incident involving a mutual acquaintance, is presumptuous on your part, and the furthest thing from which I had originally intended. In fact, I find it out of line to continually refer to this person out of context, as you seem wont to do here on this forum.

Has anyone read Regicide: The Official Assasination of John F. Kennedy by Douglas Gregory? A friend has told me it contains a lot of important new information.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Regicide-Official-...3110&sr=1-8

*****************************************************

First of all, after clicking on the link, I got this before my stunned and confused eyes:

Regicide: The Official Assasination of John F. Kennedy (Hardcover)

by Douglas Gregory (Author)

Is this some European way of spelling the word, "assassination?" French in origin, possibly? Otherwise, let's get the ass back into assass-ination, or have I committed another faux pas?

Prey tell, si vous plais? Or, is that sil vous plais? Oh, hell. Who am I kidding? I'm better in Spanish than I am in frog-speak.

Oh Terry,

That was out loud.

Regicide, in my opinion, embodies that most fascinating and devilish variety of disinformation: It points to some of the truly guilty parties in such outrageously flawed ways as to invite massive negative criticism not only of the arguments, but of the conclusions, too. There goes the baby with the bathwater.

A brilliant defense of flag officers' culpability in the assas(s)ination, n'cest pas? Here's the sought flawed logic: Operation Zipper is patent nonsense, so all talk of Joint Chiefs complicity in the hit is by definition nonsensical.

Au reservoir,

M. Charles

*****************************************************

Merci, beau "coup?" Monsieur Charles.

Has anyone read Regicide: The Official Assasination of John F. Kennedy by Douglas Gregory? A friend has told me it contains a lot of important new information.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Regicide-Official-...3110&sr=1-8

*****************************************************

First of all, after clicking on the link, I got this before my stunned and confused eyes:

Regicide: The Official Assasination of John F. Kennedy (Hardcover)

by Douglas Gregory (Author)

Is this some European way of spelling the word, "assassination?" French in origin, possibly? Otherwise, let's get the ass back into assass-ination, or have I committed another faux pas?

Prey tell, si vous plais? Or, is that sil vous plais? Oh, hell. Who am I kidding? I'm better in Spanish than I am in frog-speak.

Here is more info on President Kennedy's alleged marriage to Durie Malcolm.

"Consider, for example, Hersh's finding that JFK was a bigamist. The rumor began circulating in the extreme right-wing press in 1961 that in 1947, JFK, then a congressman, had secretly married Durie Malcolm, a Palm Beach socialite. Both JFK and Malcolm denied the story, and when it persisted, JFK asked Ben Bradlee, then at Newsweek, to investigate it. Bradlee determined it was a false story emanating from an error in a flawed book of genealogy (which even spelled Malcolm's name incorrectly). Some 35 years later, Hersh resurrected the story, not on the basis of any witness or document to the alleged marriage but on the basis of a piece of conversation that he managed to elicit from a 79-year-old Palm Beach resident, Charles Spalding. Spalding, who, though interviewed many times before over 50 years, never before claimed a role, now told Hersh that he knew about the supposed first marriage because he had himself eliminated the record of it ! at the Palm Beach County Courthouse, saying, according to Hersh! , "I went out there and removed the papers." Presumably, in previous interviews after JFK's death, he had not remembered this extraordinary (and criminal) act.

But how reliable is Spalding's new 1997 memory of this incident that supposedly happened in 1947? Before Hersh interviewed him, Spalding had problems with his ability to recall routine information, which Hersh generously describes as an "impairment of his short-term memory." Such a deficiency notwithstanding, this piece of recovered memory about JFK stands or falls on a simple test. If the 1947 marriage registry in Palm Beach County, which was then handwritten and bound, was marred or missing a page, Spalding's story could be valid. If on the other hand the registry was intact and the entries consecutive, Spalding's memory of removing the papers could not be any more valid than the forged archive of Monroe letters. As it turned out, Hersh and his investigators were unable to find any such gap in the marriage records nor, for that matter, any record of a marriage application, which had to be made three days before the ceremony. Nevertheless, on this piece of recovered memory ! from a person who Hersh knew suffered memory lapses and whose recollection was impeached by an investigation of the records, he asserts in "The Dark Side of Camelot," as established fact, that both JFK and his brother Robert "had lied in their denials to newspapermen and the public about Jack Kennedy's long-rumored first marriage to a Palm Beach socialite," that JFK's marriage to Jackie was not a legal union and that his children were born out of wedlock." -- from Edward Jay Epstein's review of Hersh's book.

www.edwardjayepstein.com/archived/hersh.htm

For the record, Durie Malcolm has always denied any veracity of the rumor.

Kathy

**********************************************************************

"For the record, Durie Malcolm has always denied any veracity of the rumor."

Shouldn't that carry a modicum of weight, considering the circumstances? Or, are you simply suggesting we go along with some purported story, on behalf of the press, that Malcolm might have been paid off by the Kennedys to say just that?

"Consider, for example, Hersh's finding that JFK was a bigamist. The rumor began circulating in the extreme right-wing press in 1961 that in 1947, JFK, then a congressman, had secretly married Durie Malcolm, a Palm Beach socialite. Both JFK and Malcolm denied the story, and when it persisted, JFK asked Ben Bradlee, then at Newsweek, to investigate it. Bradlee determined it was a false story emanating from an error in a flawed book of genealogy (which even spelled Malcolm's name incorrectly). Some 35 years later, Hersh resurrected the story, not on the basis of any witness or document to the alleged marriage but on the basis of a piece of conversation that he managed to elicit from a 79-year-old Palm Beach resident, Charles Spalding. Spalding, who, though interviewed many times before over 50 years, never before claimed a role, now told Hersh that he knew about the supposed first marriage because he had himself eliminated the record of it ! at the Palm Beach County Courthouse, saying, according to Hersh! , "I went out there and removed the papers." Presumably, in previous interviews after JFK's death, he had not remembered this extraordinary (and criminal) act.

But how reliable is Spalding's new 1997 memory of this incident that supposedly happened in 1947? Before Hersh interviewed him, Spalding had problems with his ability to recall routine information, which Hersh generously describes as an "impairment of his short-term memory." Such a deficiency notwithstanding, this piece of recovered memory about JFK stands or falls on a simple test. If the 1947 marriage registry in Palm Beach County, which was then handwritten and bound, was marred or missing a page, Spalding's story could be valid. If on the other hand the registry was intact and the entries consecutive, Spalding's memory of removing the papers could not be any more valid than the forged archive of Monroe letters. As it turned out, Hersh and his investigators were unable to find any such gap in the marriage records nor, for that matter, any record of a marriage application, which had to be made three days before the ceremony. Nevertheless, on this piece of recovered memory ! from a person who Hersh knew suffered memory lapses and whose recollection was impeached by an investigation of the records, he asserts in "The Dark Side of Camelot," as established fact, that both JFK and his brother Robert "had lied in their denials to newspapermen and the public about Jack Kennedy's long-rumored first marriage to a Palm Beach socialite," that JFK's marriage to Jackie was not a legal union and that his children were born out of wedlock." -- from Edward Jay Epstein's review of Hersh's book."

Kathy. All you've managed to do here is to paraphase a re-hash of the same thing you posted above, which is nothing more that a hearsay smear. This is sensationalism at its worst and most incidious, on the part of an Operation Mockingbird "dupe," which is all Hersh apparently does for a living, Nobel Prize winner, not withstanding. You see, when you continue to post these smears it makes you appear as no better than they are. Why? Because all you're seemingly serving to do is parrot their lies, and tending to lend credibility to their insinuations by asking us to prove them wrong, for you.

You should take Bernice's advice about finding some substantiated proof to counter these attacks, instead of repeating the same allegations, which only serves to make you seem like a synchophant of these harpies. Remember the old adage, "Don't be part of the problem. Be part of the solution." In other words, why continually present the problem, without offering a solution? Which is how it appears to some folks, here. And, this is not meant to be taken as any kind of an attack, mind you. Just a suggestion.

Terry and Bernice: I wasn't attacking President Kennedy. I was trying to find a source for the marriage of John rumor. I have never made any accusations against Kennedy. Never, never, never. I have said things about his brother, Bobby, namely that imo he was his brother's worst enemy. I could go into further detail, but I will refrain, although I cared for that man very much. Why would I be on this Forum everyday?

For instance, I have searched, requested on eBay's Want It Now, and have asked if someone on this Forum knows where I may find a specific photo of Robert Kennedy, which I saw in the past. That's the photo of he and his wife and some children, going to church, taken at 9:30 am, in Gilroy, CA. This picture was taken on the morning it was made known, around dawn PT, that Marilyn Monroe died. I have searched the Internet and cannot find that picture, or haven't as yet.

I didn't come on and say "John Kennedy was married before he married Jackie." Did I? I wanted to know if someone knew about this. I kept getting the one source re Hersh. Do I still have to walk on eggshells around here? Bill Kelly asked me in so many words to lay off Donald O. Norton, the man who claimed he was Lee Oswald, which would help substantiate the Harvey and Lee theory. I have done a lot of research on Norton, but John Armstrong has done a lot more and will not release what his evidence suggests. I have 3 main areas here: Donald O. Norton, who supposedly lives 2 hours away from me; the unsolved murder of Karyn Kupcinet, who was grabbed from behind and had her carotid artery blocked till she suffocated; And Marilyn Monroe, whose death was highly suspicious.

I don't know what you people want from me, but I'll be damned if I'm going to let someone bully me out of here. You call my interests "sensationalism." Being as interested in President Kennedy's assassination as we all are is sensational enough. At least that's what people think when they learn of my interest.

You have a science background. I have a literary one. We're coming from different arenas. I don't need you, Terry, or you, Bernice, to tell me what to post or be interested in. This harkens back to an earlier time. I feel like I'm surrounded by sharks. The only way to handle a shark is to belt it in the head.

Kathy

****************************************************************

"I didn't come on and say "John Kennedy was married before he married Jackie." Did I? I wanted to know if someone knew about this. I kept getting the one source re Hersh. Do I still have to walk on eggshells around here? Bill Kelly asked me in so many words to lay off Donald O. Norton, the man who claimed he was Lee Oswald, which would help substantiate the Harvey and Lee theory. I have done a lot of research on Norton, but John Armstrong has done a lot more and will not release what his evidence suggests. I have 3 main areas here: Donald O. Norton, who supposedly lives 2 hours away from me; the unsolved murder of Karyn Kupcinet, who was grabbed from behind and had her carotid artery blocked till she suffocated; And Marilyn Monroe, whose death was highly suspicious."

And that, should have been suffice to say that Hersh was the perpetrator of the rumor. Shouldn't that alone have made it crystal clear? When the same person's name keeps coming back at you?

And, the simple reason that all of these theories of yours smack of sensationalism is merely due to the way you insist on clinging to the explanations afforded you, yet have somehow managed to misinterpret, through your own skewed use of methodology and logistical processing. Though I loathe to bring this up, sources from which you've already overstepped your bounds, and continue to misuse any information they've been generous enough to have shared, and I'm not referring to tabloid journalism here, either.

Now with regard to your Armstrong/Norton theories, let me ask you this. Armstrong did not make any mention of Norton in his book even though he probably has researched Norton more than anyone. Have you ever discussed Norton with John Armstrong via email, telephone, or have you ever met him?? You have made several references to his Norton research. If you didn't get it directly from him, then you must have obtained it from someone with first-hand contact with Armstrong. But -- to you that would amount to unproven, unvetted hearsay information. An individual who passes off such hearsay information to unsuspecting readers as first-hand research is incredibly irresponsible -- sensationalistic, even. But you consistently lack proof and when asked to substantiate your "research" you simply ignore the request or feign indignation at being regarded as a sensationalist rumor monger.

"I don't know what you people want from me, but I'll be damned if I'm going to let someone bully me out of here. You call my interests "sensationalism." Being as interested in President Kennedy's assassination as we all are is sensational enough. At least that's what people think when they learn of my interest."

We don't want anything from you. All we want is substantiated data, not idle speculation bordering on lewd and lascivious gossip. There are times when you've posted interesting material, which you've obviously taken from a documented source or article, and cited it as such. But, for the most part, you have a tendency to harp on certain areas that have been already been beaten to death years ago, and by more experienced and seasoned researchers. You have a consistent need to bring up the most irrelevant aspects of the case, that had you taken the time to use the SEARCH modality on this forum, would have assuredly answered any and all of your queries on the subject.

If you consider researching the assassinations as "sensationalistic" you're definitely in the wrong playing field, and your intentions on insisting that a murder investigation take on the cloak of madness attributed to a common unsolved case such as the "Black Dahlia" or some cheap Sam Spade novel is nothing short of disingenuous. And, I cited those examples in order to indicate the style of which your approach to "research" becomes more apparent, over time.

No one's trying to bully you, Kathy. But, that seems to be the way you tend to misinterpret any kind of constructive form of criticism. It's the standard knee-jerk reaction people who know you have come to expect from you.

Hello John Simkin

It absolutely astonished me, but you stated in your immediately prior post that "...the right of people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. Clearly this reflects a time when people were concerned with the possible tyranny of the federal government. Is that still true today."

I cannot imagine you being in your position on this forum and stating ".....Is that still true today"

What do you think that we are referring to when we speak of an 11/22/63 Coup d' Etat? Or our often reference that the current Bush Administration is bleeding away our rights ? That the CIA is unmanaageable ? That the last election results were contested because of reported and proven improprieties?

Yes John ! We still fear tyranny of any sort.

If a majority of our 1776 revolutionaries, were not armed, we would still be a part of the "British Empire".

It was not only because of the threat of red indians or wild animals that these 1776ers bore arms. It was also against a repeated threat of tyranny.

Actually the meaning of to "keep and BEAR arms", means that citizens may be "accompanied by a gun" whenever they so choose.

I knew John, that you and a few others, would attempt to turn this thread into a gun control debate, as I stated in my post #35.

I would like to state that the great portion of my life was lived within the United States. I have been to all of the "big crime ridden cities" and never once have I or any of my family been physically threatened by ANYONE ! That is why I find it not only amazing, but preposterous that so many UK visitors are singled out and attacked.

Our southern neighbor, Mexico, banned handguns !

Would you like to walk down some dark, suburban Mexican Streets alone ?

The Mexican gun prohibition has prohibited only the citizenry from protecting themselves. There are still Banditos throughout Central America. There are certainly some areas of some American cities that one would not want to enter with a dozen guns. But this is mostly the result of gang and ethnic wars. Since you, I and everyone knows that guns cannot be kept out of the hands of criminals, why should I be stupid enough, or not care enough about the safety of my family, to give up my guns,

while knowing that the criminal element has not and never will ? I was long ago taught, "do not go to a gunfight armed only with a knife". I think that is sound reasoning !

Although there is a much greater chance that one of us is killed in an auto accident, by drowning, or some other means, than there is that we will be killed by a "bad guy", I can take steps to protect myself and my family against the bad guy, so why should I be denied this?

Charlie Black

I still can't figure out what this has to do with who killed JFK. I carry mutliple handguns daily based on 20yrs in Detroit AND my perfect knowledge that evil abounds

*********************************************************

I guess I must have missed this thread. In fact, I guess I must have missed the whole Virginia Tech Massacre. But, you know what? I didn't, nor could I seem to find it in me, to utter any cry of dismay, nor shed a tear for the losses inflicted on the victims' families. Why? Not because I'm someone you could consider to be cold-hearted. No. The reason I couldn't seem to get caught up behind the whole scene was because of living through 55 years of: watching Mafia lieutenants getting their throats cut in broad daylight on the streets of the Bronx in the early 1950's, watching the film clips of The Holocaust and World War II every year on all the requisite holidays that take place celebrating V-E Day, V-J Day, D-Day, etc., not to mention and along with, the ever-present nuclear testing mushroom clouds of Yucca Flats, NV and White Sands, NM, The Clocktower Incident in Austin, TX [1957 or 59, I believe.], the Freedom Riders and the Freedom Marchers getting the xxxx kicked out of themselves on their way to all points in the Deep South while armed gunman and county law officers trained their sites and their German Shepards and Doberman Pinchers on them in '61 and '62, the South East Asian Monks calmly dousing themselves with gasoline and setting themselves ablaze in '62 - '63, Civil Rights workers being fire-hosed and tear-gas bombed, beaten, and blown up, JFK gunned down at high noon in Dallas, LHO gunned down on national TV less than two days later, the VietNam War [brought to you in living color on the 6:00 Evening News right in time for dinner], Mississippi Burning, the Warren Commission LIE in '64, the Chicago Democratic National Convention and the resultant mob brutality that ensued, MLK gunned down in cold blood on the balcony of a Memphis hotel, RFK gunned in the prime of his life in the pantry of the Ambassador Hotel in Los Angeles in '68, body bags, body counts, body bags, and more body counts, Kent State "FOUR DEAD IN O-HIO," Nixon, the fall of Saigon, the return of G.I.'s with little or no re-hab afforded them, dumped back into the ranks of a society they no longer recognized, Watergate, the Pentagon Papers, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush, Ruby Ridge, Clinton, Waco, Kosovo/Slovenia, White Watergate, Monicagate, Bush, 9/11, Afghanistan, Iraq, Iraq, Iraq, Iraq, Columbine, Iraq, Iraq, Iraq, Iraq, Katrina, Iraq, Iraq, Iraq, Iraq, Iraq, Iraq, Iraq. And, you expect me to bat an eyelash at Virginia Tech, located in what is also known as, "The Old Dominion?"

You know, back during the anti-war demonstrations we used to march in, during the late 60's and early 70's, when we'd get heckled by the redneck-peckerwoods yelling, "America. Love it or leave it." Or, "My Country. Right or wrong." I used to yell back, "Hell No! We won't go!" "Hell No! You can go!" Well, the thought just occurred to me to create my own slogan with regard to The Second Amendment. "My guns and the right to bear them. Right or wrong!" Because you can bet your sweet ass that as long as guns can be easily obtained illegally, through the penal system's black market, and behind prison walls, by the criminals serving time there, you'd better believe I will NEVER agree to any gun control laws, especially since the state of California has enough of them on the books already, to choke a horse. It would be just like during "Prohibition," with as many cheap, badly made guns as there was cheap, badly distilled liquor. It'll never fly, here in the states. Now, it may be doable in a small area like the British Isles, or the continent of Europe, which is smaller than the Louisiana Purchase, but not on this continent, and not in your lifetime. Not unless you expect to see a potentially bloodier war take place than The Civil War ever was, that is. We will not go quietly into the night. Not as long as Barrett's is open for business in Murfreesboro, TN.

http://www.us-highways.com/soworld.htm

Standard Oil Around the World

Prior to 1911, Standard Oil's operations outside of the USA were controlled by Standard Oil Company of New York or Vacuum Oil Company.

Standard-Nobel w Polsce (Standard-Nobel Co. in Poland) 1925-1937 marketing, refining, exploration First organized as Nobel Brothers Oil Ind. Co. in Poland (Polonobel) in 1919; merged with Olej Skalny in 1925; Sold to Socony-Vacuum 1937

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*******************************************************

Socony-Vacuum 1937

SOCONY = Standard Oil Company Of New York

Thank you, Purv. Thank you, for following the cobblestone road. BTW, DeMohrenschildt worked for Creole Oil of Venezuela. SOCONY and CREOLE OIL, both Rockefeller interests. Also, Prescott Bush was one of the original founders of The American Liberty League. This recent information was found by a reporter named Buchanan, whose work can be linked at the Dave Emory Spitfire site.

Terry; (just for you)

Since I pushed everything aside to get to the computer, may as well share this with you as well.

The proper means by which to endure oneself with J. Edgar Hoover, was to make certain that one did not forget ANY opportunity to give him a gift. Which of course was fully expected to be an expensive gift.

Thus, those who catered his favor, never missed an opportunity, be it his birthday; christmas; founding of the FBI; anniversary at the FBI; or whatever, to give JEH a special/expensive/& frequently unique gift.

Being the "miser" that he was, JEH was never known to purchase or pay for anything.

Thus, one can only imagine exactly how JEH acquired 100 shares of Creole Petroleum Company Stock, as well as 53 shares of Standard Oil of California and 52 shares of Standard Oil of New Jersey.

To go with the above: (from another posting)

http://www.afn.org/~vetpeace/ideology.htm

The Rockefeller interests controlled the economy of several Latin American countries, including Peru and Venezuela. Creole Petroleum Company, for example, a subsidiary of Rockefellers' then-called Standard Oil of New Jersey, accounted for more than a third of Venezuela's oil, which made up 93% of Venezuela's export earnings. Nelson's own International Basic Economic Corporation in Peru ran a sugar mill,

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Pawley, William Douglas (1896-1977) — also known as William D. Pawley — of Miami Beach, Miami-Dade County, Fla. Born in Florence, Florence County, S.C., September 7, 1896. Republican. U.S. Ambassador to Peru, 1945-46; Brazil, 1946-48; delegate to Republican National Convention from Florida, 1964

************************************************************

"Terry; (just for you)

Since I pushed everything aside to get to the computer, may as well share this with you as well.

The proper means by which to endure oneself with J. Edgar Hoover, was to make certain that one did not forget ANY opportunity to give him a gift. Which of course was fully expected to be an expensive gift.

Thus, those who catered his favor, never missed an opportunity, be it his birthday; christmas; founding of the FBI; anniversary at the FBI; or whatever, to give JEH a special/expensive/& frequently unique gift.

Being the "miser" that he was, JEH was never known to purchase or pay for anything.

Thus, one can only imagine exactly how JEH acquired 100 shares of Creole Petroleum Company Stock, as well as 53 shares of Standard Oil of California and 52 shares of Standard Oil of New Jersey.

To go with the above: (from another posting)

http://www.afn.org/~vetpeace/ideology.htm

The Rockefeller interests controlled the economy of several Latin American countries, including Peru and Venezuela. Creole Petroleum Company, for example, a subsidiary of Rockefellers' then-called Standard Oil of New Jersey, accounted for more than a third of Venezuela's oil, which made up 93% of Venezuela's export earnings. Nelson's own International Basic Economic Corporation in Peru ran a sugar mill,

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Pawley, William Douglas (1896-1977) — also known as William D. Pawley — of Miami Beach, Miami-Dade County, Fla. Born in Florence, Florence County, S.C., September 7, 1896. Republican. U.S. Ambassador to Peru, 1945-46; Brazil, 1946-48; delegate to Republican National Convention from Florida, 1964"

Thanks for updating this thread, Purv. It's an on-going job, but a good one to keep in mind when keeping the record straight. One of my favorite threads, by far.

Terry;

Certainly not ignoring you!

Being in the process of completely re-modelling two back bedrooms into a single bedroom with large walk-in closet space, along with normal yard/flower garden work, I am in quite a mess.

In fact, the computer is even difficult to get to as it is stuffed in with all of the other stuff pushed aside.

I have been searching for the answers to the Hunt family in order to attempt to demonstrate the potential interconnections which they had which were most probably the sources of some of their right wing activities.

As example, old man Hunt lost his first fortune in the Florida Real Estate market.

He had gone to Florida and was investing in Real Estate at exactly the same time as was William D. Pawley living in south Florida and also dealing in real estate.

However, I have never managed to find any direct information which would serve to indicate that the two knew each other at this period in time.

http://www.tsha.utexas.edu/handbook/online...s/HH/fhu59.html

http://www.gold-eagle.com/editorials_04/laborde012704.html

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Another item which should be brought into mind is the fact that the father of old man Hunt (Haroldson LaFayette Hunt) was from Walker County, GA, and was in fact a Confederate Civil War Veteran.

His name was Haroldson Lafayettte Hunt, and although born in Georgia, it appears that he served in an Arkansas unit during the Civil War, and thus must have moved there prior to the beginning of the war.

Thus, it is no suprise that H.L. Hunt moved from the final home in Illinois, initially to Arkansas.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Name: Waddy Thorpe Hunt

Title: (Captain)

Sex: M

Birth: 1825 in SC

Death: 1864 in shot & killed nr Little Rock AR after war

Occupation: farmer in 1850

Note: Was he born in Haversham Co GA in 1821? Census records say he was born in SC.

Note: Civil War veteran. Confederate.

Note: 1850 GA census, Walker Co, Peavine: Waddy T Hunt 25 SC, Mellissa A. 23 SC, Haroldson 8 GA, James 6 GA, Mary 4 GA, John 2 GA. Living next door to Margaret Hunt 58 SC.

Note: 1860 GA census, Walker Co, Upper Cove, Cedar Grove: W. T. Hunt 36 SC, Molissa 36 SC, Harritson 15 GA, James 14 GA, Mary 13 GA, John 11 GA, William 7 GA, Robert 1 GA.

Note: After Civil War he moved his family to a farm near Little Rock AR. After he was killed, the family moved to Illinois.

Change Date: 2 APR 2006

Children

H. L. (Hash) Hunt b: 1842 in Walker Co GA

James M. Hunt b: MAR 1844 in Walker Co GA

Mary Hunt b: 1846 in Walker Co GA

John Hunt b: 1848 in Walker Co GA

William Hunt b: 1855 in Walker Co GA

Robert N. Hunt b: MAR 1859 in Walker Co GA

Thus, the Hunt family generations were all direct line descendants who were "Sons of the Confederacy".

H. L. (Hash/Haroldson Lafayette Hunt, Sr. was a veteran)

His father, Waddy Thorpe Hunt was a Captain in the Confederate Army.

The 27th Regiment of the Arkansas Infantry, list W.T. Hunt as well as H. L. Hunt, which appears to be the father and son.

It is also noted that the primary home of the Hunt family was from South Carolina, also the home state of William Douglas Pawley.

(to be continued)

*********************************************************

"As example, old man Hunt lost his first fortune in the Florida Real Estate market.

He had gone to Florida and was investing in Real Estate at exactly the same time as was William D. Pawley living in south Florida and also dealing in real estate.

It is also noted that the primary home of the Hunt family was from South Carolina, also the home state of William Douglas Pawley."

Thank you, Purv. As these are the issues I've been following in your posts that are of interest to me. Thanks for those links. The ones you send always take me on an adventure.

But, I was mainly concerned about all of us, who are getting up there in years. Yeah, I know. Speak for yourself, Ter. So, when I don't see a name coming up in the usual sequence of events, I begin to worry that maybe someone got ill, or struck down, or God knows what all! And, since my job keeps me from frequenting the forums as much as I used to, I might fall behind in the progression of the threads.

Therefore, I'm extremely happy to hear that you have been in the process of re-modeling your house and garden, which I'm sure is going prove to be more functional and more to your liking, once it's completed. I value your expertise, Purv. Sorry, to have worried unnecessarily, but you're always right back 'atcha with anything I've ever asked for. I just hope I haven't contributed to any disruption of your workflow. I simply must remember that there are those who have a life outside of JFK, much the same as I do.

Ter

Well!

It is always nice to know that at least someone would miss me when all time has truly expired.

And, considering that there are undoubtedly many who would like to place a target on me, who knows!

I will continue under the "Hunt" question.

Tom

While I cannot add anything regarding H.L. Hunt that isn't already common knowledge among researchers, I would say that if there was ever an angle that should be looked at under a microscope it would be the area that is being tossed around.....I would also, as far the the "big picture" goes, mention that there are some interesting real estate transactions that were taking place between Dallas and Miami circa 1963-63 as well. Some noted researchers such as P.D. Scott have mentioned Ameritas and Keyes Realty...... O.L. Nelms name comes up in some old newspaper articles in which Keyes Realty is mentioned.

See Dallas Morning News 4-7-1963

$5.25 Million Deals Disclosed

Henry S. Miller Co. Puts Accent on World Image

For those who have an interest, Jack Ruby was more than casually acquainted with O.L. Nelms...

as the following item shows....

February 11, 1952 "This letter is intended to be, and shall be construed as part of and merged with lease executed between O.L. Nelms, as Lessor, and Jack Ruby, as Lessee, even date hereof, as follows: 1. The Lessee shall have the right, without further consent of Lessor, to make all reasonable and necessary changes and break-throughs on and of the leased premises, at Lessee's expense; and it is agreed that such installation may be moved and removed by Lessee at his will and/or at termination of this lease, if Lessee is not in default thereunder, so long as Lessee makes all reasonable and necessary repairs to save premises from any damage or injury."

See Gallery of History

http://www.galleryofhistory.com/archive/7_...9-JACK-RUBY.htm

I do not mention this information to divert from the thread, but to add peripherally to what is being discussed.

Obviously, nothing sinister is suggested by my posting this.....It is meant to illustrate that there are always interconnections between various cities...Dallas and Miami certainly had more than a couple.....

A good source of financial info on families such as the Hunt Family circa 1960's is The Rich & The Super-Rich by Ferdinand Lundberg.......

*************************************************************

"See Dallas Morning News 4-7-1963

$5.25 Million Deals Disclosed

Henry S. Miller Co. Puts Accent on World Image

For those who have an interest, Jack Ruby was more than casually acquainted with O.L. Nelms...

as the following item shows....

February 11, 1952 "This letter is intended to be, and shall be construed as part of and merged with lease executed between O.L. Nelms, as Lessor, and Jack Ruby, as Lessee, even date hereof, as follows: 1. The Lessee shall have the right, without further consent of Lessor, to make all reasonable and necessary changes and break-throughs on and of the leased premises, at Lessee's expense; and it is agreed that such installation may be moved and removed by Lessee at his will and/or at termination of this lease, if Lessee is not in default thereunder, so long as Lessee makes all reasonable and necessary repairs to save premises from any damage or injury."

See Gallery of History

http://www.galleryofhistory.com/archive/7_...9-JACK-RUBY.htm

I do not mention this information to divert from the thread, but to add peripherally to what is being discussed.

Obviously, nothing sinister is suggested by my posting this.....It is meant to illustrate that there are always interconnections between various cities...Dallas and Miami certainly had more than a couple.....

A good source of financial info on families such as the Hunt Family circa 1960's is The Rich & The Super-Rich by Ferdinand Lundberg......."

Diverting the thread? Are you kidding? This is all quite relevant to the thread!

Thanks, for anything you can find or come up with. That's what it's all about.

Terry;

Certainly not ignoring you!

Being in the process of completely re-modelling two back bedrooms into a single bedroom with large walk-in closet space, along with normal yard/flower garden work, I am in quite a mess.

In fact, the computer is even difficult to get to as it is stuffed in with all of the other stuff pushed aside.

I have been searching for the answers to the Hunt family in order to attempt to demonstrate the potential interconnections which they had which were most probably the sources of some of their right wing activities.

As example, old man Hunt lost his first fortune in the Florida Real Estate market.

He had gone to Florida and was investing in Real Estate at exactly the same time as was William D. Pawley living in south Florida and also dealing in real estate.

However, I have never managed to find any direct information which would serve to indicate that the two knew each other at this period in time.

http://www.tsha.utexas.edu/handbook/online...s/HH/fhu59.html

http://www.gold-eagle.com/editorials_04/laborde012704.html

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Another item which should be brought into mind is the fact that the father of old man Hunt (Haroldson LaFayette Hunt) was from Walker County, GA, and was in fact a Confederate Civil War Veteran.

His name was Haroldson Lafayettte Hunt, and although born in Georgia, it appears that he served in an Arkansas unit during the Civil War, and thus must have moved there prior to the beginning of the war.

Thus, it is no suprise that H.L. Hunt moved from the final home in Illinois, initially to Arkansas.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Name: Waddy Thorpe Hunt

Title: (Captain)

Sex: M

Birth: 1825 in SC

Death: 1864 in shot & killed nr Little Rock AR after war

Occupation: farmer in 1850

Note: Was he born in Haversham Co GA in 1821? Census records say he was born in SC.

Note: Civil War veteran. Confederate.

Note: 1850 GA census, Walker Co, Peavine: Waddy T Hunt 25 SC, Mellissa A. 23 SC, Haroldson 8 GA, James 6 GA, Mary 4 GA, John 2 GA. Living next door to Margaret Hunt 58 SC.

Note: 1860 GA census, Walker Co, Upper Cove, Cedar Grove: W. T. Hunt 36 SC, Molissa 36 SC, Harritson 15 GA, James 14 GA, Mary 13 GA, John 11 GA, William 7 GA, Robert 1 GA.

Note: After Civil War he moved his family to a farm near Little Rock AR. After he was killed, the family moved to Illinois.

Change Date: 2 APR 2006

Children

H. L. (Hash) Hunt b: 1842 in Walker Co GA

James M. Hunt b: MAR 1844 in Walker Co GA

Mary Hunt b: 1846 in Walker Co GA

John Hunt b: 1848 in Walker Co GA

William Hunt b: 1855 in Walker Co GA

Robert N. Hunt b: MAR 1859 in Walker Co GA

Thus, the Hunt family generations were all direct line descendants who were "Sons of the Confederacy".

H. L. (Hash/Haroldson Lafayette Hunt, Sr. was a veteran)

His father, Waddy Thorpe Hunt was a Captain in the Confederate Army.

The 27th Regiment of the Arkansas Infantry, list W.T. Hunt as well as H. L. Hunt, which appears to be the father and son.

It is also noted that the primary home of the Hunt family was from South Carolina, also the home state of William Douglas Pawley.

(to be continued)

*********************************************************

"As example, old man Hunt lost his first fortune in the Florida Real Estate market.

He had gone to Florida and was investing in Real Estate at exactly the same time as was William D. Pawley living in south Florida and also dealing in real estate.

It is also noted that the primary home of the Hunt family was from South Carolina, also the home state of William Douglas Pawley."

Thank you, Purv. As these are the issues I've been following in your posts that are of interest to me. Thanks for those links. The ones you send always take me on an adventure.

But, I was mainly concerned about all of us, who are getting up there in years. Yeah, I know. Speak for yourself, Ter. So, when I don't see a name coming up in the usual sequence of events, I begin to worry that maybe someone got ill, or struck down, or God knows what all! And, since my job keeps me from frequenting the forums as much as I used to, I might fall behind in the progression of the threads.

Therefore, I'm extremely happy to hear that you have been in the process of re-modeling your house and garden, which I'm sure is going prove to be more functional and more to your liking, once it's completed. I value your expertise, Purv. Sorry, to have worried unnecessarily, but you're always right back 'atcha with anything I've ever asked for. I just hope I haven't contributed to any disruption of your workflow. I simply must remember that there are those who have a life outside of JFK, much the same as I do.

Ter

Well!

It is always nice to know that at least someone would miss me when all time has truly expired.

And, considering that there are undoubtedly many who would like to place a target on me, who knows!

I will continue under the "Hunt" question.

Tom

************************************************************

"It is always nice to know that at least someone would miss me when all time has truly expired.

And, considering that there are undoubtedly many who would like to place a target on me, who knows!"

Don't sweat the nickle/dime stuff, Purv. When the xxxx hits the fan, I'd be more than happy to take the bullet for you, seeing as I'm the more expendable one of the two.