Terry Mauro

***************************************************** "I wish I had the time available to me to launch into its use for the JFK assassination, because I would. But I simply don't have the time available to me, and won't for the foreseeable future." Ashton, Thank you for turning us on to this useful new tool. I realize your time is at a premium, but if we could have had your focused expertise on the Assassination, to just an iota of the degree you've had on the Watergate affair, it would have been a force to be reckoned with, I can assure you. Best regards, Ter

I have taught in schools since 1977 and I profoundly disagree with your analysis of the situation. Motivation is a problem but this is not directly the reason why kids from disadvantaged backgrounds fail to do well at While I agree that strong family values and support are instrumental, the bottom line is either the kid decides to do the work or they don't. Neither the family nor the government can change that little fact. Nothing creates motivation like failure, and when used properly failure it the BEST method of learning anything. Removing the downide of failure is a mistake. What a terrible way to create adults that will have to compete in the real world that to take away the downside of failure. Why would helping bad students improve go down badly for the advantaged. The opposite is true. More educated children become more productive adults, which lowers the burdens on the taxpayer and society in the long run. I my view the ones with little interest in the progress of disadvantaged students are the liberals. After all one of their biggest voting blocks are the disadvantaged and the poor...you know the people to whom these liberals always promise the keys to the national treasury...Boosting them up actually HURTS the liberals. **************************************************** "Nothing creates motivation like failure, and when used properly failure it the BEST method of learning anything. Removing the downide of failure is a mistake. What a terrible way to create adults that will have to compete in the real world that to take away the downside of failure. Why would helping bad students improve go down badly for the advantaged. The opposite is true. More educated children become more productive adults, which lowers the burdens on the taxpayer and society in the long run. I my view the ones with little interest in the progress of disadvantaged students are the liberals. After all one of their biggest voting blocks are the disadvantaged and the poor...you know the people to whom these liberals always promise the keys to the national treasury...Boosting them up actually HURTS the liberals." SIEG HEIL, Herr Goebbels! I suggest we pack them off on cattle cars and ship them to the ovens and the glue factories. They'd better much better utilized as candles and lampshades, don't you think? Too stupid to become anything else, eh? Lamson, you're a dickhead.

Sorry, Terry ... I didn't take it that way. Bill Well, John ... Von Pein can say he has never had his photo taken, but I don't believe him. In a day when a digital photo can be taken within seconds and posted .... well, you get what I'm saying. Bill *********************************************** "Sorry, Terry ... I didn't take it that way. Bill" O.K. then. Can I be excused from Detention Hall now? I've already written, "I SHALL NOT TYPE C.I.A., AGAIN." on the blackboard 100 times? Thank you.

Thanks, kiddo. All my pleasure. Now help me get it circulated, will you? Send copies to every media person you can find. Put them on notice, too. I am. I'll be posting a list of where I've sent it soon, but it's impossible to send it out too many times to too many places. It can't be overdone. While it may be true that much of our media is controlled, all of it isn't. There are people starving for the truth. We've got to start demanding that we get it, and that nothing short of it will answer. Ashton ***************************************************** And here's how it went out: To Whom It May Concern: I am a member of The Education Forum based out of the UK. http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...amp;#entry69809 Here is something I believe may be of interest to you. It was drawn up by one of our fellow researchers whose special field of study has been the subject of the Watergate affair. I believe it explains the insidiousness with which our government and our democratic process has been manipulated, compromised, and used by the corporate oligarchy, their lobbyists, legal advisors, paid-for-hire mercenaries, and general opportunistic "bottom-feeders" employed and salaried with American taxpayers' hard earned money, conduited for their own personal and ambitious means to an end. It points the way to how our judicial system was allowed to become corrupted and remain so, paving the way for the conservative party, and the Reagan administration's, "Voodoo Economics" [aka Supply-Side-Trickle-Down] policy to exert the strangle-hold it now has on this country's manufacturing and industrial base, or present lack thereof. How such governmental oversight, during the Watergate hearings in the the early 1970's, led to the future enabling of the Iran-Contra debacle, the Savings and Loan fiasco, replete with the requisite pardons, and for the conservative revolution [to coin their euphemistic semantic double-talk] to literally capture our House of Representatives, and unfairly weight it in their own favor. All the while, leading the American citizenry into a false sense of security, believing that the anti-tax podium, from which they purportedly promised the voters, as if they were some kind of 1776 American Revolutionary, ["No taxation without representation!"] patriots, what with their sloganeering and posturing. A mere ruse used to convince the constituency of all the advantages the middle class would now be able to benefit. When in reality, the only people who were ever going to benefit from this windfall of good fortune were the upper 15 percentile whose six digit salaries were large enough to be able to lay claim to the loopholes being offered them. And, please don't get me started on NAFTA, AFTA, and the other anagrams so conveniently being fashioned to disguise nothing more than a Laissez Faire [aka "free trade"] policy. An egregious economic philosophy benefitting no one but the globalist corpocracies, serving nothing more than to undermine the economic base of the United States or, as I noted before, what's left of it. Sometimes it seems as if there's no longer a distinction left to made between the democrats and the republicans, the liberals and the conservatives. It's beginning to resemble another political animal altogether. That of, one party, two branches. Maybe you could find an appropriate place or section on your website where this may be appreciated, if possible. I hope it doesn't appear too radical in its approach, but I abhor that other euphemistic mindset so eagerly tossed around today. What I'm referring to is, that which is considered to be of the "politically correct" persuasion. For instance, when one attempts to present a subject perceived as possibly too uncomfortable to broach. Are we no longer allowed to express ourselves as, "mad as hell, and not going to take it anymore?" Sincerely yours, Theresa C. Mauro Culver City, CA The letter below has been e-mailed and mailed, and, as specified in the letter, is now being posted in a public place. The articles cited in the letter with web URL's linking to this forum have been converted, in this post, to be active links within the forum. I ardently urge others to send similar letters demanding action that is fully warranted by the cited evidence, and to post them, so that a public message is sent that will rise into a roar that will rattle their panes and timbers. Ashton Gray _______________________________________ President George Bush The White House 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue NW Washington, DC 20500 comments@whitehouse.gov Vice President Richard Cheney The White House 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue NW Washington, DC 20500 vice_president@whitehouse.gov U.S. House of Representatives Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence intelligence.hpsci@mail.house.gov United States Senate Select Committee on Intelligence Chairman Pat Roberts senator_roberts@exchange.senate.gov (Dead address; must send through asinine web form) Attorney General U.S. Department of Justice 950 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW Washington, DC 20530-0001 AskDOJ@usdoj.gov Dear Sir, In compliance with 18 USC §2382 MISPRISION OF TREASON, this is ACTUAL NOTICE of substantial evidence of willful and knowing overt and covert acts in violation of 18 USC §2381 TREASON et seq., including but not limited to 18 USC §2384 SEDITIOUS CONSPIRACY, committed against the Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces of the United States and the People of the United States during time of war, beginning no later than March 1969 with the transfer of materials protected for purposes of national security under the laws of the United States (commonly known as the "Pentagon Papers") into the hands of a person or persons conspiring to release those materials domestically without authorization as an act of war against the Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces of the United States and against the United States during time of war; And FURTHERMORE, This is ACTUAL NOTICE of substantial evidence of a continuing SEDITIOUS CONSPIRACY by persons currently employed by CIA and other intelligence agencies and oversight bodies within the government of the United States to protect the guilty and prevent public knowledge of the full scope and true purpose of the willful acts of TREASON attendant to, and further acts of TREASON pursuant to, such release; And FURTHERMORE, This is ACTUAL NOTICE of substantial evidence of complicity and conspiracy by persons who were contemporaneously employed by CIA to use these seditious acts of TREASON and the treasonous release of the Pentagon Papers to commit further TREASONOUS ACTS by concocting fraudulent "crimes" and framing the Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces during time of war for having instigated or approved these fictitious "crimes," and, in so doing, to perpetrate a fraud upon the courts and Congress in order to effect further TREASON; And FURTHERMORE, This is ACTUAL NOTICE of substantial evidence of complicity and conspiracy by persons not directly and contemporaneously employed by CIA, but nonetheless working to further the ends and aims of the TREASON, in carrying out overt and covert acts of SEDITIOUS CONSPIRACY and TREASON against the Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces in or about, but not limited to, 1970 through 1973, and knowingly perjuring themselves in courts and in Congress for the felonious purpose of overthrowing the Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces of the United States during time of war; And FURTHERMORE, This is ACTUAL NOTICE of substantial evidence of persons furthering the purposes and scope of the TREASON by knowingly and willfully working in the interests of CIA and related agencies and organizations to plan and execute petty crimes for the purpose of providing a fraudulent "legal foundation" for exonerating the main perpetrators of the TREASON related to the Pentagon Papers from criminal prosecution for their treasonous acts; And FURTHERMORE, This is ACTUAL NOTICE of substantial evidence that persons in the employ or under the direction of CIA did stage a completely false and fictitious "first break-in" at the Watergate complex in Washington, D.C. on or about Memorial Day weekend 1972 in order to provide alibis for some number of the actors, during which time they possibly, from evidence, conducted a clandestine mission for CIA that may have involved felonious kidnapping and/or assassination on foreign soil, effected through the illegal and unauthorized appropriation and use of assets and property of the Office of the President of the United States, while acting under color of authority of the White House in furtherance of their TREASONOUS aims; And, FURTHERMORE, This is ACTUAL NOTICE of substantial evidence of MISPRISION OF TREASON and a CONTINUING CONSPIRACY TO EFFECT MISPRISION OF TREASON committed by any and all persons who, at any relevant time, were cognizant by any means of this TREASON and SEDITIOUS CONSPIRACY TO COMMIT TREASON and who, with standing, did not timely report it, investigate it, or prosecute it per the following relevant statutes from United States Code Title 18: ________________ § 2381. Treason Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States. § 2383. Rebellion or insurrection Whoever incites, sets on foot, assists, or engages in any rebellion or insurrection against the authority of the United States or the laws thereof, or gives aid or comfort thereto, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States. § 2382. Misprision of treason Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States and having knowledge of the commission of any treason against them, conceals and does not, as soon as may be, disclose and make known the same to the President or to some judge of the United States, or to the governor or to some judge or justice of a particular State, is guilty of misprision of treason and shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than seven years, or both. § 2384. Seditious conspiracy If two or more persons in any State or Territory, or in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspire to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, or to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof, they shall each be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both. § 2388. Activities affecting armed forces during war ( a ) Whoever, when the United States is at war, willfully makes or conveys false reports or false statements with intent to interfere with the operation or success of the military or naval forces of the United States or to promote the success of its enemies; or Whoever, when the United States is at war, willfully causes or attempts to cause insubordination, disloyalty, mutiny, or refusal of duty, in the military or naval forces of the United States, or willfully obstructs the recruiting or enlistment service of the United States, to the injury of the service or the United States, or attempts to do so— Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both. ( b ) If two or more persons conspire to violate subsection (a) of this section and one or more such persons do any act to effect the object of the conspiracy, each of the parties to such conspiracy shall be punished as provided in said subsection (a). ( c ) Whoever harbors or conceals any person who he knows, or has reasonable grounds to believe or suspect, has committed, or is about to commit, an offense under this section, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both. ( d ) This section shall apply within the admiralty and maritime jurisdiction of the United States, and on the high seas, as well as within the United States. ________________ At all relevant times you have had CONSTRUCTIVE NOTICE and IMPLIED NOTICE of all the foregoing and have not acted to investigate and prosecute the perpetrators and co-conspirators. You now have ACTUAL NOTICE of all the foregoing and of MISPRISION OF TREASON. Furthermore, summaries of portions of the copious amounts of available evidence of the foregoing have been posted in public places, and this is ACTUAL NOTICE of their appearance in those public places to which you are known to have easy and unencumbered access, including but not limited to: 1. The "Pentagon Papers" leak was a CIA op 2. There was no "first break-in" at the Watergate 3. G. Gordon Liddy and the Phantom Polaroids 4. Liddy, McCord, and the Phantom Watergate "Bugs" 5. Liddy, Baldwin, and the Phantom Phone Logs 6. 26 May 1972: The "Ameritas Dinner" and Alfred Baldwin 7. 27 May 1972: The "second failed attempt" and Alfred Baldwin 8. The Diem cables--Did they exist or not? 9. Helms Directed CIA to Supply Hunt 10. White House "Request" for CIA Help Was a Helms Con 11. The CIA Watergate Bait-and-Switch—17–18 June 1972 12. The CIA Watergate Bait-and-Switch—19 June 1972 13. Who Was Douglas Caddy Representing, and When? Persons whose names appear in the cited summaries and are believed to be living, and who may or may not have specific personal knowledge of any such activities, but who are known to have been connected in some way with persons contemporaneously employed by CIA, include, but are not necessarily limited to: Daniel Ellsberg Everett Howard Hunt a.k.a. E. Howard Hunt, Howard Hunt, Edward L. Warren, Edward J. Hamilton, Eduardo George Gordon Battle Liddy a.k.a. G. Gordon Liddy, Gordon Liddy, George F. Leonard Alfred C. Baldwin III John Wesley Dean III Charles Colson Michael Douglas Caddy Bernard Leon Barker a.k.a. Frank Carter, Fran Carter, Macho Eugenio Rolando Martinez y Creaga a.k.a. Gene Valdes, G. Valdes, Jene Valdes, J. Valdes, E. Rolando Martinez Virgilio Gonzales a.k.a. Raoul Godoy, Raul Godoy, Raoul Godoy Goboy, Raul Godoy Goboy Robert "Bob" Woodward Robert Foster "Bob" Bennett My knowledge of the foregoing is through innocent and legal address to evidence in the public record and not through any complicity or illegal means. It is my best information and belief that some or all of the evidence cited above has been condensed into more formal Executive Summaries by persons whose knowledge of the foregoing also was attained through innocent, legal, and noncomplicit means, and has been presented by those persons as ACTUAL NOTICE to civic, government, and law enforcement officials and representatives at a variety of levels and may have reached you. Regardless of your possession or cognizance of any such presentation, with this ACTUAL NOTICE you have all evidence needed to warrant an immediate investigation, and you are bound by Constitutional and statutory obligation and oath to a fiduciary responsibility to pursue timely, with vigor, and with all due diligence, these grave matters. To do otherwise is to make yourself a party to all or part of the foregoing. Given that the evidence cited above has lain in the public record for decades in one form or another, and given your IMPLIED NOTICE and CONSTRUCTIVE NOTICE at all relevant times, the very fact of this ACTUAL NOTICE having to be sent already is prima facie evidence of dereliction of duty, if not complicity. I therefore demand that you aggressively fulfill your obligation, oath, and duty in this matter; that you make your intentions public at once; and that you keep the People of the United States fully briefed and informed on every step of the investigation and on all findings. This ACTUAL NOTICE is being e-mailed, mailed, and posted in a public forum. With all warranted respect, Ashton Gray This post has been edited by Ashton Gray: Jul 19 2006, 02:59 AM

Thanks, kiddo. All my pleasure. Now help me get it circulated, will you? Send copies to every media person you can find. Put them on notice, too. I am. I'll be posting a list of where I've sent it soon, but it's impossible to send it out too many times to too many places. It can't be overdone. While it may be true that much of our media is controlled, all of it isn't. There are people starving for the truth. We've got to start demanding that we get it, and that nothing short of it will answer. Ashton **************************************************** "Now help me get it circulated, will you? Send copies to every media person you can find. Put them on notice, too. I am. I'll be posting a list of where I've sent it soon, but it's impossible to send it out too many times to too many places. It can't be overdone." You got it, Bunky! "Copied and Pasted" and off to Senators Feinstein and Boxer, Truthout.org, PFAW.org, DemocracyNow.org, DemocracyforAmerica.com, COPA, Prouty.org, and "all points in between" [to quote a line from ZZ top]. Thanks, kiddo. All my pleasure. Now help me get it circulated, will you? Send copies to every media person you can find. Put them on notice, too. I am. I'll be posting a list of where I've sent it soon, but it's impossible to send it out too many times to too many places. It can't be overdone. While it may be true that much of our media is controlled, all of it isn't. There are people starving for the truth. We've got to start demanding that we get it, and that nothing short of it will answer. Ashton ______________________________________ Ash, You may be interested in a site that addresses some of the issues connected to world corporate takeover, huge international media, etc.; it's http://www.newswithviews.com JG *************************************************** "Good show to you, too (you're the winner of the Diane Keaton look-alike contest, also. This is not a bad thing.)" Thanks for the kudos, JG. But, Keaton's a helluvalot more prettier than I could ever aspire to be.

Terry, with all due respect ... Craig could post a photo of his cousin and you or no one else would know the difference. These CIA references are really stupid for if you ever read Prouty's work, then you's know that the CIA can work counter intellegence just as easily. In other words, you could be a CIA agent who posted a better photo so not to draw attention to yourself and by making a lot out of nothing ... one could say you were trying to keep attention away from yourself by trying to keep it on someone else. I mean, where does all this idiocy stop??? For instance, I posted a photo of myself and Jack tried to make a big production out of it being someone else besides me. It seems that the evidence pertaining to JFK's murder would be more important than sitting around like a bunch of snot nosed school kids trying to get the other one in trouble. I'm starting to think that some people here are not going to be happy until John Simkin gets tired of all this crap and just pulls the plug on the forum. I hope you and others consider some of these things before actually carrying this nonsense any further. Bill Miller *************************************************** "Terry, with all due respect ... Craig could post a photo of his cousin and you or no one else would know the difference. These CIA references are really stupid for if you ever read Prouty's work, then you's know that the CIA can work counter intellegence just as easily." Oh come on, Bill! For crying out loud! Haven't you deduced the irony and sarcasm from which I pen certain of my posts, by now? Especially, to those threads that have become tedious, in and of themselves? Jeez Louise! Lighten up before you give me, as well as yourself, a stroke! You, of all people should know me by now. When it's time to be serious, I'll strike with a sledgehammer. Take it, or leave it. Hell, I feel like I'm being sent to detention hall, for chrissakes!

See my posting on this issue here: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=7491 The only reason this rule has not been enforced is that I am so busy with other matters. However, David R. Von Pein has refused point-blank to do so and has been suspended until he does upload a photograph. I do not share your views about these individuals being part of a disinformation/cover-up group. Even the CIA are not this daft. People like David R. Von Pein do more harm than good to their cause. I do think it is possible that we do have some members who are involved in disinformation. However, they do it so well that it is almost impossible to identify them. For example, few were aware at the time that Dick Billings was a disinformation agent. For example, I believe that Craig Lamson is really a left-winger attempting to discredit the far-right with his posts on political issues. John...I think you should require that Lamson, the great photographer, post an IDENTIFIABLE photograph of himself. His "avatar" is as bad as the VonPein avatar. Jack ************************************************* Lamson's avatar looks like the kind of blackout photo they have when interviewing someone on TV, or in a documentary, who doesn't want his identity to be exposed, i.e. someone in the Witness Protection program, or a prisoner, or darest I even mention it, a "CIA" operative who doesn't want his cover blown. Whatever. On the other hand, as far as Von Pain goes, maybe we can locate him via a google search? Could this be the "real" David Von Pein? The Meter Man - David von Pein Farming meters for crops from the 'Meter Man' - David von Pein. www.themeterman.com.au/ - 9k - Cached - Similar pageswww.themeterman.com.au/ Or, how about this one? Amazon.com: Profile for David R. Von Pein Need help? More information on Profile pages. David R. Von Pein's Profile. (TOP 500 REVIEWER) · (REAL NAME). Location:: Mooresville, Indiana; USA ... www.amazon.com/gp/pdp/profile/A1FDW1SPYKB354 - 82k - Cached - Similar pages [ More results from www.amazon.com ] Or, possibly this one? Amazon.com: JFK (1991) : Video The video covers the arrests of Clay Shaw, David Ferrie, and Lee Oswald, ... DVDs AND VIDEOS RELATING TO JOHN F. KENNEDY: A list by David R. Von Pein, ... us.imdb.com/ra/us/eo/ASIN/B00004RSW7 - 56k - Cached - Similar pages Hmmm...the possiblities seem to be endless. Geomantica - videos Retired organic farmer David von Pein then tells us how we can monitor the value of soil inputs using various probes and meters. He demonstrates the use of ... www.geomantica.com/video.htm - 34k - Cached - Similar pages ruralbookshop ... ideas and approaches to farming biologically. Julie Ferguson, Neil Nass, David von Pein and Chris Wicks add an Australian element to thie HOWTO on IPM. ... www.ruralbookshop.com.au/film_detail.asp?product_id=2003&producttype_id=3 - 17k - Cached - Similar pages Britannia ... fans a great overview of two of the most popular types of aircraft in the world today, the 757 and the 767. David Von Pein ; Indianapolis IN, USA ... www.worldairroutes.com/Britannia.html - 24k - Cached - Similar pages Air Tahiti Nui ... camerawork of scenery out the flight-deck and cabin windows. Another worthy entry in the World Air Routes series. David Von Pein ; Indianapolis IN, USA ... www.worldairroutes.com/AirTahitiNui.html - 31k - Cached - Similar pages [ More results from www.worldairroutes.com ] [Compostteas] Re: Saponin and varibility David Von Pein pointed this out to me at the Coff's Harbour seminar last March. And he's right - that layer of material is detrimental to life. ... lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/compostteas/Week-of-Mon-20020527/000051.html - 12k - Cached - Similar pages Would the "real" Von Pain please stand up?

So now we know. The release of the Pentagon Papers (a Robert McNamara-initiated study of the history of US involvement in Vietnam prior to the Nixon Administration) was an act of treason against the Commander in Chief in time of war. And the CIA's conspiracy to bring down the presidency of Richard Nixon was an act of treason against the Commander in Chief in time of war. Douglas Caddy and Alfred Baldwin should be shot for treason. President Nixon was an irrelevant bystander to what the CIA purposed to do. And now we have "David Von Pein" to join his li'l buddy Brendan (and God knows who else---Cindy, Paul L.?) to get everyone to spend more time with all this crap.............................. ************************************************ "Douglas Caddy and Alfred Baldwin should be shot for treason." Nah, just G. Gordon Liddy, and E. Howard Hunt, if it were up to me. "And now we have "David Von Pein" to join his li'l buddy Brendan..." Von Pain will probably get xxxx-canned as soon as Simkin gets wind of his tripe. I only hope he doesn't get to stick around here as long as he did at Lancer. And the whiz kid...? If Simkin is going to allow that nimrod to continue, then he should reinstate Tim Gratz' posting privileges. At least Gratz was articulate and intelligent. I miss my old fascist-you-just-loved-to-hate. He was the only one of his kind that I respected, and he had a great sense of humor, too. Well, I don't know about you, DWD, but I've got to get over to the office. How're the Qumran papers coming along? Good show, Ash.

No, I'd rather save them instead. BTW, what's your plan for Middle East peace and the war on terror? Can you do anything other than bitch? Yamulka wearers? We're at war with Israel? Actually, I want the "ragheads" to enjoy the same benefits of liberty, pluralism, and democracy as the Tel Aviv crowd. In case you haven't noticed, there's a dire shortage of such things in the Middle East. Not coincidentally, that's where the bulk of terrorists spring from. Then again, if you were a true champion of the downtrodden and oppressed and not some clueless Cindy Sheehan clone, you would've recognized that by now. Curiously, delivering people from dictatorship and tyranny somehow equates to "fascism" in your little playworld. Churchill and Roosevelt liberating France and a continent from the grip of Hitler? Fascists! Go lie down, Terry. You're clearly tired. ******************************************************** "One-trick-pony Terry scrawled:" Dinny Dimwit Slattery, consecutive non-stop and undisputed winner of THE CLYDE AWARD regurgitated: "Actually, I want the "ragheads" to enjoy the same benefits of liberty, pluralism, and democracy as the Tel Aviv crowd. In case you haven't noticed, there's a dire shortage of such things in the Middle East. Not coincidentally, that's where the bulk of terrorists spring from." Since when has the Islamic nation expressed any desire to benefit from the same things as Tel Aviv, or don't already have their own interpretations of what liberty, pluralism, or democracy mean to them? What are you some kind of missed-his-calling missionary on an evangelical quest to Christian-ize/Juda-ize the Middle East? Remember, they already tried that with the Crusades debacle. And, also wasn't it the British and their petroleum company, along with our own oil baron driven economists who restructured Palestine to create a state for Israel, that never really existed except according to the Old Testament? "Curiously, delivering people from dictatorship and tyranny somehow equates to "fascism" in your little playworld. Churchill and Roosevelt liberating France and a continent from the grip of Hitler? Fascists!" That was World War II when the lines of demarcation and the colors were "supposedly" drawn in black and white, and not with the "politically correct" gray scale of today's corporate-obligarchal, totalitarian mindset. Face the obvious facts of your conservative-ridden House of Representatives with their token liberal lapdogs begging for the scraps to be thrown their way, and what do you have? One of the most corrupt, baseless, and greed-driven excuses for an administration to come down the pike, since the Harding administration. Only this time the players are far more insidious and deceitful in their M.O., witness the Donald Regan, George Schultz, George Meese, Casper Weingarten, Ronnie Reagan Puppeteer and Marionette Show. Then again, you had old Prescott with his German bank, and I.G. Farben business associates, much the same as G.H.W. has with his Carlysle [bin Laden] Group of business holdings. Just one big happy family. Oh, and lest we not forget, with mouthpieces the likes of the Dulles brothers, you could literally get away with murder. BTW, why are you wasting your time in D.C. when you seem much better suited for Wall Street? Oh, and I almost left out the old Brown and Root crowd, aka the modern day Halliburton all-purpose ground patrol of mercenary construction and instant home-away-from-home police detail. They're sure raking in the bucks from all the havoc being wreaked in the Middle East. Since when does the U.S. claim the right to eminent domain another country's resources [oil] in the name of that country's democracy. Haven't you ever heard of something called the Geneva Accords? Oh, I forgot. It's probably been declared unconstitutional, by now. George W Bush and the 14 points of fascism - Project for the OLD ... 14 points of fascism under george bush in the united states wake up and smell ... Further analysis of American Fascism done by the POAC can be read here. ... www.oldamericancentury.org/14pts.htm FASCISM 14 Points of fascism In his original article, "Fascism Anyone?", Laurence Britt (interview) compared the regimes of Hitler, Mussolini, Franco, Suharto, and Pinochet and identified 14 characteristics common to those fascist regimes. This page is a collection of news articles dating from the start of the Bush presidency divided into topics relating to each of the 14 points of fascism. Further analysis of American Fascism done by the POAC can be read here: 1.) Powerful and Continuing Nationalism: Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays. September 11 Freedom Walk New Majority Leader: Iraq War “May Be The Greatest Gift That We Give” Our Grandchildren Headstones of soldiers killed in Iraq and Afghanistan are inscribed with the Pentagons war-marketing slogans White House and the RNC are going to make a habit of using uniformed military personnel as props at Republican political rallies, despite the fact that it is a plain violation of military regulations banning politicization of the armed forces. "You must glorify war in order to get the public to accept the fact that your going to send their sons and daughters to die." The inside story of the cozy relationship between big box office American war movies and the Pentagon More... 2.) Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights: Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc. Bush threatens to veto $442b defense bill if Congress investigates detainee abuses. Guantanamo Judge: “I don’t care about international law. I don’t want to hear the words ‘international law’ again. We are not concerned with international law.” Rumsfeld to approve new guidelines that will formalize the administration's policy of imprisoning without the protections of the Geneva Conventions and enable the Pentagon to legally hold "ghost detainees," US 'preparing to detain terror suspects for life without trial' U.S. oks evidence gained through torture July 1, 2003: U.S. Suspends Military Aid to Nearly 50 Countries: because they have supported the International Criminal Court and failed to exempt Americans from possible prosecution. US has at least 9000 prisoners in secret detention More... 3.) Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause: The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial, ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc. Congressman: Muslims 'enemy amongst us' SB 24, Ohio law to muzzle "liberals" World history textbook used by seventh-graders at Scottsdale’s Mohave Middle School was pulled from classrooms mid-semester amid growing right criticism of the book’s unbiased portrayal of Islam Rallies planned against 'Islamofacism': Event to 'unify all Americans behind common goal' More... 4.) Supremacy of the Military: Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized. If you haven't seen the Oreo flash animation yet, see it here Bush’s Domestic Program Hit List Bush slashes domestic programs, boosts defense. Arlen Spector calls it "scandalous" Funding for job training, rural health care, low-income schools and help for people lacking health insurance would face big cuts under a bill passed Friday by the House Pentagon to spend 75 billion for three new brigades Three cable channels now feed news, information and entertainment about the armed services into millions of living rooms 24 hours a day, seven days a week: The Military Channel, the Military History Channel and the Pentagon Channel. More... 5.) Rampant Sexism: The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Opposition to abortion is high, as is homophobia and anti-gay legislation and national policy. It's legal again, to fire gov't workers for being gay Bush calls for Constitutional ban on same-sex marriages Bush refuses to sign U.N proposal on women's "sexual" rights W. David Hager chairman of the FDA's Reproductive Health Drugs Advisory Committee does not prescribe contraceptives for single women, does not do abortions, will not prescribe RU-486 and will not insert IUDs. The State Department has awarded an explicitly anti-feminist U.S. group part of a US$10 million grant to train Iraqi women in political participation and democracy. More... 6.) Controlled Mass Media: Sometimes the media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common. FBI Acknowledges: Journalists Phone Records are Fair Game Report shows U.S. government has been engaged in illegal propaganda aimed at its own citizens and the story gets only 41 mentions in the media Free Press details recent governmental propaganda efforts, from faux-correspondent Jeff Gannon to paid-off pundit Armstrong Williams, and from the demise of FOIA to video news releases passed off as news. also... See a Whitehouse fake news release here (opens realplayer) US seizes webservers from independent media sites Bush's war on information: US editors forbidden to publish certain foreign writers More... 7.) Obsession with National Security: Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses Bush Aides ADMIT 'stoking fear' for political gain: Bush adviser said the president hopes to change the dynamics of the race. The strategy is aimed at stoking public fears about terrorism, raising new concerns about Kerry's ability to protect Americans and reinforcing Bush's image as the steady anti-terrorism candidate, aides said. The Bush administration periodically put the USA on high alert for terrorist attacks even though then-Homeland Security chief Tom Ridge argued there was only flimsy evidence to justify raising the threat level. Keith Olbermann: "The Nexus of Politics and Terror." Cheney warns that if Kerry is elected, the USA will suffer a "devastating attack" GOP convention in a nutshell (quicktime) Rove: GOP to Use Terror As Campaign Issue in 2006 More... 8.) Religion and Government are Intertwined: Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions. Jerry Falwell cleared of charges that he broke federal election law by urging followers to vote for Bush NC congressman proposes law making it ok to preach politics from the pulpit Texas Governor Mobilizes Evangelicals Family research council: Justice Sunday Thou shalt be like Bush: What makes this recently established, right-wing Christian college unique are the increasingly close - critics say alarmingly close - links it has with the Bush administration and the Republican establishment. Park Service Continues to Push Creationist Theory at Grand Canyon and other nat'l parks More... 9.) Corporate Power is Protected: The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite. The K Street Project is a project by the Republican party to pressure Washington lobbying firms to hire Republicans in top positions, and to reward loyal GOP lobbyists with access to influential officials. It was launched in 1995, by Republican strategist Grover Norquist and House majority leader Tom DeLay. American Conservative Magazine: One U.S. contractor received $2 million in a duffel bag... and a U.S. official was given $7 million in cash in the waning days of the CPA and told to spend it “before the Iraqis take over.” There are 6 Congressional Committees investigating the Oil-for-Food (UN) scandal, yet not a single Republican Committee Chairman will call a hearing to investigate the whereabouts of 9 billion dollars missing in Iraq Bush money network rooted in Florida, Texas: Since Mr. Bush took office in 2001, the federal government has awarded more than $3 billion in contracts to the President's elite 2004 Texas fund-raisers, their businesses, and lobbying clients More... 10.) Labor Power is Suppressed: Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed. Labor Department warns unions against using their money politically President Bush Attacks Organized Labor: Bush attacked organized labor Saturday, issuing orders effectively reducing how much money unions can spend for political activities and opening up government contracts to non-union bidding. March 2001: President Bush signed his name to four executive orders on organized labor last month, including one that cuts the money unions will have for political campaign spending. Congress and the Department of Labor are trying to change the rules on overtime pay, eliminating the 40 hour work week, taking eligibility for overtime pay away from millions of workers, and replacing time and a half pay with comp days. More... 11.) Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts: Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts is openly attacked, and governments often refuse to fund the arts. Bush's new economic plan cuts funding for arts, education Artists from all over the world are being refused entry to the US on security grounds. A group of more than 60 top U.S. scientists, including 20 Nobel laureates and several science advisers to past Republican presidents, on Wednesday accused the Bush administration of manipulating and censoring science for political purposes Freedom of Repression: New ruling will allow censorship of campus publications More... 12.) Obsession with Crime and Punishment: Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations American Gestapo is here: "There is hereby created and established a permanent police force, to be known as the 'United States Secret Service Uniformed Division.'" America: secret jails, secret courts, secret arrests, and now secret laws Snitch-or-Go-to-Jail bill will make pretty much anything short of reporting on everyone you see for doing just about anything a jailable offense. With minimum sentences, up to and including life without parole. The problem with Gonzales is that he has been deeply involved in developing some of the most sweeping claims of near-dictatorial presidential power in our nation's history, allowing him to imprison and even (at least in theory) torture anyone in the world, at any time Police officers don't have to give a reason at the time they arrest someone, the U.S. Supreme Court said in a ruling that shields officers from false-arrest lawsuits. More... 13.) Rampant Cronyism and Corruption: Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders. Bush Cronyism: Foxes Guarding the henhouse Making Sense of the Abramoff Scandal If Bush's pick is confirmed, that will mean the five top appointees at Justice have zero prosecutorial experience among them. Iran-Contra Felons Get Good Jobs from Bush Big Iraq Reconstruction Contracts Went To Big Donors Bush Wars -- Crooks Get Contracts : The main companies that were awarded billions of dollars worth of contracts in Iraq have paid more than $300 million in fines since 2000, to resolve allegations of fraud, bid rigging, delivery of faulty military equipment, and environmental damage. US Coalition Provisional Authority (CPA) lost track of $9 billion "Contracting in the aftermath of the hurricanes has been marked by waste, corruption and cronyism" More... 14. Fraudulent Elections: Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections. Rolling Stone does some investigative and rather exhaustive digging into public documents and says we’re almost guaranteed the 2004 election results were massively rigged Powerful Government Accounting Office report confirms key 2004 stolen election findings Conyers hearing in which Clinton Curtis testifies that he was hired to create hackable voting machines The Republican Party has quietly paid hundreds of thousands of dollars to provide private defense lawyers for a former Bush campaign official charged with conspiring to keep Democrats from voting in New Hampshire. The Conyers Report No explanation for the machines in Mahoning County that recorded Kerry votes for Bush, the improper purging in Cuyahoga County, the lock down in Warren County, the 99% voter turnout in Miami County, the machine tampering in Hocking County Less access than Kazakhstan. Fewer fail-safes than Venezuela. Not as simple Republic of Georgia. The 2004 Elections according to international observers. This picture is what stopped the ballot recounts in Florida shortly after it seemed that legitimate President Gore had a lead. The "citizens" started what was later called "the preppy riot". Screaming, yelling, pounding on the walls, these "outraged citizens" intimidated the polling officials to halt the court mandated recount. A closer look reveals who they really were. They were bussed and flown in at Republican lawmakers expense. Some even flew in on Tom Delay's private plane. More... If Mussolini defines fascism as "the merger of corporate and government power" what does that make the K Street project? Related Articles: "Now and Then"- Part 1 A 3 part series by W David Jenkins III on the similarities between America now and Germany post Reichstag fire "Now and Then"- Part II: The Propaganda Machine "Now and Then"- Part III Hitler's Playbook: Bush and the Abuse of Power It may sound crazy to some, but the style of governing into which America has slid is most accurately described as fascism. Is America Becoming Fascist? Eternal Fascism: Fourteen Ways of Looking at a Blackshirt The Danger of American Fascism: With a fascist the problem is never how best to present the truth to the public but how best to use the news to deceive the public into giving the fascist and his group more money or more power. Sheila Samples: Freedom To Fascism -- A Bumpy Ride: Republicans don't seem to realize that they are no longer individual members of a coherent "party," but are merely part of a mean-spirited and dangerous movement that is threatening to sweep away democracy as we know it. Germany In 1933: The Easy Slide Into Fascism The Brownshirting of America: Bush’s supporters demand lock-step consensus that Bush is right. They regard truthful reports that Saddam Hussein had no weapons of mass destruction and was not involved in the September 11 attack on the US – truths now firmly established by the Bush administration’s own reports – as treasonous America-bashing. Fascism then. Fascism now? When people think of fascism, they imagine Rows of goose-stepping storm troopers and puffy-chested dictators. What they don't see is the economic and political process that leads to the nightmare. What is Fascism? Some General Ideological Features Hello. You are now living in a fascist empire Neo-fascism in America: Too many people believe fascism is only about goose-stepping, jack-booted Nazis. Too many people believe that American democracy is so strong that fascists could never take control of America. If you are sympathetic to those views, I invite you to consider the possibility that you are mistaken. It is in times of fascism rising that armies of ignorance are once more resuscitated from the bowels of a society bordering on the edge of mass psychosis. The America at the dawn of the twenty-first century is no exception... Republican Party Brown Shirts: "The Wide-Awakes": The organization was known for virulent anti-Catholicism, secretive rituals, and a military-style organization complete with "officers" and units. Harper's Magazine: We Now Live in a Fascist State They Saw It Coming: The 19th-Century Libertarian Critique of Fascism Victims of Creeping Fascism: We are witnessing nothing less astonishing than the demise of the American experiment. 12-20 The ten phases of a Bush scandal. 12-22 America is headed for a soft dictatorship by the end of Bush’s second term. "Go lie down, Terry. You're clearly tired." Go blow it out your ass, Slattery. That's obviously where your brains are located.

My, Len. You certainly do have a high opinion of yourself. Believe it or not, my world does not revolve around you. If I feel that a thread has outlived its usefulness, or that my opponent is incorrigible and arguing in bad faith, I will drop it and move on. Or sometimes I just let the other guy have the last word. I had a feeling I was being set up by the "have you ever served?" query, but I answered it honestly and gave the inquisitor the benefit of the doubt. My bad. I entered a den of thieves and expected honorable treatment. Since you've already determined my "chickenhawk" status, answer me this: besides Afghanistan, what other wars have you supported, signed up for, and fought in? Was the fighting rough in Afghanistan? Did you kill many Taliban? Don't you realize that taking the fight to the enemy only makes them angrier? Dissent is a valuable right in wartime, esp with so many lives on the line, but the policies you pursue are objectively pro-terrorist. You're unable to recognize true evil or summon the willpower to do anything about it. For the past 50 years, every single Muslim-inspired terrorist attack - from the ruthless slaughter of innocent life to the perpetration of mass murders in New York, Washington, D.C., London, Madrid, Bali, Bombay, etc. - has had its share of Western apologists. The spinners and equivacators cling to the notion that there is something "legitimate" or "understandable" underlying these blood-soaked crimes, as if the perpetrators had a legitimate grievance or a "point." Thus, September 11 becomes a "failure of U.S. policy" or "blowback for US interference" instead of the ruthless success of Islamic fanatics. Fast forward to 2006, where it is Israel - not Hamas or Hezbollah - who must exercise "restraint." The unspoken message? Terrorists are incapable of behaving like civilized human beings, so it is incumbent upon the rest of us to "acquiesce." NOT GONNA HAPPEN. In the meantime, people like you can't decide if US troops are fanatical killers or duped children in need of rescuing or redeployment. For the record, the vast majority want to stay and finish the job. But don't let that stop you from whispering sweet nothings of defeatism in their ears. I mean, what soldier's morale wouldn't be boosted by left-wing assertions that he's "fighting for a lie"? Some free advice: in the future, if you don't wish to be derided as a wishy-washy lib at best and terrorist sympathizer at worst, then try not to believe the worst about the United States and the best about its enemies. *********************************************************************** "Dissent is a valuable right in wartime, esp with so many lives on the line, but the policies you pursue are objectively pro-terrorist. You're unable to recognize true evil or summon the willpower to do anything about it. For the past 50 years, every single Muslim-inspired terrorist attack - from the ruthless slaughter of innocent life to the perpetration of mass murders in New York, Washington, D.C., London, Madrid, Bali, Bombay, etc. - has had its share of Western apologists. The spinners and equivacators cling to the notion that there is something "legitimate" or "understandable" underlying these blood-soaked crimes, as if the perpetrators had a legitimate grievance or a "point." Thus, September 11 becomes a "failure of U.S. policy" or "blowback for US interference" instead of the ruthless success of Islamic fanatics. Fast forward to 2006, where it is Israel - not Hamas or Hezbollah - who must exercise "restraint." The unspoken message? Terrorists are incapable of behaving like civilized human beings, so it is incumbent upon the rest of us to "acquiesce." NOT GONNA HAPPEN. In the meantime, people like you can't decide if US troops are fanatical killers or duped children in need of rescuing or redeployment. For the record, the vast majority want to stay and finish the job. But don't let that stop you from whispering sweet nothings of defeatism in their ears. I mean, what soldier's morale wouldn't be boosted by left-wing assertions that he's "fighting for a lie"?" Oh, Jesus! I see where this numbnuts is headed. You'd feel so much better if we'd just be able to excise the whole Middle East with some incredible Star Warz-type of laser, cast it off into the stratosphere, and blow it all to smithereens, right? That'll teach those rag-heads and yamulka wearers to xxxx with the good old U.S.of A.! Right, whiz kid? Your fascist attitude wreaks to high heaven, you dimwit.

That's because everything's suspicious in Buff Land. Ken Lay? Suspicious! Gary Webb? Suspicious! Head snap? Suspicious! Motorcade route? Suspicious! Slattery? Brilliant! You get the picture. ************************************************************ Did anyone ever tell you how much you resemble your cockeyed idol, G.W.? "Wot? Me Worry?" You are literally insane.

Terry, you really need to work on your comebacks. The one above is so oooollldddd. Do you have no other weapons in your arsenal? ************************************************* "Terry, you really need to work on your comebacks. The one above is so oooollldddd. Do you have no other weapons in your arsenal?" But, of course I do, my child. Except in chronic cases of "hoof 'n' mouth" disease, of which you seem to be exhibiting of late. THE CLYDE AWARD seems to be the antidote for that malady. If, for serving no other purpose than that of reminding one of the graveness of their condition. Unfortunately, there are those of us who find your case of it to be one of extreme toxicity, as well as malodorous in content, having seemingly progressed to its terminal stages. Pity, for someone so young as yourself to have been so negatively afflicted.

QUOTE(Bill Miller @ Jul 16 2006, 03:30 PM) * QUOTE Your attack was obviously very traumatic and despite our differences I'm glad you survived. I imagine it is more gratifying to think you had been targeted for assassination than that you nearly died because a nut job broke into your house but IMHO the latter is more likely than the former. Len There is no doubt in my mind that it wasn't a CIA plot, but implying that it was does make for a more interesting story. Besides, why would the CIA want Jack gone ... he has been their best asset at making CT's look incompetent! Bill Miller Post of the Day. **************************************************** "Post of the Day." Nope. Sorry sonny, more like THE CLYDE AWARD of the day

The Federal Reserve begat the three I's: IRS, Interest Rate, Inflation Video and description taken directly from http://www.consciousmedianetwork. com. Please visit the website for MUCH more information on other ... all » such topics and interviews. "Born in Brooklyn and raised on Long Island, Aaron Russo began promoting rock and roll shows at local theaters while still a high school student. From there, he worked for his family's business, opened a night club in Chicago where he helped create the careers of such legendary acts as Led Zeppelin, The Who, Janis Joplin, The Grateful Dead and Jefferson Airplane. No stranger to success, Aaron was the first Hollywood Producer to command $1 million for his services, with titles such as 'Trading Places' and 'The Rose' after a seven year partnership with Bette Midler, whom he managed to become the superstar she now is. Aaron has now stepped out and produced a radical new movie called 'America: From Freedom to Fascism' and it has received standing ovations in theatres from all around the country in its test marketing. Destined to be one of this years great movies, he takes things way further than Michael Moore and proves that the there is nothing in the tax code that says you have to pay tax on your labor. Now it's time for you to decide for yourself. Do we stand up for our constitutional rights or do we bury our heads in fear from political and social pressure." « Prev « Prev - Next video » Next video » Playlist - Details - From user - Related - CommentsNew! Executive Producers: Regina & Scott Meredith Interviewer: Regina Meredith Interviewee: Aaron Russo * Credit to Wim Dankbarr for sending me this link. TM

Very interesting John, Please keep us informed. Whether he committed suicide or was murdered, looks like he knew something that was dangerous....as did Lay. All too often the police look the other way and label them natural causes or suicide when they are not, however. I wouldn't want to bet on those three guys living long and healthy lives either. In JFK case so many died conveniently when they were starting to talk or about to be interviewed or interrogated. Watergate had its murders. Iran-Contra its. Many bank scandals had theirs - Calvi comes to mind as do so many other....Now Enron. It doesn't surprise me. Those who would go into other nations and kill innocent people on trumped-up charges, rape and plunder the world, kill duly-elected leaders of their own and other nations would order the assassination of someone who might look behind the curtain of the Wizards of Oz as easily as they order another drink. Sadly. Morality is not even in their world view nor field of vision. Only money and power and retaining both at all costs. Ever was thus. Well, guess what, folks? It's time for another CLYDE AWARD!!!

_________________________________________________ "Recap: a respected curator like Mack is banished, but Jack White gets to hang around and advance every uninformed, crackpot theory known to man. That seems fair." Stand by, folks. There's gonna be another CLYDE AWARD!!!

Now, this is not a reply to Mr. Carroll, because I would not tell him the directions to Hades if he had nowhere else to go, and a hot date waiting there. I've yet to see him contribute any single thing of substance; apparently he is far too busy authoring sideline carping criticisms of other people's hard-won contributions, while back-channel tag-teaming (I've got it on record in the Diem cables thread in the Watergate forum) with Pat Speer, who posted sworn testimony there that he had subtley fudged to suit his own purposes (I've got it on record in the Diem cables thread). Ashton Gray Anyone interested in seeing how something as exotic as an agent/provocateur, or something as banal as an internet xxxxx, behaves, should just sit back and read Mr. Gray's posts. He couldn't counter that Colson testified to having been aware of the creation of the cables, so he decided to attack me as having mis-typed something on purpose. Simply amazing. When a man commits a crime, and admits to it, and multiple witnesses acknowledge they either witnessed the crime or it's being covered up, and NO ONE who knows the admitted criminal or the witnesses has the least bit doubt the crime occurred, it is simply wacky to decide the crime never occurred. Since Ashton has theorized this non-crime was invented to damage Nixon, perhaps he can show us how this non-crime damaged Nixon, as none of the men involved in the commission of this crime ever testified to Nixon having any knowledge of the crime or its cover-up. Perhaps he also can explain why inventing a story about faked cables was so much easier than actually creating fake cables. ___________________________________________________________ So what don't you see here, Pat? It seems pretty cut and dry, to me.

Looks like there's going to be another CLYDE AWARD!!!

What his political beliefs were have NOTHING to do with the wisdom of his statements. FYI I am not a communist, but even your bringing that up is only to ignore the facts and issues. It is PRECISELY because I would love to love my country if only it would act in way one could even like, that I shed a tear or give a damn! That people come to the USA for economic advantage says nothing of the moral and ethical poverty in the land. I don't want you to do anything in my name. A certain type of knee-jerk patriotism is the first step toward what happened in Germany in the 30s...my country right or wrong...never...my country only when it does right and I do NOT seeing it [on the level of the ruling elite] doing anything right except heading to the extreme right and taking the whole country and planet to destruction and along the short path that will be, toward an anti-democratic, anti-humanistic, pro-war, pro-hate, imperialistic, neo-fascist, immoral and illegal interlude we now live in. And by the way LHO who was not the assassin and did not fire any shots that day worked for the CIA and was on the right as were all his handlers - not to mention those that maneuvered him into being the patsy.....!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I will not waste any more time on your absurd white is black ignorance. You are either in the service of those deceptive masters or have been totally fooled by them. ************************************************************* "It just wouldn't be July 4th without another poison pill sent to the US on her birthday. So classy. So ... predictable. Funny how I've been living in a "police state" for 39 years but failed to take notice. I guess the millions who have been streaming across the Mexican border, or braving the shark-filled waters off of Cuba, or hiding in cargo containers from the Far East failed to get your memo about this "ULTRA right, neo-fascist, insanely-millenialist-Christian extremist, militarist, totalitarian" hellhole we warmly call America. Don't love this country? Fine. I'll love it enough for the both of us, warts and all. Have fun losing elections with that kind of mad verbiage." There's going to be a Clyde Award!

I am sure something will occur to me, after Pat Speer has had his opportunity for rebuttal. Since Mr. Gray's style is somewhat, how shall I say, circumlocutous, and since you can understand it, perhaps you Dawn, would be kind enough to summarize his arguments in a nice legal manner so that they are a little less opaque. I am sure Terry Mauro is not the only one who has difficulty deciphering what Ashton really means. If there are any relevant legal issues, perhaps you would point them out to us also. As I see it up to now, Pat Speer alleges that E. Howard Hunt is guilty of forgery, while Ashton Gray says that Hunt is innocent. Thank you in anticipation. ********************************************************* "As I see it up to now, Pat Speer alleges that E. Howard Hunt is guilty of forgery, while Ashton Gray says that Hunt is innocent." What?!?!?!? Please site exactly where he says that Hunt is innocent? Here we go 'round in circles...

*********************************************************** "I distinctly recall that I burned them during Christmas week with the Christmas and household paper trash that had accumulated immediately following Christmas. To this point I had not read or examined the files. But immediately before putting them in the fire I opened one of the files. It contained what appeared to be copies of "Top Secret" state department cablegrams. I read the first cable. I do not recall the exact language but the text of the cable implicated officials of the Kennedy Administration in the assassination of President Diem of South Vietnam." Well then, isn't that considered to be tampering with State's evidence? In that respect, Ashton is right in contending there are no cables. Therefore, one is left with what is known as "circumstantial evidence." "Q: And what intepretation, if any, did you give him concerning the cables? EHH: I told him that the construction I placed upon the absence of certain cables was that they had been abstracted from the files maintained in the Department of State in chronological fashion. And that while there was every reason to believe, on the basis of the accumulated evidence and the cable documentation, that the Kennedy Administration was implicitly if not explicitly responsible for the assassination of Diem and his brother-in-law, that there was no hard evidence such as a cable emanating from the White House or a reply coming from Saigon, the Saigon Embassy." Aka, "circumstantial evidence." "Q: Did you in fact fabricate cables for the purpose of indicating the relationship of the Kennedy Administration and the assassination of Diem? EHH: I did. Q: And did you show these fabricated cables to Mr. Colson? EHH: I did. Q: What was his response to the fabricated cables? EHH: He indicated to me that he would probably be getting in touch with a member of the media, of the press, to whom he would show the cables." A pre-meditated, egregious, and deceitful obstruction of justice, employing malice aforethought. This all leads back to a murder case, mind you. Actually, to two subsequent "bloody" coup d'etats, as opposed to those of the "bloodless" kind, if you will. But, alas that's just my humble opinion and take on this whole sordid mess. Terry, the discussion isn't IF the cables exist, it's IF they ever existed. I say "Yes." For some strange reason, Ashon says "NO." I do not understand how he could assert such a thing, when we have Nixon and Ehrlichman discussing the cables in private, have Hunt testifying he created them, and Gray testifying he looked at them before he destroyed them. There are numerous other references to the cables. For example, we have the disgraced former Attorney General John Mitchell discussing them in his July 10, 1973 testimony before the Watergate Committee. He cites the creation of these cables as one of the prime reasons he (Mitchell) participated in the cover-up, encouraging Mr. Magruder to perjure hmself, and giving hush money to Hunt and the "burglars." Here he is being questioned by minority counsel Fred Thompson, who went onto play senators in movies and eventually become a Senator himself. "Q: Let me refer to June 19 and 20 (NOTE: this was 2 days after the break-in), I am not quite sure when it was, Mr. Mitchell. As I understand it, Mr. Mardian and LaRue debriefed Liddy and found out what he knew about the break-in, his involvement, and the involvement of others. And at that time, he related to them some of the White House horror stories, I believe you characterized them as, the plumbers activity and so forth. I will go back to that in a minute, but as I understand your testimony this morning, this is really the reason, the knowledge you got from that debriefing was really the reason why you, in effect, stood by while Mr. Magruder was preparing a story which, according to what you knew from Liddy, was going to be a false story to present to a jury. JM: Along, Mr. Thompson, with some of the other stories that Mr. Dean brought forward to him, the Diem papers and the suspected extra-curricular wiretapping, and a few of the others." So here we have John Mitchell, one of Nixon's best friends and closest political allies, testifyng that he was aware of the cables within days of the break-in, before Hunt was ever arrested. He states, furthermore, that his awareness of these cables was instrumental in his decision to participate in the cover-up. He obviously considered them real and very damaging. It's of interest as well, that it was he who brought up the cables, not his questioner. Thompson was minority counsel...in other words, he represented the Republicans on the committee. As such, Thompson's job was, in fact, to get enough of the truth out to satisfy the public, but not so much it would hurt his party's chances in upcoming elections. Thompson, not coincidentally, wrote a long section of the Watergate Report on possible CIA involvement. This was obviously done to murk the waters a bit and make the blatant head-to-toe corruption of the Nixon Administration less clear-cut. The Republicans were fighting for their life and knew it. In sum, there is simply no reason to believe the cables did not exist, outside of a burning desire to believe that everything we've ever learned or been told about Watergate is some gigantic CIA lie. None of the men whose careers were upset or destroyed by their existence ever doubted their existence. They even testified to creating the cables and looking at the cables. If they didn't doubt their existence, why should we? I believe you should really ask yourself who benefits from Ashton's illogical assertion that these cables did not exist. And the answer is... Richard Nixon. If the cables did not exist, it means that everything we were told by Dean, Hunt, and Gray about the cables was some sort of set-up, by either the Democrats, the CIA, or both. Although Ashton denies being a Nixon apologist, when I have asked him if he felt that Nixon was guilty of impeachable offenses he has repeatedly refused to answer. Once again, Ashton, was Nixon guilty of impeachable offenses? If so, why is it LOGICAL to believe the cables did not exist? The CIA could still have played a role in the Watergate story. The agency could have encouraged McCord and Hunt, and leaked information to Woodward, in order to help bring Nixon down. Why is it so much more LOGICAL to you to believe the agency set Nixon up from the beginning, and that men such as Dean, Liddy and Hunt, by all appearances loyal to Nixon before they were threatened with imprisonment, and even afterwards in Liddy's case, were part of a plan to destroy Nixon? Please explain to us why Nixon recalled the cables being shown to Life Magazine if they in fact did not exist. Please explain to us why L. Patrick Gray would resign in disgrace after admitting he destroyed the cables if they in fact did not exist. ************************************************************** "I believe you should really ask yourself who benefits from Ashton's illogical assertion that these cables did not exist. And the answer is... Richard Nixon. If the cables did not exist, it means that everything we were told by Dean, Hunt, and Gray about the cables was some sort of set-up, by either the Democrats, the CIA, or both. Although Ashton denies being a Nixon apologist, when I have asked him if he felt that Nixon was guilty of impeachable offenses he has repeatedly refused to answer. Once again, Ashton, was Nixon guilty of impeachable offenses? If so, why is it LOGICAL to believe the cables did not exist? The CIA could still have played a role in the Watergate story. The agency could have encouraged McCord and Hunt, and leaked information to Woodward, in order to help bring Nixon down. Why is it so much more LOGICAL to you to believe the agency set Nixon up from the beginning, and that men such as Dean, Liddy and Hunt, by all appearances loyal to Nixon before they were threatened with imprisonment, and even afterwards in Liddy's case, were part of a plan to destroy Nixon?" I believe Ashton was inferring that the cables do not exist NOW. I don't remember him saying that they never existed, at all. L.P. Gray attested to their existence, as you've been so helpful to point out, but turned around and destroyed them. So, they do not exist in the record today. I specifically do not remember Ashton stating that they NEVER existed, but that if you knew they were in existence today, for you to produce them. At least that's the gist I got from that exchange when it was taking place. As far as any loyalty to Nixon on the parts of Hunt, Liddy, Woodward, or any of the other "usual suspects," you've got to be kidding. The only loyalty those hustlers had was to "The Company" and the "money" it was always so ready to supply them with. Nixon had no one I would ever consider to be loyal to him, except for his wife, and maybe Kissinger, who was merely just another "paid" loyalist, if you will. There is no loyalty in D.C. because everyone is out for themselves, and/or for what other people can do for them to further their aspirations and their personal agendas. Anyway, being loyal to Nixon is analogous to to being loyal to Hitler or Stalin, IMHO. ****************************************************************** "Terry, the discussion isn't IF the cables exist, it's IF they ever existed. I say "Yes." For some strange reason, Ashon says "NO." I do not understand how he could assert such a thing, when we have Nixon and Ehrlichman discussing the cables in private, have Hunt testifying he created them, and Gray testifying he looked at them before he destroyed them. There are numerous other references to the cables." O.K. Then, please clarify for me, if you will, which cables we are referring to: The supposed "original ones," such as those referred to by L.P. Gray...? "I distinctly recall that I burned them during Christmas week with the Christmas and household paper trash that had accumulated immediately following Christmas. To this point I had not read or examined the files. But immediately before putting them in the fire I opened one of the files. It contained what appeared to be copies of "Top Secret" state department cablegrams. I read the first cable. I do not recall the exact language but the text of the cable implicated officials of the Kennedy Administration in the assassination of President Diem of South Vietnam." or, the supposed "pre-fabbed ones," such as those created and referred to, by Hunt...? "Q: And what intepretation, if any, did you give him concerning the cables? EHH: I told him that the construction I placed upon the ABSENCE of certain cables was that they had been abstracted from the files maintained in the Department of State in chronological fashion. And that while there was every reason to believe, on the basis of the accumulated evidence and the cable documentation, that the Kennedy Administration was implicitly if not explicitly responsible for the assassination of Diem and his brother-in-law, that there was no hard evidence such as a cable emanating from the White House or a reply coming from Saigon, the Saigon Embassy." Am I led to believe that I'm misreading something here? Or, are we merely being lead down another rabbit hole? "Or, are we just jerking off?"

*********************************************************** "I distinctly recall that I burned them during Christmas week with the Christmas and household paper trash that had accumulated immediately following Christmas. To this point I had not read or examined the files. But immediately before putting them in the fire I opened one of the files. It contained what appeared to be copies of "Top Secret" state department cablegrams. I read the first cable. I do not recall the exact language but the text of the cable implicated officials of the Kennedy Administration in the assassination of President Diem of South Vietnam." Well then, isn't that considered to be tampering with State's evidence? In that respect, Ashton is right in contending there are no cables. Therefore, one is left with what is known as "circumstantial evidence." "Q: And what intepretation, if any, did you give him concerning the cables? EHH: I told him that the construction I placed upon the absence of certain cables was that they had been abstracted from the files maintained in the Department of State in chronological fashion. And that while there was every reason to believe, on the basis of the accumulated evidence and the cable documentation, that the Kennedy Administration was implicitly if not explicitly responsible for the assassination of Diem and his brother-in-law, that there was no hard evidence such as a cable emanating from the White House or a reply coming from Saigon, the Saigon Embassy." Aka, "circumstantial evidence." "Q: Did you in fact fabricate cables for the purpose of indicating the relationship of the Kennedy Administration and the assassination of Diem? EHH: I did. Q: And did you show these fabricated cables to Mr. Colson? EHH: I did. Q: What was his response to the fabricated cables? EHH: He indicated to me that he would probably be getting in touch with a member of the media, of the press, to whom he would show the cables." A pre-meditated, egregious, and deceitful obstruction of justice, employing malice aforethought. This all leads back to a murder case, mind you. Actually, to two subsequent "bloody" coup d'etats, as opposed to those of the "bloodless" kind, if you will. But, alas that's just my humble opinion and take on this whole sordid mess. Terry, the discussion isn't IF the cables exist, it's IF they ever existed. I say "Yes." For some strange reason, Ashon says "NO." I do not understand how he could assert such a thing, when we have Nixon and Ehrlichman discussing the cables in private, have Hunt testifying he created them, and Gray testifying he looked at them before he destroyed them. There are numerous other references to the cables. For example, we have the disgraced former Attorney General John Mitchell discussing them in his July 10, 1973 testimony before the Watergate Committee. He cites the creation of these cables as one of the prime reasons he (Mitchell) participated in the cover-up, encouraging Mr. Magruder to perjure hmself, and giving hush money to Hunt and the "burglars." Here he is being questioned by minority counsel Fred Thompson, who went onto play senators in movies and eventually become a Senator himself. "Q: Let me refer to June 19 and 20 (NOTE: this was 2 days after the break-in), I am not quite sure when it was, Mr. Mitchell. As I understand it, Mr. Mardian and LaRue debriefed Liddy and found out what he knew about the break-in, his involvement, and the involvement of others. And at that time, he related to them some of the White House horror stories, I believe you characterized them as, the plumbers activity and so forth. I will go back to that in a minute, but as I understand your testimony this morning, this is really the reason, the knowledge you got from that debriefing was really the reason why you, in effect, stood by while Mr. Magruder was preparing a story which, according to what you knew from Liddy, was going to be a false story to present to a jury. JM: Along, Mr. Thompson, with some of the other stories that Mr. Dean brought forward to him, the Diem papers and the suspected extra-curricular wiretapping, and a few of the others." So here we have John Mitchell, one of Nixon's best friends and closest political allies, testifyng that he was aware of the cables within days of the break-in, before Hunt was ever arrested. He states, furthermore, that his awareness of these cables was instrumental in his decision to participate in the cover-up. He obviously considered them real and very damaging. It's of interest as well, that it was he who brought up the cables, not his questioner. Thompson was minority counsel...in other words, he represented the Republicans on the committee. As such, Thompson's job was, in fact, to get enough of the truth out to satisfy the public, but not so much it would hurt his party's chances in upcoming elections. Thompson, not coincidentally, wrote a long section of the Watergate Report on possible CIA involvement. This was obviously done to murk the waters a bit and make the blatant head-to-toe corruption of the Nixon Administration less clear-cut. The Republicans were fighting for their life and knew it. In sum, there is simply no reason to believe the cables did not exist, outside of a burning desire to believe that everything we've ever learned or been told about Watergate is some gigantic CIA lie. None of the men whose careers were upset or destroyed by their existence ever doubted their existence. They even testified to creating the cables and looking at the cables. If they didn't doubt their existence, why should we? I believe you should really ask yourself who benefits from Ashton's illogical assertion that these cables did not exist. And the answer is... Richard Nixon. If the cables did not exist, it means that everything we were told by Dean, Hunt, and Gray about the cables was some sort of set-up, by either the Democrats, the CIA, or both. Although Ashton denies being a Nixon apologist, when I have asked him if he felt that Nixon was guilty of impeachable offenses he has repeatedly refused to answer. Once again, Ashton, was Nixon guilty of impeachable offenses? If so, why is it LOGICAL to believe the cables did not exist? The CIA could still have played a role in the Watergate story. The agency could have encouraged McCord and Hunt, and leaked information to Woodward, in order to help bring Nixon down. Why is it so much more LOGICAL to you to believe the agency set Nixon up from the beginning, and that men such as Dean, Liddy and Hunt, by all appearances loyal to Nixon before they were threatened with imprisonment, and even afterwards in Liddy's case, were part of a plan to destroy Nixon? Please explain to us why Nixon recalled the cables being shown to Life Magazine if they in fact did not exist. Please explain to us why L. Patrick Gray would resign in disgrace after admitting he destroyed the cables if they in fact did not exist. ************************************************************** "I believe you should really ask yourself who benefits from Ashton's illogical assertion that these cables did not exist. And the answer is... Richard Nixon. If the cables did not exist, it means that everything we were told by Dean, Hunt, and Gray about the cables was some sort of set-up, by either the Democrats, the CIA, or both. Although Ashton denies being a Nixon apologist, when I have asked him if he felt that Nixon was guilty of impeachable offenses he has repeatedly refused to answer. Once again, Ashton, was Nixon guilty of impeachable offenses? If so, why is it LOGICAL to believe the cables did not exist? The CIA could still have played a role in the Watergate story. The agency could have encouraged McCord and Hunt, and leaked information to Woodward, in order to help bring Nixon down. Why is it so much more LOGICAL to you to believe the agency set Nixon up from the beginning, and that men such as Dean, Liddy and Hunt, by all appearances loyal to Nixon before they were threatened with imprisonment, and even afterwards in Liddy's case, were part of a plan to destroy Nixon?" I believe Ashton was inferring that the cables do not exist NOW. I don't remember him saying that they never existed, at all. L.P. Gray attested to their existence, as you've been so helpful to point out, but turned around and destroyed them. So, they do not exist in the record today. I specifically do not remember Ashton stating that they NEVER existed, but that if you knew they were in existence today, for you to produce them. At least that's the gist I got from that exchange when it was taking place. As far as any loyalty to Nixon on the parts of Hunt, Liddy, Woodward, or any of the other "usual suspects," you've got to be kidding. The only loyalty those hustlers had was to "The Company" and the "money" it was always so ready to supply them with. Nixon had no one I would ever consider to be loyal to him, except for his wife, and maybe Kissinger, who was merely just another "paid" loyalist, if you will. There is no loyalty in D.C. because everyone is out for themselves, and/or for what other people can do for them to further their aspirations and their personal agendas. Anyway, being loyal to Nixon is analogous to to being loyal to Hitler or Stalin, IMHO.

*********************************************************** "I distinctly recall that I burned them during Christmas week with the Christmas and household paper trash that had accumulated immediately following Christmas. To this point I had not read or examined the files. But immediately before putting them in the fire I opened one of the files. It contained what appeared to be copies of "Top Secret" state department cablegrams. I read the first cable. I do not recall the exact language but the text of the cable implicated officials of the Kennedy Administration in the assassination of President Diem of South Vietnam." Well then, isn't that considered to be tampering with State's evidence? In that respect, Ashton is right in contending there are no cables. Therefore, one is left with what is known as "circumstantial evidence." "Q: And what intepretation, if any, did you give him concerning the cables? EHH: I told him that the construction I placed upon the absence of certain cables was that they had been abstracted from the files maintained in the Department of State in chronological fashion. And that while there was every reason to believe, on the basis of the accumulated evidence and the cable documentation, that the Kennedy Administration was implicitly if not explicitly responsible for the assassination of Diem and his brother-in-law, that there was no hard evidence such as a cable emanating from the White House or a reply coming from Saigon, the Saigon Embassy." Aka, "circumstantial evidence." "Q: Did you in fact fabricate cables for the purpose of indicating the relationship of the Kennedy Administration and the assassination of Diem? EHH: I did. Q: And did you show these fabricated cables to Mr. Colson? EHH: I did. Q: What was his response to the fabricated cables? EHH: He indicated to me that he would probably be getting in touch with a member of the media, of the press, to whom he would show the cables." A pre-meditated, egregious, and deceitful obstruction of justice, employing malice aforethought. This all leads back to a murder case, mind you. Actually, to two subsequent "bloody" coup d'etats, as opposed to those of the "bloodless" kind, if you will. But, alas that's just my humble opinion and take on this whole sordid mess.

Hi A.J., The Case of Congressman Gonzales is certainly one for the MK/ULTRA files, though of course the powers that be used him to get Richard Sprague, the first chief counsel of the House Select Committee on Assassinations (HSCA), who we hope to be the lead prosecutor (with Bob Tannenbaum) for the Mock Grand Jury. Gonzalas was the second chairman of the HSCA. The first (Tom Downing? of Virginia) was convinced of conspiracy by a private screening of the Zap film, but after getting the Committee going, retired, leaving it to Gonzalas, the Texas Congressman who should have ex-cused himself for being a material witness - he recovered John Connally's clothes and destroyed them as evidence. When Richard Sprague, the Philadelphia prosecutor who had already successfully prosecuted a political assassination (Lablonski UMW) was appointed chief counsel of the HSCA - the most powerful position after Chairman, he began formal homicide investigations into the murders of JFK and MLK. This, of course, was not going to play out, and the power struggle on the Hill resulted in Gonzalas losing the chairmanship and Sprague being sent back to Philly. Replacing him, G.R. Blakey, began to write a report. Now we'd like to see what Sprgue could do with a grand jury. Hi Bill: Are you saying Sprage is willing to do this? (Provided he's appointed, of course. IF that is even how this would proceed. Normally it's the DA who convens a Grand Jury, so I do not know the procedure here). That would be fantastic!! He was our best hope during HSCA and when he was driven from his position by the horrible news stories in the Op Mickingbird- (CIA-controlled)- press it was all downhill after that. Attorney -"The- Mob- did- it" Robert Blakey was...ah.. not a good person to replace the inimitable Sprague. (For those unfamiliar with all of this history, I highly recommend former HSCA investigator Gaeton Fonzi's book "The Last Investigation" ). We desperately need a Grand Jury investigation. While some of the conspirators are still alive (and thus indictable). Dawn ******************************************************** "He was our best hope during HSCA and when he was driven from his position by the horrible news stories in the Op Mockingbird- (CIA-controlled)- press it was all downhill after that. Attorney -"The- Mob- did- it" Robert Blakey was...ah.. not a good person to replace the inimitable Sprague." Especially after Blakey appointed Georges Johannides [head of DRE out of JM/WAVE] to the committee. Talk about letting the fox into the henhouse. A major gaff on the part of Blakey's whether intentional, or not.

********************************************************* "Perhaps I'm being overly sensitive and not giving Forum members enough credit, but I'd like to make clear that Daniel Wayne DUNN [no "e" on the end] is NOT to be confused with yours truly, Robert Charles-DUNNE [with an "e" on the end.] Thanks." Trust me, RCD. This DWD with no "e" on the end, couldn't hold a candle to you. Plus, he turns like a rabid dog on you when you try to explain something to him.