Linda Giovanna Zambanini

Someone please refresh my memory for me. How tall were Lovelady and Shelley?

I think Lovelady was 5'8" - think I read it on here in fact and I was sort of surprised because I had in my mind that he was shorter - like 5'5" or something. Not sure about Shelley - but he looks tall. I just googled Shelley's ht...haven't found it yet. Keep getting hits about the length of the "rifle" package! But also... hits for Intelius, radaris etc... saying Wm Hoyt Shelley is 89yo and living in Irving! Is that possible? I didn't realize he was still around.

Hi Tommy! Really?! To save time so I don't have to download that Darnell still in your post then circle things and upload it to imgur so I can post it here - I will just explain. If it's still not clear, let me know.

I'm talking about the big (wide) guy in the white shirt to the immediate right of Frazier (ie: to Frazier's immediate left). He has a black horizontal "stripe" near the top of his face - those are sunglasses, IMO. From a distance, that stripe may give the impression he has on a hat. But if you blow it up it looks like sunglasses to me. I can see how you would think it's may be a gray hat with a black hatband - but it's not, IMO. In that Darnell still he does not have his arms crossed over his head shading his eyes as he did in in Altgens 6 (I think he's the same guy...).

Now there is a person in that Darnell still, just to the right of "Molina", and down a step or 2 that has her arm/ hand up shading her eyes. And immediately below her is the woman I've previously said I think is Carolyn Arnold (who, my interpretation is, returned to the steps after the shots, and seems to be gazing westward down Elm from that higher vantage point, trying to see what's happening.) I have no idea who the person is with his/her arm/hand shading his/her eyes - it might be Pauline Sanders, who was on the landing originally to the right of Molina, OR it might be Sarah Stanton, whom Sanders said was "next to" her - just a guess. Or it might be somebody who ran back to the steps, like Carolyn A. and climbed up there to have a look.

It's possible it's Sanders since this is right after the shots. She said she stayed on the steps "for a moment" after the shots, then went out to the island to get a better look down Elm, also "for a moment", then returned to her 2nd floor office.


Btw...in making this post I looked up Pauline Sanders - she has a findagrave page - d. 1996.

Stanton didn't have one - she died in '92 - so I ended up researching her and making a findagrave page for her here. Her full name was Sarah Juanita Dean Stanton. Maiden name "Dean".
However, and this is weird, she also went by Sarah Dean Daniel - I found a probate record for her with that name, in parenthesis, listed under her other name. So I searched for Sarah Daniel and Sara Dean Daniel and found out she went by Sarah Daniel in the 1940 Census - and she was listed as the 18yo niece of a Martin family: Steven D. Martin (head) and Willa D. Martin (wife). So I'm pretty lost as to what exactly is going on in that family tree! Maybe her parent's died or were killed early? But that doesn't explain the surname Daniel. She obviously has a sister or brother or both, because the inscription on her headstone says "Sister" at the top. I've pretty much given up on it for the moment...

Linda,

I think we're talking about different people.

If you could indicate who you're talking about with an arrow or a circle, then I'll either confirm or deny.

I would do it myself, but I don't know how.

--Tommy

Here is a graphic showing the location of Judy Johnson - previously known as "Scarf Girl" in the Wiegman "Truly Group". In case you're lost...she's a little hard to see. She's turned sideways to us in front of Carolyn Arnold - she has on a light colored scarf and we don't see her face. In color her 3/4 length coat was light green. She was one of the ones locked out of the bldg when she tried to return, so we should keep an eye out for her in B&W and color film & photos. I was hoping to find her - in color - in Skaggs12. But no luck.

And here are a couple graphics I made showing the Truly Group in Wiegman and Beztner 2. First, the Wiegman panorama (click to enlarge):



And here's Betzner 2 - which was/is not very helpful due to overexposure. I adjusted the lighting to try to bring out the people on the north side of Elm in the Truly group (click to enlarge):

Continued...grrrrrrrr....

[...]

As of today I believe the very petite "Scarf Girl" in front of Carolyn Arnold in the Truly Group, on Elm in Wiegman, is is JUDY JOHNSON, who was a very petite brunette (she's coming up)! But that is a little tentative. However, she said she was in a 3/4 length light green coat (with orange gloves) and so far the "Scarf Girl" is the only one i spot wearing a 3/4 length coat and she's also a very petite woman. So i'm 99.9999999% certain.

very nice work...

Thank you so much, David! I've been working hard... and have uncovered a bunch of stuff (more important than this). More to come, when i have time and get some rest. So as of today we are down to 3 people to the right of Stetson Man who have not been ID'd (and i'm becoming convinced the woman to the rt of Virgie in the skirt and white blouse w/o a coat or purse has to be 27yo, Betty Dragoo - by process of elimination. She left those in her office and then was locked out. )

Continued...... again....

Now for Judy Johnson! This photo was given to "Dustin", a friend of the family, to make public - he's not a member here so he chased me down at ROKC and posted it there in my PM/IR620 thread, unbeknownst to me till last night since i've been busy with other things and have not posted or checked things over there for some time now. In the meantime a couple of days ago i researched Judy Johnson and found her yearbook photos and made a collage of photos i snipped from her Sr. yearbook (1962) - the TSBD was her "first job". He also related some ver interesting info from Judy and her daughter about what she experienced that day and in the aftermath - eg: the way the FBI questioned her and TOLD her just exactly how many shots there were (just ONE!) when she said "three", and how Buell Frazier "is a l*i*a*r" (we are waiting for Dustin to correspond with her and to find out exactly what she meant by that. In general? About the assassination? PM? etc - I will post it when i find out).

Circa: early 1970's:

1962:




Here are Dustin's posts to me in my PM thread at ROKC which I am copy & pasting here:

<quote on>

Hi Linda and everyone! My first post and it's not on topic but... The EF forums aren't accepting new members so I figured I'd post this here. All the good info/research is here anyway... Linda asked what Judy Johnson looked like on EF, I don't have her picture but I have been friends with her kids since high school. This is what her daughter said she was wearing and where she was standing.
"I posted that several months ago but I can find it again but her name as listed was Judy Johnson. She was wearing a 3/4 sleeve coat [i believe this must be an ERROR and should read 3/4 LENGTH COAT, like a car coat. People don't wear coats with "3/4 length sleeves" - the point is to keep warm] that was either green with orange cuffs [she later corrected "cuffs" to "GLOVES"] or vice versa. [and she later corrected this saying the coat was green and the gloves, orange]. She was standing in the median directly in front of the book depository where the traffic light is." [This part does not jive with her statement that she was with the Truly group - including Carolyn Arnold, Bonnie Richey, Betty Dragoo etc...so i think she's mistaken and perhaps ran there after the shots as many did, to see what happened but she was not standing there. Or perhaps that was the nearest "landmark" to where they were standing in Elm and she, her daughter or Dustin misspoke, or misunderstood, because she clearly said in her statement that she was with the members of the REAL Truly group - not the other one on the island.]

Her first sentence is because she posted her mothers WC testimony/statement on her fb page two times and both posts disappeared. I searched her page trying to find it afterwards, so I her asked about it. Some other info... She said that some details were left out of her statement (big surprise). She didn't know LHO because he had only worked there a short time. TSBD was her first job, so she would be a young girl. I think she said that she was in a few pictures or films. She said BWF is a lying sack of sh*t! j/k.
[he didn't put the "*" that was necessary to keep the prudish EF autocensor at bay! LOL!]
I can ask her daughter if she knows what films or photos she might be in to help you ID her. Hope this helps.
<end quote>

(Edit 10/1/15: just corresponded with Dustin last night and reminded him that there is open membership at EF now. He wanted to clarify that the sentence i highlighted and underlined in RED above was NOT something Judy or her daughter said about BWF. He said HE was making a joke - which i didn't catch -and said he probably didn't make it clear enough. Judy and/or her daughter did NOT say that, about Buell, Dustin did! So i'm adding this edit to let everyone know.)

2ND POST FROM DUSTIN - HE POSTED HER EMAIL REPLY TO HIM:
(Paragraphs added by me for ease of reading)

<quote on>

"Well, I only saw like a 1-2 second glimpse on a documentary about the assassination. It was probably mid November, 1997 on History Channel. I had been up for a midnight feeding for our son. He wasn't quite a month old when I saw that...Now, my grandmother said she saw my mom on the local news, in Dallas. She said it showed the employees of the School Book Depository waiting outside because nobody was allowed back in the building.

She was wearing a 3/4 sleeve, [Again... no such thing exists in coats - she must mean 3/4 length coat] an orange-red colored coat, with light green cuffs [she later corrected this to light green coat with orange-red gloves] She had dark brown hair, cut in a bubble style & wore cat eye glasses... [no mention of a scarf - however, those can be removed and put in a pocket or purse. Jeraldean read had said she wore a scarf - but she didn't have it on - must've put it in her pocket.]

When Kennedy was shot, she was standing at the triangular, little traffic light. She was in that median. She said she could have stretched out her arm to touch the car when it passed by.. She said she heard about three loud pops. She thought it was a motorcycle backfire, but she said it definitely came from the area of the train yard (grassy knoll).

She said that her statement that was printed was not what she explained. It was cut to nill. She also said that while being "interrogated" , when she explained how many shots & the area that she heard them. She was bluntly told there was one shot & it came from the depository. She said there was always 2 officers...One to question & the other to stare a hole through you. She was questioned by Dallas police, Secret Service, & F.B.I... I'll find a pic of my mom in her younger years & send it to you"
<end quote>

Well, there you have it. Proof positive of how the FBI CONSPIRED to intimidate the witnesses, telling them what they thought and what to say, and altering their statements! That is treason - the whole coup d'etat and the coverup of it was, and is, treason. And the FBI (and CIA, DPD etc..) had one goal in mind in their little "investigation" (read: whitewash): to convict their patsy Lee Harvey Oswald in order to advance and cover up the conspiracy to assassinate our President, JFK, and overthrow our democratically elected government in a military style Coup d'Etat. It was all about siezing power for the military industrial intelligence complex - just as Ike had warned in is farewell speech! And they still control our government today.

My next guess is that Betty Dragoo is the woman in the skirt and white blouse to the rt of Virgie Rackley Baker - she said she left her coat and purse in the office and then was locked out after the assassination - like quite a few. She has no coat or purse. She also looks like she could be ~27. Dragoo's age at the time. But i've researched her and can't find any photos ...frustrating. Hope someone else can find one.


(Edited 9/24/15 to add back in the 2 photos of Judy Johnson that had become delinked from my Imgur gallery photos when i accidently deleted them. Let me know if you run across any others like that! I'm still getting the hang of Imgur.)

Continued...grrrrrrrr....

Wiegman - Truly Group:

As of today I believe the very petite "Scarf Girl" in front of Carolyn Arnold in the Truly Group, on Elm in Wiegman, is is JUDY JOHNSON, who was a very petite brunette (she's coming up)! But that is a little tentative. However, she said she was in a 3/4 length light green coat (with orange gloves) and so far the "Scarf Girl" is the only one i spot wearing a 3/4 length coat and she's also a very petite woman. So i'm 99.9999999% certain.

Looks like some EXCELLENT detective work here! Thanks, Linda!

Thank you, Mark & Tommy!!! And you're welcome!

I've also ID'd a couple more Truly-ettes since then - BONNIE RICHEY & JUDY JOHNSON! It's been a couple of wks ago now that i ID'd Bonnie via year book photos and she is just who i was guessing she might be (because she was hanging out with Carolyn Arnold and caring for her - in Cook-Cooper - and they were both OV Campbell's secretaries! So they were probably great buddies. But i've been onto so much stuff lately (i'm on a roll!) it's like the planets have aligned - i just haven't had time to get bk here to this thread and post her or Judy Johnson who i just found a a couple of nights ago in yearbook photos! So first here's Bonnie she started Abilene Christian College in '65, the 1st photo i found was from the '66 yearbook, then '68:

Ok....these freaking space limits are driving me crazy!!!! What's the purpose??!! I'm just going to go thru a lot of hassle trying to figure out how many to eliminate so this damned thing will post and then i'm going to post the rest of the - anyway - below in another post!

Looks like some EXCELLENT detective work here! Thanks, Linda!

Thank you, Mark & Tommy!!! And you're welcome!

I've also ID'd a couple more Truly-ettes since then - BONNIE RICHEY & JUDY JOHNSON! It's been a couple of wks ago now that i ID'd Bonnie via year book photos and she is just who i was guessing she might be (because she was hanging out with Carolyn Arnold and caring for her - in Cook-Cooper - and they were both OV Campbell's secretaries! So they were probably great buddies. But i've been onto so much stuff lately (i'm on a roll!) it's like the planets have aligned - i just haven't had time to get bk here to this thread and post her or Judy Johnson who i just found a a couple of nights ago in yearbook photos! So first here's Bonnie she started Abilene Christian College in '65, the 1st photo i found was from the '66 yearbook, then '68:

Cook-Cooper Film:

ADDENDUM: and as of today I believe the very petite "scarf" girl in front of Carolyn Arnold is JUDY JOHNSON! But that is a little tentative. However, it is the only 3/4 length coat i've found a very petite woman wearing in this group. So i'm pretty certain...

Robert,

I'm looking for Shelly and I only see one guy on the steps who is wearing a coat and tie. I'm talking about the guy behind Frazier.

But he seems to be wearing a hat, too, and looks kinda broad-shouldered. Was Bill Shelly known to wear a hat?

Do you think Shelley was already over on the "corner of the park" when this footage was taken, conferring with Gloria Calvery?

Or already inside, calling his wife?

--Tommy

Regarding your belief that Lovelady , in the gif, can be seen rising up from a sitting position on the steps, I just remembered that in Wiegman and Altgens 6 we can see Lovelady standing on the steps just to the left of the center hand railing, watching the motorcade! Can you think of any reason he (or anyone) would have knelt or sat down on the steps after hearing what sounded (to many) like shots being fired as the President of the United States was passing by? Don't you think he would have been interested in seeing what was going on? I find it implausible that he would have sat down to eat his lunch at that point, so that's why I'm leaning towards interpreting your "rising Lovelady on the steps" as the back side and scarfed head (light colored scarf) of an older woman slowly climbing the steps and using the left handrail as she does so.

Just to show you how fair I am, I will allow you the possibility that Lovelady didn't kneel down or sit down at all, but that he climbed one step backwards in the gif. But wouldn't that have been rather awkward and obvious? I don't know. I can only imagine what that would look like. And why would he have moved from the center hand railing to the left edge of the steps? To have a worse view of what was goin' on down on Elm?

Hi Tommy!

Actually, I don't think Molina is wearing a hat - that's his very dark (but graying) hair and I also think he's wearing either sunglasses or those glasses that automatically darken - if they existed in '63. At any rate - dark glasses. As you know I believe he's the 2nd TLR cameraman on the steps - and in one of the blowups i made from the Towner film we see he's looking down in the viewfinder and shading his eyes w/ is right hand. (This IS done by TLR photographers sometimes in facing bright sun - i have an example of it). We can see his forehead and hairline - he has very dark hair and there's a white/silver rim all along the hairline and in the temple area even more. It's also a high hairline - ie: receding a bit. You can also see a bit of his left eyebrow ridge and orbit.... so using that as a landmark we can see how "high" his hairline is.

His described his physical traits in his extensive FBI file. He said in his description he was 5'7 1/2" & 164# and "stocky" and had a "fair" complexion, brown eyes, with a large mole in his LEFT eyebrow, and that his hair was "dark, graying, and balding in front" ("balding in front" could mean a wide variety of things - it could just mean "receding" or "thinning" which it appears his hairline is very high - i would say receding. But i don't see any circular-type shiny dome for example.). So what i see in that photo blowup jives with his description of himself. He was 39 at the time, if i remember correctly.

Also to me, in Altgens 6 he doesn't appear to have a suit and tie on - but a short sleeved white shirt (I'm sure a dress shirt). Actually, I just looked at it again to make sure... and his arms are crossed over his head and you can see his long sleeves are rolled or pushed up to just above elbow level - you can see the fabric bunched up there. He may have on a tie (probably given his job) - but i can't see one. That being said - it could be a light colored tie that's being bleached out by the bright sun he's standing in OR Mr Williams standing in front of him could be blocking the view of it. Hope this helps!

PS: Here he is today...well not "today" but in '88:

IMO that is NOT Shelley - irregardless of what WBF says about Shelly having on a white dress shirt and tie. Shelley is much skinnier and narrower in the shoulders. And he was filmed or photographed on 11/22 without AND with a black suit jacket on. Also Shelley did not have dark hair - he had blondish/reddish hair! (Obviously the guy in the blowup - who, IMO, must be Molina, decidedly does not have strawberry blonde hair! So that should help eliminate the man in the middle there right off the bat.) Remember, Buell also says Shelley was PM, when Shelley is 1/2 way to the RR yard with Lovelady! And when PM is to his right and Frazier SHELLEY (edited 9/16/15, 8:15pm; just reread this - sorry for the typo! ) in his black jacket and tie are to his left! Shelley cannot be TWO people at the same time! And that's the lie Buell got caught in by saying PM was Shelley.

Buell has also said there were no cameras on the steps, in fact, no cameras he could see anywhere around the steps(!), when there were at least 2 he was staring down on either side of him! He's lying and he knows he's lying! He has a lotta splainin' to do!

Edit : sorry keep thinking of things to say! You will also please note in that photo of Joe Molina he has MASSIVE ears! Check it out - wowza!! And notice the giant, dark - let's just call it "canal" - in the middle of it. Now look at the area on my TLR cameraman blowup where his left ear is. There is no exact outline of an "ear" one can see, but there is a huge light colored area there in the shape of an ear - and in the middle of that an equally huge dark area - just as we see with Molina's ears. There's no doubt it's Molina - plus geographically he's in the right area of the steps.

Tommy (& Robert, Clive et al),

Clive - first, thanks for the compliment on my findagrave memorial I made for her! I worked hard on that!

I'm just now reading this thread (I've been gone working on some major projects - down many rabbit holes! You'll see - fasten your seatbelts!

Tommy -- you are absolutely right about the woman hidden almost entirely behind and east of Alonzo! I blew up Altgens6 HUGE (and I do mean HUGE!) and looked where you said you could see a sliver of the other woman's face and hair there - it took a few seconds, but i found it! I could/can see some bushy dark blk hair and I even suddenly "saw" her left CAT EYE glasses frame sticking out!! I didn't see it until I pulled up her wedding announcement photo and put it up there to compare - then suddenly BAMMM!! Do you see it?! It has to be her! Great work on that - I never saw it before!

Robert - Those women are crammed in there like sardines by Millican, especially. We can see her better from the backside in Zapruder's view - but the reason we can't see her in Altgens is because of the extreme foreshortening of his lens - plus she must be standing back a bit, obviously. But she is there we can just catch a sliver, of her as Tommy pointed out. I do agree with your the point about the camera seeming to have a "slimming" effect on Baker - and if it made him look slimmer, it would make her look slimmer too (if we could all be so lucky!). Good catch!

Tommy -- As for earlier mentions in this thread of her in the graphics (mis)labeled "Calvary" (sic) with Reed and Hicks and calling her "dark complected".......I'm sorry, but that woman, whomever she is, is a relatively dark-skinned, middle-aged African-American woman! Calling her "dark-complected" (and not saying she's African-American) makes it sound like she's Mexican or Sicilian - or John Boehner drowning in his bottle of QT! LOL! (Actually, she looks a lot like the 60's singer Nancy Wilson, remember her?) There is no way that that middle-aged, black woman labeled "Calvary" [sic] is the actual 20 year old Gloria Jean Little Calvery - a pastey white woman!! You yourself, dug up her yearbook photos. She's pretty darned pale! I understand there's a wide continuum of "race" but, IMO, there's no way anyone could ever mistake her for a "dark-complected" Caucasian.

And like someone here said, are we even sure that "Reed" and "Hicks" ARE Reed and Hicks?? The person that made that graphic has had us thinking Gloria Calvery was a middleaged black woman, rather than a white 20 year old white woman - for years now!

Robert - I think it was you that said you didn't think she would move wander off to another place. Well, that very well could have happened! Maybe she did at first stand with Reed and Hicks (if that's even them) but then thought she'd get a better view if she was up by the Woodward group? Maybe she saw someone up there she knew and decided to move? It has happened before! Remember, it was Judy Johnson in the real "Truly group" who mentioned 2 ladies were with her in that lineup whom no one else in that group mentioned. It turns out, yes, they originally went out and stood in the Truly "line" but then either got bored or saw their other friends and went down near the Stemmons sign to watch the motorcade with them. Judy Johnson apparently didn't even realize they left. Ah... here it is, it was Judy Johnson! (I made a long write up of who was standing with whom in that group - and posted it in the Truly thread, which is how I discovered her error. Did you see that?):

"On November 22, 1963 I left my office, Room 200, Texas School
Book Depository Building, about 12 :15pm to go outside the building
to watch the President's Motorcade pass which was to pass along Elm
Street in front of the building. I was with Miss Jeannie Holt*, 2521
Pleasant Drive, Dallas, Texas, and Miss Stella Jacob*.....
We walked to the southwest corner of Elm and Houston
Streets and were joined by Mrs. Bonnie Richey...
Mrs. Carolyn Arnold...and Mrs. Betty Dragoo....
I was standing at this point on the sidewalk near
the edge of Elm Street at the time President John F. Kennedy was
shot."

Johnson is the only one in the Truly group who mentions Holt and Jacob being with them out by Elm in front of the TSBD. I found that Holt, Jacob and another woman Sharon Nelson (nee Simmons) were standing together on the sidewalk down near the Stemmon's sign, on the north side of Elm - they corroborated each other's statements about being together and not with the Truly Trio. I imagine in all the excitement - and the long line - they just were not even been missed by Johnson.

Now as for the findagrave memorial I made for her, and it saying Molina encountered her 20-30 secs. afterward in the lobby - that was MY ESTIMATE on it after reading Molina's testimony and from seeing the way she was booking it right behind Baker. (And Baker's time - if it's to be believed, that he ran up the steps and in the front door (which I tend to believe) is that he got to the steps about 15-20 secs. after the last shot. So, it was my estimate - that if she followed him up the steps and into the lobby she was ~10-15 feet behind him (it looked like in Darnell) so she probably got to the lobby in 20-30 seconds. And I had to write up a synopsis to post on findagrave - basically for the public who really don't care about or account for every little second of how this went down! So I estimated the best I could. Furthermore, I don't think 20-30 seconds is that far off the mark, if we assume she ran up the steps rt behind Baker and/or Truly (and if we assume Baker did run up the steps - which I do).

Now that estimate of mine of her being in the lobby and Molina seeing her come in ~ 20-30 seconds after the shots, was probably compounded by Molina's testimony where he said:

Mr. BALL. Did you see Mr. Truly go into the building?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Where were you when you saw him go into the building?
Mr. MOLINA. I was right in the entrance.
Mr. BALL. Did you see a police officer with him?
Mr. MOLINA. I didn't see a police officer. I don't recall seeing a police officer but I did see him go inside. [granted he didn't see Baker enter]
Mr. BALL. Did you see a white-helmeted police officer any time there in the entrance?
Mr. MOLINA. Well, of course, there might have been one after they secured the building, you know.
Mr. BALL. No, I mean when Truly went in; did you see Truly actually go into the building?
Mr. MOLINA. I saw him go in.
Mr. BALL. Where were you standing?
Mr. MOLINA. Right at the front door; right at the front door.
Mr. BALL. Outside the front door?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes, outside the front door I was standing; the door was right behind me.
Mr. BALL. Were you standing on the steps?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes, on the uppermost step.
Mr. BALL. You actually saw Truly go
Mr. MOLINA. Yeah.
Mr. BALL. You were still standing there?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes.
Mr. BALL. How long was it after you heard the shots?
Mr. MOLINA. Oh, I would venture to say maybe 20 or 30 seconds afterwards. [by this I assumed he then went in the lobby after that 20-30 secs]
Mr. BALL. Had somebody come up and said the President was shot before
you saw Truly go in?
Mr. MOLINA. No.
Mr. BALL. Do you know a girl named Gloria Calvary?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Did Gloria come up?
Ms.. MOLINA. Yes, she came. I was in the lobby standing there and she came in with this other girl. [if Truly came in 20-30 secs after the shots as Molina says above, and we know Calvery was not far behind him - or Baker and him - and Molina says he SAW her "come in" - then I assumed, pretty logically I think, that Molina had to have followed Truly in, and he was then almost immediately followed in by Calvery. He says he saw her come in so he had to have gone in just after Truly and before her. Does that make sense? ]
Mr. BALL. What did she say?
Mr. MOLINA. She said "Oh, my God, Joe, he's been shot." They were both horrified. I said "Are you sure he was shot?" She said "Oh, Joe ,I'm sure. I saw his hair fly up and I'm sure he was shot" something to that extent.

Ok so, point well taken that we don't know exactly when he was in the lobby, but she being hot on Baker's heels she had to have been in the lobby too maybe 5-10 sec later - where Molina said he saw her "come in" . (I'm aware you don't believe Baker even went up the steps then...)

As for the "other girl" he said she was "with" - that could've been Molina's assumption. She could have been any woman who came up the steps around that same time as Gloria and entered "with her". We see several women going up the steps in Darnell it could easily have been one of them. As I think it was Tommy pointed out, it doesn't mean they had to be pals or have run together from down near the Stemmons sign. We know that didn't happen - we only see one woman running behind Baker. And Molina goes on to say both of them were horrified, as if they shared the moment "together". They may have both been horrified - who wouldn't be - but that doesn't mean they were standing next to each other when JFK was shot - it was a collective horror.

As for Molina's story about running down to the grassy hill - to hear conversations. It seems I read somewhere else that he did head that way (toward the island? it's not clear where this little grassy hill area was) but didn't go far or stay long and turned around and came back. In fact, if I remember correctly it was Vickie Adams who testified she encountered him out front of the TSBD as she and Sandra came back around to the front of the bldg. (there journey was several minutes I think). So, my guess is he's confused the story in his mind or in the telling of it to the WC. I think he probably went in the lobby behind Baker and Truly, FIRST, where he saw Calvery who came in, logically, behind him. Then he must've decided to go out by the street or "grassy hill" - wherever that is - to see if he could learn anything else. That would jive with maybe 2 or 3 or 4 minutes after the shots based upon Vickie's timetable of running into him "out front". I find her to be a very trustworthy witness.

As for Shelley & Lovelady running down the Elm Extension - yes, I believe that is them in that animated gif. I think Gerda made that didn't she? She does great work. I agree with Tommy, it looks like them to me and it's existence catches them in their WC lie that they stayed on the front steps for 3 minutes - impossible! They are not seen there in Darnell! But Lovelady was seen there a little earlier in Wiegman (we don't see Shelley on the steps in Wiegman, IMO, because he's on the landing in the dark - Lovelady is a step or two down in the sun. Their whole "3 minute" fabrication was to make it look like Vickie and Sandra came down much later possibly AFTER Oswald! And if you recall in Shelley's very, very first statement - a Sheriff's Affidavit (?), he said he went inside to call his wife! From then on - like w/ Baker and Truly - it was one changing story after another! All to pin Oswald in the sniper's nest and the 2nd floor lunchroom (didn't happen!)

So, yes, I did make the (I think, logical) assumption that Molina was in the lobby ~20-30 secs after the shots and saw Gloria "come in" hot on Baker's heels maybe 5-10 seconds behind him. I can't imagine she would be running like a banjee after him only to stop when she reached the bottom step! And as for her route to the steps...it appears she was running down the Elm Ext. so, IMO, if that's her on Elm next Alonzo, she must've cut up the little hill and gone over that low wall and run down the Extension - the hypotenuse of the right triangle - not the longer Elm St sidewalk route.

Regardless, of how it went down second by second, there was no ill intent to mislead anyone nor any conspiratorial deviousness involved in my writing up her findagrave post! For godsakes - I'm NOT a LNer! And I remember telling you guys *I* wrote it up - I was quite happy with my hard work - and that I had used some of the photos you guys had found of her found before I even joined that thread (and I also used photos I found of her grave marker and wedding announcement) to make her memorial. So yes, that's my handiwork.

Later! Time for lunch and finishing and posting my little project...

Why do you guys waste your time on this clown? If we all ignored him, he would be ranting in an empty room...

Bravo! Seriously, there needs to be a block button on these toxic posters! It's just this sort of sarcastic bickering that drives good researchers and newbies away from forums like this. Any chance that can be developed and added to the system, Mr. Simkin? If you won't ban people like this, we need to have a way to personally block them for our own sanity!

Greg,

I'm not sure if V.T. Lee, the head of the NY chapter of FPCC was African-American, but he succeeded Richard Thomas Gibson, who was black, to become the last national leader of the FPCC.

Gibson was a journalist who expatriated to Europe (Switzerland and London) - i think he had worked for CBS in S.F. Funny, i just heard about him for the first time yesterday when i came across Nov or Dec '63 CIA files on him the HSCA had finally gotten released. At the time of the assassination the CIA was spying on him in Switzerland, and reportedly he told a friend that Oswald was "one of us" (i assume he meant a communist and/or an FPCC member - of course Gibson could not have known (or could he?) that LHO started his own little "chapter" in N.O. that consisted of just himself and "Hidell").

What amazed me about this story, and got me digging on him yesterday, was that the CIA memo said Gibson had corresponded with Oswald 2 years prior - ie: 1961, when he, obviously, was in Russia! I had never heard about this before! Gibson went on to tell this friend that Oswald "was crazy" (ie: obviously distancing himself and the FPCC from "crazy" Oswald) and that as a result he had burnt all their letters! Wowza!! Can you imagine what a treasure trove that would have been to read?!! It's really too bad he burned them! This great article says he was willing to turn against the FPCC for money and be recruited by the CIA, but the CIA rejected him - i think - it's a little blurry, and i think that's the point. Did he or did he not become a CIA asset?

At any rate that set me off down a rabbit hole doing genealogical research on him to see if he was still alive etc...and looking for a photo of him. Turns out he was born in L.A in '31 and died in S.F. in 2003 at age 72. So, he obviously repatriated at some point. I found US Public Records showing he lived in Berkeley and Oakland in the '90's and early 2000s. Still trying to find a photo of him. A black CBS reporter back then was pretty rare bird! Surely there's a photo of him somewhere...I have some vague recollection of seeing a black reporter in old news clips (or from my actual memories of the early '60s when i was just a young child) - it may be him i'm or it may be another pioneering black journalist from the late 60's/early 70's i'm recalling. I did find his papers are at George Washington University in D.C.

e

Linda:

Not wishing for a moment to "throw cold water" on your research, but I would draw your attention to the identification of the three men in the foreground of Towner 2, as described on the Sixth Floor Museum site: "In the foreground are WFAA radio employees Pierce Allman (left) and Terry Ford (right). Amateur photographer Hugh Betzner stands in front of them."

Chris

Hi Chris,

You mean the "esteemed" 6th Floor Museum of Assassination Disinformation, previously run by Gary Mack?! I don't buy much of what they sell, and they are absolutely WRONG about 2 of those ID's, and need to correct the historical record (not that I hold out much hope of ever correcting them about anything).

The blondish guy on the right I can buy as Terrence Ford - since we can see Allman and Ford in the clearer Dorman frames in the Unger Gallery standing together near the west corner of the reflecting pool. One is blondish and the other has dark hair (and we know Allman had dk. brown hair). I just googled Ford, and he died in 2013. His obit has a nice photo of him - his body habitus and hair look almost identical to what we see in '63 in Towner in the guy on the right. So, i'll buy that the blondish guy is Terrence Ford. However, I absolutely don't buy their stories about the other 2 guys.

And btw, I was not claiming that the guy on the right was Fischer - I said the dark haired-heftier guy was likely Fischer. (Additionally, the dark haired guy on the left is way too hefty to be the petite Pierce Allman! Allman also had a crew cut, which LHO ID'd him by in the lobby. Moreover, Allman was interviewed on local network tv on the 22nd (I've see the video online) and one can see he's a small guy with a definite flat-top - he looks nothing like the meso-endomorph, round-headed guy on the left in Towner2! He instead has the hair color and body habitus of Ronald Fischer.

Here's a much better candidate for Pierce Allman - this little guy with a flat-top in Willis 6.

Allman and Ford can be seen in many of these Dorman frames from ~285 on: http://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/displayimage.php?pid=5201&fullsize=1

And most obviously, the 6th floor "Museum" errors pathetically in claiming the guy in the front in the white short-sleeved shirt is Betzner. Are they serious?! That is Bob Edwards - NOT Betzner! - I have absolutely NO doubt about that! Why? Because Betzner can be clearly seen in numerous Dorman stills near the corner of Elm&Houston near the eastern corner of the reflecting pool, with camera up to his eye (he's been ID'd in those stills on the Unger site).

He's clearly NOT wearing a short-sleeved white shirt! He's wearing pants and a long sleeved jacket (or a long sleeved shirt - but it looks baggy more like a light jacket) and both are light sand colored.

Betzner is in many of these Dorman frames w/ camera to eye http://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/displayimage.php?pid=5200&fullsize=1

Again in the Dorman stills we can see that during and/or after the shots Betzner has moved down the sidewalk to near the west corner of the reflecting pool. We can see him in many frames beginning with D-347 thru D-355 - just to the right of the stoplight arm where he has paused again to take photos; then he disappears out of frame. Allman and Ford are also seen in many of these frames.: http://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/displayimage.php?pid=5202&fullsize=1

Furthermore, as I pointed out in my graphic - if one blows it up and studies it, one can see the nape of his neck and around his ears is closely buzzed (like Edwards' in the video clip of him telling the Deputy "And that's where the man was"). And at the FRONT of his head one can see that little "flip" of hair that we can also see he has in his photo in the Sheriff's office and in the frames from the video with the Deputy.

I'll believe my own eyes and my own work before I believe that of the 6th floor museum - any day.

Yeah MAL, hey Mal! You saw a shooter in that window remember? Where you going?

Does seem a little reluctant to leave perhaps but only films the knoll, anyway.

Screen grab not the best but in the footage it looks like the guy in the middle is being physically assisted down the embankment rather than taken away for questioning.

Partially blind or perhaps hit his head jumping over the fence?

One on the right resembles a lot attendant with that hat.

The black guy wearing the beanie on the right can be seen at 0:58 in the Robert Hughes film,

running across Elm Street from the "infield grass" to the Grassy Knoll area. He was "captured" in several still photographs taken of the crowd on the Grassy Knoll after that, and even in the parking lot if I remember correctly. It wouldn't surprised me if the guy in the middle "being assisted down the slope" was his friend.

Edit: On second thought, I think you're right about the guy-on-the-right's looking like a "parking lot attendant." Different guy altogether from the guy wearing the beanie. My bad.

Or could he be TSBD "porter" Eddie Piper???

from the great ROKC website:

http://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t34-was-eddie-piper-on-the-6th-floor

--Tommy :suny

There was a RR Yard Pkg Lot Attendent named Oscar McVey, who was on the sidewalk on the N. side of Elm down by the TU somewhere. I just reread his sole FBI statement hoping it would say what race he was...but it doesn't mention it. That being said - it seems this was a common job for black men back then. So maybe McVey is the black guy helping the chap down the GN? He was in the general area.

Thanks Linda!

The Oscar McVey you refer to was probably 73 year old Oscar S. McVey, or his 33 year old son, Oscar Kenneth McVey.

http://www.myheritage.com/names/oscar_mcvey

Keep up the good work!

But you might want to consider editing what you wrote about Gloria Calvery on FindaGrave. To keep Bobby Prudhomme happy.

--Tommy

You're welcome! And thanks Tommy, for digging up that McVey info on My Heritage! I see he was Caucasian so there goes that theory of him being the black pkg lot attendant in that Cook sequence!

Just noticed that Richard called it on Edwards on the previous page.

Also, man being escorted above could pass for a hobo with those pants.

Kicked off a train perhaps and still a bit "disorientated"?

Tommy, you gave me a good laugh but I read it again and now think you were actually being serious.

Gloria who?

Sorry quite late here now, ttfn/

Naw, I was just kidding. Get some rest.

By the way, the title of this thread is "Heavy Set, Middle-Aged Man Put In Police Car...".

Shouldn't we start a new thread called "Parking Lot Attendant's Friend Arrested On Grassy Knoll!" or "Finally Identified! -- Witness Robert Edwin Edwards!" ?

--Tommy

Hi Tommy! As you've probably noticed i've been gone for a couple of weeks or so and have been busy ferretting out wabbits down those wabbit holes!!! I've been doing geneaological research and digging through HS and College yearbooks online etc...snipping photos and making collages/graphics like crazy.

I'm happy to say i've now ID'd several more witnesses, including one that was the most serindipitious discovery i've made in my entire life! (I won't post it here and get us off even more off track - she needs her own page - but I'll just say that I've identified the "Mystery Camerawoman" in the solid dress, who was seen taking photos around the TSBD!) As i said, that discovery was totally serindipitious as i was researching KRLD's Steve Pieringer & Joe Scott - specifically, college yearbook photos for Joe Scott - to add to his findagrave page i set up for him. Please read - i did a lot of work on it - and leave him some flowers. He died in 1965 at only 33!

One of people i ID'd was Bob Edwards (and Ronald Fischer, among others). In fact, that is why i got back on this thread tonight to triumphantly post my Edwards and Fischer collages! But, alas, I see someone already id'd him and beat me too it a few days after i was last on here! :'( However, I'm going to post what i have for Edwards anyway since there are some additional photos and information i've put together - I also ID'd them in Towner2 as well as Dorman (adjacent to the stoplight on the SW corner of Elm&Houston).

Some people I've ID'd: Lloyd Viles, Bonnie Richie (she's the "grey jumper girl" in the "Truly group" and in Cook-Cooper hanging out with Carolyn Arnold on the SE corner of the TSBD - and btw, in Skaggs 12 we can see it's actually a "green" jumper), Fisher & Edwards, Pieringer & Scott, and A.J. L'Hoste.

Speaking of the "Heavy Set, Middle-Aged Man Put In Police Car..."

I've also spotted Pieringer & Scott in Willis 10 - in very close proximity to the suspect being arrested - Pieringer is literally only inches away! (And, IMO, that photo may have been altered to cover up Scott filming the scene - there's a really weird - i don't even know how to describe it - "carrot-like" - object sticking up covering his head - and some weird "white-out" around it in his head area where the camera would normally be located. And in line with and above the point of this object - the decorative blocks on the TSBD are smeared - while the surrounding blocks are clear. You have to blow it up huge to see this. (It was probably altered in the pre-digital age, long before the culprits ever dreamed of the internet or personal computers or the public's ability to study such details!)

Prior to Willis 10, and after Scott returned to the studio, leaving Pieringer, Sanderson & Underwood at the Depository, it was Pieringer that was filming. But, in Willis 10 we can see he's not filming - even though there's a huge breaking news event in his arms reach! I wager, Scott was filming, but not only has their film vanished, so has proof that they were filming this crucial arrest scene. There's something very fishy about that photo.

I've also been going thru "The Lost JFK Tapes" today (got it on Netflix) and have found Steve Pieringer in numerous sequences! I'm very zeroed in on looking for his black hat and rotund figure, and i'm finding him everywhere in that film! Usually, very fleetingly, but he's there. There's obvious evidence that he was filming - a lot. Just as much as any of the other cameramen whose names roll off everyone's tongues. Why have Pieringer & Scott been so forgotten? Their film vanished and and their very existence for all intents and purposes vanished too. I find their "nonexistence" suspect. I have a queasy feeling about that, and believe it has to do with their being some of the earliest photographer's there - and in the very middle of the Willis10 arrest scene.

Scott took their footage back to KRLD to process & edit to get it on air - so he is rarely found in photos or film from there - and then only in the first 1/2 hr or so before he rushed back to the studio. But what haunts me now is knowing how young they both were when they died and then finding them in Willis 10 watching the arrest of the middle-aged, slightly husky suspect taken out of the TSBD. It makes me wonder - did they see too much?

**

I've also found some very intriguing information about "step-mates" Madie Reese & Ruth Dean, and Avery Davis & Judy McCully, that makes me wonder if they were part of a group on the steps who were strategically located there just in case Oswald did come out on the steps - so they could deny that he did. We know what Reese looks like, but i couldn't find photos of the others unfortunately.

Watching the Lost Tapes, I've also found 2 cameramen i've never seen before. One is wearing a cardigan and has bushy/curly hair, the other looks to have a big horseshoe mustache. They're both seen filming Florer opposite Pieringer who is behind Florer filming the scene.

**

Here are my Edwards & Fischer graphics. I noticed the fold of Edward's collar is a give away too:

.

(sorry some of the photos are blurry - I'm not a paying member of e-yearbooks. So that's where the blurry ones are from.)

BTW... Roland Fischer accompanied Bob Edwards to the Sheriff's office to to give their affidavits. I have a hunch he's probably sitting right there next to Bob Edwards talking to him! In fact, the disembodied hand and watch you see resting on that person's knee to the right of Bob is probably his. He had on a suit so It makes sense he might have on a long sleeved dress shirt. Unfortunately, I cropped that photo from somewhere long ago, and saved it. If anyone knows where I can find the film clip or photo it originally came from that would be GREAT! Then we could hopefully see if that's Roland Fischer sitting there.

Mr. Fischer....

Dorman...

Yeah MAL, hey Mal! You saw a shooter in that window remember? Where you going?

Does seem a little reluctant to leave perhaps but only films the knoll, anyway.

Screen grab not the best but in the footage it looks like the guy in the middle is being physically assisted down the embankment rather than taken away for questioning.

Partially blind or perhaps hit his head jumping over the fence?

One on the right resembles a lot attendant with that hat.

The black guy wearing the beanie on the right can be seen at 0:58 in the Robert Hughes film,

running across Elm Street from the "infield grass" to the Grassy Knoll area. He was "captured" in several still photographs taken of the crowd on the Grassy Knoll after that, and even in the parking lot if I remember correctly. It wouldn't surprised me if the guy in the middle "being assisted down the slope" was his friend.

Edit: On second thought, I think you're right about the guy-on-the-right's looking like a "parking lot attendant." Different guy altogether from the guy wearing the beanie. My bad.

Or could he be TSBD "porter" Eddie Piper???

from the great ROKC website:

http://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t34-was-eddie-piper-on-the-6th-floor

--Tommy :suny

There was a RR Yard Pkg Lot Attendent named Oscar McVey, who was on the sidewalk on the N. side of Elm down by the TU somewhere. I just reread his sole FBI statement hoping it would say what race he was...but it doesn't mention it. That being said - it seems this was a common job for black men back then. So maybe McVey is the black guy helping the chap down the GN? He was in the general area.

Replying to 3 of you here to catch up! ....

Clive - thank you so much for posting that crystal clear Couch animated gif - you're rt. it looks like Gerda's handiwork! She does incredible work!

Tommy - I didn't realize James Richards hasn't been here in a long time. I hope he's ok!

Martin - Sorry this was confusing...I was going thru this thread back in August and came across James' post from 2013 about there possibly being a "citizen's arrest" on the knoll - someone had posted the still (or one similar to it) that Clive posted just above, with the African-American man helping another man down the hill. It was posited back then that this might have been a "citizens arrest". I had never seen that footage before, so I asked about it and that's how this got brought up. I'm really happy to have a clear copy (thanks to Clive posting, probably, Gerda's anim. gif.). I agree it's likely he's helping the guy down the hill rather than arresting him. With all those people watching, I think we would have heard something about it before now had it actually been an arrest.

And WOW!!!!!!!!!! I am so impressed with your find (or your friend's find) on that heavy-set older guy in the RR yard! I have NEVER noticed him before!!! That s an incredible find! I think you are onto something big! What I find curious about this guy is that he's off by himself - sort of "nonchalantly" strolling around. Not talking to anyone - trying to act a little TOO nonchalant, IMO, compared to everyone else. I think psychologically this is a give away! I've felt the same way about "tan jacket man" in the Hughes RR yard sequence. He is off by himself trying not to bump into anyone or talk to anyone - except he does make furtive eye contact with the "hatless cop" and the "trench coat man" whom he also gives a little nod to before wheeling around to leave. His behavior is very suspect. Another thing is, back in '63 there were very few fat young or middle-aged people (maybe some elderly) - today it's epidemic. So to find this "older" (ie middle-aged) obese man - such an oddity in 1963 - in the RR yard right where Bowers had said - well, when I saw him it gave me chills!

Now... I wonder what happened to his collaborator, "plaid jacket/shirt man"? I've long wondered about this guy in a bold plaid jacket, who appears to be coming from behind the TSBD. He always reminded me of a cleaned up Emilio Santana. He's seen for several stills in a row so keep clicking. I made a comparison once and was pretty convinced myself that it could be him shaved, with his hair trimmed short, and nicely and dressed up. I've seen no one in the RR yard in a plaid jacket - so my thought is he went behind the TSBD and rounded it - appearing there in Cook and headed south for a get away car. Like "tan jacket man" and "heavy set man" - his behavior is suspect, IMO, since he also avoids contact with people including eye contact. But he's definitely going somewhere.

Speaking of the Railyard...and where "plaid jacket man" could have gone... did anyone ever notice there's a truck camper parked out in the north end of the pkg lot? I just noticed it for the first time the other day (sorry if this is old news for people) - but as soon as I saw it I wondered if it could have been used as a hiding place.

I have always wondered what is going on in the top left of this frame. It seems to have to attention of several of the other people standing around.

I've never seen that photo before either! Great find! It does grab my attention too. Do you know who it's by? It appears to be a still/screen capture from a film. Do you know who took the photo - or who filmed it and/or which video it came from so i can (hopefully) see it in context with the rest of the film online to get an idea of when it was taken etc...Thanks, James!

Now here are 2 more photos I found Lupe in by herself - both by Allen. I've also found her wandering around toward the Island after the shots in Darnell (just as she described in her statements, doing briefly), but I haven't had time to make a graphic of it. But if you want just look thru the Darnell stills. She's nearer the foreground you can't miss her in that distinctive floral print coat! Once you see her in one you see her all over the place!

And here's the 2nd one:

Now on to the Lloyd Viles Trio!....

In reading employees FBI Statements etc...I accidently came across 2 ladies that sounded like from their statements that they were possibly standing together that day in the Truly group. I couldn't be sure exactly where they were standing from their descriptions until I did further research and located them there in the line.

Lupe "Lucy" (Maciel) Whitaker & Patricia Ann Lawrence (now Donaldson) went shopping together at Sangers-Harris before the motorcade arrived. Upon their return they took up positions next to each other in the "Truly group" - in the front line on the north side of Elm in front of the Texas School Book Depository and Steps. There is one unknown lady in black that separates them from Virgie Rackley Baker, and Lupe is standing right next to the "Cowboy Hat Man". Lucy is wearing a very distinctively bold, floral coat, so it makes it easy to find her in Wiegman, Darnell and other photos - like Allen for example.

So... I've been busy the last 2 days tracking down photos of them and trying to place them in the group, and can now say I've located Patricia Ann Lawrence (now Donaldson) & Lupe "Lucy" Whitaker. Donaldson recently was in JFK: The Lost Bullet so it was easy to find recent photos of her. But Lupe took some genealogical research. I finally found her maiden name "Maciel" - I figured she was Hispanic because of her given name "Lupe". From there I was able to find HS yearbook photos of her (I'm not a paying member of e-yearbooks or classmates.com so they are blurry - but good enough. So I apologize for the quality of the photos (If anyone here is a member - please go snag some clear ones of Lupe for us! I made some graphics comparisons. Lupe is standing right next to the "Cowboy Hat Man".

I've also worked on the little McGraw-Hill trio across Elm St. by the west edge of the reflecting pool: Lloyd Viles, Dolores Kounas & Roberta Parker. I was able to find an obit photo of him. No photos of them yet...but I've been busy! I'll post them in another post. In fact, I'm sure i'll have to break this one up into several parts due to the size limits on graphics imposed.

First here's the general layout of where they are in Wiegman:



Here's a closeup of the two sniped from Wiegman with comparison photos of Lupe from her HS Yearbook:


And here's Patricia Ann Lawrence (Donaldson) compared to Wiegman. Her face was very washed out since she has such pale skin and it was in the bright noonday sun (plus, she's turned to the side, so that didn't help) - so, I had to put it in a photo editor and adjust the brightness, contrast, shadows etc. to get some features to stand out - this was the best I could get it. Maybe, like Lupe we can now find her in other better photos around the TSBD:

Well...let me see if these 3 will load.

(Edited 9/24/15 6:01pm to replace above graphic. I had noticed I had written her surname as "Donnally" instead of "Donaldson" on the graphic. I fixed it and re-uploaded it).

Linda spotted Victoria Adams??

Yes, I did. About a year ago I ID'd both Vickie & Sandra Styles and posted my work on a JFK assassination FB group.

I just got a pvt message about this from someone so I took the time to upload my Vickie & Sandy photos to Imgur so I could post them here. I found Vickie Adams in those Cook-Cooper stills I posted here (with Jeraldean Reid and Carolyn Arnold), as well as Adams & Styles both in Willis 8 in front of the TSBD, and Styles alone in Willis 15 - near the SE corner of the TSBD near where the 3 wheel motorcycles were parked. She had said in her statements somewhere that she could hear the reports coming over the motorcycle radios there. Sure enough there she was. In the color photos you can see Vickie's dress is bright acqua with a black collar and Sandra's dress has a tiny floral print between vertical blue stripes. I also may have found Vickie in her bright aqua dress and curly blondish hair in the Huges film (though she has her back to the camera so I can't be 100% positive). As for the other photos I am 100% positive it's them.

Here is my Imgur Vickie & Sandy photo file which has close up comparisons for all the photos/stills I found them in.

They are both are in Willis 8, for example:

Tommy said:

She does kinda look like Vicki.

Yes she does! Because she is!

NB: how her hair line has a little "peak" on her right side (our left) in all her photos.

I know, Linda, but I gotta show you a little "resistance" from time to time so the others won't figure out that we're c-o-l-l-u-d-i-n-g.

Keep up the excellent work, and please don't hesitate to give me everlasting credit for finding Truly standing to the right of (your) Virgie Baker, (somebody else's) Jeraldean Reid, and (your) Carolyn Arnold in Wiegman!

Thank you for finding Vicki Adams and Sarah Styles, too!

All of them are great finds!

--Tommy

PS Is that helmeted Marion Baker walking down the steps on the far left?

Thank you, Tommy!!!! And LOL! You just cracked me up with the "c-o-l-l-u-d-I-n-g" comment!!! And of course, I give you absolute, total, everlasting credit for finding the Real Roy_^tm Truly!! That was the find of the century! Congrats! And of course credit goes to whomever found Jeraldean Reid etc... And damn! You're right! I didn't see that little white helmet over there on the far left of Willis 8!!! Sure looks like Marrion Baker, exiting stage left, to me!

Now I'm in the process of trying to track down the other ladies in the "group" - I'm working on Betty Dragoo at the moment. Just found her dob (Mar 13, 1937) and full name: Betty Jean Powers Dragoo Young - hoping with that info I can track down an old photo now - or even a recent one, so I can find her in the Truly lineup on Elm. According to Intellius she's 78 and living in Wortham, Tx. Anybody know what she or any of the others like Judy Johnson or Bonnie Richey look like? Also in reading tonight I came upon two ladies I'd not been familiar with before who were hanging out together somewhere in the "line up" along the N side of Elm in front of the TSBD: Patricia Ann Lawrence (now Donaldson) & Lupe (aka Lucy) Whitaker.

Interestingly, Lawrence said they were only ~7 feet from the corner of Houston & Elm and the Limo was right in front of her when JFK turned to wave and she heard the first shot. As she describes it seems to have also been the early "missed shot" - however, she didn't describe it hitting anywhere on the pavement (as Virgie Rackley Baker did) or hitting JFK, I'm convinced there was this very early missed shot which is why the Z film and the other films have those key frames either totally "disappeared" or "burnt up". Vickie Adams also describes seeing the first shot just after the limo turned the corner onto Elm and was right in front of their 4th flr window just as JFK turned to wave after someone had called his name out. I've noticed several witnesses have described the location of the limo and JFK turning and waving exactly the same way for that first missed shot - that speaks volumes - and I have no doubt it happened! Too many unrelated people with the same story. I read Lawrence/Donaldson made an appearance in "JFK: The Lost Bullet" and after reading that I did recall seeing her in that video. I just looked her photo up and here she is (with Lost Bullet slimebag, Max Holland)...with this maybe I /we can locate her in the "lineup"!

I've also come across some very, very intriguing information about Madie Reese and her step companion, Ruth Hilliard Dean... but i'll save that for another day....

You keep up the good work too, Tommy!

Excellent work...IMHO this and the Training Camp thread (and the short shot thread when it stays on track) are a credit to the forum are great examples of what peer research can accomplish...well done!

Thank you, Larry! That makes my day! It's my B-day (or it was on the 20th) so it's all the more reason to celebrate!

Linda spotted Victoria Adams??

Yes, I did. About a year ago I ID'd both Vickie & Sandra Styles and posted my work on a JFK assassination FB group.

I just got a pvt message about this from someone so I took the time to upload my Vickie & Sandy photos to Imgur so I could post them here. I found Vickie Adams in those Cook-Cooper stills I posted here (with Jeraldean Reid and Carolyn Arnold), as well as Adams & Styles both in Willis 8 in front of the TSBD, and Styles alone in Willis 15 - near the SE corner of the TSBD near where the 3 wheel motorcycles were parked. She had said in her statements somewhere that she could hear the reports coming over the motorcycle radios there. Sure enough there she was. In the color photos you can see Vickie's dress is bright acqua with a black collar and Sandra's dress has a tiny floral print between vertical blue stripes. I also may have found Vickie in her bright aqua dress and curly blondish hair in the Huges film (though she has her back to the camera so I can't be 100% positive). As for the other photos I am 100% positive it's them.

Here is my Imgur Vickie & Sandy photo file which has close up comparisons for all the photos/stills I found them in.

They are both are in Willis 8, for example:

Tommy said:

She does kinda look like Vicki.

Yes she does! Because she is!

NB: how her hair line has a little "peak" on her right side (our left) in all her photos.

Robert Prudhomme said:

Hi Linda

Yes, I saw the FBI report on Ms. Sanders just a few weeks ago. It certainly would seem to place Baker sprinting up the stairs, just when he claims to have done but, there is one thing we should keep in mind when reading it.

While it is referred to as "her" FBI report of 24/11/63, there is a very good chance she never saw or signed this report, or even knew of its existence. It is a typical FBI report, written in the third person, not a real statement at all and, given the past experience with FBI "evidence" in this case, likely full of fabrications.

I also find it suspect due to its date (Nov. 24) and the fact it is the only piece of corroborating evidence that backs up Baker's and Truly's story. I know many will say Shelley and Lovelady agree with Baker's story but, if you look at their testimony, they claim to have remained on the steps 3-4 minutes, then had a brief conversation with Gloria Calvery and only then proceeded down the Elm St. extension where, 25 steps away from the TSBD steps, they looked back to see Truly and Baker ascending the steps.

Someone, or a whole lot of someones, is clearly not telling the truth here.

Hi Robert,

Yes, that's a good point about it being an unsigned "report". I agree, they can't always be trusted and the FBI has been caught in many lies; but given that, if it were being made up by the FBI you'd think they would complete the "official narrative" while they were at it by having Truly, not Campbell following hot on the heels of Baker. Instead they throw in a whole new twist - Campbell! That to me gives it some veracity - even though it's only electronically signed and there are no direct quotes from her.

And finally, I went searching for her in Darnell - after the group split up. We know Truly and Campbell are back up by the steps by that point. And we can see the cowboy-hat-man and some of the other ladies from the group are also wandering back in that direction, including Carolyn's "buddy" in the gray jumper. But where was Carolyn? Then I spotted her! She's ON the steps - on what appears to be the easternmost side of the lower 1st, 2nd or 3rd step. She's looking westward - as if she's positioned herself there, a couple of steps up, in order to get a better view of what's happening down Elm street. She's turned sideways - and while it's not a clear picture of her face, as in Cook-Cooper, I'm guessing it's her based upon her hair color & style, color & style of her dress, short sleeves & thin arms, and the formfitting dress revealing her pregnant torso outline:

Notice she is catty-corner - just a few feet, and a few people away - from PM/LHO! So, given this, I now surmise, that Carolyn Arnold may have not only seen Oswald "behind the glass doors" a few minutes before the motorcade arrived (just as Campbell may actually have seen him in the storage closet a few minutes BEFORE the motorcade arrived!)...but it's quite likely she saw him immediately after the shots as well- standing, innocently, in his "corner" on the landing, with his camera.