Chris Cox

More on Webb from Ruppert site http://www.fromthewilderness.com/

So good to see the recent posts, from some new posters. Everyone's in shock. The story as big as it was must not be undermined by speculation and hearsay. I think Webb would want the story told as it happened. Support for any whistleblower is essential, I think there's some safety in numbers.

John S's last post makes me want to cry.

Tosh True about wanting to make contact to try to prevent such a thing, especially if it is suicide. So, he was continuing his research? You were a source for him? I wondered about that. I'm looking at the files on the ToshPlumlee site and can't find the specific AMSOG refs you cite but attached are the Hart Goodtimes letters to start with. I'll need to figure out how to post properly. Take care--I look forward to your reply.

In LA Times this morning, reporter who broke the CIA Drugs story for San Jose Mercury News, died of apparent suicide. Very tragic ending for a brave journalist. Webb authored "Dark Alliance: The CIA, the Contras, and the Crack Cocaine Explosion" and did a series of talks and interviews around the country. See links for more on Webb's investigative work. http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews...10399522.htm?1c http://www.parascope.com/mx/articles/garyw...yWebbSpeaks.htm

Hey James, nice to "see" you again. I always figured US and Cuba to be co-dependent, "star-crossed" lovers? Can't live with or without, you know? Love thine enemy-- if it works. I wonder if the industrialists ever wanted Castro dead or just their interests back? Isn't that all the world's about? Is Castro tolerated, accommodated or does it matter? Some of Kennedy's plan has worked. As we isolate Castro we effectively accommodate his version of Cuba. Anyway, when Tosh was here we talked about the early support of Castro he and men like my father were involved in. I read somewhere on web about a "symbiotic transfer of power" from Batista to Castro. Remember, FB did not kill Castro rather let him flee to Mexico-enter Prio. I always wondered if Castro would have been as generous to Batista had he been in Havana on the 2nd? Tho' the officials in DC seemed unaware, it made some sense to me, as I knew as a youngster (maybe Congress should have called up our families to testify) that support was being provided to anti-Batista forces, yet others (Pawley, ET Smith, ect) early on painted the man 'red' and hung on to a failing, grossly-unpopular regime. Alas, even Pawley knew the days were numbered and went to tell Fulgencio himself, friend to friend. In my own story, I saw my father as Left and then Right, supporting Revolution then suddenly not. John Wilson Hudson knows about this because he was there. CIA was there. USG: State, FBI, Customs all of the alphabets know this history. It is there on record and has somehow ended up in the JFK story by association and probably convenience. Pulling it apart for examination has been my personal quest, as you know. Plumlee tried to illustrate this with his own FBI file that was contrived seemingly to conceal the gunrunning incident of 1959 with another incident and yet one was made available to committee and another not. "Why?" he asked. A simple question with no takers, I'm afraid. I think an attempt has been made to conceal more than just the Plaza. When Downing went fishing he caught a very big one. The catch was a lot of stuff that would "fry" up a whole kettle of fish. He learned enough to garner support and yet it all went downhill and fast. The HSCA should be a topic here on it's own. Heck with the WC we know they all lied. I think Crile like Hinckle/Turner and Downing (all 70s researchers hot on the trail) and others were so very close but couldn't get much further because of the implications for all these agencies who hid it all and falsified what they couldn't hide. Like the Oswald Mexico and Russia incidents, the Wilson Hudson testimony, the Ruby visits to Havana, all of these get shunted away and they are very important. They lead to things that happened way before Dallas, when John F. was just a junior Senator. Hemming told me (I will tell this wrong I'm sure)proverb of Joe and John who served in some foreign land doing some clandestine deed where Joe says to John: "First thing I'm going to do is go home, buy a map and figure out where we've been."

Shanet, I spent some time at National Security Archives researching. It's a fine depository of documentation on this sort of thing. I encourage anyone to go there and look through these documents. It's open by appointment I believe. When I did my presentation in Dallas I included an excerpt from the Counter Insurgency (not sure if this is correct term) manual that came out of PBSuccess. The page I used was a hand-drawn diagram of how to enter a conference room and execute everyone present as a means to pin blame on someone else. I used it to illustrate how serious this stuff can get. Just a heads up on a great resource available to researchers.

The State Department serves the president. There were sympathizers that supported Castro in the early days in State but how does this explain, for instance, the weapons disappearing from US armories and delivered to the rebels? This was not an occasional thing, but a system involving many people, over a long time. The knowledge of this was not only at State Department, but USMil, CIA, FBI, Customs, etc. To hang the success of revolution only on State is leaving out a large part of the story, IMHO. And we should consider Castro was one who claimed power but there were other challengers to Batista such as the Second Front. The US was quite a base of support in the early days. Castro's child lived in NYC and was safely delivered after revolution's success was imminent. Many students began their support here in US at various universities working with students in Havana. Vilma Espin was a student at MIT. Many cities here didn't know about Cuba or Castro until it was all over. Geyer's book is one of the few books that covers this.

can't add other docs, my PC is flaking will try later

[deleted until further research is completed]

Thanks, so the FBI gets details they need for their files, covers the operations of other USG agencies, and the operative who provides the details gets discredited as a matter of course- the main issue of the files, the details get buried until investigators come around in 70s with HSCA and articles cropping up about CIA and operations (Like Hinckle Turner book,etc) is that correct?

Thank you Tosh I think this story has become larger than life. I hope the record is straight now or at least makes some things clearer to researchers. Each story has different POVs and together they complement each other. Good research listens to all accounts. My question for you is Did the Yacht Wars article in SF cover this in detail? Is it part of same story? Did they know this detail then? I still don't have a copy but am working on finding one.

file deleted pending research

Great posts fellows. I have a page of notes on this paper to trim down into readable questions, still rereading these two posts. This thread has only two posts, yet it has very much to do with circumstances surrounding the killing of a head of state. Isn't this odd? John mentioned the phenom. in another post. My first question right off the bat, is oh, I'll post it separately.

Tosh, you are right --info from FOIA files (FBI loved to keep files on people, the SACs kept busy) only as good as how complete they are. Especially 105 files were distributed among associated agencies. Your's shows that half the story reached the congressional investigators. Of course Hoover is in here because he controlled info going to all the key investigations, from his FBI. Too bad we file FOIAs and expect some due process but there are some docs that slip through and reveal the unexpected. Your files illustrate this as do mine. My files on my father clearly show that CIA, Customs, INS, Border Patrol, Military all signed off , all cc'd on stuff yet I'm told the same pat, "No records exist." NARA has some of the story and I credit those who pushed for more boxes to be opened.

Thanks for posting this detail, John. Howard's work lives on IMHO. Every president since has followed the accomodation plan. It may not look like Kennedy's plan but it exists today. I asked a Cuban revolutionary once: "What happened to the revolution?" "Why do you think the promises of Castro or Washington have never been fulfilled?" His wife chimed in that Cuban people after fleeing the anarchy in 1959, thought they'd return in a few weeks to a settled place. Each year the expectation faded. The leaders in both countries have learned to get along. Today Castro fights with the greenback, W fights with the Americans sneaking to Cuba.

Suffice it to say, and I'm not disagreeing with you, each Prez comes with his baggage. He inherits more with the office. There's so much imperfection and deceit. DC can be the WC of politics and by that I mean toilet. Factions at Pentagon, the icons of wealth and their lapdogs all pulling for favors. This carries over. What a bind for any man trying to lead and push policy. I'm not as studied as you on this topic of Eisenhower but I see him as imperfect as was JFK. Imperfection is human, all of them made big errors in judgment. JFK came and went too soon for his objectives. IMO, RFK's aspirations after 1963, is an illustration of a man who saw it, had a role in it, cross-examined the legacy and began to change. He picked himself up and knowing grave indecency in DC, he focused on the future after losing John and Martin. I remember seeing a tape of LBJ handing Bobby a load of pens ("here go take these to your brats") during the Civil Rights Act signing. RFK skulked away-- it was painful to watch. He knew, LBJ knew and it was DC politics after all. This environment we can observe but not truly understand as participants. Our nation was a mess; LBJ was like Nixon after the bombing of Cambodia or Kent State, feebly talking to the "younger generation." All this and Cuba and Dallas too.

The more I know about Eisenhower the more I respect his resolve. He knew what he was up against and he spelled it out for his successors. He wanted plausible deniability like Kennedy but he respected the office of the commander in chief, IMO. I heard a story at COPA of Lemay puffing a cigar at the autopsy. One of the examiners approached him and told him to respect the dead president, and stub the stogie. The source of the story (not sure who) may have fabricated it, not sure if Lemay put it out or puffed on. It's a good metaphor, true or not, to whom JFK was facing after President Eisenhower made his fears known.

Thanks Tosh, nice thing to say. I'm sure if Paul were here today he'd slap you on the back and whisper to me: "What the hell are you doing with THIS guy?" (wink) I'll get back to my story later. Have some inspired thoughts from this conference here. Just taking this all in. Good stuff. Hope everyone got to see "Investigating History" last night on History Channel. The program made a few errors, but one was bad. It said something like: "...and the ARRB is no longer functioning today...." The ARRB is still functioning-- in DC in the archives of Assassination Archives and Research Center and on the History Matters website. It functions every time a researcher opens a box at NARA II archives stamped JFK Act. We wouldn't be nearly as close, in our analysis without our champions, without the work of some good people, even USG people--Gasp! As many rotten people in the deaths of John, Martin and Bobby, were good people. Many now gone. Lest we forget, they never believed one word of the "official" story. I like to think of them on the 22nd with Kennedy, not the shady “unknowns” of Dealy Plaza.

Well done, Tosh! Thanks for being here to tell your story. C

Good work, Tim. Your analysis well presented. Have to read it a few times to pose any q's for you. Glad you went the distance. The photo figs. are excellent.

Good post John. This thread's going somewhere. In those LBJ tapes also is the Jenkins matter. It's very uncomfortable to listen to. Wasn't he caught in mens bathroom with another? Someone destroyed Jenkins. Was it Hoover just getting more blackmail material for his bank of dirty trix or was Jenkins not "with the program?"

And of other importance the shield laws. A day ago I didn't give it much thought, but reporters will be arrested and constitutional rights at risk in my country. See link here: http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/news.aspx?id=14401 A move to deny confidentiality to sources will kill independent investigations. Big Brother is upon us. I hope the media will transcend outrage and get busy and spend some of their bucks on stopping this sweeping trend. This forum knows the importance of independent investigation, and Media shouldn't be forced informants for the government.

Did I miss Deadly Secrets Hinckle Turner and Peter Dale Scott's Deep Politics on this list? Both are "must reads" in my book

Well Loran has figured in the Paul Hughes story. There's some connection but I don't know what to ask for in your marvelous archives. Since your gun/Hall photo post, that man scares me. Still I'd like to talk to him if you have contact, with Hall I mean. I believe Hall was involved in the Nicaraguan invasion plot in Havana, maybe in my NARA stuff, hence the arrest and Hall's Trescornia detention. "The Tale of Tom Dunkin" would make a lively topic for the online conf. here, James. Got anything for Wim on Cobb? I don't know where to begin. I've wondered about Lloyd too, but have nothing on this.