Chris Cox

And I thought mine was messy, sheesh. Has anyone read this book? In the book Ruth and Mike's daughter is described as a wiccan. She like her grandfather is into the mystical. I don't recall if there's Masonic influence in that family, does anyone know this? I suspect there is from the Naushon historical connections. Anyway Daughter Paine suffers severe asthma, allergies or something that flares up when she's around her mother. That daughter reacts physiologically to her mother is interesting. My research focuses on the "kids" of operators more so I'm very interested in this daughter's accounts if anyone knows of intervus she may have given. What made her so angry, what does she think is the truth about her own parents? What were her childhood impressions of the madness of that year at her house? What does daughter remember of LHO family? Does she know his daughters and what they feel? Tim's DPQ article he posted is interesting but the gist of that article seems to show Ruth as deliberately trapped into an exposure she doesn't wish. She retreats as expected anyone CIA or not would do when approached by a mob. For this reason I don't belive supoenas are a tool to get at the truth. A court order to appear is hostile technique that I've found doesn't necessarily yield truth. No, Ruth and Michael Paine have to come to this themselves. They have to want to know what really happened to them. The book left me feeling that they don't really know or only know small part of the big pix. This seems more like CIA (and her comment that one need look to LIFE mag for all you need to know) influence than Ruth dabbling with her own mystique in Nicaragua. Perhaps she was playing her associates. Her agent type behavior mentioned in DPQ article, seems a bit too obvious for any real spy. Her earlier interviews and what has been said of her behavior post assassination indicates she enjoyed her notoriety somewhat.

well you hit the intelligence nail on the head. Indy but not really. So Morales had a big heart. I guess these are the people needed in other aspects of military service. Seriously tho' it is interesting how this acceptance rejection thing goes. How these fellows try and finally make the cut. Is it a test, like "show us what you can do first?" Some pre-enlist, some enter via ops and are made officers at sight. Some, perhaps Morales are too good to waste on a battlefield. The MO of this sorting is very interesting. Thanks.

James I'm reminded of an article I read on web few years ago about the restaurant where Morales hung out. It was an Arizona? article more about the restaurant and his relationship with the family but hinted at his background. Perhaps it was his obit. Maybe you have this. Anyway I'm interested in his rejection in '44, what were the grounds for this, any details? Thx

Oh brother, Reagan takes credit for tearing down the wall, again. Like the rest of the world had nothing to do with it. Reagan like LBJ was in right place at right time in history. Listening to tapes, for example, between LBJ and Georgia Senator Russell one can see they made the civil rights thing go for political reasons, not moral conscience. King wouldn't "go away." LBJ begs his friends then signs the legislation while a dejected Bobby looks on. Watch that piece of film on this event. Very telling IMO. Kennedys at the behest of the people, King and the black leaders who would not be told to "wait", pioneered this legislation. JFK watched his own man injured on the Freedom Ride by hateful cops and citizens. On a WH tv he saw with his staff that the unrest that would continue if his administration failed to act. LBJ swooped up the credit Sagely, King said after death of JFK: "I won't live to see my 40th birthday" and he died at 39. LBJ signed in the midst of the lowest point of 20th century history in this country. All he had to do at that point was hand out the pens.

ah, John don't rely on those deathbed confessions as I've mentioned, just a set up for disappointment. Researchers may have to rely on what's published. "Mrs. Paine's Garage" should be mentioned here. It's a little book a LNer-ish book, but something strange happens in the course of telling Ruth's story. The author admits that Michael may have more to say that he zigzagged around in first place. He saw the backyard photos in LHO apartment and mentioned something was "wierd" about LHO to a co-worker or some such. Perhaps this book is Ruth's last jab at her husband at large, but it is compelling. Neither may know the other in this mess, one is lead to belive. The Paines were a nouveau couple. Like the DeMorenschildts, not at all "regular" 1950s Americans. That is a clue to their involvement, witting or un-witting. These "outsiders" had the exposure that perhaps made them great "insiders." From the book you'll see that Ruth was unconventional. She taught Russian during the cold war and wished to go to USSR. What a person to connect the returning Oswalds to. Michael worked in military intel projects--a frustrated inventor. Both had a deep lineage. Ruth travelled from Naushon Island (famous in its own right) to meet the next chapter in her life with Oswald. Later, she left Michael and travelled by sailboat on the intracoastal with her kids. A Bohemiana to an extent. Not a victim at all but a strong woman while Michael tries to work out his life and trade in counterculture crafts. The book is a good glimpse at a couple that had only a part in the mission of LHO. It is what they know.

Tim, here’s my coffee-fueled two cents in response to your posts. Good to hear you are talking to GPH. He and Tosh have been a great help to me. I never know what to make of all the fascinating stuff I hear. Digesting takes a while, no? No matter who “did it” in Dallas, the gun experts on this forum (Carrier and others) have me convinced of the stupidity of the lone gunman scenario. Snipers near and far don’t believe it either—I’m with the experts. I stood in the window at Sixth Floor Museum and it looked like a long shot to me, one guy, crappy weapon... But I know nothing of guns. We know Dallas FBI knew of LHO-- Shanley, Hosty or whomever-LHO was a tailed man. LHO was in midst of something FBI wanted to know about and had an inkling. FBI knew so much about Castro ops by then. Our families have collected reams to prove it. We knew firsthand of the counterrev. activities. Everybody knew Kennedy was being stalked. Kennedy knew himself. A brave fellow to go to Dallas (earlier facing off in Miami) in ’63 he was a leader. I wish he had worn that hat the Texans gave him. Perhaps it would have saved his life, but JFK said he’d wear it “next time.” CIA knew of LHO in Russia and beyond. At home, Joannides is close to the NO incident and a powerhouse of exiles. He is CIAs man among others in exile community. Joannides later reports to duty for the HSCA along with Billings and Life who tucked away Zapruder film for all those years. Facts all and just part of story. The Military knew LHO. They had all his records. Gerry has him at Odio’s (and in California around Cubans) inquiring about her dad, Castro’s prisoner and exile hero. Tosh places LHO at an airfield in Texas and at Nags Head counterintelligence training. LHO’s in HI with Roscoe if I’m not mistaken from Tosh’s account. LHO is from base at Atsugi with minor clearances. Newman and Melanson place LHO smack in US intelligence. Paines and their relationship to Russian and US Intel community notwithstanding, LHO was everywhere you could say. A real intelligence genius, I think. In some ways he was truly a “lone” operator, going rather bravely to his grave giving only a hint of his involvement. Tosh and Gerry both agree I think that there were operations in Dallas going on concurrent to assassination. The US was not done dealing with Castro. Men that died like my father, many others BOPs vets, and among them Rorke and Sullivan, Swanner/Thompson were precursor of things to come. Add the strange death of Lisa Howard the handpicked go between with Atwood. Walt Brown has me convinced that there was ongoing operation in the works. Cuba was definitely a “Line in the Sand” in 1963. CIA and its LHO had a Mexico Story and the Cuba connection and some strange “Russian” photographed coming out of embassy. It was a bind CIA found itself in when the tracing was afoot, congress went snooping. The CIA station chief Win Scott had his memoirs confiscated by Angleton while a grieving family looks on. Too much there to be ignored. June Cobb and Juan Orta are figures in Havana and Mexico City. Duran all of this is not to be taken lightly in intelligence part of investigation. LHO didn’t actually defect in Russia. Try as he did, his passport was returned and he came home with a stipend and a pretty Russian with her own intelligence story. He was given connections to make in US before he left. He was there on the heels of some very interesting political events: the Penkovsky incident and Powers shoot down. He resurfaces among the next hotspot in US political events? The dog doesn’t hunt and the glove doesn’t fit. After the criminal investigation was cut short by the mobster Cuban operator Ruby. The cover up was in place more to protecting missions and methods I think. US was still hot on the Castro trail and Kennedy’s were in it too. It didn’t go away in 1959 post Castro victory but deepened in Washington. This is the confusion in the murder of Kennedy IMHO. Perhaps the cover up is the key to understanding the US offical involvement in Dealey. What was happening in covert operations involving the Kennedys at the time? Kennedy’s secret meetings with Castro and such? The Kennedy brothers were players as they were victims in the end of a dangerous deal. Perhaps in understanding the records we have to accept CIA found itself revealing too much relating to all this Dallas/Cuba stuff that others like the Joannides FOIA case are still fighting to reveal. Truly self-preserving on intelligence part. About James photo of “Conein and GPH.” What does Gerry say to this?

Read Albert "Buck" Persons book on Bay of Pigs. An obscure little paperback, but can be found. He mentions a "Jake and Hoyt" who came to recruit out of the Alabama Air Guard. Interesting read from a pilot who was there.

You make a marvelous point John. The highest notch on the totem is money. What is expedient to that end is acceptable to anyone who has tasted gold. End justifies means. The Delano family got rich from dealing dope to the Chinese. Most in this country did some dirty dealing to get where they are. Have we learned nothing from current events? Who wins in war? In coups? Money is the driving force behind political events. Those close to the source can pick and choose.

Shanet, just curious you bought something at auction? You drink beer out of? What kind of beer? That's important. Just kidding. I bought a Frank Snepp book at a library sale once. I had just spoken to a friend of his and thought, hey here's a book for 50 cents. I opened it at home and out flew four pix of old photos from Vietnam. Heads on pikes and such, very heinous. I wonder if I bought someone's bad memories . Their final solution to the hell they fathomed after reading Snepp's book.

My two cent digression Read pgs 142-44 in Turner’s Rearview Mirror, for his recent writing on EDV and other fascinating stories. A rivetting read. Absolutely, Tim. History works both ways. Neither country wants to air their dirty laundry in public domain. Those of us piecing together family stories are testament to this. No help forthcoming from either the Hill or Havana. You’d think each country would enjoy the opportunity to embarrass the other, but not so! Sort of like “pulling teeth” but we’re not even allowed in the dentist’s office—ha! The accommodation plan is secure and we are left to wonder how Castro has remained so vital in all of it. So much death on both sides and this is the result. Only Cuesta could tell his side and he’s gone. Perhaps a deal was made, purely fabricated or it’s all true and I’m mistaken. I tend to concur with Gordon's position. It seems too simple, suspicious, years later with a willing audience to go to a conference and have the beans spilled about confessions-- esp. when the parties Cuesta and Escalante are rooted in intelligence. Both are liars “by trade.” Due respects to those in this business, it is a fact of the work. Others I’ve talked to who attended Nassau are of two minds on this Cuesta issue. So Tony gets a street named after him near the dog track, a local Miami hero and Escalante gets a little demotion from Fidel as I understand it. Paul Wolf has done some fabulous research on the murder of Colombia’s “JFK” Gaitan. He’s included the “confession” of John Mepples Espirrito’s (US intel operator) involvement therein. Gloria, Gaitan’s daughter was present in Cuba when officials taped the confession. Hardliners in US would loved to pin the death on Fidel who met with Rafael del Pino and Gaitan shortly before. Castro beat them to the punch you could say. Just food for thought on this issue of confession.

Lawrence Teeter, I think.

Moody links- Lily M doc is here: http://www.icdc.com/~paulwolf/gringosinthe...erevolution.htm http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~c...rbarrel/Oz.html

thank you thank you, James he's been on my mind lately We are psychic twins I swear. Clarence Moody is a quandary. He owned the "Lily M" named after his wife. This was a boat used in counterrev. op. It's mentioned in some article that escapes me now, perhaps "Yacht Wars" but not sure. I'll look for article. I have a bit on him from NARA. He has the same last name as the true name of the guy who disappeared with my dad. No family connection has come up, alas. But he was constantly calling the radio program (can't recall the prgm) talking up the counterrev activities in Miami. He was a man of action. This is an interesting fellow, I recall he was crippled in a chair having suffered a WWII trauma. He was of officer rank. Hope more comes of your request. I think that's all I got on him.

Have to jump in here, Tim. My two cents on Wilson is that he was no meager source of info. He was a darn good one that may have slipped away, no thanks to our FBI. The FBI wasn't ignorant of the implications I believe. It's hard to believe with so much manpower this could occur in the investigation of murder of US Pres. Wilson was in detention after being busted with my father, Joe Bardor, Efren Picardo and John Spiritto in 1959. Spiritto a very interesting intelligence contact and Wilson were working together. They are cross-refed in NARA with the event they were jailed for. A bit more on who Wilson is can be found at NARA. From a conversation with Hemming I recently had, Lucayo was behind a mission to invade Nicaragua. It was planned at the house in Havana where I lived with my father briefly in 1959. There's some circumstantial stuff that indicates it could have been a intelligence ploy to show Castro was exporting his Communist regime. This would occur in the heat of a growing counterrev in Cuba, esp. in the capital. Gerry offered me compelling information on this event I have yet to research. The other possibility is that it was hatched fully in the Nicaragua camp but there was US influence. All that aside, I'm illustrating just one incident among many that seems to vanish- slip between the cracks of any decent investigation. Cuban operations cannot be ignored in the study of JFK, of course but this source would have put Ruby in Havana, where he surely had been. Ruby was dealing stuff to Castro and wanted Morgan to help him do this, along with many other opportunists of the time, according to another conversation I had with Gerry. Perhaps he can post on this. Anything you can add to the mysterious Wilson much appreciated.

I'm a little caught off guard, here. I concur with Peter. Tosh has always backed up what he says to me with some documentation. His help with aviation has been incredible. Both he and Gerry have been a great help to me in researching my father and early Cuba stuff. As I said before months ago here, Tosh has proven his willingness to share his ops background. It's been aired on US television and in print. Those outlets would all do investigations first I assume. Sen. Gary Hart was interested and worked with Tosh, US congressional committee as well. Iran Contra ops were made a little clearer in the Kerry camp, with testimony from guys like Tosh. This say a lot for the man. I would always encourage openness with these sources, we have alot to learn.

Thank you John. Take a walk down presidential assassination alley and its a familiar path. John Wilkes Booth seems the mold used for LHO. All alone but not really. Wise words from Mae Brussell: A coup d'etat, planned and financed in the U.S., would be informative to study as a protection against identical possibilities in this country.

Good info, Ed. I guess the rule here is: follow the money or follow the rent receipts

thanks for all the links, John Lobster has been one of those sources I've never been able to locate, but see all the time ex.- in the PIR references. Is there a source where we can get back copies of Lobster or a subscription service offered by Ramsay directly?

Thanks Larry. Yeah, when I said "mexican" I meant like Morales a Mex/American from here, being in D that day as opposed to Cuban. You're right just a small detail.

John or anybody. Would appreciate greatly full Bernstein article if anyone has a pdf or knows where on web it is. Thanks.

Please see attachment for what can be done.

A fifty must be torn to get rid of the bad luck. I'd bet five and cry if I lost it, but I'm cheap. This is Lutz you think? There was a lawsuit from Hall over this? love to see the details of that claim. Source of this info please, very interesting James. Oh, and why would you be surprised that he was referring to Rip? Perhaps Tim Gratz has Lots o Lutz info for us? Tim, you are down there, this is a keys article--your thoughts?

well, Larry I have to get your book. Email me details on ordering and I'll do that this week. I have no decent excuse-ha. My shelves are brimming but I'm I'm sure I'll be enlightened and can catch up on some things I've missed. I'd like the most current version as you were last working on errata sheets. Is this now complete? My thoughts on this Mexican issue is your latter option: that if the description came from Odio she would be aware of mexican-ness because there was Spanish spoken that day. Cubans would know a non-Cuban. The physical attributes clothes and such would be secondary, IMHO, but does add more clues to the person. Language, dialect would be the big test. Size and hairiness aside I tend to believe that when someone calls a key character Mexican they know this from speaking to them, and picking up on the nuances and mannerisms, or knowing firsthand the persons origins, without that info, largely from language. My two cents of course. I'm off subject, where the heck were we? (wink)

Hi, Larry. This is interesting to me--the identifying someone as "Mexican." I called my son in law who is Mexican and asked him to explain to me how someone could be called Mexican, when we know that in Mexico there are many skin colors and backgrounds, as anyone who lives out west would agree. Many Germans settled there and many parts of Latin America as in Cuba would have blonds with blue eyes. Mestizo would be a Mexican Indian lineage, a dark Mexican, Mullato a black and white Mexican, etc. So, if someone identifies someone as a "big hairy Mexican" or whatnot, the assumption is that this person would have some notion of what a Mexican is. Via their language and behaviors. My Spanish teacher would admonish me, but from my experience, Latin Americans do consider Mexicans uniquely, esp in mannerisms and in language. Someone who spoke Spanish labeled this man "Mexican" or someone who knew the distinction firsthand, or someone who knew this man was in fact Mexican. Do you get the gist of my point? Sorry to ramble.

I have to chuckle as I can't see anything LIFE was publishing was "agenda free" but that's just me. CD Jackson's famous line: "It fell to LIFE to do what LIFE does best." sticks out in my mind. A recent interview of Billings has him noting that LIFE liked pictures best. The photojournalism was powerful. Dulles said we don't read (between the lines?) and IMHO LIFE took up the slack in case he was right. Pictures tell the story and that's what we saw on our coffee tables the world over. In honor of MLK today, I'll point to the LIFE article of JE Ray, the supposed assassin. When we look at the school pix of Ray (was it the cover of that issue?) our eye is on an angry looking young boy, but this is not Ray. MLK's family never bought it and I tend to defer to their wisdom.